Trying to make ( 4.42 forty) Evan Engram a tight end ? - when they are officially HURTING for somebody to start opposite OBJ.
Not for lack of trying, he gets pummeled by 300+ pound linemen, I keep asking myself, why Giants, why ?
Stop wasting him attending linemen meetings, value him for what he is - a good big, fast, agile Wide Receiver; teach him how to be a great one then put him in front of one of these, till he sees this machine in his dreams ....
http://www.tennisballmachines.co.uk/americanfootballmachine/fgfootballpassingmachine2002.jpg
He's a match up nightmare against DBs as well. 6'3" 240 lb guys don't generally run 4.42. Guys his size are match up nightmares against DBs when the run 4.52. (See guys like Ju-Ju Smith-Shuster or Mike Evans)
Would you rather have him as a huge mismatch as a TE or just another guy at WR?
Actually I know your answer which makes it even that more evident how little you understand the game.
He's being asked to run WR-type routes 20, 30, 40 yards down the field. If that's the case he needs to be practicing as WR, in the WR film room and not splitting his time during the week learning protection installations.
There's a reason he's not progressing catching the ball -- and I would look at where he's spending his week.
Would you rather have him as a huge mismatch as a TE or just another guy at WR?
Actually I know your answer which makes it even that more evident how little you understand the game.
On a team as desperate as the giants for offensive blocking it does make him a liability at times.
He would make a decent WR, but he'll be a game-changer at TE. They will split him out occasionally, but that's not where you want him to spend the bulk of the time.
There have been quite a few TE's that had Wr-like speed and they've thrived at TE.
So I like Engram's chances in the blocking area...
This is nonsense. His size/speed makes him a unique talent at WR as well. Find me another 240 lb receiver of any description who runs 4.42. As I said above Mike Williams is about that size and ran 4.54 at his pro day. Now, speed/size aren't everything but to say playing him at WR negates "the reason he's so valuable" isn't true either.
You just took an advantage away in the seam to move to a position we already have covered decently.
Most people really thought this was a terrible idea the other couple of hundred times Manny posted it. Now, after the opener, it is growing legs?
This fucking place...
You just took an advantage away in the seam to move to a position we already have covered decently.
Most people really thought this was a terrible idea the other couple of hundred times Manny posted it. Now, after the opener, it is growing legs?
This fucking place...
Ellison is a perfectly good TE and, if I'm not mistaken, the starting TE in this offense. Engram is a 2nd TE, h-back, WR hybrid. Even now I doubt he's ever the only TE on the field outside of 4 WR sets.
Ellison was there for 29 snaps or 41%.
And we really don't use an H-Back in the traditional sense.
For the moment he is more hype than substance, but there is plenty of season to go and it is just his second year. I just hope he does not become a coach killer who tantalizes with possible talent but shits bed with key drops and failed blocks.
He's still learning, but you'd swear the guy can't do anything but run patterns.
Meanwhile, Ellison's blocking has been suspect for somebody where it is his strength.
Acting like Engram is a terrible blocker is just way off the mark
Ellison was there for 29 snaps or 41%.
And we really don't use an H-Back in the traditional sense.
And that's the problem. If he's out the alone being asked to block traditional TE assignments, the offense will suffer. He can't block DLs and most of the LBs out the are bigger than him as well. This was the same myopia that McAdoo fell into. "Engram is a TE" Well you can line him up there but you can't expect legitimate TE blocking performance.
Jesus.
engram - ( New Window )
Interesting to see a comment on Ellison's blocking -- I keyed on him a lot of the game because I think he's a overpaid, and thought he did a representative job on a number of plays.
Probably the same people who say Ogletree can't cover anyone.
We have a Stellar wide receiver (OBJ) who demands and gets double and triple team coverage on every play.
Opposite him we have a DECOY - Latimer; while we have a pure athlete wrestling 300 pound uglies, something is very wrong with that picture.
I might sign-up for a "Jordan Reed" type role for Engram if we had a Redskins type O-line, but we don't. Our O-line needs TE blocking help, every play, it seems.
It just seems a "crying shame" to see a guy who is faster, quicker than most NFL CBs "stuck" in the TE role.
Chipping DLs isn't what TEs are asked to do. TEs are expected to take on DLs one on at least pretty regularly.
Campbell was a one man wrecking crew there isn't a single
weak spot on that defense . Add in Myles Jack who could easily been a top 5 pick is healthy and playing like one.
Ellison is an adequate blocker, but the flip side is that you have people literally saying that Engram CAN'T block.
They both have roles. Engram is there to create mismatches. Ellison is strictly for underneath routes and for blocking on run plays and that shows in his snap counts.
While Engram may not get 90% of the snaps in every game, it is clear that Shurmur understands he creates mismatches and will utilize him as such.
Sigh.
And that's where spending time during the week on prep with the TE/OL and the WR/TE groups keeps him from solely focusing on honing his craft as pass catcher.
Because whatever you think of him, he's not going to make a mark as a blocking tight end, it's as a pass catcher.
Because whatever you think of him, he's not going to make a mark as a blocking tight end, it's as a pass catcher.
My point maybe better expressed. If he even becomes average as a blocker it would be a pleasant surprise. He is already a plus receiver and has potential to be real force.
He would make a decent WR, but he'll be a game-changer at TE. They will split him out occasionally, but that's not where you want him to spend the bulk of the time.
There have been quite a few TE's that had Wr-like speed and they've thrived at TE.
My concern with Engram isn't his blocking but his drops. His role isn't to be Zeke Mowatt or even Mark Bavaro. He needs to be at least a minimally competent blocker. But he's got to be a reliable receiver, even before he's a game-breaker. If he's got a lot of drops, that negates his role. You can't be a receiving tight end and have questionable hands.
I think he (at 235 lbs) could be a feared destroyer of smaller CBs and safeties (in the deep zones) blocking for & trying to chase down Barkley.
I read, somewhere that Latimer's role involves some of this; I submit to you that Engram could be a lot batter at this - another Plaxico (in that respect). Recall how good he was at "mowing down" little guys, down-field ?
What Engram needs is for the passing or running game to do well while he's in, then the opponents either bring in more speed to defend the pass and he can block for the run or they bring in more bulk to slow the run and he can get open. In base sets, he's useless if our OL can't protect or get movement in the running game. He's a move ahead of where we need to be honestly. IF IF IF we had a competent OL he would be a nightmare but he's a piece that would be great IF IF IF we could block and we can't.
I'm curious, which TE can block Defensive linemen?
You said it best.
In some ways, he reminds me of Amani Toomer - a guy with talent that just needs to dedicate himself to hard work
Engram has elite talent. I just hope we don't waste what he has by trying to "pound a square peg into a round hole".
You said it best.
In some ways, he reminds me of Amani Toomer - a guy with talent that just needs to dedicate himself to hard work
Engram has elite talent. I just hope we don't waste what he has by trying to "pound a square peg into a round hole".
Good to hear from you.
I went back for my 50th high school reunion a couple of years ago. as you know, football is king in Texas - it was great to celebrate their State 6A division championship.
About Engram, you're right, he's gonna be fine, where ever they play him. But I tell you, that kid can fly !
If the TE was a world class receiver, maybe that would tip the scales. But he drops the ball. We don't need another receiver who drops the ball. We need a TE who can keep Eli clean.