Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Sunday Night's Game is a Must Win

arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 9:31 am
I know - it's the 2nd game. It's Shurmur's 2nd game. Bettcher's 2nd game. Barkley's 2nd game. How can it be a "must win" ?

It is if we want to compete at all this year or be in the mix.

As it is, only ~12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs, so the odds would obviously already be pretty heavily against us should we lose.

Dallas is not a good team this year. Dak Prescott isn't good. Their OL is a bit banged up and played poorly against CAR. There are very few weapons outside of Elliott. Their defense will probably be okay this year - not great.

There's really no excuse here. We need to score more than 15 points. We need to connect when plays are there to be made. We need to limit the mistakes.

If we can't win this game, this team isn't going anywhere anyway. But I 100% believe if we lose this game, the season will just spiral out of control and we'll be out of the mix by Halloween.

If the Giants want this season to mean something, they need to go into Dallas and make that evident. No excuses. No bullshit. Have to win.
Normally..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 9:33 am : link
I'd say we shouldn't freak out, but I firmly believe coming off of a 3-13 season with the early schedule being tough, and the fact that Dallas is ripe for the taking with Frederick out and the WR's not very good, that a loss here would be devastating.
Rinse and repeat  
GiantsRage2007 : 9/12/2018 9:34 am : link
We've started 0-2 in 4 of the past 5 years...

This is basically the same thing we say every year lol
For one of the few times on here, I disagree with your take,  
Big Blue '56 : 9/12/2018 9:35 am : link
though most will agree. The citing of the ďteams that start off 0-2Ē stat is meaningless imo, given itís a new year, new staff and revamped squad.Yes it will be the prevalent feeling, yet it is one game at a time, the difficulty of schedule ONLY matters at the time you play them and though I would be upset with a loss to Dallas, my mindset is always the Parcellsí mindset of a marathon not a sprint
One game at a time.  
Britt in VA : 9/12/2018 9:36 am : link
.
1000% correct..  
Sean : 9/12/2018 9:36 am : link
the team is built to win this year & starting 0-2 facing Houston , NO & Carolina would be an absolute disaster. I canít stress enough how much of a disaster that would be.
Yes, it's a must win.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/12/2018 9:38 am : link
I really can't take another year where the season is DOA by the time the baseball playoffs start. Nor can my liver.
RE: For one of the few times on here, I disagree with your take,  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 9:39 am : link
In comment 14072342 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
though most will agree. The citing of the ďteams that start off 0-2Ē stat is meaningless imo, given itís a new year, new staff and revamped squad.Yes it will be the prevalent feeling, yet it is one game at a time, the difficulty of schedule ONLY matters at the time you play them and though I would be upset with a loss to Dallas, my mindset is always the Parcellsí mindset of a marathon not a sprint


This would be my stance in most seasons - but it isn't this year.

I really think a loss in Dallas would get this ship sinking very quickly. We need to win this game. I think it's hugely, hugely important - as important a Week 2 game as this team will play.

They cannot afford to start 0-2 in a season where they're going to need things to come together on the fly.

I really think an 0-2 start will sink this football team based on what we've seen in recent years.
Dallas may not have a lot of weapons...  
M.S. : 9/12/2018 9:41 am : link

...but they faced a pretty rough and tough team on the road in Carolina.

I wouldn't go on what they did in Game One.

That said, there is no such thing as a "must win" in Game Two, but it sure as hell feels like this might be an exception to the rule.

The Giants need to experience what WINNING feels like. That needs to start Sunday night in Dallas.
I do not agree  
RinR : 9/12/2018 9:41 am : link
it is a must win and I certainly don't agree that the season will spiral out of control with a loss.
I wonít say  
Fred-in-Florida : 9/12/2018 9:41 am : link
Itís a MUST win, but I agree another loss puts us in a hole! Dallas is in trouble too! Itís big for them, home opener looking at a second loss. Not going to be easy but it never is!
I agree  
Kyle in NY : 9/12/2018 9:45 am : link
and I think we'll win comfortably. This Dallas team is heading for a crisis. They actually remind me of last season's Giants, both heading into their week 2 primetime game.

Remember our week 1 ugly loss in Dallas, similar to theirs at Carolina, with a lot of warning signs showing. Things that needed to be fixed over the offseason still causing issues. Heading into a week 2 matchup, for us against Detroit, feeling like things were already teetering on the brink with that coach and OL. I think Dallas is in a similar spot.

Hot seat rumors swirling around Garrett, injuries to the OL, absolutely no weapons on the outside on offense, and a QB that's showing significant weaknesses. I think we get this win and Dallas begins to fall apart.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 9:46 am : link
There are only a couple of teams that I think could rebound from an 0-2 start... I think New Orleans and Atlanta probably could. The Chargers would likely be able to get back into the mix.

But this is one of those turning point games that I think we need to win and I don't think it's too early whatsoever. Things are going to get bad if we lose.
Dallas...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 9:47 am : link
made Carolina look a lot better than they really are.

When the dust settles this year, I think the Panthers will struggle to be .500, especially with Olsen out.

Funchess has developed nicely, but they don't have a #2 WR, their OL is shaky, and their D is really weak in the secondary.

Once Carolina lost Olsen, they only had one pass travel over 20 yards in the air and they exclusively ran the ball or did short dumpoffs to McCaffery. That worked against the anemic Dallas offense - it won't work most of the time.
0-2 could  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/12/2018 9:47 am : link
quickly spiral into 0-5 with @ Houston, home vs. Saints, & @ Carolina.

I can't do that again. I really can't.
RE: I agree  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 9:47 am : link
In comment 14072365 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
and I think we'll win comfortably. This Dallas team is heading for a crisis. They actually remind me of last season's Giants, both heading into their week 2 primetime game.

Remember our week 1 ugly loss in Dallas, similar to theirs at Carolina, with a lot of warning signs showing. Things that needed to be fixed over the offseason still causing issues. Heading into a week 2 matchup, for us against Detroit, feeling like things were already teetering on the brink with that coach and OL. I think Dallas is in a similar spot.

Hot seat rumors swirling around Garrett, injuries to the OL, absolutely no weapons on the outside on offense, and a QB that's showing significant weaknesses. I think we get this win and Dallas begins to fall apart.


I feel the same way about Dallas - and that's why I think it'll be devastating if we can't put THEM in the 0-2 hole. Because I know they can't and won't get out of it. There are a lot of cracks in that foundation now and it's starting to fall apart. We need to take advantage.

The Giants should win this game. They are better than the Cowboys right now.
0-2 is a disaster if it comes to fruition.  
The_Boss : 9/12/2018 9:49 am : link
Still having to play Houston, New Orleans, Carolina, Philadelphia, and Atlanta in successive weeks leading up to the bye will render the NYG irrelevant weeks before Halloween. Thereís not a game in that bunch that is as ripe for the taking as this game in Dallas.
RE: Dallas...  
M.S. : 9/12/2018 9:51 am : link
In comment 14072370 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
made Carolina look a lot better than they really are.

When the dust settles this year, I think the Panthers will struggle to be .500, especially with Olsen out.

Funchess has developed nicely, but they don't have a #2 WR, their OL is shaky, and their D is really weak in the secondary.

Once Carolina lost Olsen, they only had one pass travel over 20 yards in the air and they exclusively ran the ball or did short dumpoffs to McCaffery. That worked against the anemic Dallas offense - it won't work most of the time.

The Olsen loss is huge. That guy is almost all-world... he is fantastic!
I  
sin : 9/12/2018 9:52 am : link
agree it's a must win, but it's definitely winnable. Dallas will have all the pressure on them as well.
While technically not a must win...this game is very important  
Jints in Carolina : 9/12/2018 9:53 am : link
I don't expect the playoffs to happen this year anyway, but I'd like to be in the hunt.
I agree completely.  
Brown Recluse : 9/12/2018 9:54 am : link
This game is really going to say a lot about what kind of team we have this season. If they don't win this one, its going to be really sledding the rest of the way.
If you get players wanting to quit  
crick n NC : 9/12/2018 9:55 am : link
At 0-2 (0-1 in conference play) that's good to know so we can ship them out
RE: 0-2 could  
The_Boss : 9/12/2018 9:55 am : link
In comment 14072371 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
quickly spiral into 0-5 with @ Houston, home vs. Saints, & @ Carolina.

I can't do that again. I really can't.


Eagles on a Thursday night where the travel up the turnpike wonít faze them (and Wentz might be back) followed by a (likely) thrashing the next Monday night in Atlanta follows those games. It gets scary if we lose Sunday. Imagine if theyíre 1-7 or 2-6 at the bye?
*tough sledding  
Brown Recluse : 9/12/2018 9:55 am : link
.
We're likely facing an offense  
Kyle in NY : 9/12/2018 9:56 am : link
that's going to look similar to what the Jags did this week. Frederick is such a huge loss for them at center. Cannot overstate how much that affects what they want to do running the ball. Snacks should have a nice matchup. Load the box and force their receivers to win one on one. I feel good about the defense in this one especially if we can get OV back.

Biggest key for me is what we do with Demarcus Lawrence. He wrecked us in week 1 last season. Flowers cannot be left on an island with him. If that means going two TE and have Ellison helping out, so be it. We're likely stuck with Flowers this season but he can no longer be allowed to single handedly destroy multiple drives a game for this offense. Give him help.
This absolutely a must win game  
dep026 : 9/12/2018 9:56 am : link
if you cant beat the bottom barrell teams who are struggling..... then you are a bottom barrel team as well. At some point, we have to win a fucking game.
RE: 0-2 is a disaster if it comes to fruition.  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2018 9:59 am : link
In comment 14072376 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Still having to play Houston, New Orleans, Carolina, Philadelphia, and Atlanta in successive weeks leading up to the bye will render the NYG irrelevant weeks before Halloween. Thereís not a game in that bunch that is as ripe for the taking as this game in Dallas.


atlantas defense is going to be a lot different missing their best safety and best linebacker...

carolina missing olsen...

saints defense looked awful and are a different team on the road...

houston deshaun watson has not yet regained laat years performance so far albeit preseason and week 1 and they juat lost their best cover corner
having saod that  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2018 10:00 am : link
absokutely have to beat dallas..

forst off divisional game, against a team with injuries in key spots..

they are already starting to turn bad, giants can push them over the edge...

RE: We're likely facing an offense  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2018 10:00 am : link
In comment 14072396 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
that's going to look similar to what the Jags did this week. Frederick is such a huge loss for them at center. Cannot overstate how much that affects what they want to do running the ball. Snacks should have a nice matchup. Load the box and force their receivers to win one on one. I feel good about the defense in this one especially if we can get OV back.

Biggest key for me is what we do with Demarcus Lawrence. He wrecked us in week 1 last season. Flowers cannot be left on an island with him. If that means going two TE and have Ellison helping out, so be it. We're likely stuck with Flowers this season but he can no longer be allowed to single handedly destroy multiple drives a game for this offense. Give him help.


last ywar giants had no beckham and with barkley thwir dline can not just pin thwir ears back because if they do barkley is going to kill them on cutbacks
It Always Is  
Rong5611 : 9/12/2018 10:03 am : link
Is it a must win? They all are.

Agree, if it this is supposed to be a playoff team, you have to get this one.

Problem is, we are coming off a 3-13 season. So, calling this team a playoff team this year is premature...it likely isn't. The hope is that they can contend.

Have to take it one week at a time, build on what was a positive off-season and a solid effort versus the Jags.

