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New York Giants-Jacksonville Jaguars Post-Game Discussion

Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/9/2018 3:52 pm
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RE: Unfortunateky, they're stuck with Flowers  
dpinzow : 9/9/2018 4:25 pm : link
In comment 14067448 micky said:
Quote:
Barring injury til next year

Get used to it


No they're not, they could always play Wheeler or sign someone else
My Takeaways  
lax counsel : 9/9/2018 4:25 pm : link
Pros
-defense looked very good
-Eli Apple, to his credit looked very good
- Barkley shows fairly well, most of his stats on one run.
-I like all of the defensive looks from Bettcher.

Cons
- game number 34 in a row under 30 points
-offense, for the most part still putrid, different names same result
- o line still pretty bad, although Eli got more time today then last year, not much but definitely more
- Eli continuing to show dimisnhed skills throwing the ball downfield. I’m not referring to the times when he’s under pressure, I’m talking about all the inconsistency on where the ball is delivered.
- coaching changed , still looks like mcadoo, terrible play calling down the stretch

I think we’re going to see a lot of these types of games. No one fears or respects the giants passing game, but we ll see one or two Barkley runs that makes everyone will go wild in a losing effort. These are the things that all of the overhaul fans feared, and they feared their ugly heads today.

Show me a line that can block with consistency. Show me a qb that doesn’t feel phantom pressure when he does get blocks and can throw the ball with accuracy and not miss wide open receivers. Show me receivers that catch the mall when it is delivered on time.

Outside of one Barkley run, I see more of the same from 2016 and 2017. Perhaps the problem runs deeper than mcadoo and he who shall remain nameless was part of a problem and not a passive victim?

For the BBI optimists who think the Giants can do no wrong, outside of one Barkley run, what should we be optimistic about, going on 3-15 dating back to Green Bay. Looks an awful lot like a 6-10 or 7-9 team that supposedly was win now and made all of their offseason decisions around one more run.

Show me something different.
RE: RE: Yup.  
montanagiant : 9/9/2018 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14067474 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
In comment 14067170 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:


Deflected TD pass was not on Eli. Flowers with the fluck up

It was on Flowers for sure, but a 14 year veteran QB has no business throwing it low and blind into the line on what had become a busted play. Game changing, terrible result, triggered by Flowers, but Eli should have buried it where no one could get it.

What?
How to come up with he was throwing it blindly and how was he supposed to know it would get tipped?

Some of you guys crack me the hell up with these mental gymnastics to place blame on Eli
Hard to win a game with a ST turnover and allowing a defensive TD.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/9/2018 4:26 pm : link
While it's unfair to boil a game down to one thing, my main headline would be "Offensive Line Is Non-Competitive on Too Many Plays for Giants to Take Winnable Game". Flowers was horrendous. He personally killed 2 or 3 drives on his own and his man caused the initial pressure on the tipped INT for TD. I never expected Solder to be Jonathan Ogden, but there were too many plays in which he was non-competitive too. Halapio and Hernandez got shoved into the backfield and Omameh flat out whiffed at least once that I saw.

Eli was solid, but he definitely missed Odell on what would've been a game-tying TD. His accuracy on some of the short passes was also problematic and limited the YAC potential.

Odell was Odell, which is GREAT. Saquon had 5 plays in which you see Hall of Fame ability, not just really good back stuff. Unfortunately, the o-line and TE blocking was no help at times.

The defense played as well as could be expected considering the general lack of speed and talent in some areas. Kudos to Eli Apple for a wonderful game.
RE: RE: Unfortunateky, they're stuck with Flowers  
j_rud : 9/9/2018 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14067462 Rflairr said:
Quote:
In comment 14067448 micky said:


Quote:


Barring injury til next year

Get used to it



Put Wheeler in there. Try to send him a message
Its year 4 after a position change. It's past sending a message. The guy just can't play. It's not even his fault, really. He just doesn't have it and unfortunately there's no viable alternative at this point.
RE: 3 Head Coaches, 2 GMs, multiple position coaches  
BigBlueinDE : 9/9/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14067413 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
and we still can't shore up the OL over the last 4-5 years



They tried to shore up the OL, but the investments (Pugh, Flowers) didn't pan out.
RE: Again that drive  
RobCarpenter : 9/9/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14067395 Rflairr said:
Quote:
After the Barkley TD was a back breaker. They beat themselves. Going with Stewart that drive after the Defense got them the ball right back was moronic. Had all the momentum, and just foolishly put Stewart in there with idiotic play calling


Stewart isn’t the one who dropped the ball on a crossing route. And he had a decent run for positive yardage.

