Trying to make ( 4.42 forty) Evan Engram a tight end ? - when they are officially HURTING for somebody to start opposite OBJ.
Not for lack of trying, he gets pummeled by 300+ pound linemen, I keep asking myself, why Giants, why ?
Stop wasting him attending linemen meetings, value him for what he is - a good big, fast, agile Wide Receiver; teach him how to be a great one then put him in front of one of these, till he sees this machine in his dreams ....
http://www.tennisballmachines.co.uk/americanfootballmachine/fgfootballpassingmachine2002.jpg
For the moment he is more hype than substance, but there is plenty of season to go and it is just his second year. I just hope he does not become a coach killer who tantalizes with possible talent but shits bed with key drops and failed blocks.
He's still learning, but you'd swear the guy can't do anything but run patterns.
Meanwhile, Ellison's blocking has been suspect for somebody where it is his strength.
Acting like Engram is a terrible blocker is just way off the mark
Ellison was there for 29 snaps or 41%.
And we really don't use an H-Back in the traditional sense.
And that's the problem. If he's out the alone being asked to block traditional TE assignments, the offense will suffer. He can't block DLs and most of the LBs out the are bigger than him as well. This was the same myopia that McAdoo fell into. "Engram is a TE" Well you can line him up there but you can't expect legitimate TE blocking performance.
Jesus.
engram - ( New Window )
Interesting to see a comment on Ellison's blocking -- I keyed on him a lot of the game because I think he's a overpaid, and thought he did a representative job on a number of plays.
Probably the same people who say Ogletree can't cover anyone.
We have a Stellar wide receiver (OBJ) who demands and gets double and triple team coverage on every play.
Opposite him we have a DECOY - Latimer; while we have a pure athlete wrestling 300 pound uglies, something is very wrong with that picture.
I might sign-up for a "Jordan Reed" type role for Engram if we had a Redskins type O-line, but we don't. Our O-line needs TE blocking help, every play, it seems.
It just seems a "crying shame" to see a guy who is faster, quicker than most NFL CBs "stuck" in the TE role.
Chipping DLs isn't what TEs are asked to do. TEs are expected to take on DLs one on at least pretty regularly.
Campbell was a one man wrecking crew there isn't a single
weak spot on that defense . Add in Myles Jack who could easily been a top 5 pick is healthy and playing like one.
Ellison is an adequate blocker, but the flip side is that you have people literally saying that Engram CAN'T block.
They both have roles. Engram is there to create mismatches. Ellison is strictly for underneath routes and for blocking on run plays and that shows in his snap counts.
While Engram may not get 90% of the snaps in every game, it is clear that Shurmur understands he creates mismatches and will utilize him as such.
Sigh.
And that's where spending time during the week on prep with the TE/OL and the WR/TE groups keeps him from solely focusing on honing his craft as pass catcher.
Because whatever you think of him, he's not going to make a mark as a blocking tight end, it's as a pass catcher.
Because whatever you think of him, he's not going to make a mark as a blocking tight end, it's as a pass catcher.
My point maybe better expressed. If he even becomes average as a blocker it would be a pleasant surprise. He is already a plus receiver and has potential to be real force.
He would make a decent WR, but he'll be a game-changer at TE. They will split him out occasionally, but that's not where you want him to spend the bulk of the time.
There have been quite a few TE's that had Wr-like speed and they've thrived at TE.
My concern with Engram isn't his blocking but his drops. His role isn't to be Zeke Mowatt or even Mark Bavaro. He needs to be at least a minimally competent blocker. But he's got to be a reliable receiver, even before he's a game-breaker. If he's got a lot of drops, that negates his role. You can't be a receiving tight end and have questionable hands.
I think he (at 235 lbs) could be a feared destroyer of smaller CBs and safeties (in the deep zones) blocking for & trying to chase down Barkley.
I read, somewhere that Latimer's role involves some of this; I submit to you that Engram could be a lot batter at this - another Plaxico (in that respect). Recall how good he was at "mowing down" little guys, down-field ?
What Engram needs is for the passing or running game to do well while he's in, then the opponents either bring in more speed to defend the pass and he can block for the run or they bring in more bulk to slow the run and he can get open. In base sets, he's useless if our OL can't protect or get movement in the running game. He's a move ahead of where we need to be honestly. IF IF IF we had a competent OL he would be a nightmare but he's a piece that would be great IF IF IF we could block and we can't.
I'm curious, which TE can block Defensive linemen?
You said it best.
In some ways, he reminds me of Amani Toomer - a guy with talent that just needs to dedicate himself to hard work
Engram has elite talent. I just hope we don't waste what he has by trying to "pound a square peg into a round hole".
You said it best.
In some ways, he reminds me of Amani Toomer - a guy with talent that just needs to dedicate himself to hard work
Engram has elite talent. I just hope we don't waste what he has by trying to "pound a square peg into a round hole".
Good to hear from you.
