My envy last night? Not the QB

I don't know what kind of OL the Jets will end up having, but Detroit's DL stinks. They're awful.

Comparing them in any way to the Jax DL is a waste of time.

It really helps to have a quarterback who can extend plays with their feet. I disagree that O line play throughout the league is good.

What I see are young quarterbacks making plays in unclean pockets

However, that is part of the reason I'm not following the all in on Manning strategy. This was not a team that was a RB away from the next run at something special. So they are all in on a 37 year old QB who isn't going to be successful until major upgrades to the Oline on top of what they did last year.

makes rushing the passer so much easier.

BPA theory.

All NYG did in the draft was pick the best player in the draft with the #2 pick. If the draft is still about acquiring the best available talent regardless of position, the Giants did just that.

In comment 14071028 Chris684 said:

Quote:

BPA theory. All NYG did in the draft was pick the best player in the draft with the #2 pick. If the draft is still about acquiring the best available talent regardless of position, the Giants did just that.

I am a huge supporter of BPA theory -with the one major exception being the starting QB. The difference the QB makes is on a different scale from other positions.

In comment 14071028 Chris684 said:

Quote:

BPA theory. All NYG did in the draft was pick the best player in the draft with the #2 pick. If the draft is still about acquiring the best available talent regardless of position, the Giants did just that.

That's nonsense, at no point has anyone lobbied for pure BPA, it's always been a combination of value and need.

Guys, we all know that Eli is not a threat to run. Either is Tom Brady. Does not give the team an excuse to simply throw the towel in and say, "he's going to suck because he cannot run."

The correct answer is "what we saw at right tackle last week is not enough or becoming of a playoff team." It needs fixing. Should have been done in the off-season.

Facts are facts, playoff teams have great pass rushers, nearly all of them. This is not the only time Flowers will get blown up this year.

.

also got hurt. And when you play ahead things get easier.

Wouldn�t put too much stock in yesterday�s Jet performance, Detroit is likely to be a bottom 5 team in this league. They have very little talent.

In comment 14071028 Chris684 said:

Quote:

BPA theory. All NYG did in the draft was pick the best player in the draft with the #2 pick. If the draft is still about acquiring the best available talent regardless of position, the Giants did just that.

I love both Barkley and Eli, but after last season, it was time for a complete remake of the team including QB.

Eli needs to many things to be right for him to be the most effective. He still has plenty of left in the tank, but with a little younger legs, I think he probably makes those throws to OBJ that he missed on.

We are in the midst of a massive rebuild, and it looks like we will accumulate everything but the QB position. We are going to be in a situation where whenever we get a QB he will step into a good situation around him, but he will have to go through a massive learning curve himself.

The good thing is, the NFL is trending towards Rookie QBs being fairly successful if you have the right guy.

Guys, you are not getting them point here. I'm not talking Barkley versus Darnold. Hence the reason I didn't even want to mention him by name.

There was not a top tier tackle available at #2, or close to #2. I stand by Barkley.

But when Bill B and the Pats are trading mid to late round picks to garner a right tackle, one of which kept Brady untouched on Sunday, that guy could have and should have been us. We used next year's third on a hurt CB. We could have had the Pats RT. We whiffed. End of story.

Now we need to decide if there is a reasonable option out there on the waivers that could at minimum challenge Flowers.

Guys, Flowers noted in his presser yesterday "I missed on the first play because I thought he was a speed rusher, not a power guy." He's dumb, and on top of it he's not coached up because where was the Giants' o line coach with film on the dude. Are you serious? Five years worth of film on the guy and you don't know if he is a power or speed rusher???? Enough is enough.

and also greater risk.

We are 1 game in, but let's keep in mind there was hardly a consensus best overall QB. All had very real concerns.

And just to put it in perspective how far away we are from knowing the answer, Darnold could go on to start in the next 2 AFC title games and still not turn out to be a franchise QB with staying power, and I can't emphasize the "staying power" part enough. That is what it's all about.

Mobile, accurate, leader. Going to hurt watching Saquon announce his games in 10 years.

Also OP his name is Sam Darnold.

In comment 14071053 Bold Ruler said:

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.

So how do Brady and Brees still excel?

In comment 14071070 barens said:

Quote:

In comment 14071053 Bold Ruler said: Quote: . So how do Brady and Brees still excel?

For one, you protect them. This team is constructed on playmakers, not in the trenches, at least on offense. Immobile QB they don't pass protect and huge investment in RB they don't open holes for.

In comment 14071070 barens said:

Quote:

In comment 14071053 Bold Ruler said: Quote: . So how do Brady and Brees still excel?

Because that�s how their teams are built. But it�s hard to do it, which is why it�s only worth doing if the right QB is in place.

Rodgers got hurt again. Yes, I understand the heroics and the fact he won the game but let's see what happens with the knee long term. Already lost 2 seasons because of injury.

Watson comes out lighting the league up and gets hurt. Will now have to prove he can get back to where he was.

The Eagles were lucky enough to have Foles as a backup after losing Wentz should have crushed their dreams last season. Wentz will also have to prove he can make it all the way back.

RGIII's career was derailed due to injury.

good. See what I did there?! Anyway, the Oline play was pretty good regardless of opponent. This is the NFL afterall. I'm hoping this Oline continues to gell, but I think the RT position is going to be our Achilles heel again this year. There are not any better options out there right now and so we have to live with it and scheme to help him. Leaving him alone in crucial situations is unacceptable.

totally offset our OL issues?! The kid would be running for his life, making hurried throws, getting pummeled, and sooner or later shell shocked that is IF he didn't get hurt scambling and taking a crushing hit. If you are going to play the what if game, you've got to play it fairly. I agree with the OP, my first thought watching the Jets was how nice for him to have time to go through your progressions without a hand in your face or running for your life. And hell, their backs had holes o run through bigger than the lincoln tunnel. Give that to SB and see how he does. Anyway, my kingdom for some hog mollies!