A win would help.
arc......I agree 100%. Especially where this is such a winnable game.  
Blue21 : 9/12/2018 10:05 am : link
No reason Giants should lose. I've been saying since the Jag's game that the Giants should have won that game. Drops,overthrow in endzone, a missed PI (in my opinion)and interception killed them yet it is was still close. This division game is a must win.
RE: This absolutely a must win game  
Jints in Carolina : 9/12/2018 10:05 am : link
In comment 14072398 dep026 said:
Quote:
if you cant beat the bottom barrell teams who are struggling..... then you are a bottom barrel team as well. At some point, we have to win a fucking game.


They are a bottom barrel team until they prove otherwise.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 10:07 am : link
Lawrence/Flowers is the matchup that can wreck this game for us if we don't get him help.

I'd run some leak out screens to Barkley on his side. They can suck Lawrence in towards the pocket and squirt Barkley out on the perimeter for a few dumpoffs. Have Engram or the slot WR run a slant or post that pulls the LB/nickel CB out of that space.

The game against the Jaguars was frustrating, but it didn't feel particularly hopeless the way the Dallas game did in last year's opener.

Last year's opener was the type of game you could watch and just know right away that this was going to be a really, really bad team.

I didn't see that against JAX - I saw a team that did some good things. We just need to finish drives and connect when plays are there. This can be a decent football team, but it won't matter if we lose again on Sunday.
RE: RE: This absolutely a must win game  
Rong5611 : 9/12/2018 10:12 am : link
Bingo.

In comment 14072421 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
In comment 14072398 dep026 said:


Quote:


if you cant beat the bottom barrell teams who are struggling..... then you are a bottom barrel team as well. At some point, we have to win a fucking game.



They are a bottom barrel team until they prove otherwise.
I see where you're going...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/12/2018 10:13 am : link
and to some extent agree with the idea.

Having said that - here's where we differ.

All losses are not equal. There's losses where you are outplayed, outschemed, out-hustled, out-physicaled, injured, and all of the above. Then there's the loss where by all rights you should have won - where the refs get in the way or something like that.

If it's the latter - if the team has played hard and loses but feels they were clearly the superior team and just got robbed - they will not be quitting on their coach or their teammates. They will be angry and determined not to let it happen again.

Anyway - that's my take.
if they can't beat the Cowboys, then it'll be a loooooong season  
Greg from LI : 9/12/2018 10:15 am : link
Because they have a whole bunch of games against teams much better than the Cowboys.
RE: I see where you're going...  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 10:20 am : link
In comment 14072435 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
and to some extent agree with the idea.

Having said that - here's where we differ.

All losses are not equal. There's losses where you are outplayed, outschemed, out-hustled, out-physicaled, injured, and all of the above. Then there's the loss where by all rights you should have won - where the refs get in the way or something like that.

If it's the latter - if the team has played hard and loses but feels they were clearly the superior team and just got robbed - they will not be quitting on their coach or their teammates. They will be angry and determined not to let it happen again.

Anyway - that's my take.


This is another take I would typically agree with - but I actually think the Giants are now at a point where they can no longer "feel good" about a loss or say "well, we outplayed them, we cost ourselves the game" or "we did a lot of good things, we can build on this.."

The Giants have to win a football game and they have to win this one. To start 0-2 with a division loss while all 3 other teams will have at LEAST one win is something I don't think this team will recover from.

It's a confidence builder that I think is really important. There are always stepping stones like this throughout the year - and to me, this is just one we can't miss.
RE: if they can't beat the Cowboys, then it'll be a loooooong season  
gmenatlarge : 9/12/2018 10:23 am : link
In comment 14072438 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Because they have a whole bunch of games against teams much better than the Cowboys.


Agreed, but the Cowboys are saying the same thing and they are at home! Time to man up!
RE: 0-2 is a disaster if it comes to fruition.  
jogo1 : 9/12/2018 10:25 am : link
In comment 14072376 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Houston, New Orleans, Carolina, Philadelphia, and Atlanta


In week 1, Watson looked like a rookie behind a bad OL, New Orleans got demolished by Ryan Fitzpatrick, Panthers lost Olsen and Daryl Williams, and Atlanta looked lost with Sarkisian. Any of these teams could get back on track, but it's way too early to fret about strength of schedule.
this is my take  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/12/2018 10:25 am : link
it's a very bad sign if we can't beat a very weak Dallas team -- which is what we'll be facing .

I don't know about must win games for the second game of the season though.
I would normally dismiss  
joeinpa : 9/12/2018 10:26 am : link
The idea that game two is a must win. It I get your point arc.

Sometimes a teams deficiencies make it impossible for them to exploit the opponents weaknesses. That was the Giants last season.

To some extent this happened last Sunday. Jags could not score in the second half. Yet Giants hand them 7!and then compound it by not being able to capitalize on the momentum at home, Barkley s score provided.

If this offense goes another loss because they can't put the ball in the end zone, hard to be optimistic that things are any different
the whole "must win"  
ryanmkeane : 9/12/2018 10:30 am : link
thing is overblown as every game pretty much is...but that being said, the way the schedule starts out, if we are at 0-2 I don't see an optimistic path to the playoffs. Our last 8 are favorable, but 0-2 heading to Houston is just not something that will be ideal.

Looking back at the Jacksonville game, it really is a fucking shame that we lost that game. It reminded me of some of the old good Giants' teams in the mid 2000s era where we would have one of those weird home games where you'd leave saying "we really lost that game?" It just didn't feel like Jacksonville was that much better than us, and we missed a whole bunch of plays that should have been touchdowns.

Fuck Dallas. Let's drop 30 on them and get out of there.
No it's not  
AnnapolisMike : 9/12/2018 10:32 am : link
You need to get to 9-10 wins and to make the playoffs, so the must wins start when losses hit 6. I think though that Dallas is ripe for the picking here. Eli has always played decently in Dallas as well. A loss here would really sting.
It's a must  
Joey in VA : 9/12/2018 10:34 am : link
Win because if we start 0-2 again there will be murders.
As 0-2 can quickly become 0-3,4,5 etc  
micky : 9/12/2018 10:35 am : link
Because start to tighten up as we've seen quite a few times

For a "win now" team, as they committed to, its utmost now.

If they weren't a "win now" then id say no..not ...but considering what has taken place here..they put themselves in this spot
I couldn't agree more  
ZogZerg : 9/12/2018 10:35 am : link
Giants have to win this game or things could get ugly earlier.

Eli must have a big game. He will get pressure, but he needs to deal with it and make BIG plays.
And again, since they put themselves in this situation  
micky : 9/12/2018 10:36 am : link
NO EXCUSES..period!!
I don't think this  
Rick5 : 9/12/2018 10:43 am : link
is a must win game just yet, but if they lose, the game against the Texans will be.
People..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 10:46 am : link
really run with this whole "win now" narrative as if that isn't what every team is doing.

In case you haven't followed the NFL recently, there isn't any tanking and rebuilding. Heck, look at the Cardinals. Are they in "win now" mode by playing Bradford, or since they drafted Rosen, they've decided to rebuild?

Teams build on the fly, and have been doing so since shortly after the salary cap was instituted.
RE: No it's not  
Rick5 : 9/12/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 14072469 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
You need to get to 9-10 wins and to make the playoffs, so the must wins start when losses hit 6. I think though that Dallas is ripe for the picking here. Eli has always played decently in Dallas as well. A loss here would really sting.

While perhaps true in the abstract, that's not a meaningful number without context (i.e., no team that starts 0-6 is making the playoffs, even if it may be mathematically possible in some cases).
Definitely a must win...  
NoPeanutz : 9/12/2018 10:50 am : link
for Dallas.
They are under much more pressure than we are, and probably a considerably worse team. Opening up at home in prime time with high national expectations (nobody expects much of the Giants, by contrast).
Everybody already "knows" how bad Eli is. But Dak needs to live up to his reputation as being the next Roger Staubach for all the fantasy owners in America. Get on their bad side, and Twitter will hear about it.
They would also be facing their second L in the conference.

The Giants should take advantage of Dallas's high-pressure situation under the lights on Sunday.
RE: And again, since they put themselves in this situation  
crick n NC : 9/12/2018 10:58 am : link
In comment 14072478 micky said:
Quote:
NO EXCUSES..period!!


You are aware of the fact that players learning new systems on both sides of the ball takes time?
RE: No it's not  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 11:03 am : link
In comment 14072469 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
You need to get to 9-10 wins and to make the playoffs, so the must wins start when losses hit 6. I think though that Dallas is ripe for the picking here. Eli has always played decently in Dallas as well. A loss here would really sting.


It's like 2013, though - once you get into a hole like that, you aren't going to get out of it. This is the logic people were using that season @ 0-3, 0-4... 0-5.....

The Giants aren't good enough to dig out of holes like that.
You can't win a race in the first turn . . .  
GiantNatty : 9/12/2018 11:05 am : link
. . . but you can lose a race in the first turn.

For this team coming off last season, this is absolutely a must-win.
RE: People..  
Sean : 9/12/2018 11:12 am : link
In comment 14072503 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
really run with this whole "win now" narrative as if that isn't what every team is doing.

In case you haven't followed the NFL recently, there isn't any tanking and rebuilding. Heck, look at the Cardinals. Are they in "win now" mode by playing Bradford, or since they drafted Rosen, they've decided to rebuild?

Teams build on the fly, and have been doing so since shortly after the salary cap was instituted.


The Cardinals, Eagles, Jets, etc are made aggressive moves to secure QBís. We chose to go in a different avenue so there is major pressure to win.
There's major pressure..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 11:22 am : link
on every team to win.

Using the logic many are making about not selecting a QB, then Philly was technically rebuilding by selecting Wentz.

Yet, they won a SB and had the roster composition of being able to still field a team with dominant lines.

Going a different direction doesn't change the "win now" ridiculous narrative. It is just a different philosophy on team building.
Agreed Arc,  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/12/2018 11:26 am : link
they have to get off the snide, if they have any real chance of contending this year. And that was the whole point, to contend.

I actually see a similar game to Jax, have to stop a very good running game and they have to run the ball. DAL will attack Flowers and that can wreck the game for the Giants. But Jax is better than Dallas.

Giants should win this game. If not I see it starting to unravel.
Do people really think that this team is built to compete this year?  
chuckydee9 : 9/12/2018 11:26 am : link
and if so what do they mean by compete?

because we are at best middle of the road team with little to no chance at Super Bowl.. Our OL on the right side is pathetic... It wasn't just the Jags Dline.. these players are bad and shouldn't really be starting for any team in the league.. this was at least a 2 year job to fix the OL and with our QB playing average at best, our LBs being suspect and many other holes on this team.. I think we are at least a year away from truly competing... so its important to win the next game but in the grand scheme of things we are still re-building..
RE: There's major pressure..  
Sean : 9/12/2018 11:27 am : link
In comment 14072581 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on every team to win.

Using the logic many are making about not selecting a QB, then Philly was technically rebuilding by selecting Wentz.

Yet, they won a SB and had the roster composition of being able to still field a team with dominant lines.

Going a different direction doesn't change the "win now" ridiculous narrative. It is just a different philosophy on team building.


Philly had a rebuilding year in 2016 as they went through the growing pains with Wentz.
I get it. The Giants started 0-2 in 2007 and won the Super Bowl.  
Boy Cord : 9/12/2018 11:32 am : link
They actually started 0-2.5 as they were looking pretty much finished at halftime of the Skins game as well.

