Not 2016 - but this year.
So much was made of the actual money shelled out to fix the defense in 2016, but the expenditure this year isn't far off and the big investment has been in the offense.
The perception is probably different because Beckham is an extension and not an acquisition, but money is money and cap space is cap space.
A decent argument can be made all of the acquisitions in 2016 where a net plus, and extending Beckham already under contract is net neutral.
Now the ROI on Vernon can be debated, but why so much noise about Reese spending Mara/Tisch money and not Gettleman?
I know this doesn't cover everyone but as far as big payouts:
2018
Beckham Jr. - 65M guaranteed
Solder - 34.8 guaranteed
Omameh - 10.05 guaranteed
109.85
2016
Jenkins - 28M guaranteed
Harrison - 24M guaranteed
Vernon - 52M guaranteed
Pierre Paul - 10.5M guaranteed
114.5
In all preseason and last game
It's not fair to consider Beckham in the expenditure simply because he was already on the team, and re-signing him was basically a no-brainer.
JPP vs. Omameh - JPP probably shouldn't have been extended due to his injury history, but he had a history of inconsistent but above average play. For the same money, we paid Omameh, who was cut loose from Jax the second someone better was available, and who has looked poor at the position in a Giants uniform thus far. The best we have working for us there is that it's early yet.
So that takes us to the albatrosses - Solder vs. Vernon. Vernon had an excellent 2016 despite playing the majority of the year with a broken wrist. You can argue that Vernon isn't value in the sense that he was paid difference maker money, but he's certainly not a liability. Solder's only played in one game, but he didn't play an average game or mediocre, he looked very much like a liability out there.
I'd throw Stewart on that list too - it's only $3M, but it's $3M thrown into the wind in a year where we were expecting to pick Barkley and pay him a good chunk of change, and in a market where he basically had no takers.
2016 was a year where we had a lot of cap space and needed to revamp a D. We spent a fair bit of money to overhaul the OL, and unlike the D rebuild, I'm not expecting the results to be positive.
Then read the playoff game recap. I believe he uses the word "invisible" to describe Vernon's performance.
Calling Vernon's 2016 excellent is a pretty low standard. And his 2017, like everyone else's, was an embarrassment.
Then read the playoff game recap. I believe he uses the word "invisible" to describe Vernon's performance.
Calling Vernon's 2016 excellent is a pretty low standard. And his 2017, like everyone else's, was an embarrassment.
He was a 2nd team All Pro selection in '16, despite playing most of the year with a broken wrist. 2017 was a disappointment, but he was very disruptive the year before.
My biggest memory of Vernon's 2016 was Al Michaels, "When the Giants gave him that contract, a lot of people said,'Him?'" He sounded like Michael Bluth asking George Michael about Ann.
The praise for Gettlemen is premature since we haven't won shit yet. Maybe he's done a good job and maybe he hasn't. I don't think "we didn't blow the #2 pick in the entire fucking draft" is reason for praise. Right now all he did was spend Mara's and Tisch's money like Reese did. Frankly, I couldn't be happier. Those two clowns deserve to write all the checks their dopey decisions have led them to write.
Vernon, in contrast, in his whole six seasons, had only one pass defense.
Two overpaid DEs. Which do you keep. Check back again at the end of the season. Probably no big difference either way.
I understand the open market dictates cost and it's highly competitive. But, they so rarely wind up paying the dividends we're investing towards.
I've no problem with OB's deal, he's a franchise talent and you need to pay them and keep them to build around.
Omameh is a marginal signing, a team desperate for OL literally had few options. At least it's "cheap".
The praise for Gettlemen is premature since we haven't won shit yet. Maybe he's done a good job and maybe he hasn't. I don't think "we didn't blow the #2 pick in the entire fucking draft" is reason for praise. Right now all he did was spend Mara's and Tisch's money like Reese did. Frankly, I couldn't be happier. Those two clowns deserve to write all the checks their dopey decisions have led them to write.
