Prevailing opinion in Jan 2016 was Tom Coughlin should go

where the Giants erred was not letting both TC and Reese go at the same time and doing the overhaul they did this year.

Basically, they made TC the fall guy, and after the debacle last year it was exposed that TC may have been part of the problem, but the issues ran far deeper.

I would've liked him to stay in the organization. Reese should've gone, but I don't really know if Coughlin should've been made the GM or given some other role.

And only swept off the front porch.

i did want him fired as coach though and i think the second superbowl let him have a couple extra years...

wanted nothing to do with mcadoo, did not look like a head coach to me and his 2nd year you could tell he let the success of 11 and 5 get to his head

2016 with Coughlin as coach and that defense.

I've always felt the offensive line was to blame for all of our woes.

Coughlin should have been able to coach it out another year or two and then kick upstairs. We would be better for it.

but I think I would put more emphasis on the point, that in everybody's head coaching career, you're done. And he was done as a HC.

Whether he would've/should've been promoted to GM is tough for any of us to opine. I would want to know more about his input on our previous drafts before I made a determination as to his talent evaluation ability.

Glad he was here for 2 nice runs though...

Kept Reese too long
Keeping Eli too long.

Mara can't let go.

is that TC mismanaged several games that year, particularly screwing up clock management late in games. That cost the team some wins. I felt he could no longer be relied on to coach at a high level. As for promoting him to GM, I can't say if he had the skill needed to evaluate players well enough to succeed there.

In comment 14064950 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

where the Giants erred was not letting both TC and Reese go at the same time and doing the overhaul they did this year. Basically, they made TC the fall guy, and after the debacle last year it was exposed that TC may have been part of the problem, but the issues ran far deeper.

In hindsight I agree with this. I don't think the Giants necessarily made TC the fall guy, but figured given his age it was time to move on, and put Reese on notice should the team continue to struggle.

In hindsight, they should have dismissed both of them. No personnel decisions were made in a vacuum, the two of them contributed to a team that underperformed for some time.

And to be completely honest, I don't think the level of change that many believe occurred around here ever happened. Gettleman was brought back, most of the scouts retained. Not the type of purge that should have been expected given the results, which is why I'm not particularly optimistic for the coming season.

The Giants have a hard time letting go of the past.

By keeping Reese and firing Coughlin.

While I would have been OK just firing Reese & Ross, the best move probably would have been a complete house cleaning.

But a couple of things happened. If you win a couple os Super Bowls in the salary cap era eventually you are going to have to completely remake your team. This was pretty much what happened between 2012-2015 and guys like Nicks , Cruz, Bradshaw, Tuck, etc. needed to be replaced sooner than expected. We really didn't have the funds or ability to start remaking our team until 2016, the year after he was gone. That was the year we brought in Snacks, OV, and JJ.

I also think Coughlin made some poor coordinator hires. Maybe that should have been on Reese too but the coordinators were sub-par. I think if Coughlin had stayed he would have turned things around eventually. I also think if he was given autonomy he would have focused more on rebuilding the trenches...something we got away from at his end and through the CrapAdoo era.

Im just happy to have two coaches(defensive and offensive) that are respected around the league and have a reputation for coming up with intelligent schemes. Thats going to make a world of difference this year. Shurmer/Gettleman seem to have a little of that Coughlin attitude as well.

I just remember feeling like the whole thing had run its course. But the organization is a little hesitant on sweeping change and it essentially cost them 2 seasons.

TC still has a great vision for how to structure a team. I agree with Fats that the problem was letting Reese stay and shedding TC.

The revolving door of coordinators and the offensive scheme change at the end of TC's tenure was the mistake. You had what appeared to be competing philosophies. This year's team built on Gettleman's vision feels more like a TC team. The difference is I feel better about Shurmur's scheme.

The team could be in a similar place right now had they dropped Reese, hired TC to a similar role, and hired Shurmur. I just don't think Reese was capable of succeeding without TC. Clearly, TC has proven he can build a team without Reese. He's done it in Jacksonville twice, and regardless of what percentage you want to put on it, he did it in NY.

In all 3 cases, it looks like TC was the common denominator. Reese played a role, but TC was the backbone.

In comment 14064954 mattlawson said:

Quote:

And only swept off the front porch.

Perfectly said.

...a winning solution given the severity of the problems both with the roster and the other front office members (i.e. GM and Dir of Scouting).

Given his age and 3 straight lousy years I can't blame ownership for wanting to turn the position over before going on a spending spree in FA to replace what talent they'd failed to accumulate in the draft over the past 5-6 years. (and if he was still intent on coaching it makes the transition to GM scenario moot). While my sentiment says I'd like to have seen him given another chance with an opportunity to rebuild with all that cap space we had - my gut agrees with Fatman that the best course may have been to do a complete house cleaning.

But that being said - you can only hire from the pool of GMs that are available and I don't specifically recall what GM candidates were there after '16.

Reese definitely should have gone too. Reese should have been booted years before.