But come on. Enough of this 'I'm going to sit back and let the entire season play out' crap. Someone just posted the Giants have started four of the past five seasons 0-2 (or worse). How TF has this been working out for us? Pretty shitty if you ask me.

3-13 last year. This team needs to start fk'n winning some games NOW because it isn't getting any easier @Hou and home Saints. What will this crowd say after a 0-4 start? 'Tis merely a flesh wound?!?! Wait. I know. It's still not over because the 1992 Chargers started 0-4 and made the playoffs.

I get it. The season isn't over until the Giants are mathematically eliminated. But who honestly thinks that is a good thing? Seriously. That sucks. Losing control of your destiny sucks. Tiebreakers suck. How about some prosperity for a change? How about playing with a lead? How about not scraping by in the hopes that we will have a repeat of 2007 (as if that happens in the NFL every year)?

What message do you think Shurmur is giving the team today? It's not a must win. The season won't be over. 2007. The 1992 Chargers. Here's a box of fk'n steak knives.

Maybe it doesn't matter whether the Giants win or lose. Maybe they simply suck and won't make the playoffs for the X number of times in X + 1 years. In this case, none of the games are must-wins, we just don't know it yet.

This IS a must win unless, in the end, it doesn't matter after all.







RE: Do people really think that this team is built to compete this year?  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 11:33 am : link
In comment 14072591 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
and if so what do they mean by compete?

because we are at best middle of the road team with little to no chance at Super Bowl.. Our OL on the right side is pathetic... It wasn't just the Jags Dline.. these players are bad and shouldn't really be starting for any team in the league.. this was at least a 2 year job to fix the OL and with our QB playing average at best, our LBs being suspect and many other holes on this team.. I think we are at least a year away from truly competing... so its important to win the next game but in the grand scheme of things we are still re-building..


By "compete," I mean actually be in the mix for a playoff spot still when Thanksgiving rolls around.

I think the Giants can accomplish that without being a SB contender.

I've said many times that I think we are another offseason away - we still need to address the OL a bit more, the DB depth needs some work and there are a few other small holes.

I think this can be a 7-9 win team depending on health, etc.

But this doesn't need to be a repeat of last year. This team should be a lot less dysfunctional and a bit more competitive.
It sounds foolish to say the 2nd game of the season  
gmen9892 : 9/12/2018 11:34 am : link
Is a "must-win", but given the pressure on a new coach on a win-now team, with the Jets possibly having a shot at 0-2, whether you like it or not, this is a MUST have.

Not even going to get into the rest of the schedule, but the media will be coming in HOT and heavy if the Giants start 0-2 again. Questions everywhere. I don't care who you are, nobody wants to have to go through that.

This team needs to learn what it feels like to get a big W again. Losing breeds losing, and we need to get one in the other column in the worst way Sunday. I know the same can be said about the Cowboys, but I truly feel like we are the more talented and better coached team.
Its ok fmic has his own narrative  
micky : 9/12/2018 11:35 am : link
Having different view is wrong in his view. 👍👍
This isn't basebal, in the NFL you only get 16 chances, so every game  
SterlingArcher : 9/12/2018 11:39 am : link
is a must win!
RE: It sounds foolish to say the 2nd game of the season  
Boy Cord : 9/12/2018 11:43 am : link
In comment 14072600 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
Is a "must-win", but given the pressure on a new coach on a win-now team, with the Jets possibly having a shot at 0-2, whether you like it or not, this is a MUST have.

Not even going to get into the rest of the schedule, but the media will be coming in HOT and heavy if the Giants start 0-2 again. Questions everywhere. I don't care who you are, nobody wants to have to go through that.

This team needs to learn what it feels like to get a big W again. Losing breeds losing, and we need to get one in the other column in the worst way Sunday. I know the same can be said about the Cowboys, but I truly feel like we are the more talented and better coached team.


I don't think it's foolish at all. 0-2 can become 0-3 @Hou vs. Deshaun Watson and JJ Watt very quickly and 0-3 can become 0-4 vs. the Saints and Drew Brees and Alvin Kamara.

Again, maybe this team isn't going anywhere and many fans will lose interest long before January arrives. But if this team wants to go to the playoffs, it's go time.
RE: Rinse and repeat  
baadbill : 9/12/2018 11:43 am : link
In comment 14072341 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
We've started 0-2 in 4 of the past 5 years...

This is basically the same thing we say every year lol


And, consistent with the odds, Giants did NOT make the playoffs in any of the years they started 0-2.

And, consistent with the odds, if they start 0-2 this year, they are, statistically speaking, tremendous long shots to make the playoffs.
.  
Danny Kanell : 9/12/2018 12:09 pm : link
I agree. It's a must win. And it's amazing how it's only week 2 and Giants football already isn't fun, we're just hoping to be relieved Monday morning that we survived to live to fight another week. Dark times the past few years.
RE: .  
Sean : 9/12/2018 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14072653 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
I agree. It's a must win. And it's amazing how it's only week 2 and Giants football already isn't fun, we're just hoping to be relieved Monday morning that we survived to live to fight another week. Dark times the past few years.


So true.
RE: This isn't basebal, in the NFL you only get 16 chances, so every game  
BigBlueinChicago : 9/12/2018 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14072605 SterlingArcher said:
Quote:
is a must win!


When you are say, 2-10 like the Giants were in 2017, the term "must win" isn't used.

I agree only because we are playing a crap team  
Boatie Warrant : 9/12/2018 12:18 pm : link
If this game was against an opponent that showed it had anything week one then I don't believe I would agree.

Dallas looked like crap and if we can't for once (in a long time) stomp a bad team then things are only going to get worse.

It is amazing sometimes how quickly a team can spiral down (or up) depending on the moral in the locker room.
RE: RE: No it's not  
BigBlueinChicago : 9/12/2018 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14072550 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14072469 AnnapolisMike said:


Quote:


You need to get to 9-10 wins and to make the playoffs, so the must wins start when losses hit 6. I think though that Dallas is ripe for the picking here. Eli has always played decently in Dallas as well. A loss here would really sting.



It's like 2013, though - once you get into a hole like that, you aren't going to get out of it. This is the logic people were using that season @ 0-3, 0-4... 0-5.....

The Giants aren't good enough to dig out of holes like that.


And what happens when you get to 0-2, 0-3, 0-4 you can see in the play on the field where guys are playing tight and expecting disaster to strike at any moment. All of these games to me are interconnected. Confidence is not week to week.

For me, the way they lose Sunday would be something to watch for.

If both the Giants and Cowboys play clean games on both sides and you lose by the FG, then maybe you can project good things ahead.

However....if Sunday we see some of the same patterns from the past developing again that we have seen in prior years and last week (dropped passes, poor o-line play) leading to a convincing defeat similar to what happened last year down there on Opening Day, then go ahead and throw in the towel, because incredibly poor one-on-one blocking never improves itself. You either can straight up block your man or you can't.

The o-line cannot wreck the season again before October.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 12:36 pm : link
Yeah, I think as a group, teams start to form confidence or lose it. A team with confidence in what they're doing can rebound from losing or bounce back within a game where they're down believing they can still win.

A team like this needs a confidence building win against a division rival in the worst way. It's the type of thing they can reach back to and use as a building block. Another loss, and everyone starts looking around the room saying "man, this is going to be another long year, isn't it..."

We can't have that happen. It will be very, very hard to draw moral victories out of this if we ultimately lose. This is a hugely important game. I really can't overstate it.
RE: RE: Do people really think that this team is built to compete this year?  
Rick5 : 9/12/2018 12:37 pm : link
In comment 14072599 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14072591 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


and if so what do they mean by compete?

because we are at best middle of the road team with little to no chance at Super Bowl.. Our OL on the right side is pathetic... It wasn't just the Jags Dline.. these players are bad and shouldn't really be starting for any team in the league.. this was at least a 2 year job to fix the OL and with our QB playing average at best, our LBs being suspect and many other holes on this team.. I think we are at least a year away from truly competing... so its important to win the next game but in the grand scheme of things we are still re-building..



By "compete," I mean actually be in the mix for a playoff spot still when Thanksgiving rolls around.

I think the Giants can accomplish that without being a SB contender.

I've said many times that I think we are another offseason away - we still need to address the OL a bit more, the DB depth needs some work and there are a few other small holes.

I think this can be a 7-9 win team depending on health, etc.

But this doesn't need to be a repeat of last year. This team should be a lot less dysfunctional and a bit more competitive.

+1
A must win??  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 1:09 pm : link
- Another loss would be devastating?
- We are a bottom barrel team if we lose?
- If this is supposed to be a playoff team, you have to win this one?
- Giants have to win this game or things could get ugly?
- If they start 0-2 this year, they are tremendous long shots to make the playoffs?

You guys kill me.

This team is literally trying to figure out how to block guys without sticking their legs out, catch balls that hit them in their hands and score more than 1 TD per game.

wake up folks...

RE: A must win??  
family progtitioner : 9/12/2018 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14072734 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
- Another loss would be devastating?
- We are a bottom barrel team if we lose?
- If this is supposed to be a playoff team, you have to win this one?
- Giants have to win this game or things could get ugly?
- If they start 0-2 this year, they are tremendous long shots to make the playoffs?

You guys kill me.

This team is literally trying to figure out how to block guys without sticking their legs out, catch balls that hit them in their hands and score more than 1 TD per game.

wake up folks...


So it doesn't matter because they already suck. Got it, it would be a lot less stressful for me to watch if I could have that mentality. I just can't, though. I know I'm delusional but I would like to see them win for once.
I'm not losing sleep  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/12/2018 1:15 pm : link
Over a Cole Beasley led aerial bombardment passing attack.

God that team sucks.
RE: A must win??  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 1:16 pm : link
In comment 14072734 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
- Another loss would be devastating?
- We are a bottom barrel team if we lose?
- If this is supposed to be a playoff team, you have to win this one?
- Giants have to win this game or things could get ugly?
- If they start 0-2 this year, they are tremendous long shots to make the playoffs?

You guys kill me.

This team is literally trying to figure out how to block guys without sticking their legs out, catch balls that hit them in their hands and score more than 1 TD per game.

wake up folks...


We lost by one score to a team that was a game away from the Super Bowl last year.

Let's not make it sound like the Giants didn't even belong on a football field (which you are doing here...)

Last year's opener was FAR worse than this.
As a die hard fan, I will root and love it if they win  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 1:17 pm : link
but keep it somewhat real as to what this game truly means for a team that has plenty of restructuring ahead of it...
If the Giants,  
RinR : 9/12/2018 1:17 pm : link
Eagles and Redskins all lose this week the Giants are 1 game out of first.

And this spiraling out of control and unraveling if they lose implies Shurmer has lost the team after 2 games.

Sorry - not buying it.

RE: If the Giants,  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14072748 RinR said:
Quote:
Eagles and Redskins all lose this week the Giants are 1 game out of first.

And this spiraling out of control and unraveling if they lose implies Shurmer has lost the team after 2 games.

Sorry - not buying it.


You don't have to buy it - but if you think the Giants are built to get back into contention after an 0-2 start, I'm not sure what to tell you. Just go and look at how this team fared the last handful of times they started that way.