It sucks to lose but the team had a chance to win at the end. Against a team that had a 10 pt 4th quarter lead on the Pats in the AFC championship game, that’s no small accomplishment.

RE: I think everyone is discounting how much effect the rain had  
AcesUp : 9/9/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14067478 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Without a good running game bad weather is going to hinder our offense vertically


Both teams played in rain. Our pass D is vulnerable, it helped us on defense as well.
I'm not understanding all these posts about "positives"  
LG in NYC : 9/9/2018 4:27 pm : link
other than Saquon I am actually more discouraged after this game.

Sloppy, uninspiring play calling, same ol Eli, too many drops, horrific O Line play... oh yeah, and in a big spot or ST blew it.

I was hoping for more - didn't see it.

At least it's only week 1
RE: RE: RE: Ereck Flowers destroyed us  
D_Giants : 9/9/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14067379 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 14067365 Matt M. said:


Quote:


In comment 14067293 Anakim said:


Quote:


But Shurmur made a few really questionable calls. I have no idea what he was thinking burning a play with that Jonathan Stewart run.

And why didn't we put OBJ back for the punt?

Ther is absolutely no reason for Stewart to have even been on the field. He scares nobody in the running game, is less of a threat in the passing game, Barkley was fresh as it was the start of a drive.



That, but also running with two minutes left and you're down by 5 and you're not in the redzone. It was like Shurmur was eating time.

Well, Shurmur was trying to establish the run for a balanced attack. He reminds me of McAdoo. The OL and the O playcalling was unimpressive. Our new offensive-genius coach is now 10-24 as a HC. The O’s net points: 9.

Very weird. Very weird playcall.
RE: Shurmur should have put Jonathan  
BigBlueinDE : 9/9/2018 4:28 pm : link
In comment 14067425 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
in for the 2-point conversion, right after Saquon's 70-yard run, instead of on the next possession.


That's a fair point. Good observation.
Engram cost us big time  
Blueforever : 9/9/2018 4:29 pm : link
and why does Beckham pussey foot OOB so much. Also Latimore 1 holding call and no receptions
RE: They just stood toe to toe with one of the best d’s  
mrvax : 9/9/2018 4:29 pm : link
In comment 14067406 eli4life said:
Quote:
In the league. Sucks we came up short and it ended like that but the future is definitely looking better. Nobody expected to be contenders this year so personally I’m going to see the young guys develop


Hard to accept another loss. They did well against a top NFL team though. Even with the Oline issues, they didn't get blown out.
...  
christian : 9/9/2018 4:29 pm : link
Nate Solder was as bad as Flowers today. I know that's tough to hear, but he was awful.
I'm not so down.  
section125 : 9/9/2018 4:30 pm : link
They did better than I thought.

Before yo get so down on Flowers, I saw at least 4 holding penalties on the Jags were worse than that one they called in the 1st quarter. Neither Solder or Flowers did very well.
About what I expected, but they played better than the score showed.

Evan Engram better learn to catch the ball.

Eli had good numbers but missed Odell twice for TDs (1st half one was tough but should have been made.) On the 4th and 6 he absolutely missed Shepard who had a full step on his man. That INT TD may be blamed on pressure, but Eli stepped up and managed to get a tipped pass when he had Shepard or Engram open..a pro QB has to make that play. I do like the roll outs and Eli looked good doing it.

Barkley had two plays where he should have made two 1st downs. He should not have tried to dive over the pile and on a reception he needed to drive through the defender.
But we have a running back. Kid can play.


RE: Disappointed but still better play than what we saw last year  
lax counsel : 9/9/2018 4:30 pm : link
In comment 14067479 gmen4ever said:
Quote:
Nonetheless there were opportunities that slipped through our fingers.


