Watching the first round of Monday night games, my biggest envy was line play. Pass protection, power running, ball control.
Yes, the youngster can scramble, who I wont specifically mention by name because this is a Giants site. That would absolutely help our cause here and there. But more times than not, these guys have 3, 4, or 5 seconds to throw. WR's can run their route and augment/pivot when needed and still have time to create something.
Eli is not Eli from 2011, we all know that. But the guy needs more time as a pocket passer to be effective. Frankly, I cannot believe I am still have this conversation, and I due know that some of the pressure was the byproduct of a very good defense we played. But come on now.
This week is big for me as a fan. If I do not see Getty looking at other tackle options, doing some form of due diligence, well, then I'm afraid our W/L ceiling comes down dramatically this year, in my eyes. 8-8, 9-7, max.
Tired of watching other teams and other QB's sitting back there and pointing out places to throw with time. Eli needs more. The team cannot execute on all cylinders without it. Make something happen.
2. Trade the #2 pick for more picks/players, with the aim at fixing the OL/team....and Eli just holding the reins as the team rebuilds....
3. Draft Barkley....play for now....
Only time will tell, which was the correct move...one game does not answer the question....
But I wouldn't have drafted Barkley.....I wouldn't have signed Solder for that kind of money....sometimes you have to rebuild for the future and it will take time, and more losing seasons....I would rather rebuild with losing seasons, rather than think we are one or two players away and continue to falter....
The draft, DG, the HC.....we will either be right or wrong.....but no one wants to wait 3 years or more to find out.....
OJ Simpson wasn't enough to win a championship and Barry Sanders wasn't enough to win championship and Eric Dickerson wasn't enough to win a championship. RB's are complimentary players they are not difference makers.
It's not just that the Giants didn't draft a QB they drafted the easiest position to fill in the NFL and the most fungible.
OJ Simpson wasn't enough to win a championship and Barry Sanders wasn't enough to win championship and Eric Dickerson wasn't enough to win a championship. RB's are complimentary players they are not difference makers.
It's not just that the Giants didn't draft a QB they drafted the easiest position to fill in the NFL and the most fungible.
Explain again? How did it not work for NYG? I'm very confused.
I can't wait until we have a functional OL again. It's been forever.
Eli hasn’t been an elite QB in years. He’s a pedestrian at best QB. His game check, however, is elite.
If this is a 6 to 8 win team this year, the second pick in the draft (a pick most franchises only get once in a generation) was wasted, regardless of Barkley's stats. A proper rebuild would have required turning that pick into either a potential franchise quarterback or trading it to accumulate more draft picks. Instead, they took a running back who, like a new car, begins depreciating the second he is acquired. A young quarterback would have a chance to develop with the hope of peaking as a player in a few years when the rest of the pieces are in place. Barkley, on the other hand, is the best player he is ever going to be right now - when the rest of the team is no good. Even if we assume the Giants are able to draft extraordinarily well over the next few seasons, can find and develop their next quarterback, and successfully build the rest of the roster into a championship-contending group, by the time that all that happens, Barkley will probably be done.
If the goal for the organization was to maximize the number of exciting players on the roster, win a respectable number of games so as not to be embarrassed like they were last season, and keep the fan base out of all out mutiny, then their offseason makes sense. However, their offseason makes zero sense as a "rebuild" and if the goal was to seriously contend this year, then they should be held to that. If they are not at least a playoff team this year, then by their own standards this past offseason was a failure. When you have a 37 year old quarterback with no plan of succession at the position and draft a running back with a likely shelf life of 3-5 years at the top of the first round, a 6-8 win season is not "progress" - it is bitter failure.
It absolutely is. The quality of pass protection is degrading - the way to mitigate is with a quarterback that can move, and throw accurately while doing so.
Quote:
.
It absolutely is. The quality of pass protection is degrading - the way to mitigate is with a quarterback that can move, and throw accurately while doing so.