2007 was over a decade ago now.
Fully expect Dallas to bring the kitchen sink against Eli  
Simms11 : 9/12/2018 1:20 pm : link
and ask our porous Oline to consistently pick it up?! Their LBers are also very active, but I think Barkley and Engram are guys that could give them fits. Let's face it, there's no Jack on their team, but they still have three very good LBers which could put a crimp in our plans on offense.
RE: RE: If the Giants,  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14072750 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

You don't have to buy it - but if you think the Giants are built to get back into contention after an 0-2 start, I'm not sure what to tell you.


who thinks they are built to do anything remotely close to this anyway?
If McAdoo  
RinR : 9/12/2018 1:24 pm : link
as still the coach I'd be buying it but too early to say they cannot bounce back even after a loss to Dallas.
RE: If McAdoo  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 1:31 pm : link
In comment 14072757 RinR said:
Quote:
as still the coach I'd be buying it but too early to say they cannot bounce back even after a loss to Dallas.


Well, what did they do in 2015 when Tom Coughlin was still the coach and they started 0-2?

6-10.

The time before that?

6-10.

The time before that?

7-9.

So, I'm not sure Ben McAdoo is the guy to blame.... as much as I'd love to.
Agree with OP  
rocco8112 : 9/12/2018 1:37 pm : link
This is like the Super Bowl for this squad.If the Giants drop this game it will be a long year. This team is a team of losers right now. Everyone is scrambling for positives, bottom line is the team lost again and shit the bed in crunch time with the final drive and muffed punt.

Agree that if the Giants drop this one they will drop the road game against the other Texas team and this season will be over before Halloween as OP said.

If you want the Giants to have a competitive season that keeps us interested through December, this is a must win game.

I hope the staff does not allow the o line to fuck another season. If Flowers sucks early , which he will, put in backup. This game is the season. All hands on deck and game should be coached with a desperate need to win.
Isn't every game must win?  
RobCarpenter : 9/12/2018 1:44 pm : link
Also..

RE: Agree with OP  
family progtitioner : 9/12/2018 1:49 pm : link
In comment 14072773 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
This is like the Super Bowl for this squad.If the Giants drop this game it will be a long year. This team is a team of losers right now. Everyone is scrambling for positives, bottom line is the team lost again and shit the bed in crunch time with the final drive and muffed punt.

Agree that if the Giants drop this one they will drop the road game against the other Texas team and this season will be over before Halloween as OP said.

If you want the Giants to have a competitive season that keeps us interested through December, this is a must win game.

I hope the staff does not allow the o line to fuck another season. If Flowers sucks early , which he will, put in backup. This game is the season. All hands on deck and game should be coached with a desperate need to win.


I agree 100% with this. If we want a year where we're not discussing next year's draft in Oct, they need to win this game
I think they have zero shot at the playoffs  
Greg from LI : 9/12/2018 1:55 pm : link
But I would like to not be a laughingstock yet again. They should be able to beat the Cowboys.
Why does it matter?  
Mike from Ohio : 9/12/2018 1:56 pm : link
If they lose, are those who believe it is a "must win" game going to stop watching? Or does it eliminate us from the playoffs? What if they beat Dallas - does week three become must win also, or is getting to 1-2 from 0-2 better than from 1-1?

Instead of talking about his as a must win game, I think it is better to say that this week will be a good barometer of where this team is. A win shows they can beat the lesser teams and hopefully be competitive. A loss likely means they are one of the weaker teams.

There is so much parity in the NFL that what separates the bad from average teams that almost nothing in the early season is "must win."
RE: Why does it matter?  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 2:01 pm : link
In comment 14072792 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
If they lose, are those who believe it is a "must win" game going to stop watching? Or does it eliminate us from the playoffs? What if they beat Dallas - does week three become must win also, or is getting to 1-2 from 0-2 better than from 1-1?

Instead of talking about his as a must win game, I think it is better to say that this week will be a good barometer of where this team is. A win shows they can beat the lesser teams and hopefully be competitive. A loss likely means they are one of the weaker teams.

There is so much parity in the NFL that what separates the bad from average teams that almost nothing in the early season is "must win."


No, I won't stop watching, and obviously it's impossible to be eliminated 2 games in - but I'll be fairly convinced that this season will never even get to an "interesting" point if we lose again on Sunday. I think we'll be out of the playoff race entirely by the end of October.

If we win, I think well build off it.

Certain games are crossroads. And I don't think Week 2 is too early for this team to be at one based on what we've seen in recent years.
I won't stop watching  
Greg from LI : 9/12/2018 2:06 pm : link
But I'll go back to looking forward to seeing the game with the same anticipation with which I look forward to getting dental work done.
I'd agree it is an important game  
Mike from Ohio : 9/12/2018 2:08 pm : link
If they can't beat Dallas, there are not a lot of teams on the schedule they are likely to beat. I also fully expect them to beat Dallas because they played better than I expected against Jacksonville (although my expectations were fairly low to begin with).
Arc  
Pascal4554 : 9/12/2018 2:10 pm : link
I was going to start a similar thread. First division game for the new regime- I agree this is a big game for the new regime and for the fan base after last season. The hardcore Giant fans I know outside of BBI were very up beat about the Jacksonville loss. But I feel a loss to Dallas would be a different story.

I think Giant fans lose interest big time for this season if we lose to Dallas. Though not convinced the team collapses if we lose in terms of effort. I think the culture of the team is starting to change and Shurmur is a class above McAdoo.
Indeed, this is a must win...  
bw in dc : 9/12/2018 2:15 pm : link
I know these divisional rivalries are unique and you can throw records out the window, but I will be hugely disappointed if we can't beat this Dallas team.

Their offense is so bad every player on it should get parking handicap license plates. They are that physically challenged. Completely inept. If we can just get to 17 points, we should win very comfortably.
I was gonna post  
UESBLUE : 9/12/2018 2:25 pm : link
the same thread in a cpl days. Technically no but for all intents and purposes, yes. If we want to be taken seriously.
RE: A must win??  
baadbill : 9/12/2018 3:43 pm : link
In comment 14072734 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
- Another loss would be devastating?
- We are a bottom barrel team if we lose?
- If this is supposed to be a playoff team, you have to win this one?
- Giants have to win this game or things could get ugly?
- If they start 0-2 this year, they are tremendous long shots to make the playoffs?

You guys kill me.

This team is literally trying to figure out how to block guys without sticking their legs out, catch balls that hit them in their hands and score more than 1 TD per game.

wake up folks...


I don't think anyone expects a SB this year... it's only how long will the team be relevant in the run for a playoff spot... and if they go 0-2 those odds become prohibitively against. I suppose your point is that you believe those odds to be prohibitively against before the first game was even played ... and that may be true ... but the odds were probably better than the 88% against they would be once they went 0-2
I don't know that it's a must win  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 3:47 pm : link
They could always turn around and win the next 14.

One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.
RE: I don't know that it's a must win  
Sean : 9/12/2018 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14072946 Go Terps said:
Quote:
They could always turn around and win the next 14.

One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.


What if we donít though? What if we are looking at 1-7 at the bye? Look at the upcoming schedule. Then what?

Ownership has backed itself in a corner if this team doesnít win. Iím horrified Gettleman will overreach for a QB next year under this scenario where Darnold checked off all boxes for NYG franchise QB, perfect transition from Eli. I think this is a really troubling proposition.
RE: RE: I don't know that it's a must win  
RobCarpenter : 9/12/2018 3:56 pm : link
In comment 14072952 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 14072946 Go Terps said:


Quote:


They could always turn around and win the next 14.

One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.



What if we donít though? What if we are looking at 1-7 at the bye? Look at the upcoming schedule. Then what?

Ownership has backed itself in a corner if this team doesnít win. Iím horrified Gettleman will overreach for a QB next year under this scenario where Darnold checked off all boxes for NYG franchise QB, perfect transition from Eli. I think this is a really troubling proposition.


Gettleman is not the type to overreach for a QB, he's said as much.

And Darnold didn't check off all the boxes for the NYG. The front office disagreed about which QB was the top QB in this draft.

But since Darnold beat the Lions, he's a franchise QB.
Sean  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 3:58 pm : link
If we start 1-7 and have another 3-13, 4-12 type year then I'd advocate for the GM and entire coaching staff to be fired, and for a new GM with no recent historical ties to the Giants to be brought in and initiate a proper new rebuilding project. Enough is enough.
They aren't backed..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 3:58 pm : link
into a corner.

They will have a young RB to build with and a couple top talents to catch the ball.

If they have to part ways with Eli, they can, and they can release or restructure some of the poor contracts. Most of the contracts out there can be terminated without a ton of dead money.

I don't think it will come to that, but they could reasonably turn over a fair share of the roster next year (like they did this year) and still compete.
RE: RE: I don't know that it's a must win  
bw in dc : 9/12/2018 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14072952 Sean said:
Quote:

What if we donít though? What if we are looking at 1-7 at the bye? Look at the upcoming schedule. Then what?



Let me tell you something, that'll be a blessing in disguise for this organization. At that point, you quasi-tank the rest of the season and prepare for 2019 and beyond. This is a great draft coming up for D and Olinemen. And there is some depth at corner.

Jettison Eli and begin the hunt for a new QB solution.

Granted, it's a year late...
RE: They aren't backed..  
Greg from LI : 9/12/2018 4:03 pm : link
In comment 14072963 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I don't think it will come to that, but they could reasonably turn over a fair share of the roster next year (like they did this year) and still compete.


I might have some faith in that if it hadn't been five years since they could even pretend to be competitive.
I just think we need to discern the difference between "must win"  
Leg of Theismann : 9/12/2018 4:03 pm : link
and "we really want the Giants to win".

To me, a "must win" is late in the season and basically is needed to win in order for a team to mathematically stay alive with reasonable "control of their own destiny". I know the 12% stat, but this is a special situation where we have an entirely new regime AND their first game was against a top 5-10 team. After Sunday we can't be more than 2 games out of first place, period.

I think a better term would be this is a "must play well" game. If we play well and fight until the end, but we don't get the bounces or Dallas happens to play much better than they're expected to play, and we lose, I would say we shouldn't completely freak out or lose hope altogether. "Must win" usually implies to me that we MUST win otherwise we might as well give up on the season, which I won't be ready to do regardless. That said, it's a very important game and the Giants need to start to gel and play good football sooner rather than later.

We started 0-2 and won the Super Bowl in '07.
My point being  
Leg of Theismann : 9/12/2018 4:06 pm : link
If we come out looking like shit and completely uncompetitive, like we did in Dallas a year ago, then yeah I would say it's time to panic and very much lower expectations. But if we lose a hard-fought well-played game let's keep the pitch forks in the shed (for at least another week lol).
RE: There's major pressure..  
Leg of Theismann : 9/12/2018 4:09 pm : link
In comment 14072581 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on every team to win.

Using the logic many are making about not selecting a QB, then Philly was technically rebuilding by selecting Wentz.

Yet, they won a SB and had the roster composition of being able to still field a team with dominant lines.

Going a different direction doesn't change the "win now" ridiculous narrative. It is just a different philosophy on team building.


FatMan,

Philly was a championship-caliber team regardless of Wentz last year (as proven by the fact they won the SB WITHOUT Wentz). I don't think the Giants are Super Bowl caliber team with any of the rookie QBs this year, and are only Super Bowl caliber if it turns out Eli Can return to his 2011 or 2014-2015 form.
RE: I just think we need to discern the difference between  
Greg from LI : 9/12/2018 4:11 pm : link
In comment 14072971 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
We started 0-2 and won the Super Bowl in '07.


Utterly, completely different team. A lot of talent on that roster, a very good OL, had won the division in 2005 and made a wild card in 2006. A young QB with potential instead of a geezer who looks to be on the downslope.