Also believe both mobile QBs and pocket passers need good Oline play. When a QB runs out of the pocket, he�s in danger of missing games due to injury. Eli�s mind is an asset. He�s a pocket passer who thinks fast and is a strong leader.

Give him some semblance of protection and he�ll win a SB. The mobile QBs are exciting to watch at times, until they get hurt. Flowers is really hurting this team though.

In comment 14071073 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 14071070 barens said: Quote: In comment 14071053 Bold Ruler said: Quote: . So how do Brady and Brees still excel? For one, you protect them. This team is constructed on playmakers, not in the trenches, at least on offense. Immobile QB they don't pass protect and huge investment in RB they don't open holes for.

The Giants have invested in offensive linemen, it just hasn't always worked out. but really, Brady is Brady, he's the best. You don't have to be mobile, you just have to be really good.

My thoughts exactly. Do you guys realize how quick Eli is getting rid of the ball? A rookie would get killed, even Darnold under that pace.

I'm watching these games and I'm seeing QB's going through progressions, checking down, scanning the field. Eli more times than not is already playing a slant in his mind before the ball is even hiked and every once in a while is able to use his in pocket awareness to step up and create a longer opportunity. But it's few and far between.

My OP was that exact point, not Darnold versus Barkley. Just how refreshing it is to watch a game where the QB isn't under pressure, EVERY, SINGLE, PLAY. Tired of this same conversation for the last five years.

But if you don't you are missing an element on offense that many others have. The Pats scheme a very specific way. Short quick sure handed WRs who are so hard to cover in their scheme. They take shots down field, but set them up brilliantly and lean on Gronk who is as big a mismatch there is. They schemes in NO too. They emphasize protection from pressure up the middle. Brady and Breese are better athletes than Eli and get better protection.

.....were impressive with their OL play last night.

QBs going thru progression, nice blocking for their RBs.

How many games do you expect them to win? 9 would be a miracle 6 is a huge improvement..
Don't compare Jax front to anything u saw yesterday they have one of the best in the NFL

But that also contributes to his relatively low comp % which is below 60% on his career.

Who realized that the #2 pick with Darnold available was an extremely valuable asset that could have been monetized and used to give the Giants tremendous draft capital for 2018 and beyond? If the line is so bad, terrible, no good, awful, the team is going to suck. Shouldn�t the GM look to get as many picks as possible so that these glaring holes can be fixed?

You can�t love the Barkley pick and also complain about the OL. This was an opportunity to remake the franchise. Gettleman blew it.

I still can't believe that in arguably the best QB draft class since 1983, we went RB with the #2 pick. Un-frggin-believeable.

Out of fear of avoiding "Quarterback hell," Gettleman dropped us right smack-dab in the middle of it.

It could be a long, long time before this team is competitive again because we lack a winning presence at the most important position in professional sports.

We have a smart guy at QB. He's also immobile and no threat to even gain a yard if the pass rushers don't maintain some discipline. He can't move in the pocket like he used to.

If I were a D line I'd be salivating at the thought of rushing Eli Manning. Now this team may potentially have a season blown up because of a RT but Manning doesn't get hurt running. Awesome.

In comment 14071058 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

Quote:

In comment 14071028 Chris684 said: Quote: BPA theory. All NYG did in the draft was pick the best player in the draft with the #2 pick. If the draft is still about acquiring the best available talent regardless of position, the Giants did just that. I love both Barkley and Eli, but after last season, it was time for a complete remake of the team including QB. Eli needs to many things to be right for him to be the most effective. He still has plenty of left in the tank, but with a little younger legs, I think he probably makes those throws to OBJ that he missed on. We are in the midst of a massive rebuild, and it looks like we will accumulate everything but the QB position. We are going to be in a situation where whenever we get a QB he will step into a good situation around him, but he will have to go through a massive learning curve himself. The good thing is, the NFL is trending towards Rookie QBs being fairly successful if you have the right guy.

Yes.

That's news to me.

believed Darnold or Rosen was a franchise QB, would many of you still lobby to spend the #2 pick on the best QB available? Do you take someone there because he is the best QB available even if you have concerns about their ceiling in the NFL?

I am not trying to say that is what Gettleman and Shurmur actually believe, I have zero insight into that. But if that fact pattern was true, how many of you would still wish they had just taken the best QB available, regardless of their own convictions on their talent?

In comment 14071109 GiantNatty said:

Quote:

I still can't believe that in arguably the best QB draft class since 1983, we went RB with the #2 pick. Un-frggin-believeable. Out of fear of avoiding "Quarterback hell," Gettleman dropped us right smack-dab in the middle of it. It could be a long, long time before this team is competitive again because we lack a winning presence at the most important position in professional sports.

You'll be much, much better off if you adopt my way of thinking:

(1) The Giants should have gone QB at #2;
(2) They didn't;
(3) They got a running back who will make extraordinary runs look ordinary;
(4) He will help us win games;
(5) In the meantime, we'll just have to wait for our QB of the future.

In comment 14071109 GiantNatty said:

Quote:

I still can't believe that in arguably the best QB draft class since 1983, we went RB with the #2 pick. Un-frggin-believeable. Out of fear of avoiding "Quarterback hell," Gettleman dropped us right smack-dab in the middle of it. It could be a long, long time before this team is competitive again because we lack a winning presence at the most important position in professional sports.