I went back for my 50th high school reunion a couple of years ago. as you know, football is king in Texas - it was great to celebrate their State 6A division championship.
About Engram, you're right, he's gonna be fine, where ever they play him. But I tell you, that kid can fly !
If the TE was a world class receiver, maybe that would tip the scales. But he drops the ball. We don't need another receiver who drops the ball. We need a TE who can keep Eli clean.
Strictly speaking, that’s probably 12 personnel. But that group can give you 11 and 21 looks that would make your head spin.
He's a faster Aaron Hernandez (but not a murderer and with worse hands).
Point is though, he's not a traditional TE.
Now, not to be understated the Patriots had the luxury of an elite blocking and receiving TE with Gronk to have on the field with Hernandez, but here is Aaron Hernandez usage in 2011 (the season the Giants beat them in SB XLVI).
Of the two, Hernandez is actually the primary target when both are on the field. In those circumstances, he was targeted 104 times for 75 receptions. Gronkowski had 87 targets and 64 receptions when Hernandez was on the field.
The difference, of course, is that Gronkowski saw many more snaps as the lone tight end. Hernandez acts as much more of a wild card in the offense.
As John McTigue noted in the Stats & Info Blog, Hernandez lined up as a wide receiver for 505 snaps compared to just 255 snaps as a tight end on the line. There were even 61 snaps where he lined up at running back.
Of the two, Gronkowski is far more likely to stay in and pass-block. Hernandez was a pass-blocker on just 2.2 percent of the passing plays for which he was on the field. Compare that to 11.5 percent for Gronkowski.
Indeed, Hernandez was a pass-blocker on only 11 plays in 2011. That's the same number as Kevin Faulk. The only tight end who pass-blocks less often is San Diego's Antonio Gates....
You don't move Engram to WR. Even if he lines up at WR on some plays having the deception of is he going to motion out to a traditional TE spot, or just not knowing, probably still puts a LB on him in coverage.
As a WR he's getting a CB, and he'll have a size advantage over a CB, but he won't have the speed advantage or lack of coverage advantage that he'd have over a LB and most safeties.
He's a TE that needs to be used creatively, to create a massive mismatch, that should benefit all the offensive players on the field.
He has to catch the ball though.
As a WR he's getting a CB, and he'll have a size advantage over a CB, but he won't have the speed advantage or lack of coverage advantage that he'd have over a LB and most safeties.
How does a guy who runs 4.42 not have a speed advantage. That's as fast or faster than most CBs and most WRs for that matter. We've had some exceptionally fast CBs recently but 4.42 is plenty fast enough to create an advantage. And as a WR that's faster than S. Shepard or Jarvis Landry or Michael Thomas or Antonio Brown for instance.
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As a WR he's getting a CB, and he'll have a size advantage over a CB, but he won't have the speed advantage or lack of coverage advantage that he'd have over a LB and most safeties.
How does a guy who runs 4.42 not have a speed advantage. That's as fast or faster than most CBs and most WRs for that matter. We've had some exceptionally fast CBs recently but 4.42 is plenty fast enough to create an advantage. And as a WR that's faster than S. Shepard or Jarvis Landry or Michael Thomas or Antonio Brown for instance.
Fair enough, but it's less of an advantage than it is against most LB's or S's.
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In comment 14072356 pjcas18 said:
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Fair enough, but it's less of an advantage than it is against most LB's or S's.
Agreed but what are you giving away to get that. Almost everyone on this thread seems to want to ignore that fact the Engram is 6'3" 240. That's 2" shorter and 20 lbs lighter than the "average" guy who plays TE in the NFL. Go look at the rosters. Heck, look at ours. Both our other TEs are 6'5" 255. This is the NFL and when it come to blocking, size matters.
And running a 4.42, he's going to out-run and out-jump most NFL CBs; and out-wrestle all of them for the ball;(there might be a few safeties that challenge but probably none that beat him).
So, there you have it, an excellent full-time receiver prospect playing TE (while a Bromcos reject is playing the role of decoy).
I'm thinking they will split him out once-in-a-while (because they were doing that in training camp), their purest intent, however, is to make make him a TE - which is what object to; we'll see ...
There's myopia at play, but it's occurring in this thread with people who cannot bend around the idea that they may not actually understand what they're seeing with how Engram is used on the field. The Giants aren't trying to use him as a "legitimate blocking TE" or in a traditional TE role.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1038917386706083840
That Engram blocked (he did make a very good block, possibly surprising him).
In the play-of-the game, #44, Myles Jack caught Engram, cutting him off and bouncing him off the field. Jack is an amazing player, maybe the best player on the field, that night.
I give Engram his due at the L.O.S., but in a "mano-a-mano" tussle, I just don't see him winning those. Why bother, I'm just asking.
As far as the second guessing about his use, isn't that part of the fun around here ?
Now it is just absurdity:
"Possibly surprising him"? Fuck us all.
He should just be more like Flowers and not try as hard...