That sure sounds like a sound view from a Giants fan...
Flowers was obviously a mistake. A big one given where he was taken. Every team makes those gaffes at one time or another. That doesn’t hurt any less, but it really is what it is.
Vernon? The man was not too much older(25) than Eli was (23) when he was drafted. He was absolutely worth THE MARKET at the time. He’s still ONLY 27 and in his prime.
The money is outrageous. Agreed. GET OVER IT. It (contracts) will get worse before it gets better
Doesn’t mean I think they’re great deals, but I think time will show that the substantial investment made in the 2018 OL will yield significantly better OL play than 2017, even if it isn’t a dollar-for-dollar.
So then, what should we have done this off season? Forget Reese stuff, he’s gone. If Pugh could have stayed on the field, I, as a fan, would have supported paying him and put him at OLT, where I feel he would have held his own, or at least do as well as gritty Diehl did. Other than that, what should they have done, draft an OLT at 2?
You people love to pick and choose with this crap.
Who is your LT if you don't sign Solder?
We should not have signed OBJ?
WTF is the point of this stupid thread?
They’re paying him $5m per and he can be cut next year with. $3m savings.
To me that's the line, if you prefer to always try to win now and keep propping up Eli, then you're probably ok with spending like a drunken sailor.
I'd prefer to get building towards the future.
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They know when it's time to let players walk in NE. I get it, they had to over pay for starting OLT, but that's a huge chunk of cap resources not likely to match the returns and even after dishing it out, the Oline remains a huge mess. It's not like we fixed the oline problems.
So then, what should we have done this off season? Forget Reese stuff, he’s gone. If Pugh could have stayed on the field, I, as a fan, would have supported paying him and put him at OLT, where I feel he would have held his own, or at least do as well as gritty Diehl did. Other than that, what should they have done, draft an OLT at 2?
To me that's the line, if you prefer to always try to win now and keep propping up Eli, then you're probably ok with spending like a drunken sailor.
I'd prefer to get building towards the future.
The Martin signing was important because of the transition to the new defense, the lack of 3/4 OLB on the team and the fact that he can play in multiple fronts. FYI he had a sack in the first game. He knows Bettcher's system.
I understand the open market dictates cost and it's highly competitive. But, they so rarely wind up paying the dividends we're investing towards.
I've no problem with OB's deal, he's a franchise talent and you need to pay them and keep them to build around.
Omameh is a marginal signing, a team desperate for OL literally had few options. At least it's "cheap".
People said the same thing about Harrison and Jenkins, but those have worked out so now they keep their mouth shut about them.
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In comment 14072218 UberAlias said:
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They know when it's time to let players walk in NE. I get it, they had to over pay for starting OLT, but that's a huge chunk of cap resources not likely to match the returns and even after dishing it out, the Oline remains a huge mess. It's not like we fixed the oline problems.
So then, what should we have done this off season? Forget Reese stuff, he’s gone. If Pugh could have stayed on the field, I, as a fan, would have supported paying him and put him at OLT, where I feel he would have held his own, or at least do as well as gritty Diehl did. Other than that, what should they have done, draft an OLT at 2?
I agree with you on Pugh. We needed a tackle, not necessarily a Left tackle and would prefer lesser options that didn't time up such massive cap resources. I don't get the idea moving Flowers to the right solved anything. Could have kept him where he was and opted for a lesser ORT option that didn't eat up massive resources yet still leave us in a bad state up front. I'd feel differently if Soldier was younger, but signing older players to huge deals can be a major risk.
Except as you know, OL have been known to play into or close to their mid 30s at a good to high level. Some even beyond. That’s not an outlier. In today’s financial football market, it is far from uncommon for a first contract OL to leave after 4-5 years anyway. Solder will be 34-35 after his contract expires. 15-20 years ago, it was quite common for OL to stay with their team for an entire contract. So AGE IS NO LONGER AN IMPORTANT FACTOR in today’s NFL, imv
NBC, Michaels and Collinsworth spent pretty much the entire time lambasting the team for the signings, and it was right after that game, they started to pay dividends.