Passing on Darnold/Rosen with a 60 year old declining Eli was beyond idiotic but what can you do now
Just continue to be a fan and hope for the best

In comment 14071126 M.S. said:

Quote:

In comment 14071109 GiantNatty said: Quote: I still can't believe that in arguably the best QB draft class since 1983, we went RB with the #2 pick. Un-frggin-believeable. Out of fear of avoiding "Quarterback hell," Gettleman dropped us right smack-dab in the middle of it. It could be a long, long time before this team is competitive again because we lack a winning presence at the most important position in professional sports. You'll be much, much better off if you adopt my way of thinking: (1) The Giants should have gone QB at #2; (2) They didn't; (3) They got a running back who will make extraordinary runs look ordinary; (4) He will help us win games; (5) In the meantime, we'll just have to wait for our QB of the future.

Ditto. Move on. Eli's here with Barkley. do the best they can. Get a QB down the road (or mold Lauletta). No Draft pick is a guarantee.

We have a generational RB who just got 108 yds and a TD in his first game against the best defense in football. So what if the Jets beat a crappy Lions team and Darnold threw for 180 yds, that says nothing.I swear people will use anything, at any time, to justify any position.

In 3 years we will likely know if this was the right decision or not, today we know nothing other than Barkley will be exceptional if he doesn't get hurt, and Darnold has a chance to be really good too but its way to early to tell. Thats what we know.

had a ton of time and his team was able to run the ball. My main takeaways were that a)He looked good. Very good. Those darts he throws rolling out to his right are uber impressive. b)He'd never had done that for the Giants because the Giants stink.

In comment 14071124 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

believed Darnold or Rosen was a franchise QB, would many of you still lobby to spend the #2 pick on the best QB available? Do you take someone there because he is the best QB available even if you have concerns about their ceiling in the NFL? I am not trying to say that is what Gettleman and Shurmur actually believe, I have zero insight into that. But if that fact pattern was true, how many of you would still wish they had just taken the best QB available, regardless of their own convictions on their talent?

Well, I would have to say that leaves a bigger question: should these two guys be in charge of decision making going forward? Answer: No.

Additionally, the answer to your question is that YOU TRADE DOWN. Its asset management and they failed. Miserably. Just like they did when they used next year's 3rd round pick on SAM BEAL. Maximizing asset value is something that escapes this group. Maybe they need one of those "computer guys" to help them out.

No they are not. This again transitioned into a Darnold versus Barkley thread.

Read my OP, I specifically note that this was not QB envy. I noted that its really nice to see how a team operates when a QB has time, you can run the ball with power, and control the clock when needed.

Yes, the thread went there. But my intent was not to have a QB debate, it was to address an enormous problem that continues to plague this team. If Saquon wasn't Saquon, he gets tackled by Miles Jack at the line of scrimmage, and ends up with about 35-40 rushing yards on the day and no TD. Yes, glad we have the kid because he's special.

But damn, we cannot rely on just magic. We need fundamentally sound line play, starting this week at Dallas.

Advocate. Build the lines.

That said, we are probably very lucky to have our current GM, DC, GM group.

That said, Shurm and Patricia, assuming, for one game, that you can just drop back ...and run your A list pass plays;

One thing about shanny/falcs or jets outside zone running, you possibly make more hay from the OL you actually DO have, and that goes to the pass game as well.

In other words, whereas outside zone running may seem more complex, it's probably easier on an OL that just basic pass protection simple drop backs given the state of DL play r now. Same thing three years now.

Not diwn.

Lucky

In comment 14071149 Justlurking said:

Quote:

In comment 14071124 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: believed Darnold or Rosen was a franchise QB, would many of you still lobby to spend the #2 pick on the best QB available? Do you take someone there because he is the best QB available even if you have concerns about their ceiling in the NFL? I am not trying to say that is what Gettleman and Shurmur actually believe, I have zero insight into that. But if that fact pattern was true, how many of you would still wish they had just taken the best QB available, regardless of their own convictions on their talent? Well, I would have to say that leaves a bigger question: should these two guys be in charge of decision making going forward? Answer: No. Additionally, the answer to your question is that YOU TRADE DOWN. Its asset management and they failed. Miserably. Just like they did when they used next year's 3rd round pick on SAM BEAL. Maximizing asset value is something that escapes this group. Maybe they need one of those "computer guys" to help them out.

So you have concluded that Darnold is a franchise QB and that anyone who has not already concluded that should not be in an NFL front office? You should probably go back to just lurking.

You should also realize that "trade down" is not just an option you select from a drop down menu when your team is on the clock. Someone has to be willing to trade with you and offer you reasonable compensation for the trade down.

In short, you are basing most of your conclusions on your own snap opinions rather than any objective information.

In comment 14071149 Justlurking said:

Quote:

In comment 14071124 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: believed Darnold or Rosen was a franchise QB, would many of you still lobby to spend the #2 pick on the best QB available? Do you take someone there because he is the best QB available even if you have concerns about their ceiling in the NFL? I am not trying to say that is what Gettleman and Shurmur actually believe, I have zero insight into that. But if that fact pattern was true, how many of you would still wish they had just taken the best QB available, regardless of their own convictions on their talent? Well, I would have to say that leaves a bigger question: should these two guys be in charge of decision making going forward? Answer: No. Additionally, the answer to your question is that YOU TRADE DOWN. Its asset management and they failed. Miserably. Just like they did when they used next year's 3rd round pick on SAM BEAL. Maximizing asset value is something that escapes this group. Maybe they need one of those "computer guys" to help them out.

I'd suggest you go back to lurking as your username suggests. Read more speak less. But if you choose to continue posting can I make a suggestion...