In comment 14064969 12aob said:

Quote:

is that TC mismanaged several games that year, particularly screwing up clock management late in games. That cost the team some wins. I felt he could no longer be relied on to coach at a high level. As for promoting him to GM, I can't say if he had the skill needed to evaluate players well enough to succeed there.

Agree 100%.

But I think it’s fair to say he was losing his fastball when it came to in game decisions. Would have loved to see him stay with the Giants in a team president role as he has now with Jax. But I suspect he has too much pride to have accepted getting quasi-fired/pushes upstairs with the Giants. I think he’s probably still pretty raw about how his departure went down.

I agree that Reese and Ross should have been out too at the time.

but I think he would have been outstanding being in control of building the team. He was the driving force building the Jags so quickly in when they were an expansion team in ‘94. And he’s doing it again now.

I think he’s a very, very good judge of talent...arguably the best I’ve ever seen at identifying WR talent.

In comment 14064958 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

2016 with Coughlin as coach and that defense. I've always felt the offensive line was to blame for all of our woes. Coughlin should have been able to coach it out another year or two and then kick upstairs. We would be better for it.

I disagree. As bad as he was with almost everything, McAdoo did a very good job managing those games to close wins. That team wasn’t great and I don’t think Coughlin would have gotten that team to 11 wins. Just my opinion.

It was time for TC ago go but they should have cleaned house. Half measures cost them dearly.

Personally, I think he and Reese clashed when it came to personnel decisions and Reese often got his way because he was in charge.

Coughlin is as much a legend as anyone else in Giants history as far as I’m concerned and its kind of bittersweet to see him doing so well some place else, but I wanted him and Reese both gone in back then and I think thats where Mara went wrong.

And have essentially the role he has now with Jacksonville.

Of course, how do you convince a quality Head Coach it’s the right job for them when you have your immediate predecessor and the MAN sitting in a booth above you every week.

what has he done? for the most part their core and best players were there before he got there...

a person that gets very slighted is marrone

That Coughlin should go. He was criticized unmercifully for in game decisions in which I felt he was trying to do everything and anything to get something out of nothing.

I never felt that Coughlin lost his fast ball or forgot to coach. Coughlins biggest issue was loyalty. He was always extremely loyal to his coaches to a fault.

The problem in my opinion was personnel and injuries. We could not replace the aging players on the offensive line and that was on Reese and Marc Ross.

I did not like that Coughlin was made the scapegoat and if changes were going to be made, it should have been wholesale. The half ass attempts is what got us here.

The offensive scheme was the issue (not an aging offensive line) so we fire gilbride and bring in mcadoo

It's the head coach so we fire him and hire mcadoo

the defense is the problem (not Jerry reese) and we go on a free agency spending spree

It went on and on, but they failed to see the problem had more to do with the personnel than it did with the coaches or scheme.

It took them 5 years to figure it out, but we got here and I hope that Mara really learned from this experience and we never see a repeat.

Gettleman and shurmur have been a breath of fresh air and I'm happy that they are putting their stamp on this team

yet refuse to believe he had any input on personnel.

Can't have it both ways. After Flowers was drafted, he was gushing (including contradicting Reese, who claimed Flowers could play at either guard or tackle by insisting he was an LT).

He didn't sit through all those combines with his clipboard and timer so that he could be told 'sorry coach, we don't care what you think.'

I'm sure there were times where he made decisions that others didn't agree with and vice versa, and it sure looked at times like they weren't on the same page. But to sit here and think he wasn't partly responsible for that mess of a roster is laughable.

TC as president, Gettleman as GM, and Shurmur as HC. With the benefit of hindsight, that's my cake and eat it to scenario.

being relieved of his duties as HC but would take a spot in the FO.

I can't blame him either - would any of you do that?

In comment 14064997 mako J said:

Quote:

TC as president, Gettleman as GM, and Shurmur as HC. With the benefit of hindsight, that's my cake and eat it to scenario.

From listening to Gettleman, he loved Coughlin (I think Gettleman gets a long with just about anyone), but Gettleman believed in Coughlins coaching philosophy. The same with parcells. Gettleman will often reference Coughlin and parcells in his thoughts on how to construct a team. The types of players and such

anymore with OBJ and losing was starting to be yearly. The Giants should have gotten rid of Eli, TC, and Reese that year and today we would be in much better place.

was his attention to detail. Yet, how many games did the Giants show up and look unprepared at the beginning of the game, especially on offense?

In comment 14064992 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

what has he done? for the most part their core and best players were there before he got there... a person that gets very slighted is marrone

He signed Calais Campbell, traded for Marcelo Dareus, signed Barry Church, drafted Fournette, drafted Cam Robinson...

That’s a fairly good group of contributors...no?

Coughlin only went upstairs because there wasn't an opportunity on the sideline.

He wasn't ever going give the up the reigns, he's not that kind of guy, and it's what made him a great coach.

Mara hopefully has learned the lesson that there are no happy endings for guys as competitive as Coughlin, Reese, and eventually Manning.

When they are done, you just pull the band-aid and move forward.

In comment 14064964 bluepepper said:

Quote:

Kept Reese too long Keeping Eli too long. Mara can't let go.