Outside of one Barkley run, what looked better on offense?
RE: RE: Other than Flowers.....  
bluepepper : 9/9/2018 4:31 pm : link
In comment 14067469 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14067380 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I’m really encouraged by what I saw. We played a tough defense, in the rain.


I’m not encouraged at all. Basically, we were a one man offense of Odel drawing penalties and receiving the lion share of targets. When we ventured out to Engram and Shepard they were disappponting and Barkley’s sick TD run was great and should not be discounted, but he couldn’t get anything sustained. A home run hitter rb is a weapon but it is so much less valuable then a guy who can consistently move the chains with 5 and 6 yard carries.

My fear with Barkley was that would be that kind of guy but honestly I'm encouraged because he did run very tough a few times today. Not much to show for it but I think it will translate well against teams with lesser front sevens.
RE: My Takeaways  
Matt M. : 9/9/2018 4:32 pm : link
In comment 14067488 lax counsel said:
Quote:
Pros
-defense looked very good
-Eli Apple, to his credit looked very good
- Barkley shows fairly well, most of his stats on one run.
-I like all of the defensive looks from Bettcher.

Cons
- game number 34 in a row under 30 points
-offense, for the most part still putrid, different names same result
- o line still pretty bad, although Eli got more time today then last year, not much but definitely more
- Eli continuing to show dimisnhed skills throwing the ball downfield. I’m not referring to the times when he’s under pressure, I’m talking about all the inconsistency on where the ball is delivered.
- coaching changed , still looks like mcadoo, terrible play calling down the stretch

I think we’re going to see a lot of these types of games. No one fears or respects the giants passing game, but we ll see one or two Barkley runs that makes everyone will go wild in a losing effort. These are the things that all of the overhaul fans feared, and they feared their ugly heads today.

Show me a line that can block with consistency. Show me a qb that doesn’t feel phantom pressure when he does get blocks and can throw the ball with accuracy and not miss wide open receivers. Show me receivers that catch the mall when it is delivered on time.

Outside of one Barkley run, I see more of the same from 2016 and 2017. Perhaps the problem runs deeper than mcadoo and he who shall remain nameless was part of a problem and not a passive victim?

For the BBI optimists who think the Giants can do no wrong, outside of one Barkley run, what should we be optimistic about, going on 3-15 dating back to Green Bay. Looks an awful lot like a 6-10 or 7-9 team that supposedly was win now and made all of their offseason decisions around one more run.

Show me something different.
The results were similar, but the playcaling was very different. For one, we didn't run everyone short of the sticks every 3rd down. For anothere, we didn't run everyone to the same zone. There were nice layers/route trees on plays, there were different formations. What I didn't like was too much in the shotgun.
RE: Other than Flowers.....  
UberAlias : 9/9/2018 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14067380 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I’m really encouraged by what I saw. We played a tough defense, in the rain.
. Agreed. They are not there yet, but looking better. That’s the important takeaway.
I thought there  
Rick5 : 9/9/2018 4:33 pm : link
were some positives, but a loss is a loss. If they don't beat Dallas now, they will be in a must win situation (for all practical purposes) in week 3.
I don't mind Beckham running out of bounds when nothing is there  
since1925 : 9/9/2018 4:33 pm : link
I hate him running backwards and turning six yard gains into three yard gains when nothing is there.
RE: Engram cost us big time  
bluepepper : 9/9/2018 4:34 pm : link
In comment 14067515 Blueforever said:
Quote:
and why does Beckham pussey foot OOB so much. Also Latimore 1 holding call and no receptions

Odell goes out of bounds when there is nothing there. He's not going to bowl guys over. He's playing smart to stay healthy. I'm fine with it.
RE: We all knew this was a multi year rebuild.  
micky : 9/9/2018 4:34 pm : link
In comment 14067360 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
O Line is so glaring it's hard to take...but let's hope next year it will at least be average.


not according to Giants and not drafting for future...qb

so eli leaves they'll be stuck in that journeymen qb carousal which will still hold them back
Campbell  
AcidTest : 9/9/2018 4:34 pm : link
showed us why he is having a HOF career.
RE: RE: Engram cost us big time  
dpinzow : 9/9/2018 4:35 pm : link
In comment 14067536 bluepepper said:
Quote:
In comment 14067515 Blueforever said:


Quote:


and why does Beckham pussey foot OOB so much. Also Latimore 1 holding call and no receptions


Odell goes out of bounds when there is nothing there. He's not going to bowl guys over. He's playing smart to stay healthy. I'm fine with it.