Change your username to Just-a-Moron. 👍

In comment 14071173 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 14071149 Justlurking said: Quote: In comment 14071124 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: believed Darnold or Rosen was a franchise QB, would many of you still lobby to spend the #2 pick on the best QB available? Do you take someone there because he is the best QB available even if you have concerns about their ceiling in the NFL? I am not trying to say that is what Gettleman and Shurmur actually believe, I have zero insight into that. But if that fact pattern was true, how many of you would still wish they had just taken the best QB available, regardless of their own convictions on their talent? Well, I would have to say that leaves a bigger question: should these two guys be in charge of decision making going forward? Answer: No. Additionally, the answer to your question is that YOU TRADE DOWN. Its asset management and they failed. Miserably. Just like they did when they used next year's 3rd round pick on SAM BEAL. Maximizing asset value is something that escapes this group. Maybe they need one of those "computer guys" to help them out. So you have concluded that Darnold is a franchise QB and that anyone who has not already concluded that should not be in an NFL front office? You should probably go back to just lurking. You should also realize that "trade down" is not just an option you select from a drop down menu when your team is on the clock. Someone has to be willing to trade with you and offer you reasonable compensation for the trade down. In short, you are basing most of your conclusions on your own snap opinions rather than any objective information.

Hi Mike from Ohio.

Maybe the news didnt get to you in Ohio, but our GM - without prompting - explained that he ran up to the podium, took NO calls and only waited 5 minutes to put in the pick because that was the minimum amount of time that a team could use before submitting the pick.

In other words, while bashing me for not using objective information, you have overlooked the very information that Gettleman presented to the media and fans in connection with this pick.

I'll go back to lurking when you stick to Ohio. Deal?

In comment 14071176 Canton said:

Quote:

In comment 14071149 Justlurking said: Quote: In comment 14071124 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: believed Darnold or Rosen was a franchise QB, would many of you still lobby to spend the #2 pick on the best QB available? Do you take someone there because he is the best QB available even if you have concerns about their ceiling in the NFL? I am not trying to say that is what Gettleman and Shurmur actually believe, I have zero insight into that. But if that fact pattern was true, how many of you would still wish they had just taken the best QB available, regardless of their own convictions on their talent? Well, I would have to say that leaves a bigger question: should these two guys be in charge of decision making going forward? Answer: No. Additionally, the answer to your question is that YOU TRADE DOWN. Its asset management and they failed. Miserably. Just like they did when they used next year's 3rd round pick on SAM BEAL. Maximizing asset value is something that escapes this group. Maybe they need one of those "computer guys" to help them out. I'd suggest you go back to lurking as your username suggests. Read more speak less. But if you choose to continue posting can I make a suggestion... Change your username to Just-a-Moron. 👍

Personal insults are always the way to prove your point. If your point is that you don't have anything substantive to say.

I think the moron is the guy who went all in on a 3-13 team and gave away next year's 3rd round pick for Sam Beal.

Totally ass raped the Giants. Should have Rivers.

see what I did??

opinion. In addition then completely ignores a 108 yd, 1 TD game against the best D in football, but belly's on about a QB throwing for 198 yds, 2 TDs, and 1 Int. This is a relatively normal game in the NFL.

In comment 14071197 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

opinion. In addition then completely ignores a 108 yd, 1 TD game against the best D in football, but belly's on about a QB throwing for 198 yds, 2 TDs, and 1 Int. This is a relatively normal game in the NFL.

It�s not one game. The issue is asset management and Gettleman has failed to show any idea how to maximize value of his assets. Refuses to trade down, makes fun of analytics, gives away next year�s 3rd round pick for a 165lb CB. This team had and has major gaping holes and there was an opportunity to commit to a real rebuild. Instead Gettleman reached for the duct tape and rubber cement.

then at Cleveland on Thursday night. It's gonna be a joy around here when they're 3-0.

1. draft a qb......a #1 pick that wouldn't play because of Eli, but I think would get playing time during the year.....this would mean we would be in rebuild mode, with Eli probably gone the next season....

2. Trade the #2 pick for more picks/players, with the aim at fixing the OL/team....and Eli just holding the reins as the team rebuilds....

3. Draft Barkley....play for now....

Only time will tell, which was the correct move...one game does not answer the question....

But I wouldn't have drafted Barkley.....I wouldn't have signed Solder for that kind of money....sometimes you have to rebuild for the future and it will take time, and more losing seasons....I would rather rebuild with losing seasons, rather than think we are one or two players away and continue to falter....

The draft, DG, the HC.....we will either be right or wrong.....but no one wants to wait 3 years or more to find out.....

Debate will not be settled by who outperforms the other player. Barring injury, both will have good careers in my estimation. The Giants ability to transition from Eli in the next few years will be the real test...if they can come out of this mini rebuild AND hit on a rookie qb? This team will be nasty for a while.

Giants should have drafted a QB. Look at what the price was to go from #4 to #1. The Giants do not understand asset allocation. They use premium assets on players that should be UDFA's like punters and retuners and ST LB's.

OJ Simpson wasn't enough to win a championship and Barry Sanders wasn't enough to win championship and Eric Dickerson wasn't enough to win a championship. RB's are complimentary players they are not difference makers.

It's not just that the Giants didn't draft a QB they drafted the easiest position to fill in the NFL and the most fungible.

In comment 14071258 arniefez said:

Quote:

Giants should have drafted a QB. Look at what the price was to go from #4 to #1. The Giants do not understand asset allocation. They use premium assets on players that should be UDFA's like punters and retuners and ST LB's. OJ Simpson wasn't enough to win a championship and Barry Sanders wasn't enough to win championship and Eric Dickerson wasn't enough to win a championship. RB's are complimentary players they are not difference makers. It's not just that the Giants didn't draft a QB they drafted the easiest position to fill in the NFL and the most fungible.

Explain again? How did it not work for NYG? I'm very confused.

players, (which I think is done, but whatever), Barkley is complementing an elite WR, an elite slot receiver, an elite QB and a potentially elite pass-catching TE. That's exactly the group of skill people that you *want* to complement. And then when they do something good...you compliment them.

Are giants suck because we didn't trade down idiots. How do you get to be so stupid?

because Eli has no time it seems (to me) that our WRs are always running one yard in front of or past the sticks with the DBs still glued to them.

I can't wait until we have a functional OL again. It's been forever.