No comparison.
RE: RE: There's major pressure..  
Leg of Theismann : 9/12/2018 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14072981 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 14072581 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


on every team to win.

Using the logic many are making about not selecting a QB, then Philly was technically rebuilding by selecting Wentz.

Yet, they won a SB and had the roster composition of being able to still field a team with dominant lines.

Going a different direction doesn't change the "win now" ridiculous narrative. It is just a different philosophy on team building.



FatMan,

Philly was a championship-caliber team regardless of Wentz last year (as proven by the fact they won the SB WITHOUT Wentz). I don't think the Giants are Super Bowl caliber team with any of the rookie QBs this year, and are only Super Bowl caliber if it turns out Eli Can return to his 2011 or 2014-2015 form.


Also, I don't think they would be Super Bowl caliber without Barkley on the team. They needed a few things to be SB-caliber:

1. Barkley
2. Eli returns to old Eli
3. Beckham hasn't lost a step
4. O-Line is much improved and at least serviceable
5. Defense returns to 2016-form or close to it

Philly, meanwhile, was Super Bowl caliber even without Wentz playing.
RE: Sean  
Rick5 : 9/12/2018 4:13 pm : link
In comment 14072962 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If we start 1-7 and have another 3-13, 4-12 type year then I'd advocate for the GM and entire coaching staff to be fired, and for a new GM with no recent historical ties to the Giants to be brought in and initiate a proper new rebuilding project. Enough is enough.

Unless they are 0-16, I can't imagine a scenario where Gettleman and Shurmur get fired after 1 season.
Let me..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 4:16 pm : link
just point out that it isn't just hypotheticals being thrown around here regarding having a terrible season.

Several of you seemingly think they will be bad and that the 0-1 start alone is indication of it, despite them competing very well against Jax.

Like I said earlier - if they beat Dallas, I fully expect them to be at least 2-2 after 4 games as they get the Saints at home in 2 weeks.
RE: I don't know that it's a must win  
RobCarpenter : 9/12/2018 4:16 pm : link
In comment 14072946 Go Terps said:
Quote:
They could always turn around and win the next 14.

One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.


I'm curious what you think the Giants should have done differently this offseason. Traded Eli and taken Darnold? How does that fix the OL, and who is the RB?

Less than half of last year's roster is still on the team. That seems like a fairly large revamping to me.

These are the returning players from last year:

1. Eli Apple
2. Odell Beckham
3. Landon Collins
4. Donte Deayon
5. Zak DeOssie
6. Rhett Ellison
7. Evan Engram
8. Ereck Flowers
9. Wayne Gallman
10. B.J. Goodson
11. John Greco
12. Jon Halapio
13. Damon Harrison
14. Janoris Jenkins
15. Eli Manning
16. Aldrick Rosas
17. Sterling Shepard
18. Shane Smith
19. Dalvin Tomlinson
20. Olivier Vernon
21. Chad Wheeler
22. Jordan Williams
23. Kerry Wynn
RE: Let me..  
Sean : 9/12/2018 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14072988 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
just point out that it isn't just hypotheticals being thrown around here regarding having a terrible season.

Several of you seemingly think they will be bad and that the 0-1 start alone is indication of it, despite them competing very well against Jax.

Like I said earlier - if they beat Dallas, I fully expect them to be at least 2-2 after 4 games as they get the Saints at home in 2 weeks.


Forgive me for being beaten down by this:

2013, 0-6 start
2014, 3-9 start
2015, 1-6 finish
2017, 3-13

Awful, awful football. Week 1 was a lot of the same. Dominated at the LOS, missed throws, drops, etc.
I noticed..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 4:22 pm : link
you left off 2016 from that list.

I can't help it if you're beat down. I also can't help if people think this is the same football team.
RE: Sean  
FStubbs : 9/12/2018 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14072962 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If we start 1-7 and have another 3-13, 4-12 type year then I'd advocate for the GM and entire coaching staff to be fired, and for a new GM with no recent historical ties to the Giants to be brought in and initiate a proper new rebuilding project. Enough is enough.


You can't fire Gettleman after one year even if the team goes 3-13 again (which it might given the brutal schedule). You have to give him a chance to rebuild and one year isn't a fair chance.

Two years of 3-13 under DG would be another matter.
With this OL,  
Doomster : 9/12/2018 4:23 pm : link
think this team is a playoff team?
RE: RE: I don't know that it's a must win  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14072952 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 14072946 Go Terps said:


Quote:


They could always turn around and win the next 14.

One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.



What if we donít though? What if we are looking at 1-7 at the bye? Look at the upcoming schedule. Then what?

Ownership has backed itself in a corner if this team doesnít win. Iím horrified Gettleman will overreach for a QB next year under this scenario where Darnold checked off all boxes for NYG franchise QB, perfect transition from Eli. I think this is a really troubling proposition.


Why are you presuming we need/will go with a QB next year if we start this year 1-7? Suggests that Eli was the driver behind some hypothetical poor start and that a change to a younger more mobile rookie would make a difference...seems like a stretch.
RE: I don't know that it's a must win  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 4:29 pm : link
In comment 14072946 Go Terps said:
Quote:
They could always turn around and win the next 14.

One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.


We got Barkley...he isn't helping our future?
RE: RE: RE: I don't know that it's a must win  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 4:32 pm : link
In comment 14072966 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14072952 Sean said:


Quote:



What if we donít though? What if we are looking at 1-7 at the bye? Look at the upcoming schedule. Then what?





Let me tell you something, that'll be a blessing in disguise for this organization. At that point, you quasi-tank the rest of the season and prepare for 2019 and beyond. This is a great draft coming up for D and Olinemen. And there is some depth at corner.

Jettison Eli and begin the hunt for a new QB solution.

Granted, it's a year late...


Again with this view that "a new QB is the solution". Did Eli do something wrong, or not enough, in game 1?
key to sunday  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2018 4:38 pm : link
score first, you get up on the cowboys they are not coming back, as soon as they habe to rely on daks arm they are finished...

carolina got up and basically sat on the ball the entire 2nd half
RobCarpenter  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 4:40 pm : link
It's a fairly large revamping, but I don't think it went far enough.

For starters, I wouldn't have considered hiring Gettleman to be the GM. It's nothing against Gettleman, who I think is quite competent. It's about him having a history with the Giants and being 67 years old. We're going to be replacing him relatively soon, and probably with Kevin Abrams. Abrams is also competent, but he has been part of the problem just like everyone in the building has been these past five years.

On the roster, I would have released or traded Eli. I would have traded Beckham. That has nothing to do with my feelings about him personally - I just wouldn't prioritize paying a WR in the Giants' situation. Ditto drafting Barkley. I think he looks like a wonderful player and a great kid...it doesn't change the fact that there's a pretty high chance he's not even on this team in 5 years. That's just the nature of the position he plays.

Basically, I think the Giants approached this offseason aiming to win with Eli. Given his age, that means winning now. That's not what I would have done. But here we are. They went for it, so they've got to go win now.
RE: RE: A must win??  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 4:41 pm : link
In comment 14072936 baadbill said:
Quote:

This team is literally trying to figure out how to block guys without sticking their legs out, catch balls that hit them in their hands and score more than 1 TD per game.

wake up folks...




I don't think anyone expects a SB this year... it's only how long will the team be relevant in the run for a playoff spot... and if they go 0-2 those odds become prohibitively against. I suppose your point is that you believe those odds to be prohibitively against before the first game was even played ... and that may be true ... but the odds were probably better than the 88% against they would be once they went 0-2


I think this thread is far too ahead of itself on nonsensical crap, hence my post.

The concept of worrying about the odds we make the playoffs after an 0-2 start is meaningless. When you start seeing things like better blocking, securing more catches moving the chains and scoring more than 1 TD per game, the playoff odds will take care of themselves...not the other way around.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't know that it's a must win  
bw in dc : 9/12/2018 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14073008 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Let me tell you something, that'll be a blessing in disguise for this organization. At that point, you quasi-tank the rest of the season and prepare for 2019 and beyond. This is a great draft coming up for D and Olinemen. And there is some depth at corner.

Jettison Eli and begin the hunt for a new QB solution.

Granted, it's a year late...



Again with this view that "a new QB is the solution". Did Eli do something wrong, or not enough, in game 1?


He wasn't great, wasn't hideous - basically okay. There is room to debate that he may have cost us the game by missing OBJ on a sure TD. But that's already been dissected to death earlier this week.

My thesis on getting rid of Eli - for 2019 - is based on this year going sideways early. That's all. I was piggy backing off a comment someone made about a 1-7 start considering our schedule. Again, if that does happen, then I believe you have to look to the future much quicker and start fresh with new blood at QB.

RE: RE: RE: A must win??  
baadbill : 9/12/2018 4:45 pm : link
In comment 14073015 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14072936 baadbill said:


Quote:



This team is literally trying to figure out how to block guys without sticking their legs out, catch balls that hit them in their hands and score more than 1 TD per game.

wake up folks...




I don't think anyone expects a SB this year... it's only how long will the team be relevant in the run for a playoff spot... and if they go 0-2 those odds become prohibitively against. I suppose your point is that you believe those odds to be prohibitively against before the first game was even played ... and that may be true ... but the odds were probably better than the 88% against they would be once they went 0-2



I think this thread is far too ahead of itself on nonsensical crap, hence my post.

The concept of worrying about the odds we make the playoffs after an 0-2 start is meaningless. When you start seeing things like better blocking, securing more catches moving the chains and scoring more than 1 TD per game, the playoff odds will take care of themselves...not the other way around.


You, of course, are free to think what you like. Statistics are, however, fact based. They are reality. Whatever chances any team has to make the playoffs become statistically remote once they go 0-2. Things don't just "take care of themselves". Things follow the long established statistics.
C'mon now..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 4:49 pm : link
choosing not to make ridiculous roster moves doesn't mean they're putting all their eggs in any basket:

Quote:
On the roster, I would have released or traded Eli. I would have traded Beckham. That has nothing to do with my feelings about him personally - I just wouldn't prioritize paying a WR in the Giants' situation. Ditto drafting Barkley. I think he looks like a wonderful player and a great kid...it doesn't change the fact that there's a pretty high chance he's not even on this team in 5 years. That's just the nature of the position he plays.

Basically, I think the Giants approached this offseason aiming to win with Eli. Given his age, that means winning now. That's not what I would have done. But here we are. They went for it, so they've got to go win now.


The giants did what any reasonable team would do under the cap - they are trying to build around the parts they have with a focus on strength for the future.

We know you want the model of having a cheap QB. But under your scenario, the Giants would lose Eli, Beckham and not draft Barkley. That's not any way to build a roster either. You can't hit on draft picks and then trade them for uncertainty.

I don't se how people can see the plethora of moves made last year and think it wasn't enough - if they have any understanding of the salary cap. Doing anything else would leave a ton of dead money and a roster more suited to compete in Division I-AA
not a must win  
xtian : 9/12/2018 4:50 pm : link
but pretty close to it if we want a valid shot at the playoffs. otherwise, we probably will be anything from a poor team to a .500 one.
Imagine how badly we would have gotten our as kicked  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/12/2018 4:56 pm : link
If Darn old and Guice were drafted. At least Hernandez shores up the jail break oline a bit.
FMiC  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 4:56 pm : link
We have a ton of dead money now doing things the way we have been.