Exactly. Odell had a career-threatening injury so anything he does to stay on the field and not deal with needless injury is fine by me, at least in the regular season
RE: RE: My Takeaways  
lax counsel : 9/9/2018 4:35 pm : link
In comment 14067527 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 14067488 lax counsel said:


Quote:


Pros
-defense looked very good
-Eli Apple, to his credit looked very good
- Barkley shows fairly well, most of his stats on one run.
-I like all of the defensive looks from Bettcher.

Cons
- game number 34 in a row under 30 points
-offense, for the most part still putrid, different names same result
- o line still pretty bad, although Eli got more time today then last year, not much but definitely more
- Eli continuing to show dimisnhed skills throwing the ball downfield. I’m not referring to the times when he’s under pressure, I’m talking about all the inconsistency on where the ball is delivered.
- coaching changed , still looks like mcadoo, terrible play calling down the stretch

I think we’re going to see a lot of these types of games. No one fears or respects the giants passing game, but we ll see one or two Barkley runs that makes everyone will go wild in a losing effort. These are the things that all of the overhaul fans feared, and they feared their ugly heads today.

Show me a line that can block with consistency. Show me a qb that doesn’t feel phantom pressure when he does get blocks and can throw the ball with accuracy and not miss wide open receivers. Show me receivers that catch the mall when it is delivered on time.

Outside of one Barkley run, I see more of the same from 2016 and 2017. Perhaps the problem runs deeper than mcadoo and he who shall remain nameless was part of a problem and not a passive victim?

For the BBI optimists who think the Giants can do no wrong, outside of one Barkley run, what should we be optimistic about, going on 3-15 dating back to Green Bay. Looks an awful lot like a 6-10 or 7-9 team that supposedly was win now and made all of their offseason decisions around one more run.

Show me something different.

The results were similar, but the playcaling was very different. For one, we didn't run everyone short of the sticks every 3rd down. For anothere, we didn't run everyone to the same zone. There were nice layers/route trees on plays, there were different formations. What I didn't like was too much in the shotgun.


They scored 15 points. Show me something different. If the play calling was better, what’s the problem?
My guess is Eli wouldn't have led the team to a TD  
xman : 9/9/2018 4:36 pm : link
Where were the TD's today other then Barkley. More likely he would have thrown another pick.

Most OL lines are nothing to write home about. Its just that Qb's maneuver better. And the few golden opportunities you have to make a big play on a wide open receiver flying down field you need to make those plays.They are few and far between so to throw a poor pass is a game killer .

Accuracy and ball protection is a must for a QB
Been a long time  
joeinpa : 9/9/2018 4:36 pm : link
in feeling the afterglow of a big Giants victory. You know, the kind of win that makes the other games you watch more enjoyable, the talk radio in the background, more fun.

Been a long time. Going to be a long time unless the offensive line becomes at least adequate on certain passing downs and short yardage.
RE: My guess is Eli wouldn't have led the team to a TD  
map7711 : 9/9/2018 4:39 pm : link
In comment 14067547 xman said:
Quote:
Where were the TD's today other then Barkley. More likely he would have thrown another pick.

Most OL lines are nothing to write home about. Its just that Qb's maneuver better. And the few golden opportunities you have to make a big play on a wide open receiver flying down field you need to make those plays.They are few and far between so to throw a poor pass is a game killer .

Accuracy and ball protection is a must for a QB


Unreal. Lol.
RE: RE: Other than Flowers.....  
RDJR : 9/9/2018 4:39 pm : link
In comment 14067533 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14067380 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I’m really encouraged by what I saw. We played a tough defense, in the rain.