In comment 14071266 Bill L said:

Quote:

players, (which I think is done, but whatever), Barkley is complementing an elite WR, an elite slot receiver, an elite QB and a potentially elite pass-catching TE. That's exactly the group of skill people that you *want* to complement. And then when they do something good...you compliment them.

Eli hasn�t been an elite QB in years. He�s a pedestrian at best QB. His game check, however, is elite.

the Giants have simultaneously achieved (1) not being contenders in the present; and (2) giving fans little hope for the future. Clearly sticking with a 37 year old quarterback, signing a mediocre left tackle to a king's ransom, drafting a running back and signing Beckham to a huge deal were moves made to be a contender in the present. Whether you want to blame Eli or the offensive line, the consensus seems to be that the offense is not good. Maybe things will change on a dime in the next few weeks. Anything is possible. But the offense has been miserable for more than 2 seasons now, so I think the smart money would be on it continuing to be miserable.

If this is a 6 to 8 win team this year, the second pick in the draft (a pick most franchises only get once in a generation) was wasted, regardless of Barkley's stats. A proper rebuild would have required turning that pick into either a potential franchise quarterback or trading it to accumulate more draft picks. Instead, they took a running back who, like a new car, begins depreciating the second he is acquired. A young quarterback would have a chance to develop with the hope of peaking as a player in a few years when the rest of the pieces are in place. Barkley, on the other hand, is the best player he is ever going to be right now - when the rest of the team is no good. Even if we assume the Giants are able to draft extraordinarily well over the next few seasons, can find and develop their next quarterback, and successfully build the rest of the roster into a championship-contending group, by the time that all that happens, Barkley will probably be done.

If the goal for the organization was to maximize the number of exciting players on the roster, win a respectable number of games so as not to be embarrassed like they were last season, and keep the fan base out of all out mutiny, then their offseason makes sense. However, their offseason makes zero sense as a "rebuild" and if the goal was to seriously contend this year, then they should be held to that. If they are not at least a playoff team this year, then by their own standards this past offseason was a failure. When you have a 37 year old quarterback with no plan of succession at the position and draft a running back with a likely shelf life of 3-5 years at the top of the first round, a 6-8 win season is not "progress" - it is bitter failure.

In comment 14071053 Bold Ruler said:

Quote:

.

It absolutely is. The quality of pass protection is degrading - the way to mitigate is with a quarterback that can move, and throw accurately while doing so.

In comment 14071324 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 14071053 Bold Ruler said: Quote: . It absolutely is. The quality of pass protection is degrading - the way to mitigate is with a quarterback that can move, and throw accurately while doing so.

Brady, Foles and Ryan. Bortles decent mobility although not exactly Michael Vick.

Lot of humor on this thread. It must really suck for some of you to be fans.

In comment 14071324 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 14071053 Bold Ruler said: Quote: . It absolutely is. The quality of pass protection is degrading - the way to mitigate is with a quarterback that can move, and throw accurately while doing so.

I'd say semi-mobility is required. You don't have to be Mike Vick to succeed, but you have to have some wheels. One of the reasons I liked Darnold as the pick for us. He can make killer throws when things aren't perfect (O-line, his feet, etc.)

In comment 14071298 eugibs said:

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the Giants have simultaneously achieved (1) not being contenders in the present; and (2) giving fans little hope for the future. Clearly sticking with a 37 year old quarterback, signing a mediocre left tackle to a king's ransom, drafting a running back and signing Beckham to a huge deal were moves made to be a contender in the present. Whether you want to blame Eli or the offensive line, the consensus seems to be that the offense is not good. Maybe things will change on a dime in the next few weeks. Anything is possible. But the offense has been miserable for more than 2 seasons now, so I think the smart money would be on it continuing to be miserable. If this is a 6 to 8 win team this year, the second pick in the draft (a pick most franchises only get once in a generation) was wasted, regardless of Barkley's stats. A proper rebuild would have required turning that pick into either a potential franchise quarterback or trading it to accumulate more draft picks. Instead, they took a running back who, like a new car, begins depreciating the second he is acquired. A young quarterback would have a chance to develop with the hope of peaking as a player in a few years when the rest of the pieces are in place. Barkley, on the other hand, is the best player he is ever going to be right now - when the rest of the team is no good. Even if we assume the Giants are able to draft extraordinarily well over the next few seasons, can find and develop their next quarterback, and successfully build the rest of the roster into a championship-contending group, by the time that all that happens, Barkley will probably be done. If the goal for the organization was to maximize the number of exciting players on the roster, win a respectable number of games so as not to be embarrassed like they were last season, and keep the fan base out of all out mutiny, then their offseason makes sense. However, their offseason makes zero sense as a "rebuild" and if the goal was to seriously contend this year, then they should be held to that. If they are not at least a playoff team this year, then by their own standards this past offseason was a failure. When you have a 37 year old quarterback with no plan of succession at the position and draft a running back with a likely shelf life of 3-5 years at the top of the first round, a 6-8 win season is not "progress" - it is bitter failure.

This is spot on. I don�t think fans want to hear this, they want to gleefully believe that the giants drafted a generational talent who may have no major impact on the team�s winning now or in the future. There needed to be a direction set this past offseason, the Giants chose the present. This is fine, but the team as constructed does not look win now, or even next season. This leaves us with a team looking for the long haul, but with so much uncertainty in the Giants qb situation, the long haul looks bleaker than the present. Thus, it brings us back to the Giants as an organization with no direction.

You're not wrong about OL play deteriorating. But the mobile QB is not sustainable.

The mobile QB will allow you windows of greatness and opportunity, but he will always get injured. Russell Wilson seems like the lone exception to the rule.

As far as implementing a system of two of these guys to mitigate the injury risk, good luck trying to find that.

