I know - it's the 2nd game. It's Shurmur's 2nd game. Bettcher's 2nd game. Barkley's 2nd game. How can it be a "must win" ?
It is if we want to compete at all this year or be in the mix.
As it is, only ~12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs, so the odds would obviously already be pretty heavily against us should we lose.
Dallas is not a good team this year. Dak Prescott isn't good. Their OL is a bit banged up and played poorly against CAR. There are very few weapons outside of Elliott. Their defense will probably be okay this year - not great.
There's really no excuse here. We need to score more than 15 points. We need to connect when plays are there to be made. We need to limit the mistakes.
If we can't win this game, this team isn't going anywhere anyway. But I 100% believe if we lose this game, the season will just spiral out of control and we'll be out of the mix by Halloween.
If the Giants want this season to mean something, they need to go into Dallas and make that evident. No excuses. No bullshit. Have to win.
What if we don’t though? What if we are looking at 1-7 at the bye? Look at the upcoming schedule. Then what?
Let me tell you something, that'll be a blessing in disguise for this organization. At that point, you quasi-tank the rest of the season and prepare for 2019 and beyond. This is a great draft coming up for D and Olinemen. And there is some depth at corner.
Jettison Eli and begin the hunt for a new QB solution.
Granted, it's a year late...
I might have some faith in that if it hadn't been five years since they could even pretend to be competitive.
To me, a "must win" is late in the season and basically is needed to win in order for a team to mathematically stay alive with reasonable "control of their own destiny". I know the 12% stat, but this is a special situation where we have an entirely new regime AND their first game was against a top 5-10 team. After Sunday we can't be more than 2 games out of first place, period.
I think a better term would be this is a "must play well" game. If we play well and fight until the end, but we don't get the bounces or Dallas happens to play much better than they're expected to play, and we lose, I would say we shouldn't completely freak out or lose hope altogether. "Must win" usually implies to me that we MUST win otherwise we might as well give up on the season, which I won't be ready to do regardless. That said, it's a very important game and the Giants need to start to gel and play good football sooner rather than later.
We started 0-2 and won the Super Bowl in '07.
Using the logic many are making about not selecting a QB, then Philly was technically rebuilding by selecting Wentz.
Yet, they won a SB and had the roster composition of being able to still field a team with dominant lines.
Going a different direction doesn't change the "win now" ridiculous narrative. It is just a different philosophy on team building.
FatMan,
Philly was a championship-caliber team regardless of Wentz last year (as proven by the fact they won the SB WITHOUT Wentz). I don't think the Giants are Super Bowl caliber team with any of the rookie QBs this year, and are only Super Bowl caliber if it turns out Eli Can return to his 2011 or 2014-2015 form.
Utterly, completely different team. A lot of talent on that roster, a very good OL, had won the division in 2005 and made a wild card in 2006. A young QB with potential instead of a geezer who looks to be on the downslope.
No comparison.
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on every team to win.
Using the logic many are making about not selecting a QB, then Philly was technically rebuilding by selecting Wentz.
Yet, they won a SB and had the roster composition of being able to still field a team with dominant lines.
Going a different direction doesn't change the "win now" ridiculous narrative. It is just a different philosophy on team building.
FatMan,
Philly was a championship-caliber team regardless of Wentz last year (as proven by the fact they won the SB WITHOUT Wentz). I don't think the Giants are Super Bowl caliber team with any of the rookie QBs this year, and are only Super Bowl caliber if it turns out Eli Can return to his 2011 or 2014-2015 form.
Also, I don't think they would be Super Bowl caliber without Barkley on the team. They needed a few things to be SB-caliber:
1. Barkley
2. Eli returns to old Eli
3. Beckham hasn't lost a step
4. O-Line is much improved and at least serviceable
5. Defense returns to 2016-form or close to it
Philly, meanwhile, was Super Bowl caliber even without Wentz playing.
Unless they are 0-16, I can't imagine a scenario where Gettleman and Shurmur get fired after 1 season.
Several of you seemingly think they will be bad and that the 0-1 start alone is indication of it, despite them competing very well against Jax.
Like I said earlier - if they beat Dallas, I fully expect them to be at least 2-2 after 4 games as they get the Saints at home in 2 weeks.
One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.
I'm curious what you think the Giants should have done differently this offseason. Traded Eli and taken Darnold? How does that fix the OL, and who is the RB?
Less than half of last year's roster is still on the team. That seems like a fairly large revamping to me.