I don't see what has been done (starting with the Gettleman hire) as having an eye toward the future. I see it as trying to win now at the expense of the future. There are absolutely realistic scenarios where we have a new GM, HC, and QB 3 years from now.

They're trying to win now. That's fine - if they pull off another title with Eli no one will be happier than I will be. But I expect them to go do it.
Googs  
joeinpa : 9/12/2018 4:57 pm : link
The better question is did Eli do enough to win the game. I think he missed a few game changing plays
Never before  
chopperhatch : 9/12/2018 5:10 pm : link
Have I witnessed this place as being so fucking miserable after week 1. Especially after losing to the AFC champion runner up by 5 stinking points. Not surprisingly, its the same group.
My question is, how are you not miserable?  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 5:15 pm : link
Or more appropriately, who are you not pissed off?

We've been watching shit football for 5 years. Last year was an embarrassment and they quit like dogs. We just spent the offseason doubling down on what's been a terrible offensive team, and the offense was again terrible to start this year.

We're supposed to be encouraged because we lost our season opener at home by only 5 points? Unbelievable.

RE: RE: RE: RE: A must win??  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 5:15 pm : link
In comment 14073022 baadbill said:
Quote:

You, of course, are free to think what you like. Statistics are, however, fact based. They are reality. Whatever chances any team has to make the playoffs become statistically remote once they go 0-2. Things don't just "take care of themselves". Things follow the long established statistics.


Go run the statistics of teams that make the playoffs that average 15 points a game because they can't block and drop too many passes.
*How not who  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 5:16 pm : link
.
RE: My question is, how are you not miserable?  
chopperhatch : 9/12/2018 5:22 pm : link
In comment 14073047 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Or more appropriately, who are you not pissed off?

We've been watching shit football for 5 years. Last year was an embarrassment and they quit like dogs. We just spent the offseason doubling down on what's been a terrible offensive team, and the offense was again terrible to start this year.

We're supposed to be encouraged because we lost our season opener at home by only 5 points? Unbelievable.


Because like the majority of the fan base here have said, I too thought they looked pretty damned solid against an awfully good football team. No, the O line isnt super tight right now, probably wont be for several weeks if at all this year, but it is LIGHT years better than it was last year.

A couple of dropped balls get caught, and we probably win that game.

Im not miserable because thats your role. Just as I said, Beckham cpuld have a terrific game and you would still not give him credit. Like I said before, your act and song are tired, yet you keep on presenting it like people here give a shit what you think Terps. Why do you even post? You haven't presented a new thought in at least 3 years.
RE: Googs  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 5:25 pm : link
In comment 14073033 joeinpa said:
Quote:
The better question is did Eli do enough to win the game. I think he missed a few game changing plays


I hear you. Go read my question again above...its in there.
They lost a home opener because they scored 15 pts  
joeinpa : 9/12/2018 5:30 pm : link
They did this prior to the quarterback they passed on, a guy I never dreamed they would have a chance to draft before the season started, had a very impressive debut

While we Giants fans are wondering if it s the same old, same old, the Jets fans are on cloud 9 because if said quarterback.

It s a crummy start to the season. I m angry and disgusted. I m with Terps, how can you not be pissed.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2018 5:31 pm : link
I did not think the team looked that good Sunday. I was very encouraged to see Odell looking good - the injury had me a bit concerned - but the OL (which has killed multiple seasons by now) looked bad again.

The game didn't feel as close as the score indicated.

It's one game in a new system against a great D. But the onus is on the team to demonstrate they are a good football team - I think assuming this is a good team working out the kinks is misguided given the precedent over the past five years. Weeks three to seven look very tough. Not beating a mediocre Cowboys team makes me think getting to .500 at the bye would be very unlikely.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/12/2018 5:34 pm : link
To jump off GT's point, if the team isn't competitive right now - with an expensive 30 year old LT, good D players in their prime, some elite skill players in their primes - how does the team become competitive as Eli declines (or continues to decline, depending on your view of his play)?
I agree with the OP as well  
Vanzetti : 9/12/2018 5:38 pm : link
Of course, you can argue that they can lose in Dallas and win the next five and everything is good.

But if they lose in Dallas, they are not going on a big winning streak.

To me, the performance of the offense last week was very disappointing. They scored only 15 points and gave 7 points back with a Pick 6. So really that is a net 8 points.

Eli did not play well, the OL was still a problem, and Engram played the worst game of any TE in Giants history. Missed 4-5 catches and his blocking made Ereck Flowers look like Jackie Slater. He was truly utter trash.

So, to me, this offense has to have a big game against Dallas and come away with a victory.
They've been playing the 'they have one more run in them'  
jcn56 : 9/12/2018 5:38 pm : link
song since the Super Bowl countdown clock in 2012.

Hasn't been the case for a few years now, and unfortunately it doesn't seem like the case this year either. If they truly were looking for an upward swing to carry them into 19 then the ownership of this team is more lost than I thought.
RE: RobCarpenter  
RobCarpenter : 9/12/2018 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14073014 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's a fairly large revamping, but I don't think it went far enough.

For starters, I wouldn't have considered hiring Gettleman to be the GM. It's nothing against Gettleman, who I think is quite competent. It's about him having a history with the Giants and being 67 years old. We're going to be replacing him relatively soon, and probably with Kevin Abrams. Abrams is also competent, but he has been part of the problem just like everyone in the building has been these past five years.

On the roster, I would have released or traded Eli. I would have traded Beckham. That has nothing to do with my feelings about him personally - I just wouldn't prioritize paying a WR in the Giants' situation. Ditto drafting Barkley. I think he looks like a wonderful player and a great kid...it doesn't change the fact that there's a pretty high chance he's not even on this team in 5 years. That's just the nature of the position he plays.

Basically, I think the Giants approached this offseason aiming to win with Eli. Given his age, that means winning now. That's not what I would have done. But here we are. They went for it, so they've got to go win now.


1. Gettleman's age shouldn't be an issue. If you don't like that he had worked for the Giants previously, that's one thing, but his age shouldn't be it.

2. The Maras would never trade Eli.

3. Trading OBJ doesn't make sense to me. He's one of the top 3 WRs in the NFL. He's not someone you can replace.
Rob  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 5:48 pm : link
1. Gettleman's age IS an issue. Thankfully he appears to be beating his illness, but even if he never became ill in the first place the clock is always going to be ticking on a 67 year old GM. That's just a fact of life. Hiring him tells me ownership isn't looking much past the next couple years (i.e. the rest of Eli's career).

2. I agree - the Maras wouldn't trade/release Eli. I think they still carry the scars of what happened with Simms. I sympathize, and my love for Eli is eternal, but that is no way to run a team. It is a MASSIVE blind spot.

3. Paying Beckham (or any other WR) doesn't make sense to me when the OL can't block and the QB is 37, immobile, and quite possibly shell shocked after years of abuse. We aren't going to get the return on the investment if we can't get him the ball in the best possible situations for him to succeed. We just saw clear examples of that Sunday. Since we drafted Beckham in 2014 our offense has averaged 21 PPG. It's a question of roster construction - his position is heavily reliant on the rest of the offense functioning properly.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 5:50 pm : link
For what it's worth, I don't think the result is any different if Darnold is under center with Gallman+ @ RB.

This wasn't really a game where I watched it and said "yeah, we made the wrong call on the QB issue" because I don't think Darnold would have changed the outcome.

In order for that to happen, you have to take Barkley's long TD off the board and then assume that Gallman, etc. would have been able to give us the same ground production AND if not, Darnold would need to outperform Eli against the same defense by a fair margin - and Eli really wasn't bad.

Remember - Davis Webb looked pretty good against a lot of the Lions' defensive starters. I'm going to go ahead and guess that they will have one of the worst defenses in football this year. They are really bad. They have a top flight corner in Darius Slay and very little otherwise. Ziggy Ansah is a good player but he does miss some games.

Have to be careful about drawing too many conclusions based on Week 1. It's just a tendency everyone has because they've been waiting so long for games that count. But a lot of wonky things can happen in week 1.

All of that said - I truly believe the outcome of this Dallas game will determine where the team goes. We can get caught up in semantics if we want or argue about what "must win" really means - but I am of the belief that if we win, we'll hang in there and compete for a good chunk of the year. If not - I think things could start getting ugly very fast. The groans won't take long to return if we can't do better than 15 points with the weapons we have now.
1-1 > 0-2  
JoeMoney19 : 9/12/2018 6:08 pm : link
We shouldn't look down on any opponent. We suck until further notice.
I agree  
mrvax : 9/12/2018 6:12 pm : link
It's a must win not because of statistics but the team needs to feel good about their efforts. Very important psychologically to get that win under the belt now and believe in themselves and their new coaches/scheme.

If they lose, I don't want to consider would've, could've, should've.
It is unacceptable  
rocco8112 : 9/12/2018 6:15 pm : link
for the Giants to have a season that is no longer fun to watch before November is even over.

If they drop this one, with a road game the following week, I think there is a very high chance the season does young.


Must win game.

RE: They've been playing the 'they have one more run in them'  
bw in dc : 9/12/2018 6:49 pm : link
In comment 14073067 jcn56 said:
Quote:


If they truly were looking for an upward swing to carry them into 19 then the ownership of this team is more lost than I thought.


You're kidding, right?

That "upward swing" was declared loud and clear when Mara had his nervous breakdown over Eli Gate. He got exactly what he wanted to hear from Accoris's hires, Gettleman and Shurmur: Eli still has the goods to lead this team where they want to go.

So the plan is hatched - what can we do to make Eli better to get there? Get a RB to take the pressure off Eli, build a better oline to take the pressure off Eli, smooth things over with OBJ to take pressure off Eli, don't draft a highly rated franchise QB to take pressure of Eli, etc.

Then that plan is implemented: go hard for Norwell but miss; go hard and over-pay for Solder; sign Omameh; trade for veteran LB; use #2 pick at RB (the position easiest to play right away in the NFL) avoid QB controversy by not drafting Darnold/Rosen/Allen; re-negotiate a deal for OBJ, draft the Lauletta project knowing he won't be ready for at least 2-3 years, dump Webb, sign a miserable veteran QB back-up that Eli is also not threatened by, etc, etc.

This is a Fassel "all in" move.



RE: It is unacceptable  
BigBlueinChicago : 9/12/2018 7:00 pm : link
In comment 14073088 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
for the Giants to have a season that is no longer fun to watch before November is even over.

If they drop this one, with a road game the following week, I think there is a very high chance the season does young.


Must win game.


November?

Twice in the last 5 years the season has been over before October.
Pretty depressing how standards have fallen around here.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/12/2018 7:13 pm : link
"We only lost by 5 in our home opener against one of the best teams in the league that didn't have their best offensive player the entire second half!"

That doesn't even take into consideration the past 6 seasons.

Alright.
You..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 7:46 pm : link
do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?

Quote:
This is a Fassel "all in" move
Arc whether or not  
joeinpa : 9/12/2018 7:47 pm : link
Darnold makes them now is not the point
.  
arcarsenal : 9/12/2018 7:51 pm : link
I'm the one who made the thread. I'm pretty sure I know what my point was....
Yeah but..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 7:58 pm : link
arc, while we are wondering if the season is almost over the Jets fans are on cloud 9. That must be the point.

I'm going to love when the old axiom about a football season being a marathon comes into play.
RE: You..  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 8:01 pm : link
In comment 14073130 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?



Quote:


This is a Fassel "all in" move



That's great. So go do it. Go make the playoffs. Make a run. I can only speak for myself - 8-8 and no playoffs this year and I'm not going to be interested in any excuses. We don't have McAdoo and Reese anymore to blame for everything.