Vernon and JPP that year combined for the most snaps by a DE tandem and they generated the most pressures. A stat that several here crapped on because it didn't fit the narrative that Vernon sucked, yet they apparently bought into the narrative driven home on a nationally televised game early in the year.
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Tough pill to swallow paying A+ money for B+ talent, to borrow from Terps. I think it's entirely accurate.
I understand the open market dictates cost and it's highly competitive. But, they so rarely wind up paying the dividends we're investing towards.
I've no problem with OB's deal, he's a franchise talent and you need to pay them and keep them to build around.
Omameh is a marginal signing, a team desperate for OL literally had few options. At least it's "cheap".
People said the same thing about Harrison and Jenkins, but those have worked out so now they keep their mouth shut about them.
Your attitude is lame.
I've posted many times I was wrong about Jenkins, and Scacks wasn't a bad contract up front.
Uber, I haven't heard anyone say it, but it seems to me the decisions have clearly pointed at winning one more with Eli leading the way. The Saquon pick cemented it for me.
At the same time, right now the talent isn't there to win it all, and we'll need to see how DG attacks this next offseason and beyond.
He got $5 m per. That’s a very average salary for a starter.
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Just curious on your sense. How much did Eli factor in decisions this offseason? Any truth to the idea there was a strong desire to win one more with our guy? Or did was that not a factor? I know many folks here have opinions, one way or another. What is yours?
Uber, I haven't heard anyone say it, but it seems to me the decisions have clearly pointed at winning one more with Eli leading the way. The Saquon pick cemented it for me.
At the same time, right now the talent isn't there to win it all, and we'll need to see how DG attacks this next offseason and beyond.
At the very least, they decided Eli was their best QB option for 2018 and probably 2019.
Flowers was obviously a mistake. A big one given where he was taken. Every team makes those gaffes at one time or another. That doesn’t hurt any less, but it really is what it is.
Vernon? The man was not too much older(25) than Eli was (23) when he was drafted. He was absolutely worth THE MARKET at the time. He’s still ONLY 27 and in his prime.
The money is outrageous. Agreed. GET OVER IT. It (contracts) will get worse before it gets better
Independent of position, chances are you reset the market if you are signing the best UFA at a position any given off-season. The question becomes 1) is he the type of guy worth it (not the best, but worth it) 2) can you absorb the cost and do what else you need to do.
There isn't anything outrageous about the money in any contract per se when there is a cap. It's about allocation.
If you look at the Giants, they aren't heavily invested in the o-line as a percentage of resources, even with Solder.
I personally didn't see either guy as worthy of setting the market. I don't subscribe to the idea you have to make a move for the top guy, that's shopping hungry.
I do believe in making the move for the right guy. And if he's not there you wait until he comes up.
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In comment 14072003 Gman11 said:
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Omameh is going to be a big mistake like giving a big contract to JPP was.
Its only a big hit this year. He can basically be released next year and there wont be any dead money.
If Omameh is released before next season he's a 7.6M dead money hit - nearly 75% of his deal. That seems pretty big to me.
It's essentially a two year deal.
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Just curious on your sense. How much did Eli factor in decisions this offseason? Any truth to the idea there was a strong desire to win one more with our guy? Or did was that not a factor? I know many folks here have opinions, one way or another. What is yours?
Uber, I haven't heard anyone say it, but it seems to me the decisions have clearly pointed at winning one more with Eli leading the way. The Saquon pick cemented it for me.
At the same time, right now the talent isn't there to win it all, and we'll need to see how DG attacks this next offseason and beyond.
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In comment 14072190 JonC said:
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Tough pill to swallow paying A+ money for B+ talent, to borrow from Terps. I think it's entirely accurate.