Brady, Foles and Ryan. Bortles decent mobility although not exactly Michael Vick.
Quote:
.
It absolutely is. The quality of pass protection is degrading - the way to mitigate is with a quarterback that can move, and throw accurately while doing so.
I'd say semi-mobility is required. You don't have to be Mike Vick to succeed, but you have to have some wheels. One of the reasons I liked Darnold as the pick for us. He can make killer throws when things aren't perfect (O-line, his feet, etc.)
If this is a 6 to 8 win team this year, the second pick in the draft (a pick most franchises only get once in a generation) was wasted, regardless of Barkley's stats. A proper rebuild would have required turning that pick into either a potential franchise quarterback or trading it to accumulate more draft picks. Instead, they took a running back who, like a new car, begins depreciating the second he is acquired. A young quarterback would have a chance to develop with the hope of peaking as a player in a few years when the rest of the pieces are in place. Barkley, on the other hand, is the best player he is ever going to be right now - when the rest of the team is no good. Even if we assume the Giants are able to draft extraordinarily well over the next few seasons, can find and develop their next quarterback, and successfully build the rest of the roster into a championship-contending group, by the time that all that happens, Barkley will probably be done.
If the goal for the organization was to maximize the number of exciting players on the roster, win a respectable number of games so as not to be embarrassed like they were last season, and keep the fan base out of all out mutiny, then their offseason makes sense. However, their offseason makes zero sense as a "rebuild" and if the goal was to seriously contend this year, then they should be held to that. If they are not at least a playoff team this year, then by their own standards this past offseason was a failure. When you have a 37 year old quarterback with no plan of succession at the position and draft a running back with a likely shelf life of 3-5 years at the top of the first round, a 6-8 win season is not "progress" - it is bitter failure.
This is spot on. I don’t think fans want to hear this, they want to gleefully believe that the giants drafted a generational talent who may have no major impact on the team’s winning now or in the future. There needed to be a direction set this past offseason, the Giants chose the present. This is fine, but the team as constructed does not look win now, or even next season. This leaves us with a team looking for the long haul, but with so much uncertainty in the Giants qb situation, the long haul looks bleaker than the present. Thus, it brings us back to the Giants as an organization with no direction.
The mobile QB will allow you windows of greatness and opportunity, but he will always get injured. Russell Wilson seems like the lone exception to the rule.
As far as implementing a system of two of these guys to mitigate the injury risk, good luck trying to find that.
On a personal note, Deshaun Watson impressed me enough in college with his two performances against Nick Saban defenses to make me re-think my own opinion and I wound up wanting to take him in the 1st round of the 2017 draft if he fell to us. I loved him, and I still love all that he brings as a QB but his injury has me spooked once again.
The mobile QB will allow you windows of greatness and opportunity, but he will always get injured. Russell Wilson seems like the lone exception to the rule.
As far as implementing a system of two of these guys to mitigate the injury risk, good luck trying to find that.
On a personal note, Deshaun Watson impressed me enough in college with his two performances against Nick Saban defenses to make me re-think my own opinion and I wound up wanting to take him in the 1st round of the 2017 draft if he fell to us. I loved him, and I still love all that he brings as a QB but his injury has me spooked once again.
I'm not necessarily talking about a Vick level of mobility. I'm talking about QBs with the ability to create throwing opportunities with their legs, and (crucially) the ability to deliver the ball accurately on the move. I thought Darnold exhibited that yesterday. A great example was on the third down completion to Enunwa that seemed certain to be ruled incomplete through replay. Darnold did a great job extending the play with his legs.
Or look at what Rodgers did on the long Cobb TD Sunday night. He extended the play, causing the two deep safeties to eventually widen and leave a huge hole through which Cobb could turn a 15 yard gain into a long TD.
There are a couple grandmaster level guys still operating from the pocket (Brady and Brees), but that's about it at the upper echelon.