. Agreed. They are not there yet, but looking better. That’s the important takeaway.


It’s week one with a new coach and front office. Did you expect we wouldn’t show up? Jax is not good offensively. Their D is dominant. We lost. No silver lining. If 13 and 26 show up we will compete.
played like.....  
thrunthrublue : 9/9/2018 4:41 pm : link
cleveland light.....
RE: RE: 3 Head Coaches, 2 GMs, multiple position coaches  
SHO'NUFF : 9/9/2018 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14067501 BigBlueinDE said:
Quote:
In comment 14067413 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


and we still can't shore up the OL over the last 4-5 years




They tried to shore up the OL, but the investments (Pugh, Flowers) didn't pan out.


Trying and doing are two different things. Overreaching for short arms Pugh and Richberg and passing on Gurley for Flowers is inexcusable.
For me as damning as Flowers' physical failures are,  
ColHowPepper : 9/9/2018 4:43 pm : link
moreso is his fundamental lack of grasp of playing the position.

- on his second 15 yard penalty on the first possession (that some here called debatable, anything but), he was shaking his head, shrugging his shoulders, expressing (to my eyes) that he had not held, had not done anything to incur the penalty (Collinsworth on Thursday night gave an excellent tutorial on when and why Flowers was called on it when he was)

- his trip (almost as egregious as the Dallas OT that hooked Tuck's leg and crippled him for a good chunk of the season) was so blatant, he was so beat, he's like a man drowning in a storm-tossed sea who will do anything he can think of that will 'salvage' the situation

- the last possession, when he gave up two really bad pressures that forced Eli to hurry the passes, I believe it was not Calais C but a lighter DE (maybe a LB), who just bull rushed EF who had no clue how to anchor and slow the d lineman.

The fact that three well regarded OL coaches have come up empty with the guy seems to indicate that he has very little mental resources to learn the position, recognize what the DL is doing, improve technique, etc.
On D - some lapses in coverage......  
Simms11 : 9/9/2018 4:44 pm : link
Some guys completely wide open. Lack of a pass rush without blitzing is troublesome. Run D also had a few issues, but one long run by Bortles skewed the rushing totals for J’ville. Overall, I think the D played fairly well. J’ville is not a juggernaut on offense and so this is a good start, but has to get better.

On O - Oline hung in there against a really tough opponent, but Flowers is going to have to be replaced next year. There’s no doubt about that. I have to ask why we didn’t put Ellison over there more in critical situations?! Anyway, running game, other then 1 great run, was not good either....I think that too is attributable to poor run blocking. Passing O was not bad, but Eli missed a few TDs to OBJ. Oline did a decent job in Pass Pro most of the game, but Flowers gave up too much pressure in critical junctures of the game.

On ST - Rosas was good, Dixon punted well and coverage units were good. Came down to one poor PR at the end.
Same ole G offense  
D_Giants : 9/9/2018 4:44 pm : link
Two years ago, D won the 11 games. Last year, they got hurt and disillusioned, playing 45 of 60 minutes. Eli got 6 points (2 FGs) and gave 7, for net -1. D got 3 points (from INT) and despite givihg O great field position thereafter, O did nothing. Lots if lateral play calls, very little up the middle. Shurmur was outcoached. Too bad Mara didnt keep TC and Spags, and lose JR and McAdoo after 2015.

Eli is unathletic. He can barely move; he is immobile and is, of course, no running threat. His passes are inconsistent. His best days, despite the rhetoric, are 7 years behind him.

Why not put Wheeler in at RT? He could NOT have been worse than EF.
We can win that game...  
M.S. : 9/9/2018 4:45 pm : link

...with a legitimate right tackle.

Flowers will plague us whenever he goes up against talent.
Wheeler  
AcidTest : 9/9/2018 4:45 pm : link
is the only other viable option right now at RT. It is a given that the Giants want a new RT next year, but right now it's either Flowers or Wheeler.
RE: Wheeler  
M.S. : 9/9/2018 4:47 pm : link
In comment 14067587 AcidTest said:
Quote:
is the only other viable option right now at RT. It is a given that the Giants want a new RT next year, but right now it's either Flowers or Wheeler.