These are the returning players from last year:
1. Eli Apple
2. Odell Beckham
3. Landon Collins
4. Donte Deayon
5. Zak DeOssie
6. Rhett Ellison
7. Evan Engram
8. Ereck Flowers
9. Wayne Gallman
10. B.J. Goodson
11. John Greco
12. Jon Halapio
13. Damon Harrison
14. Janoris Jenkins
15. Eli Manning
16. Aldrick Rosas
17. Sterling Shepard
18. Shane Smith
19. Dalvin Tomlinson
20. Olivier Vernon
21. Chad Wheeler
22. Jordan Williams
23. Kerry Wynn
Several of you seemingly think they will be bad and that the 0-1 start alone is indication of it, despite them competing very well against Jax.
Like I said earlier - if they beat Dallas, I fully expect them to be at least 2-2 after 4 games as they get the Saints at home in 2 weeks.
Forgive me for being beaten down by this:
2013, 0-6 start
2014, 3-9 start
2015, 1-6 finish
2017, 3-13
Awful, awful football. Week 1 was a lot of the same. Dominated at the LOS, missed throws, drops, etc.
I can't help it if you're beat down. I also can't help if people think this is the same football team.
You can't fire Gettleman after one year even if the team goes 3-13 again (which it might given the brutal schedule). You have to give him a chance to rebuild and one year isn't a fair chance.
Two years of 3-13 under DG would be another matter.
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They could always turn around and win the next 14.
One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.
What if we don’t though? What if we are looking at 1-7 at the bye? Look at the upcoming schedule. Then what?
Ownership has backed itself in a corner if this team doesn’t win. I’m horrified Gettleman will overreach for a QB next year under this scenario where Darnold checked off all boxes for NYG franchise QB, perfect transition from Eli. I think this is a really troubling proposition.
Why are you presuming we need/will go with a QB next year if we start this year 1-7? Suggests that Eli was the driver behind some hypothetical poor start and that a change to a younger more mobile rookie would make a difference...seems like a stretch.
One thing I do know is what my expectations are - I expect to compete at minimum for the division this year. I expect to be in the playoffs. We passed on opportunities to build for the future so we can compete now. So compete.
We got Barkley...he isn't helping our future?
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What if we don’t though? What if we are looking at 1-7 at the bye? Look at the upcoming schedule. Then what?
Let me tell you something, that'll be a blessing in disguise for this organization. At that point, you quasi-tank the rest of the season and prepare for 2019 and beyond. This is a great draft coming up for D and Olinemen. And there is some depth at corner.
Jettison Eli and begin the hunt for a new QB solution.
Granted, it's a year late...
Again with this view that "a new QB is the solution". Did Eli do something wrong, or not enough, in game 1?
carolina got up and basically sat on the ball the entire 2nd half
For starters, I wouldn't have considered hiring Gettleman to be the GM. It's nothing against Gettleman, who I think is quite competent. It's about him having a history with the Giants and being 67 years old. We're going to be replacing him relatively soon, and probably with Kevin Abrams. Abrams is also competent, but he has been part of the problem just like everyone in the building has been these past five years.
On the roster, I would have released or traded Eli. I would have traded Beckham. That has nothing to do with my feelings about him personally - I just wouldn't prioritize paying a WR in the Giants' situation. Ditto drafting Barkley. I think he looks like a wonderful player and a great kid...it doesn't change the fact that there's a pretty high chance he's not even on this team in 5 years. That's just the nature of the position he plays.
Basically, I think the Giants approached this offseason aiming to win with Eli. Given his age, that means winning now. That's not what I would have done. But here we are. They went for it, so they've got to go win now.
This team is literally trying to figure out how to block guys without sticking their legs out, catch balls that hit them in their hands and score more than 1 TD per game.
wake up folks...
I don't think anyone expects a SB this year... it's only how long will the team be relevant in the run for a playoff spot... and if they go 0-2 those odds become prohibitively against. I suppose your point is that you believe those odds to be prohibitively against before the first game was even played ... and that may be true ... but the odds were probably better than the 88% against they would be once they went 0-2
I think this thread is far too ahead of itself on nonsensical crap, hence my post.
The concept of worrying about the odds we make the playoffs after an 0-2 start is meaningless. When you start seeing things like better blocking, securing more catches moving the chains and scoring more than 1 TD per game, the playoff odds will take care of themselves...not the other way around.
Let me tell you something, that'll be a blessing in disguise for this organization. At that point, you quasi-tank the rest of the season and prepare for 2019 and beyond. This is a great draft coming up for D and Olinemen. And there is some depth at corner.
Jettison Eli and begin the hunt for a new QB solution.
Granted, it's a year late...
Again with this view that "a new QB is the solution". Did Eli do something wrong, or not enough, in game 1?
He wasn't great, wasn't hideous - basically okay. There is room to debate that he may have cost us the game by missing OBJ on a sure TD. But that's already been dissected to death earlier this week.