Lot of truth to this. The Giants' championship window opened in 2005 and closed in 2012 - the 0-6 start in 2013 should've hammered that point home. We've been clinging to the past with half measures ever since.

but the best football man in the organization with the most experience and proven record. I think he would have gladly excerpted the GM job, Jerry should have been the guy that took the fall, his drafts and free agency moves we really weak. I think Tom has many years left as a quality GM. Jacksonville will be a force to deal with for years to come and he will be the driving force.

I think he could have gone a lot further in the playoffs.

He constantly put demands on the players but none on himself.

He was a very good coach all week except the three hours during the game. His time management at the end of the second Patriots SB game was an embarrassment.

I will always believe that Eli dragged TC's sorry butt to both those SBs.

In comment 14065005 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

In comment 14064964 bluepepper said: Quote: Kept Reese too long Keeping Eli too long. Mara can't let go. Lot of truth to this. The Giants' championship window opened in 2005 and closed in 2012 - the 0-6 start in 2013 should've hammered that point home. We've been clinging to the past with half measures ever since.

Agreed on all accounts, and unfortunately I think the half measures continue. This season will be very telling as to who have been the culprits in this organization for 5 of the past 6 seasons. Excuses are all but gone for certain players and the organization has invested a lot to “get one more run” out of these players. My personal opinion is all the Giants did this year was kick a true rebuild down the road 3 seaons.

#1- Tom Coughlin was finished as a HC
#2- Jerry Reese should have been fired as a HC
#3- The Giants should have hired Doug Marrone

I wouldn’t have been opposed to moving TC in as GM to replace Reese.

I thought TC's time had come and gone. I never considered him as GM because I thought he would have wanted to coach and/or I didn't know how many decisions he made instead of Reese.

TC an Reese are welcome any time. Obviously TC can't be the GM and Reese we don't want. But nothing has changed for me how I was thinking back then.

As of today, sure I'd like TC as a GM. But that's obviously hindsight. I'm concerned with our new GM. Hopefully that concern will turn into nothing and we'll do great.

not the coaching, Tom didn't forget how to coach but the front office really let him down. Hes a great coach but not a miracle worker. Tom took the fall because of his age, it was a huge mistake by John Mara. I do have hope in Gettleman / Schurmer might be a good combo.

In comment 14064950 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

where the Giants erred was not letting both TC and Reese go at the same time and doing the overhaul they did this year. Basically, they made TC the fall guy, and after the debacle last year it was exposed that TC may have been part of the problem, but the issues ran far deeper.

Totally, 100% agree and obviously right in hindsight. Coughlin AND Reese should've gone.

Quote:

That Coughlin should go.

Me neither. He had little to work with his last few years.

I guess we were outliers.

2016 was the first complete roster we'd had in years. Clearly McAdoo was not the answer. I think they have a good tandem now though.

he would have happily given up the HC job to be GM or president are out of your heads. Where is the evidence he would have wanted that?

In comment 14065023 exiled said:

Quote:

Quote: That Coughlin should go. Me neither. He had little to work with his last few years. I guess we were outliers.

That's partially true, but he had many coaching gaffes that ended up costing us. I still don't know how he could've blown some of the games he did (the Miracle at the Meadowlands II comes to mind. I was at that game).

the BBI'rs who were so adamant about getting rid of TC to solve all our problems aren't about to admit that they were undoubtedly and hilariously wrong-headed. At best, you are going to get the "both he and Reese should have been canned." which is cop-out bullshit. No matter: let bygones be bygones; no one should expect a bunch of amateurs on the outside to discern all.

The people on the inside, however, are a different story. A blind man could see there was nothing to choose from with personnel. We had seasons without a competent safety, seasons with no running backs, seasons with no receivers, no functional tight ends, seasons with no decent o-linemen, not one competent linebacker, good players allowed to walk, horrendous drafts. All of the evidence pointed to the GM suite. It is little wonder Coughlin was incredulous about Reese staying. TC did a great job getting 6 wins and competitive games out of the dreck the personnel people furnished.

None of this had to happen. Mara committed multiple blunders: he listened to Reese's serial excuses when anyone with a brain could see the personnel issues, he spent $100 million anyway to buck up the GM and try and prove he didn't just fire the only competent guy in the organization, he let TC take the blame for everything, he failed to pursuade Coughlin to move up to VP of football operations (which of course would have meant stepping aside and just being an owner), and then the icing on the cake, hired Bozo the Clown as head coach.

So, forgive those not brimming over with optimism about the owners' judgment this time around. Let's see it on the field.

2013. That season was the previous era's team hitting bottom. Unfortunately, Mara identified McAdoo as the next coach so they went into a holding pattern until they thought he was ready. They have been wasting their window with Eli since then.

Bon Voyage Jerry

and if possible,keep Tom as GM

No need to discuss what we ended up with,but that's what I think should have happened

since the Giants let him go, and, at the end, the Giants were losing some games because of his decisions.

Absolutely, but that's not saying much. I understand why many look at the Coughlin Years with rose-colored glasses, but he had some absolutely putrid, inexcusable losses here.