W.H.E.E.L.E.R.
Overall Not the Look Of a Playoff Team  
Jeffrey : 9/9/2018 4:49 pm : link
Play calling, on again, off again Eli, poor return teams, and an OL which looks no better than last year. Pugh, Richburg and Fluker are no worse than what they have added.
RE: Eh, I dunno  
Brick72 : 9/9/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14067453 Chris684 said:
Quote:
I am usually always optimistic....but this offensive line.

I was hopeful that Gettleman was able to upgrade to an average unit but I didn’t see that today.

Constantly in 3rd and forever. No consistency in the run game.

Disappointing games from Engram and Shepard.

Shepard?? Really? OK. You know sometimes people make you wonder what game they were watching. This is a classic example.
...  
christian : 9/9/2018 4:50 pm : link
The Giants offense looks about what I expected:

- Run blocking as bad or worse than the last few years
- Virtually nothing offensively outside of Beckham, Shepard and Barkley
- Manning the same good, but not game changing QB he's been for the last several years

The tackles will play better as the year progresses. Latimer and Ellison will get more targets and be good for a few hundred yards each. Manning will duplicate his 2016 season.

Should be good for a 6-7 win year and better play down the stretch.
RE: RE: Eh, I dunno  
BleedBlue : 9/9/2018 4:51 pm : link
In comment 14067599 Brick72 said:
Quote:
In comment 14067453 Chris684 said:


Quote:


I am usually always optimistic....but this offensive line.

I was hopeful that Gettleman was able to upgrade to an average unit but I didn’t see that today.

Constantly in 3rd and forever. No consistency in the run game.

Disappointing games from Engram and Shepard.


Shepard?? Really? OK. You know sometimes people make you wonder what game they were watching. This is a classic example.



its hard to be consistent in run when youre playing the best front in the game. shit happensm we played well enough to win and just didnt it happens
I'm not trying to convince anyone that the Giants are the '88 Niners  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/9/2018 4:51 pm : link
offensively, but some of you guys aren't realizing that this is the best defensive line, best coverage LBs, and best cornerbacks the Giants will face all season... all on one team. And yet there were still opportunities for the offense to make plays.
It's  
AcidTest : 9/9/2018 4:52 pm : link
a two year rebuild. DG has done as much as he can in year one. We need another offseason.
this is more thana two year  
Shirk130 : 9/9/2018 4:55 pm : link
rebuild
Gallman expects to play next week. He said he was out for  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/9/2018 4:56 pm : link
"precautionary reasons". All I know is whatever amount of plays Jonathan Stewart was out there for was too damn many.
Will somebody explain the thinking behind picking Kaelin Clay  
D_Giants : 9/9/2018 4:57 pm : link
and dumping Hunter Sharp last week. Clay is terrible. I think the FO outsmarted themselves completely. It was even more brilliant than iverpaying a washed up J Stewart and trading the best center they had.

DG is showing why he needed a job and Shurmur is really McAdoo with a mask on.
If this is the best defense  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/9/2018 4:57 pm : link
we see all year, we'll be fine.

I'm totally hammered though.
Flowers pick was the albatross around our neck  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/9/2018 4:58 pm : link
Mel Kiper did a better job scouting than Reese and Ross.
RE: Same ole G offense  
Ed A. : 9/9/2018 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14067580 D_Giants said:
Quote:
Two years ago, D won the 11 games. Last year, they got hurt and disillusioned, playing 45 of 60 minutes. Eli got 6 points (2 FGs) and gave 7, for net -1. D got 3 points (from INT) and despite givihg O great field position thereafter, O did nothing. Lots if lateral play calls, very little up the middle. Shurmur was outcoached. Too bad Mara didnt keep TC and Spags, and lose JR and McAdoo after 2015.

Eli is unathletic. He can barely move; he is immobile and is, of course, no running threat. His passes are inconsistent. His best days, despite the rhetoric, are 7 years behind him.

Why not put Wheeler in at RT? He could NO























T have been worse than EF.


Oh no? Wheeler is not the answer. You obviously haven't been watching. As bad as Flowers is, Wheeler is worse.
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