On a personal note, Deshaun Watson impressed me enough in college with his two performances against Nick Saban defenses to make me re-think my own opinion and I wound up wanting to take him in the 1st round of the 2017 draft if he fell to us. I loved him, and I still love all that he brings as a QB but his injury has me spooked once again.

In comment 14071344 Chris684 said:

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You're not wrong about OL play deteriorating. But the mobile QB is not sustainable. The mobile QB will allow you windows of greatness and opportunity, but he will always get injured. Russell Wilson seems like the lone exception to the rule. As far as implementing a system of two of these guys to mitigate the injury risk, good luck trying to find that. On a personal note, Deshaun Watson impressed me enough in college with his two performances against Nick Saban defenses to make me re-think my own opinion and I wound up wanting to take him in the 1st round of the 2017 draft if he fell to us. I loved him, and I still love all that he brings as a QB but his injury has me spooked once again.

I'm not necessarily talking about a Vick level of mobility. I'm talking about QBs with the ability to create throwing opportunities with their legs, and (crucially) the ability to deliver the ball accurately on the move. I thought Darnold exhibited that yesterday. A great example was on the third down completion to Enunwa that seemed certain to be ruled incomplete through replay. Darnold did a great job extending the play with his legs.

Or look at what Rodgers did on the long Cobb TD Sunday night. He extended the play, causing the two deep safeties to eventually widen and leave a huge hole through which Cobb could turn a 15 yard gain into a long TD.

There are a couple grandmaster level guys still operating from the pocket (Brady and Brees), but that's about it at the upper echelon.

In comment 14071109 GiantNatty said:

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I still can't believe that in arguably the best QB draft class since 1983, we went RB with the #2 pick. Un-frggin-believeable. Out of fear of avoiding "Quarterback hell," Gettleman dropped us right smack-dab in the middle of it. It could be a long, long time before this team is competitive again because we lack a winning presence at the most important position in professional sports.

Wooo easy Giant natty we aren�t going to win many games this year

Next year comes the QB

any time spent outside of the pocket is dangerous.

The Packers have already lost 2 seasons of prime SB contention after Rodgers sustained injuries outside the pocket.

He's also a tough comparison considering he may just be the most gifted QB of all-time in terms of physical ability.

What's more important to me is pocket presence. This is something that has deteriorated with Eli as he has stood behind poor OL after poor OL. He has been hearing the footsteps, which needs to improve, but in the preseason and after 1 week I do think his presence has appeared to be more sharp.

and that throw to Allison was perfect. But, boy, was I salivating at the 5-6 seconds he had to stand there calmly and survey the field.

chained to a 1000 lb anchor (OL)!

A mistake not playing these guys in the preseason more

You get better at football by playing football .......

In comment 14071053 Bold Ruler said:

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.

Been hearing that since Randall Cunningham. There will always be a place for quality passers even if they can't run.

Another great example how the dumbest posters on this board are also usually the most aggressive.

If Gettleman ruined your team by drafting Barkley, maybe you should stick it to him by rooting for another team, and vomiting your idiocy on their fan boards instead of this one?

Nobody will miss your idiotic hot takes.

In comment 14071258 arniefez said:

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OJ Simpson wasn't enough to win a championship and Barry Sanders wasn't enough to win championship and Eric Dickerson wasn't enough to win a championship. RB's are complimentary players they are not difference makers.

And Dan Marino was not enough to win a championship. Neither was Jim Kelly. Neither was Dan Fouts...

Teams win championships, not individual position players. That is a very basic concept that most fans understand. Hopefully this helps you.

The Jets PR kill it almost every time!!! Our PR game just flat out sucks and has for a long time!

In comment 14071407 Mike from Ohio said:

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In comment 14071258 arniefez said: Quote: OJ Simpson wasn't enough to win a championship and Barry Sanders wasn't enough to win championship and Eric Dickerson wasn't enough to win a championship. RB's are complimentary players they are not difference makers. And Dan Marino was not enough to win a championship. Neither was Jim Kelly. Neither was Dan Fouts... Teams win championships, not individual position players. That is a very basic concept that most fans understand. Hopefully this helps you.

+1, and Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles, and Joe Flacco did win. Its the team, and it can be built in different ways.

and around which situation is it easier to build a team? Eli is 37 and will cost us $45M over the next 2 years. Darnold is 21 and will cost the Jets $30M over the next 4 years.

Which situation makes it easier to construct a team?

Replaced the perceived weak link, Wesley Johnson C, with a starter salary FA, Spencer Long. Easy move since WJ contract was up.

Made commitment to continuity by actually re-signing all of their backup o-line from last year. The interior were all UFA eligible, the OT needed an RFA tender.

No stars here. James Carpenter LG probably is most talented for his position, but he had a pretty bad year and was rumored to be vulnerable.

Just providing a factual snapshot of another teams o-line on-going strategy. Too early for judgement although Darnold's mobility covers an individual sin.

In comment 14071407 Mike from Ohio said:

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And Dan Marino was not enough to win a championship. Neither was Jim Kelly. Neither was Dan Fouts... Teams win championships, not individual position players. That is a very basic concept that most fans understand. Hopefully this helps you.

Well, between 2 of those 3, they got to the SB 5X - 1 for Marino and 4 for Kelly. And Kelly was a 47 FG from at least winning one. So getting there, IMV, is a big deal, too.

And while you list those 3 great QBs, there is an endless list of other great QBs who have won SBs. So the common denominator most of the time is indeed a great QB. Yes, a team has to have balance and quality on both sides of the ball, but it's a helluva a lot easier to succeed with some longevity with the great QB.

Btw, almost all of you aren't focused on my original point. Can we address RT, have better execution on o line, and do some due diligence in waivers to improve it?

I love ELi. Give him time he's going to crush. Equally, you give Saquon the same running lanes the Jets had last night, he rushes for more yards than Darnold throws.

True story. Get focused guys.