Out of fear of avoiding "Quarterback hell," Gettleman dropped us right smack-dab in the middle of it.
It could be a long, long time before this team is competitive again because we lack a winning presence at the most important position in professional sports.
Wooo easy Giant natty we aren’t going to win many games this year
Next year comes the QB
The Packers have already lost 2 seasons of prime SB contention after Rodgers sustained injuries outside the pocket.
He's also a tough comparison considering he may just be the most gifted QB of all-time in terms of physical ability.
What's more important to me is pocket presence. This is something that has deteriorated with Eli as he has stood behind poor OL after poor OL. He has been hearing the footsteps, which needs to improve, but in the preseason and after 1 week I do think his presence has appeared to be more sharp.
You get better at football by playing football .......
Been hearing that since Randall Cunningham. There will always be a place for quality passers even if they can't run.
If Gettleman ruined your team by drafting Barkley, maybe you should stick it to him by rooting for another team, and vomiting your idiocy on their fan boards instead of this one?
Nobody will miss your idiotic hot takes.
OJ Simpson wasn't enough to win a championship and Barry Sanders wasn't enough to win championship and Eric Dickerson wasn't enough to win a championship. RB's are complimentary players they are not difference makers.
And Dan Marino was not enough to win a championship. Neither was Jim Kelly. Neither was Dan Fouts...
Teams win championships, not individual position players. That is a very basic concept that most fans understand. Hopefully this helps you.
Quote:
OJ Simpson wasn't enough to win a championship and Barry Sanders wasn't enough to win championship and Eric Dickerson wasn't enough to win a championship. RB's are complimentary players they are not difference makers.
And Dan Marino was not enough to win a championship. Neither was Jim Kelly. Neither was Dan Fouts...
Teams win championships, not individual position players. That is a very basic concept that most fans understand. Hopefully this helps you.
+1, and Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles, and Joe Flacco did win. Its the team, and it can be built in different ways.
Which situation makes it easier to construct a team?
Made commitment to continuity by actually re-signing all of their backup o-line from last year. The interior were all UFA eligible, the OT needed an RFA tender.
No stars here. James Carpenter LG probably is most talented for his position, but he had a pretty bad year and was rumored to be vulnerable.
Just providing a factual snapshot of another teams o-line on-going strategy. Too early for judgement although Darnold's mobility covers an individual sin.
And Dan Marino was not enough to win a championship. Neither was Jim Kelly. Neither was Dan Fouts...
Teams win championships, not individual position players. That is a very basic concept that most fans understand. Hopefully this helps you.
Well, between 2 of those 3, they got to the SB 5X - 1 for Marino and 4 for Kelly. And Kelly was a 47 FG from at least winning one. So getting there, IMV, is a big deal, too.
And while you list those 3 great QBs, there is an endless list of other great QBs who have won SBs. So the common denominator most of the time is indeed a great QB. Yes, a team has to have balance and quality on both sides of the ball, but it's a helluva a lot easier to succeed with some longevity with the great QB.
I love ELi. Give him time he's going to crush. Equally, you give Saquon the same running lanes the Jets had last night, he rushes for more yards than Darnold throws.
True story. Get focused guys.
If Gettleman ruined your team by drafting Barkley, maybe you should stick it to him by rooting for another team, and vomiting your idiocy on their fan boards instead of this one?
Nobody will miss your idiotic hot takes.
All you have done is lob personal insults in response to my posts. Sorry you can't handle opposing views and fair criticism of an organization that seems to have no long term plan or direction. There is substantive discussion here that people are having without name calling.
Take a lap. Perhaps all the way back to Ohio.
Our Front 7 has looked ok. We had some rush, got a sack, without our best pass rusher (the other Eli had an encouraging game too).
We likely have a franchise RB.
Our OL just played the toughest defense in the league. They looked awful at times...but we almost won the game. We need a new RT, no doubt about it. That's coming next year for sure.