My thesis on getting rid of Eli - for 2019 - is based on this year going sideways early. That's all. I was piggy backing off a comment someone made about a 1-7 start considering our schedule. Again, if that does happen, then I believe you have to look to the future much quicker and start fresh with new blood at QB.
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This team is literally trying to figure out how to block guys without sticking their legs out, catch balls that hit them in their hands and score more than 1 TD per game.
wake up folks...
I don't think anyone expects a SB this year... it's only how long will the team be relevant in the run for a playoff spot... and if they go 0-2 those odds become prohibitively against. I suppose your point is that you believe those odds to be prohibitively against before the first game was even played ... and that may be true ... but the odds were probably better than the 88% against they would be once they went 0-2
I think this thread is far too ahead of itself on nonsensical crap, hence my post.
The concept of worrying about the odds we make the playoffs after an 0-2 start is meaningless. When you start seeing things like better blocking, securing more catches moving the chains and scoring more than 1 TD per game, the playoff odds will take care of themselves...not the other way around.
You, of course, are free to think what you like. Statistics are, however, fact based. They are reality. Whatever chances any team has to make the playoffs become statistically remote once they go 0-2. Things don't just "take care of themselves". Things follow the long established statistics.
Basically, I think the Giants approached this offseason aiming to win with Eli. Given his age, that means winning now. That's not what I would have done. But here we are. They went for it, so they've got to go win now.
The giants did what any reasonable team would do under the cap - they are trying to build around the parts they have with a focus on strength for the future.
We know you want the model of having a cheap QB. But under your scenario, the Giants would lose Eli, Beckham and not draft Barkley. That's not any way to build a roster either. You can't hit on draft picks and then trade them for uncertainty.
I don't se how people can see the plethora of moves made last year and think it wasn't enough - if they have any understanding of the salary cap. Doing anything else would leave a ton of dead money and a roster more suited to compete in Division I-AA
I don't see what has been done (starting with the Gettleman hire) as having an eye toward the future. I see it as trying to win now at the expense of the future. There are absolutely realistic scenarios where we have a new GM, HC, and QB 3 years from now.
They're trying to win now. That's fine - if they pull off another title with Eli no one will be happier than I will be. But I expect them to go do it.
We've been watching shit football for 5 years. Last year was an embarrassment and they quit like dogs. We just spent the offseason doubling down on what's been a terrible offensive team, and the offense was again terrible to start this year.
We're supposed to be encouraged because we lost our season opener at home by only 5 points? Unbelievable.
You, of course, are free to think what you like. Statistics are, however, fact based. They are reality. Whatever chances any team has to make the playoffs become statistically remote once they go 0-2. Things don't just "take care of themselves". Things follow the long established statistics.
Go run the statistics of teams that make the playoffs that average 15 points a game because they can't block and drop too many passes.
We've been watching shit football for 5 years. Last year was an embarrassment and they quit like dogs. We just spent the offseason doubling down on what's been a terrible offensive team, and the offense was again terrible to start this year.
We're supposed to be encouraged because we lost our season opener at home by only 5 points? Unbelievable.
Because like the majority of the fan base here have said, I too thought they looked pretty damned solid against an awfully good football team. No, the O line isnt super tight right now, probably wont be for several weeks if at all this year, but it is LIGHT years better than it was last year.
A couple of dropped balls get caught, and we probably win that game.
Im not miserable because thats your role. Just as I said, Beckham cpuld have a terrific game and you would still not give him credit. Like I said before, your act and song are tired, yet you keep on presenting it like people here give a shit what you think Terps. Why do you even post? You haven't presented a new thought in at least 3 years.
I hear you. Go read my question again above...its in there.
While we Giants fans are wondering if it s the same old, same old, the Jets fans are on cloud 9 because if said quarterback.
It s a crummy start to the season. I m angry and disgusted. I m with Terps, how can you not be pissed.
The game didn't feel as close as the score indicated.
It's one game in a new system against a great D. But the onus is on the team to demonstrate they are a good football team - I think assuming this is a good team working out the kinks is misguided given the precedent over the past five years. Weeks three to seven look very tough. Not beating a mediocre Cowboys team makes me think getting to .500 at the bye would be very unlikely.
But if they lose in Dallas, they are not going on a big winning streak.
To me, the performance of the offense last week was very disappointing. They scored only 15 points and gave 7 points back with a Pick 6. So really that is a net 8 points.
Eli did not play well, the OL was still a problem, and Engram played the worst game of any TE in Giants history. Missed 4-5 catches and his blocking made Ereck Flowers look like Jackie Slater. He was truly utter trash.