A rookie head coach won the Super Bowl last year with his backup QB. The Rams and Bills both went to the playoffs last year with rookie head coaches. The Jaguars went to the AFCC with Marrone in his first full year as head coach there. Go and do likewise. We're in a division where Carson Wentz is missing significant time, the Cowboys look weak, and the Redskins are the Redskins. Go do it. I'll be the first guy to admit I was wrong, and be happy to do it. If they don't, I imagine a lot of fans (myself included) are going to want to know why we are a year closer to Gettleman's and Eli's retirement with nothing to show for it and no succession plan.
The only true ďmustĒ this week is the Giants need to play better  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 8:02 pm : link
than the team on the other side of the field. Play better than the other team and then move onto week 3. And then do it again.

They may still lose some those games because of a key injury, poor officiating, bad luck or even an act of God, but those things are not in our control.

The elite players need to play better, the average players need to play better and the Ereck Flowers of the world need to play better.

I donít care if the Dallas team sucks or is great. If the Giants play better than them, then we will slowly start climbing out of this hole one game st a time...
If the Giants go 0-2, then the odds are overwhelming  
baadbill : 9/12/2018 8:12 pm : link
that there will be no playoffs. The season may still be fun to watch, esp with so many players... but statistics donít lie... statistics are facts... esp statistics based upon years of data... and the truth is that close to 90% of the time you go 0-2 your season is over.
RE: Pretty depressing how standards have fallen around here.  
BigBlueinChicago : 9/12/2018 8:35 pm : link
In comment 14073113 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
"We only lost by 5 in our home opener against one of the best teams in the league that didn't have their best offensive player the entire second half!"

That doesn't even take into consideration the past 6 seasons.

Alright.


That is the part I don't understand.

The standards have been lowered so much for this team based on the past performance that anything that now resembles not looking terrible is considered progress

Giants since SB46 have lost 34 of their last 46 games (.260 win percentage) against the teams that finished with a winning record spanning the last 6 seasons (4-18 record on the road). To put that number in perspective, the '62 Mets had a .250 winning percentage when they lost 120 games.

Too many times we've seen them play a good team "close" and then after the game say that if they only did A, B, and C they would have won.

If we are still in those days, then let's declare that now and judge accordingly. But if they are not, and the expectation now is that they should be beating good teams because they believe this team is now good enough to win and make the playoffs, then they should not be given any excuses when they don't win, particularly at home.
You canít see the forest thru the statistical trees  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 8:37 pm : link
If the Giants beat the Jags 15-13 and they beat the Cowboys 15-14 to the start the season 2-0, and continue to avg 15 points per game for the entire season, I will bet you a million dollars that we donít make the playoffs.

Yes, going 0-2 has statistically shown teams will not make the playoffs.

However, being able to score 15 points a game already covers it so donít even worry about looking at the standings...
It goes beyond this Sunday for me  
The_Boss : 9/12/2018 8:39 pm : link
Yes, itís one game but it looks like issues still plague this team in 2018 that have been a problem since 2012:
Bad OL play
Inconsistent, if not poor, QB play
Drops
Absence of pass rush
Inability to get off the field on third downs
Negative ST play

The NYG will be the inferior team, on paper, arguably except this week and perhaps the Redskin game right before the bye. Those 2 have to be wins. A split is not acceptable. Then, to be relevant in the 2nd half of the year, they have to steal one of @ Houston, New Orleans, @Carolina, Philadelphia, or @ Atlanta. Get to the bye at 3-5. Anything less and this year is over and a failure.
RE: You..  
chopperhatch : 9/12/2018 8:40 pm : link
In comment 14073130 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?



Quote:


This is a Fassel "all in" move



Also, pretty sure old Jints Central got the origin of the quote wrong. I dont think "all in" was Fassel...it was the 2011 run. Fassel was "pushing my chips to the center of the table."
RE: RE: You..  
chopperhatch : 9/12/2018 8:43 pm : link
In comment 14073143 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14073130 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?



Quote:


This is a Fassel "all in" move





That's great. So go do it. Go make the playoffs. Make a run. I can only speak for myself - 8-8 and no playoffs this year and I'm not going to be interested in any excuses. We don't have McAdoo and Reese anymore to blame for everything.

A rookie head coach won the Super Bowl last year with his backup QB. The Rams and Bills both went to the playoffs last year with rookie head coaches. The Jaguars went to the AFCC with Marrone in his first full year as head coach there. Go and do likewise. We're in a division where Carson Wentz is missing significant time, the Cowboys look weak, and the Redskins are the Redskins. Go do it. I'll be the first guy to admit I was wrong, and be happy to do it. If they don't, I imagine a lot of fans (myself included) are going to want to know why we are a year closer to Gettleman's and Eli's retirement with nothing to show for it and no succession plan.




Mmmmph, maybe check your facts before using them to support your argument.

Incorrect...Pederson was chastised quite a bit for his rookie campaign. Try again?
And you will  
chopperhatch : 9/12/2018 8:44 pm : link
NEVER admit that you were wrong Terps. Its probably the most annoying thing about you.
Well those were valuable corrections to set everybody straight  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 8:46 pm : link
what a chucklehead...
I was wrong about Pederson  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 8:46 pm : link
My mistake. Feel better?
RE: .....  
Boy Cord : 9/12/2018 8:57 pm : link
In comment 14073064 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
To jump off GT's point, if the team isn't competitive right now - with an expensive 30 year old LT, good D players in their prime, some elite skill players in their primes - how does the team become competitive as Eli declines (or continues to decline, depending on your view of his play)?


The answer is to build an NFL-caliber OL. It is absolutely amazing what can happen to an NFL team when their OL can pave the way for a RB and give the QB that little extra sliver of time. Unfortunately, the Giants have demonstrated that they are incapable of building such a line.
RE: RE: You..  
bw in dc : 9/12/2018 8:57 pm : link
In comment 14073180 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
In comment 14073130 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?



Quote:


This is a Fassel "all in" move





Also, pretty sure old Jints Central got the origin of the quote wrong. I dont think "all in" was Fassel...it was the 2011 run. Fassel was "pushing my chips to the center of the table."


Technically, I think you are right. I was thinking of the part when Fassel said "anybody wants in, get in...anybody wants out, get out..." Or something like that...
But here's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 8:59 pm : link
what people keep forgetting:

Quote:
Unfortunately, the Giants have demonstrated that they are incapable of building such a line.


It wasn't the "Giants". It was Reese.
Yeah, but Gettleman threw good money after bad  
jcn56 : 9/12/2018 9:02 pm : link
so far at least. And that's assuming Hernandez pans out.

It could be that there just aren't enough good OL left in the league to protect a slower pocket passer. That's not a shot at Eli, that's looking at OL play around the league and seeing what even a mediocre LT grabbed in the FA market.
What??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 9:07 pm : link
"so far at least"??

You mean 4 preseason games and week one?

I'd like to see the OL against a team that isn't one of the best units in the league before making proclamations.

I know people are gunshy, but using this line of thinking, after spags first two games as DC, he probably should've been fired.
RE: What??  
jcn56 : 9/12/2018 9:12 pm : link
In comment 14073200 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
"so far at least"??

You mean 4 preseason games and week one?

I'd like to see the OL against a team that isn't one of the best units in the league before making proclamations.

I know people are gunshy, but using this line of thinking, after spags first two games as DC, he probably should've been fired.


Yup, that's what so far means.

It means they could certainly turn it around. Or, they could continue to suck like they have so far this year, just like they did last year. Next step is Dallas, if they shit the bed do we then have cause for concern, or should we let it ride the year first?
RE: You canít see the forest thru the statistical trees  
baadbill : 9/12/2018 9:16 pm : link
In comment 14073173 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
If the Giants beat the Jags 15-13 and they beat the Cowboys 15-14 to the start the season 2-0, and continue to avg 15 points per game for the entire season, I will bet you a million dollars that we donít make the playoffs.

Yes, going 0-2 has statistically shown teams will not make the playoffs.

However, being able to score 15 points a game already covers it so donít even worry about looking at the standings...


That makes zero sense. Nobody is saying that 2-0 means the Giants make the playoffs. The only thing being said is that 0-2 means they most certainly won't.
And a lot..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/12/2018 9:23 pm : link
of this statement is projection:

Quote:
It means they could certainly turn it around. Or, they could continue to suck like they have so far this year, just like they did last year


They actually didn't "suck" in the preseason. In two of the games, our OL outplayed the DL.

Flowers and Onameah have been very uneven. Halapio has had a couple decent games and a couple poor ones, and Solder and Hernandez have mostly been solid.

But things get magnified. I've heard that the entire line and Engram blocked like shit Sunday. Solder is even taking abuse and Engram has been said by a few posters that he can't block at all.

"Thus far" is really one game, and like I said it sure would be nice to see how they do against a D that isn't considered one of the best. We should see a marked difference on Sunday.
RE: I was wrong about Pederson  
chopperhatch : 9/12/2018 9:25 pm : link
In comment 14073187 Go Terps said:
Quote:
My mistake. Feel better?


Not really. Because the issues on which you have quadrupled down on is to what I was referring. If we are 4-1 with Philly coming to town you will still beat the same damn horse.
Zero sence sums it up alright  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 9:36 pm : link
...
Itís refreshing to see folks stick up for our Oline & TE blocking  
Jimmy Googs : 9/12/2018 9:39 pm : link
clueless as hell but refreshing

Defenders of the faith...
I hate posts like this....  
weaverpsu : 9/12/2018 9:52 pm : link
We went 0-2, let up the most points in the first 2 weeks and went on to win the Super Bowl. So...no. It is not a must win. We will however win this game. And I typically like your posts but not this one :)
The issues I have been quadrupling down on are the reason we've sucked  
Go Terps : 9/12/2018 10:15 pm : link
If you want to keep to your limp standard where scoring 15 points in a loss at home is a good showing, that's your business. I'm not going to join you and the others that have been swallowing this shit and rationalizing it to boot.
Sooo...  
exiled : 9/12/2018 10:43 pm : link
A lot of you guys have given up on the season already.

Snowflakes
RE: I hate posts like this....  
Boy Cord : 9/12/2018 11:14 pm : link
In comment 14073237 weaverpsu said:
Quote:
We went 0-2, let up the most points in the first 2 weeks and went on to win the Super Bowl. So...no. It is not a must win. We will however win this game. And I typically like your posts but not this one :)


How often does that happen? How many teams have started 0-3 and made the playoffs? How about 0-4? Giants still not mathematically eliminated at 0-4. What depths do the Giants have to reach for you to call it a must win?

If the Giants want to make the playoffs they better right this ship and win this weekend. It doesnít mean they are a playoff caliber team today. But, they can improve during the season and play at that level come playoff time.

In the interim, they have to win as many games as possible now to keep their hopes alive. Wouldnít it be a shame if the Giants were firing on all cylinders in late December but missed the playoffs because they lost too many games in September?
RE: The issues I have been quadrupling down on are the reason we've sucked  
chopperhatch : 9/13/2018 12:24 am : link
In comment 14073255 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If you want to keep to your limp standard where scoring 15 points in a loss at home is a good showing, that's your business. I'm not going to join you and the others that have been swallowing this shit and rationalizing it to boot.