We are on the path.
Which situation makes it easier to construct a team?
Right but that wasn’t the scenario. The scenario was Darnold sitting here for atleast a year, paying both and then maybe cutting Eli next year.
If this was a clean slate like you suggest, it’s onviously a no brainer.
Quote:
and around which situation is it easier to build a team? Eli is 37 and will cost us $45M over the next 2 years. Darnold is 21 and will cost the Jets $30M over the next 4 years.
Which situation makes it easier to construct a team?
Right but that wasn’t the scenario. The scenario was Darnold sitting here for atleast a year, paying both and then maybe cutting Eli next year.
If this was a clean slate like you suggest, it’s onviously a no brainer.
The scenario would have been to release Eli this offseason. I remembered that there was a possible out in his contract, but couldn't remember the details. So I looked them up. See below from an article last November:
Cutting Eli and drafting Darnold appeared to be completely realistic possibilities under the cap.
Link - ( New Window )
Bill L : 11:18 am : link : reply
players, (which I think is done, but whatever), Barkley is complementing an elite WR, an elite slot receiver, an elite QB and a potentially elite pass-catching TE. That's exactly the group of skill people that you *want* to complement. And then when they do something good...you compliment them.
Bill the only person you can put that "elite tag" on is OBj.....
Eli is at the point in his career where he can not achieve "eliteness".......our slot receiver has never come close to that title and is more Randle-esque than elite....As for EE, I give him a pass in this game coming off concussion protocol.....but if you fan on blocks and have the dropsies, and have yet to achieve the so-called status given to him, no linebacker can keep up with him, he still has a long way to go.....I just hope he gets there....
I thought SB instantly made this OL better.....he doesn't...every run where he makes good yardage, it's because he runs, not where the run was intended, because the hole is not there....I was more shocked at Hernandez than I was of Omameh....We spent a lot of money on a LT, that's not even a top 10 LT, thank you Jerry Reese.....as for Flowers, speed rushers are going to kill him all year.....it's amazing he knows the snap count, and the guy on the other side of the line, moves before he does....
What if you left 1 more Super Bowl run on the table?
What if you put a young QB like Darnold behind this offensive line?
What if Barkley becomes a HOFer and Darnold a bust?
It seems so easy, except it's not. The Colts were supposed to have had everything line up for them with Peyton getting hurt just in time to have the #1 pick fall in their laps for Luck, except it hasn't turned out that way.
What if you left 1 more Super Bowl run on the table?
What if you put a young QB like Darnold behind this offensive line?
What if Barkley becomes a HOFer and Darnold a bust?
It seems so easy, except it's not. The Colts were supposed to have had everything line up for them with Peyton getting hurt just in time to have the #1 pick fall in their laps for Luck, except it hasn't turned out that way.
What if Sam Darnold turns out to be the best QB in history? What if Eli Manning suffers a career ending injury?
You can "what if" either way until you are blue in the face, making up almost any scenario. But you can't "what if" the ages and contracts of these two players. In a vacuum, the QB who is 16 years younger than and 25% the cost of the other QB is the preferable option 100 times out 100.
The decision to move forward with Eli instead of drafting Darnold can only be justified using highly subjective arguments.
It seems so easy, except it's not. The Colts were supposed to have had everything line up for them with Peyton getting hurt just in time to have the #1 pick fall in their laps for Luck, except it hasn't turned out that way.
Just as a quick aside here but I'm not sure that is fair to Luck.
In his first three years, basically his real career as he's been hurt the last three years, he led to Colts to three straight years of 11-5, so 33-15. Pretty damn good. And that's without a good line, excellent WRs, and good TE and a competent RB - all things his predecessor had year in, year out...
I haven't listened yet.
I thought Eli was poor. He was inaccurate and I think he has some blame for the pick six. He also made a mistake on the two point conversion checking to a run.
The line was garbage, but I'm tired of excuses and rationalizations.