In comment 14071402 Mike from Ohio said:

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Another great example how the dumbest posters on this board are also usually the most aggressive. If Gettleman ruined your team by drafting Barkley, maybe you should stick it to him by rooting for another team, and vomiting your idiocy on their fan boards instead of this one? Nobody will miss your idiotic hot takes.

All you have done is lob personal insults in response to my posts. Sorry you can't handle opposing views and fair criticism of an organization that seems to have no long term plan or direction. There is substantive discussion here that people are having without name calling.

Take a lap. Perhaps all the way back to Ohio.

Run the ball, stop the run, rush the passer...that wins championships.

Our Front 7 has looked ok. We had some rush, got a sack, without our best pass rusher (the other Eli had an encouraging game too).

We likely have a franchise RB.

Our OL just played the toughest defense in the league. They looked awful at times...but we almost won the game. We need a new RT, no doubt about it. That's coming next year for sure.

We are on the path.

In comment 14071443 Go Terps said:

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and around which situation is it easier to build a team? Eli is 37 and will cost us $45M over the next 2 years. Darnold is 21 and will cost the Jets $30M over the next 4 years. Which situation makes it easier to construct a team?

Right but that wasn�t the scenario. The scenario was Darnold sitting here for atleast a year, paying both and then maybe cutting Eli next year.

If this was a clean slate like you suggest, it�s onviously a no brainer.

In comment 14071503 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 14071443 Go Terps said: Quote: and around which situation is it easier to build a team? Eli is 37 and will cost us $45M over the next 2 years. Darnold is 21 and will cost the Jets $30M over the next 4 years. Which situation makes it easier to construct a team? Right but that wasn�t the scenario. The scenario was Darnold sitting here for atleast a year, paying both and then maybe cutting Eli next year. If this was a clean slate like you suggest, it�s onviously a no brainer.

The scenario would have been to release Eli this offseason. I remembered that there was a possible out in his contract, but couldn't remember the details. So I looked them up. See below from an article last November:

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If he's cut after this season: The Giants would have $12.4 million in dead money on their 2018 salary cap while freeing up $9.8 million in cap space. If Manning was designated a post-June 1 cut, the Giants would split the dead money over two years - $6.2 million in 2018 and 2019 - and would save $16 million in 2018 cap space. The catch there is the money would not come off their books until after June 1, meaning they would not have the cap space until after free agency.

Cutting Eli and drafting Darnold appeared to be completely realistic possibilities under the cap.
Link - ( New Window )

Even if you bought into the presmise that RB are merely complementary
Bill L : 11:18 am : link : reply
players, (which I think is done, but whatever), Barkley is complementing an elite WR, an elite slot receiver, an elite QB and a potentially elite pass-catching TE. That's exactly the group of skill people that you *want* to complement. And then when they do something good...you compliment them.

Bill the only person you can put that "elite tag" on is OBj.....

Eli is at the point in his career where he can not achieve "eliteness".......our slot receiver has never come close to that title and is more Randle-esque than elite....As for EE, I give him a pass in this game coming off concussion protocol.....but if you fan on blocks and have the dropsies, and have yet to achieve the so-called status given to him, no linebacker can keep up with him, he still has a long way to go.....I just hope he gets there....

I thought SB instantly made this OL better.....he doesn't...every run where he makes good yardage, it's because he runs, not where the run was intended, because the hole is not there....I was more shocked at Hernandez than I was of Omameh....We spent a lot of money on a LT, that's not even a top 10 LT, thank you Jerry Reese.....as for Flowers, speed rushers are going to kill him all year.....it's amazing he knows the snap count, and the guy on the other side of the line, moves before he does....

was far from the guaranteed correct decision.

What if you left 1 more Super Bowl run on the table?

What if you put a young QB like Darnold behind this offensive line?

What if Barkley becomes a HOFer and Darnold a bust?

It seems so easy, except it's not. The Colts were supposed to have had everything line up for them with Peyton getting hurt just in time to have the #1 pick fall in their laps for Luck, except it hasn't turned out that way.

In comment 14071578 Chris684 said:

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was far from the guaranteed correct decision. What if you left 1 more Super Bowl run on the table? What if you put a young QB like Darnold behind this offensive line? What if Barkley becomes a HOFer and Darnold a bust? It seems so easy, except it's not. The Colts were supposed to have had everything line up for them with Peyton getting hurt just in time to have the #1 pick fall in their laps for Luck, except it hasn't turned out that way.

What if Sam Darnold turns out to be the best QB in history? What if Eli Manning suffers a career ending injury?

You can "what if" either way until you are blue in the face, making up almost any scenario. But you can't "what if" the ages and contracts of these two players. In a vacuum, the QB who is 16 years younger than and 25% the cost of the other QB is the preferable option 100 times out 100.
The decision to move forward with Eli instead of drafting Darnold can only be justified using highly subjective arguments.

Have you heard Lombardi on the Ringer today? Put a lot of the game on Eli. He just isn�t making enough plays. There is so much pressure this year. Hell, this game this week is huge. It can�t be stressed enough.

In comment 14071578 Chris684 said:

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It seems so easy, except it's not. The Colts were supposed to have had everything line up for them with Peyton getting hurt just in time to have the #1 pick fall in their laps for Luck, except it hasn't turned out that way.

Just as a quick aside here but I'm not sure that is fair to Luck.

In his first three years, basically his real career as he's been hurt the last three years, he led to Colts to three straight years of 11-5, so 33-15. Pretty damn good. And that's without a good line, excellent WRs, and good TE and a competent RB - all things his predecessor had year in, year out...

In comment 14071696 Sean said:

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Have you heard Lombardi on the Ringer today? Put a lot of the game on Eli. He just isn�t making enough plays. There is so much pressure this year. Hell, this game this week is huge. It can�t be stressed enough.

I haven't listened yet.