Yea, thats the standard Im setting....way yo put words in my mouth Terps. This is exactly why I think youre an asshole. You will morph a selection of words from another poster and present that as their thesis on the matter. You post like a politician...whatever you can grasp at to suit your pessimistic, monotonous and boring agenda, you will. Ugh.
Now cue the  
chopperhatch : 9/13/2018 12:26 am : link
"Who? Me?" post in response.
RE: Rob  
Kev in Cali : 9/13/2018 2:05 am : link
In comment 14073074 Go Terps said:
Quote:


3. Paying Beckham (or any other WR) doesn't make sense to me when the OL can't block and the QB is 37, immobile, and quite possibly shell shocked after years of abuse. We aren't going to get the return on the investment if we can't get him the ball in the best possible situations for him to succeed. We just saw clear examples of that Sunday. Since we drafted Beckham in 2014 our offense has averaged 21 PPG. It's a question of roster construction - his position is heavily reliant on the rest of the offense functioning properly.


This is one of the most thought out and sensible comments I've read here in a long while.

Eli will retire here. The offense has weapons. The true potential of this offense may actually be bottle necked through Eli.
0-15  
micky : 9/13/2018 6:24 am : link
Is week 17 a "must win" then?

😂🤣😂😁
RE: And a lot..  
jcn56 : 9/13/2018 7:37 am : link
In comment 14073209 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
of this statement is projection:



Quote:


It means they could certainly turn it around. Or, they could continue to suck like they have so far this year, just like they did last year



They actually didn't "suck" in the preseason. In two of the games, our OL outplayed the DL.

Flowers and Onameah have been very uneven. Halapio has had a couple decent games and a couple poor ones, and Solder and Hernandez have mostly been solid.

But things get magnified. I've heard that the entire line and Engram blocked like shit Sunday. Solder is even taking abuse and Engram has been said by a few posters that he can't block at all.

"Thus far" is really one game, and like I said it sure would be nice to see how they do against a D that isn't considered one of the best. We should see a marked difference on Sunday.


Of course it's projection - it's a thread about the prospects for the future if we lose this game, we're talking about the future here.

But since when history doesn't repeat itself it usually rhymes, the inconsistent blocking in the preseason is a problem (save for a game against Detroit, who looks like they stink on ice). Couple that with a first game where the highly touted replacement parts looked almost as bad as the guys we had (IIRC, PFF had Solder and Omameh as our worst graded players of the day), and things already don't look great.

They should look much better against Dallas - but if they don't, it doesn't take a lot of math to plot out a downward course for the rest of the year.
RE: RE: You..  
bigbluescot : 9/13/2018 7:43 am : link
In comment 14073143 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14073130 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?



Quote:


This is a Fassel "all in" move





That's great. So go do it. Go make the playoffs. Make a run. I can only speak for myself - 8-8 and no playoffs this year and I'm not going to be interested in any excuses. We don't have McAdoo and Reese anymore to blame for everything.

A rookie head coach won the Super Bowl last year with his backup QB. The Rams and Bills both went to the playoffs last year with rookie head coaches. The Jaguars went to the AFCC with Marrone in his first full year as head coach there. Go and do likewise. We're in a division where Carson Wentz is missing significant time, the Cowboys look weak, and the Redskins are the Redskins. Go do it. I'll be the first guy to admit I was wrong, and be happy to do it. If they don't, I imagine a lot of fans (myself included) are going to want to know why we are a year closer to Gettleman's and Eli's retirement with nothing to show for it and no succession plan.


Last year was Pederson's second year with the Eagles. He's been head coach there since 2016. He went 7-9 in his rookie season.
The second game of a 16-game season is  
Mr. Bungle : 9/13/2018 8:47 am : link
never, ever, ever a must-win.
Agree. Maybe fans will settle down if we look at it more as  
Jimmy Googs : 9/13/2018 8:54 am : link
only the second game in a new 3-year rebuild...
Its a must win game for me  
dep026 : 9/13/2018 8:56 am : link
with a win, we are 1-1. With a division/NFC win. And our season continues to hopefully a playoff spot.

With a loss, we are 0-2, season is essentially over because we play much better teams as the year goes on. With a loss, watching interest becomes less and less and Sundays dont seem as exciting anymore.

Must?  
Thegratefulhead : 9/13/2018 9:34 am : link
If we want a reasonable chance of playing meaningful games later in the year we MUST win games against beatable division opponents. We won a SB after being 0-2, but this is NOT that team and the circumstances are NOT the same. We need to beat Dallas, actually I believe we need to thump them. When was the last time we truly thumped anyone, I can't remember without looking. Been too long.
I am in the minority, but I was actually encouraged last week  
PatersonPlank : 9/13/2018 9:44 am : link
and am looking forward to Sunday. I think we have a great chance to win. If we win, after playing tough against the team that should have been in the SB last season, I think this season looks very different
RE: The second game of a 16-game season is  
arcarsenal : 9/13/2018 10:08 am : link
In comment 14073445 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
never, ever, ever a must-win.


It is if you've watched the Giants at all in the last 5 years.
I'm still hopeful  
LG in NYC : 9/13/2018 12:08 pm : link
mostly b/c of Shurmer and Barkley, and my hope that the team /O Line will gel over time while staying in the hunt.

but if we find ourselves out of it by week 8-10, it is going to get very interesting around here - particularly as it relates to debates around Eli.
Yeah, with their first half schedule  
jeff57 : 9/13/2018 12:20 pm : link
it pretty much is.
RE: I'm still hopeful  
Thegratefulhead : 9/13/2018 2:48 pm : link
In comment 14073778 LG in NYC said:
Quote:
mostly b/c of Shurmer and Barkley, and my hope that the team /O Line will gel over time while staying in the hunt.

but if we find ourselves out of it by week 8-10, it is going to get very interesting around here - particularly as it relates to debates around Eli.
If we are out of it by week 8-10, the decision to stick with Eli will have been wrong, subjective reasons, even if valid, will not matter.Only reason to stay with Eli was the argument that he gives us the best chance to win, right now. If we are not competitive this year that all goes out the window.
RE: RE: Rob  
RobCarpenter : 9/13/2018 3:18 pm : link
In comment 14073378 Kev in Cali said:
Quote:
In comment 14073074 Go Terps said:


Quote:




3. Paying Beckham (or any other WR) doesn't make sense to me when the OL can't block and the QB is 37, immobile, and quite possibly shell shocked after years of abuse. We aren't going to get the return on the investment if we can't get him the ball in the best possible situations for him to succeed. We just saw clear examples of that Sunday. Since we drafted Beckham in 2014 our offense has averaged 21 PPG. It's a question of roster construction - his position is heavily reliant on the rest of the offense functioning properly.



This is one of the most thought out and sensible comments I've read here in a long while.

Eli will retire here. The offense has weapons. The true potential of this offense may actually be bottle necked through Eli.


To me it's less about Eli's age than about how he performs. Perhaps the Maras are too sentimental here, and maybe I'm being naive, but if Shurmur believed that the offense couldn't perform with Eli the Giants would have a different QB. The roster has been totally overhauled from last season. If he didn't like Eli, he wouldn't be here. I trust Shurmur's judgment.

What I really don't understand from those who wanted to trade Eli and OBJ is what they would have expected from this season. A Giants team without OBJ would be horrible on O. Is the assumption that Darnold would be the QB? Who would be the WR? Or would this have simply been a terrible season with draft capital built up for next year?

As to the anemic performance since 2014 under McAdoo (either as OC or head coach)-- I think that's due to crappy coaching from him, crappy drafting for the OL by Reese, and no stud RB. I'm not ready to say this O can't score points based on one game vs. one of the top Ds in the league.
Rob  
Go Terps : 9/13/2018 4:02 pm : link
We've had Eli and Beckham for the last four years, and the results have been poor. I don't understand the hesitation to try something else.

For years something has been amiss with this team. We can all agree on that. All options should be considered - but I'm not sure the front office agrees.
RE: RE: The second game of a 16-game season is  
Mr. Bungle : 9/14/2018 11:15 am : link
In comment 14073603 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14073445 Mr. Bungle said:


Quote:


never, ever, ever a must-win.



It is if you've watched the Giants at all in the last 5 years.

But here's the thing. If you're saying that 0-2 is a huge hole because the following games don't look winnable, that pretty much means that the Giants will stink whether they win or lose in week 2.

In today's NFL, what happened last week barely matters for the current week. And what happens in the current week will barely matter for the next week.

I believe that "must-win" means one thing and one thing only -- if you lose, you're eliminated. So you "must" win that game. There's no other option.

No team wants to start 0-2. But it's far from a death sentence.
RE: RE: RE: The second game of a 16-game season is  
baadbill : 9/14/2018 7:25 pm : link
In comment 14074768 :
Quote:
Mr. Bungle said:
... No team wants to start 0-2. But it's far from a death sentence.


That is, simply, factually incorrect. As a matter of statistical fact, only 12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs. Or, put another way, if a team starts 0-2 10 years in a row, it will make the playoffs only one time.


OMG, got it. We are briefed. 0-2 mean no playoffs  
Jimmy Googs : 9/14/2018 7:42 pm : link
How about we focus on what it takes to actually build a better team and not worry about being 0-2, 1-1 or 2-0.

Until you start seeing an Offense score more than 15 points per game, there is not a stat that is any more important...
RE: RE: RE: RE: The second game of a 16-game season is  
Mr. Bungle : 9/14/2018 8:11 pm : link
In comment 14075266 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 14074768 :


Quote:


Mr. Bungle said:
... No team wants to start 0-2. But it's far from a death sentence.



That is, simply, factually incorrect. As a matter of statistical fact, only 12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs. Or, put another way, if a team starts 0-2 10 years in a row, it will make the playoffs only one time.


What's, simply, factually correct is that the majority of teams that start 0-2 and miss the playoffs are just bad teams. They didn't miss the playoffs because they started 0-2. They missed the playoffs because they kept losing after that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The second game of a 16-game season is  
baadbill : 9/14/2018 8:14 pm : link
In comment 14075300 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 14075266 baadbill said:


Quote:


In comment 14074768 :


Quote:


Mr. Bungle said:
... No team wants to start 0-2. But it's far from a death sentence.



That is, simply, factually incorrect. As a matter of statistical fact, only 12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs. Or, put another way, if a team starts 0-2 10 years in a row, it will make the playoffs only one time.




What's, simply, factually correct is that the majority of teams that start 0-2 and miss the playoffs are just bad teams. They didn't miss the playoffs because they started 0-2. They missed the playoffs because they kept losing after that.


We're talking data that spans decades. We're talking every kind of team. Good teams with slow starts. Bad teams. Etc.

Bottom line is this: It is a statistical fact that once a team starts 0-2, 9 teams out of 10 that start 0-2 do not make the playoffs.
Here's an article about the importance of avoiding 0-2  
baadbill : 9/14/2018 8:30 pm : link
(note it was written after the 2014 season and before the 2015 season)
Link - ( New Window )
So to be clear, what you're saying is the Giants  
Jimmy Googs : 9/15/2018 9:27 am : link
don't want to go 0-2 to start the season?
.  
arcarsenal : 9/17/2018 12:26 pm : link
Welp. Got my answer last night - the one I was really hoping not to get.

The Giants are still really, really bad and we're about to sit through yet another lost season.
RE: .  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/17/2018 1:05 pm : link
In comment 14081188 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Welp. Got my answer last night - the one I was really hoping not to get.

The Giants are still really, really bad and we're about to sit through yet another lost season.


Arc, another season all but over by the end of September. I'm getting really tired of this crap.
Back to the Corner