Quote:
Have you heard Lombardi on the Ringer today? Put a lot of the game on Eli. He just isn’t making enough plays. There is so much pressure this year. Hell, this game this week is huge. It can’t be stressed enough.
I haven't listened yet.
I thought Eli was poor. He was inaccurate and I think he has some blame for the pick six. He also made a mistake on the two point conversion checking to a run.
The line was garbage, but I'm tired of excuses and rationalizations.
The rationilazations are over. A lot of teams have crappy lines. Plays need to be made off script. You can’t miss throws against a defense like Jacksonville.
Some people are hopeful after watching Sunday, but for me it’s the opposite. It feels like more of the same and it’s very troubling to me.
Eli's identity has always been the deep ball and fourth quarter heroics, and those are no longer sure things. It's tough carrying him at that price tag.
Eli's identity has always been the deep ball and fourth quarter heroics, and those are no longer sure things. It's tough carrying him at that price tag.
JMO but the play to Odell in the endzone was on Eli.. He didn't hang in the pocket.. There was a bad snap but Eli caught the ball when he saw the rush he threw off his Backfoot.
Eli obviously aint a coward but he bailed on that pass big time
Quote:
In comment 14071696 Sean said:
Quote:
Have you heard Lombardi on the Ringer today? Put a lot of the game on Eli. He just isn’t making enough plays. There is so much pressure this year. Hell, this game this week is huge. It can’t be stressed enough.
I haven't listened yet.
I thought Eli was poor. He was inaccurate and I think he has some blame for the pick six. He also made a mistake on the two point conversion checking to a run.
The line was garbage, but I'm tired of excuses and rationalizations.
The rationilazations are over. A lot of teams have crappy lines. Plays need to be made off script. You can’t miss throws against a defense like Jacksonville.
Some people are hopeful after watching Sunday, but for me it’s the opposite. It feels like more of the same and it’s very troubling to me.
You are both spot on. Fans cannot continue to blame flowers (who is putrid) week in and week out. I’ve posted this a few times, but what we saw Sunday was merely a continuation of the last two years. At some point, the 20m per year qb needs to make a few plays to help his team win the game. It’s simply been too long since I’ve seen Eli elevate his team. If he cannot do that at his current salary, then he either needs to take a massive pay cut so the Giants can build that line allowing him to operate with minimal pressure or it’s likely near the end of his time.
We all wanted to jump on mcadoo last year, I get it I did as well, nonetheless I think there was some merit to his thinking that Eli struggled to operate a modern NFL offense. Doesn’t excuse just how awful of a coach he was, but I think he may have been ahead of the curve in understanding Eli’s capabilities and limitations. Again, a 20m per year qb needs to elevate his team above his circumstances. It’s just not the case for a qb who needs everything around him to be near perfect to function at a high level.
This week will be very telling, the Dallas defense is not great by any stretch so I would expect a 30 point performance out of the Giants. If we continue to see the Giants go 3 and out and fail to produce any quality offense, I do not believe it a stretch to think the season is likely headed no where.
Again, I revert back to the thinking that the Giants front office seems directionless to me. If it’s about winning now, it doesn’t appear that the Giants have put the personnel in place to allow their 37 year old qb to operate a maximum capacity. If it’s about winning in the future than the Giants entire offseason and, more importantly, draft strategy was simply a gigantic failure.
Eli's identity has always been the deep ball and fourth quarter heroics, and those are no longer sure things. It's tough carrying him at that price tag.
100% spot on. Eli's play wasn't the reason we lost, but he certainly wasn't good enough for us to win. With the needle hovering around mediocre, his salary has been a burden that we just can't overcome.
As for drafting a QB instead of Barkley - we didn't have to cut Eli this season to do that. We could just as easily have drafted one and let Eli play out this season while he came up to speed. The Cardinals are doing that as are the Bills, and it's not the worst thing given the level of offense played in college.