I thought Eli was poor. He was inaccurate and I think he has some blame for the pick six. He also made a mistake on the two point conversion checking to a run.

The line was garbage, but I'm tired of excuses and rationalizations.

In comment 14071703 Go Terps said:

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In comment 14071696 Sean said: Quote: Have you heard Lombardi on the Ringer today? Put a lot of the game on Eli. He just isn�t making enough plays. There is so much pressure this year. Hell, this game this week is huge. It can�t be stressed enough. I haven't listened yet. I thought Eli was poor. He was inaccurate and I think he has some blame for the pick six. He also made a mistake on the two point conversion checking to a run. The line was garbage, but I'm tired of excuses and rationalizations.

The rationilazations are over. A lot of teams have crappy lines. Plays need to be made off script. You can�t miss throws against a defense like Jacksonville.

Some people are hopeful after watching Sunday, but for me it�s the opposite. It feels like more of the same and it�s very troubling to me.

and underthrowing Shepard on the fourth down play were killers - those are throws Prime Eli completes blindfolded. Missing Odell on the crossing pattern in the end zone is excusable - bad snap, heavy pressure, Ramsey in coverage there. You don't want to turn it over and cost yourself three points.

Eli's identity has always been the deep ball and fourth quarter heroics, and those are no longer sure things. It's tough carrying him at that price tag.

so I have a pretty good view of the all 22. Eli looked plenty accurate to me, and made some very nice throws on timing routes. That being said, I was firmly in the "draft a QB" camp, albeit I wanted Rosen over Darnold. Everything that we have seen from Darnold has me worried that this regime put us in the worst possible spot for the next decade plus. Obviously, the script hasn't been written, but Darnold is off to a very nice start.

Jacksonville was a 10-6 team last year in a crap division due to Watson/Luck injuries. They are not the '72 Dolphins, and Fournette played one quarter. We should've won that game.

In comment 14071711 bceagle05 said:

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and underthrowing Shepard on the fourth down play were killers - those are throws Prime Eli completes blindfolded. Missing Odell on the crossing pattern in the end zone is excusable - bad snap, heavy pressure, Ramsey in coverage there. You don't want to turn it over and cost yourself three points. Eli's identity has always been the deep ball and fourth quarter heroics, and those are no longer sure things. It's tough carrying him at that price tag.

JMO but the play to Odell in the endzone was on Eli.. He didn't hang in the pocket.. There was a bad snap but Eli caught the ball when he saw the rush he threw off his Backfoot.
Eli obviously aint a coward but he bailed on that pass big time

In comment 14071707 Sean said:

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In comment 14071703 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 14071696 Sean said: Quote: Have you heard Lombardi on the Ringer today? Put a lot of the game on Eli. He just isn�t making enough plays. There is so much pressure this year. Hell, this game this week is huge. It can�t be stressed enough. I haven't listened yet. I thought Eli was poor. He was inaccurate and I think he has some blame for the pick six. He also made a mistake on the two point conversion checking to a run. The line was garbage, but I'm tired of excuses and rationalizations. The rationilazations are over. A lot of teams have crappy lines. Plays need to be made off script. You can�t miss throws against a defense like Jacksonville. Some people are hopeful after watching Sunday, but for me it�s the opposite. It feels like more of the same and it�s very troubling to me.

You are both spot on. Fans cannot continue to blame flowers (who is putrid) week in and week out. I�ve posted this a few times, but what we saw Sunday was merely a continuation of the last two years. At some point, the 20m per year qb needs to make a few plays to help his team win the game. It�s simply been too long since I�ve seen Eli elevate his team. If he cannot do that at his current salary, then he either needs to take a massive pay cut so the Giants can build that line allowing him to operate with minimal pressure or it�s likely near the end of his time.

We all wanted to jump on mcadoo last year, I get it I did as well, nonetheless I think there was some merit to his thinking that Eli struggled to operate a modern NFL offense. Doesn�t excuse just how awful of a coach he was, but I think he may have been ahead of the curve in understanding Eli�s capabilities and limitations. Again, a 20m per year qb needs to elevate his team above his circumstances. It�s just not the case for a qb who needs everything around him to be near perfect to function at a high level.

This week will be very telling, the Dallas defense is not great by any stretch so I would expect a 30 point performance out of the Giants. If we continue to see the Giants go 3 and out and fail to produce any quality offense, I do not believe it a stretch to think the season is likely headed no where.

Again, I revert back to the thinking that the Giants front office seems directionless to me. If it�s about winning now, it doesn�t appear that the Giants have put the personnel in place to allow their 37 year old qb to operate a maximum capacity. If it�s about winning in the future than the Giants entire offseason and, more importantly, draft strategy was simply a gigantic failure.

In comment 14071711 bceagle05 said:

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and underthrowing Shepard on the fourth down play were killers - those are throws Prime Eli completes blindfolded. Missing Odell on the crossing pattern in the end zone is excusable - bad snap, heavy pressure, Ramsey in coverage there. You don't want to turn it over and cost yourself three points. Eli's identity has always been the deep ball and fourth quarter heroics, and those are no longer sure things. It's tough carrying him at that price tag.

100% spot on. Eli's play wasn't the reason we lost, but he certainly wasn't good enough for us to win. With the needle hovering around mediocre, his salary has been a burden that we just can't overcome.

As for drafting a QB instead of Barkley - we didn't have to cut Eli this season to do that. We could just as easily have drafted one and let Eli play out this season while he came up to speed. The Cardinals are doing that as are the Bills, and it's not the worst thing given the level of offense played in college.

Lose site of the possibility that both individual players on each side of the ball will get better as they become more comfortable in their new systems therefore elevating their respective units to overall better play. Time will show us what players and coaches are worth, but we're going to have to be a little more patient around here.

Eli is making quality starter money now for a QB and is nowhere near elite money.