So, to me, this offense has to have a big game against Dallas and come away with a victory.
Hasn't been the case for a few years now, and unfortunately it doesn't seem like the case this year either. If they truly were looking for an upward swing to carry them into 19 then the ownership of this team is more lost than I thought.
For starters, I wouldn't have considered hiring Gettleman to be the GM. It's nothing against Gettleman, who I think is quite competent. It's about him having a history with the Giants and being 67 years old. We're going to be replacing him relatively soon, and probably with Kevin Abrams. Abrams is also competent, but he has been part of the problem just like everyone in the building has been these past five years.
On the roster, I would have released or traded Eli. I would have traded Beckham. That has nothing to do with my feelings about him personally - I just wouldn't prioritize paying a WR in the Giants' situation. Ditto drafting Barkley. I think he looks like a wonderful player and a great kid...it doesn't change the fact that there's a pretty high chance he's not even on this team in 5 years. That's just the nature of the position he plays.
Basically, I think the Giants approached this offseason aiming to win with Eli. Given his age, that means winning now. That's not what I would have done. But here we are. They went for it, so they've got to go win now.
1. Gettleman's age shouldn't be an issue. If you don't like that he had worked for the Giants previously, that's one thing, but his age shouldn't be it.
2. The Maras would never trade Eli.
3. Trading OBJ doesn't make sense to me. He's one of the top 3 WRs in the NFL. He's not someone you can replace.
2. I agree - the Maras wouldn't trade/release Eli. I think they still carry the scars of what happened with Simms. I sympathize, and my love for Eli is eternal, but that is no way to run a team. It is a MASSIVE blind spot.
3. Paying Beckham (or any other WR) doesn't make sense to me when the OL can't block and the QB is 37, immobile, and quite possibly shell shocked after years of abuse. We aren't going to get the return on the investment if we can't get him the ball in the best possible situations for him to succeed. We just saw clear examples of that Sunday. Since we drafted Beckham in 2014 our offense has averaged 21 PPG. It's a question of roster construction - his position is heavily reliant on the rest of the offense functioning properly.
This wasn't really a game where I watched it and said "yeah, we made the wrong call on the QB issue" because I don't think Darnold would have changed the outcome.
In order for that to happen, you have to take Barkley's long TD off the board and then assume that Gallman, etc. would have been able to give us the same ground production AND if not, Darnold would need to outperform Eli against the same defense by a fair margin - and Eli really wasn't bad.
Remember - Davis Webb looked pretty good against a lot of the Lions' defensive starters. I'm going to go ahead and guess that they will have one of the worst defenses in football this year. They are really bad. They have a top flight corner in Darius Slay and very little otherwise. Ziggy Ansah is a good player but he does miss some games.
Have to be careful about drawing too many conclusions based on Week 1. It's just a tendency everyone has because they've been waiting so long for games that count. But a lot of wonky things can happen in week 1.
All of that said - I truly believe the outcome of this Dallas game will determine where the team goes. We can get caught up in semantics if we want or argue about what "must win" really means - but I am of the belief that if we win, we'll hang in there and compete for a good chunk of the year. If not - I think things could start getting ugly very fast. The groans won't take long to return if we can't do better than 15 points with the weapons we have now.
If they lose, I don't want to consider would've, could've, should've.
If they drop this one, with a road game the following week, I think there is a very high chance the season does young.
Must win game.
If they truly were looking for an upward swing to carry them into 19 then the ownership of this team is more lost than I thought.
You're kidding, right?
That "upward swing" was declared loud and clear when Mara had his nervous breakdown over Eli Gate. He got exactly what he wanted to hear from Accoris's hires, Gettleman and Shurmur: Eli still has the goods to lead this team where they want to go.
So the plan is hatched - what can we do to make Eli better to get there? Get a RB to take the pressure off Eli, build a better oline to take the pressure off Eli, smooth things over with OBJ to take pressure off Eli, don't draft a highly rated franchise QB to take pressure of Eli, etc.
Then that plan is implemented: go hard for Norwell but miss; go hard and over-pay for Solder; sign Omameh; trade for veteran LB; use #2 pick at RB (the position easiest to play right away in the NFL) avoid QB controversy by not drafting Darnold/Rosen/Allen; re-negotiate a deal for OBJ, draft the Lauletta project knowing he won't be ready for at least 2-3 years, dump Webb, sign a miserable veteran QB back-up that Eli is also not threatened by, etc, etc.
This is a Fassel "all in" move.
If they drop this one, with a road game the following week, I think there is a very high chance the season does young.
Must win game.
November?
Twice in the last 5 years the season has been over before October.
That doesn't even take into consideration the past 6 seasons.
Alright.