I understand the open market dictates cost and it's highly competitive. But, they so rarely wind up paying the dividends we're investing towards.
I've no problem with OB's deal, he's a franchise talent and you need to pay them and keep them to build around.
Omameh is a marginal signing, a team desperate for OL literally had few options. At least it's "cheap".
People said the same thing about Harrison and Jenkins, but those have worked out so now they keep their mouth shut about them.
Your attitude is lame.
I've posted many times I was wrong about Jenkins, and Scacks wasn't a bad contract up front.
That wasn't actually directed towards you. I just responded to your comment because it was related.
But Jints Central hasn’t demonstrated their talent evaluation chops since the 2008 SB. Sure, we won the SB in ‘12 but that looks more and more like a complete and total outlier.
And until we if DG can be counted on the jury is still out him. Frankly, I don’t know how anybody can be too sold on him considering the how fake the search was with Mara consulting with Accorsi. Basically showing the fix was in for DG...
But Jints Central hasn’t demonstrated their talent evaluation chops since the 2008 SB. Sure, we won the SB in ‘12 but that looks more and more like a complete and total outlier.
And until we if DG can be counted on the jury is still out him. Frankly, I don’t know how anybody can be too sold on him considering the how fake the search was with Mara consulting with Accorsi. Basically showing the fix was in for DG...
The Giants were rumored to like John Dorsey very much but the Browns moved quickly to secure his services. They didn't want him to go for his interview with the Giants. Had Dorsey interviewed I think he would have been the GM and our draft would have been much different.
What a team has to figure is not "are we paying him more than he is worth?" Rather, the calculus a team has to make is "does this spending make us better than if we spent the money another way?"
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In comment 14072003 Gman11 said:
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Omameh is going to be a big mistake like giving a big contract to JPP was.
Its only a big hit this year. He can basically be released next year and there wont be any dead money.
If Omameh is released before next season he's a 7.6M dead money hit - nearly 75% of his deal. That seems pretty big to me.
Omameh's deal isn't bad and I'm not sure where you're seeing $7.6M in dead money. They could release him now and he'd only cost $5.5M in dead money. Releasing him next offseason would save ~$3M in cap space ($6.25M cap hit with him vs $3.1M dead money).
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
You're not. Other people may have. Omameh's signing bonus of $4.5m and his 2018 and 2019 base salary are guaranteed. The Giants are responsible for all of that if he's cut. Omameh is here until the end of 2019. After that, the contract is an easy out.
But rather than scoping out a plan for using the huge cap space to determine the future course of the team, the front office simply reacted to 2015's deficiencies. At no point did they seem to say, "We're committed to our QB, but he's 35 years old and immobile - how do we best equip this team to succeed with him running it?" There were excellent offensive linemen in that FA class - two or possibly three could have been signed for the amount that was spent on Vernon alone. And then there was the mystifying decision to apply the franchise tag to JPP.
$200 million is a lot of cap space. Spent well it can be the bedrock of a good team. Spent poorly and it's an anchor. Here we are two years later with no offensive line and no pass rush.
Reactive rather than proactive. No plan.
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a left tackle. There's no other way.
Yup. Andrew Whitworth at 37 got some nice coin. (less than Solder though)
Whitworth is also an all-pro level elite Left Tackle. He's the huge miss on the Giants. And his contract was very reasonable.
Of course, we now have the benefit of hindsight.
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Maybe I'm reading this wrong? Link - ( New Window )
You're not. Other people may have. Omameh's signing bonus of $4.5m and his 2018 and 2019 base salary are guaranteed. The Giants are responsible for all of that if he's cut. Omameh is here until the end of 2019. After that, the contract is an easy out.
Either Spotrac or OTC is wrong. OTC has only $100k of his 2019 base guaranteed.
This is Vernon's seventh year in the league and third with the Giants. NFL players don't blossom in their seventh season. What you've seen is what you're gonna get: 6.5 to 8.5 sacks a season.