I know - it's the 2nd game. It's Shurmur's 2nd game. Bettcher's 2nd game. Barkley's 2nd game. How can it be a "must win" ?
It is if we want to compete at all this year or be in the mix.
As it is, only ~12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs, so the odds would obviously already be pretty heavily against us should we lose.
Dallas is not a good team this year. Dak Prescott isn't good. Their OL is a bit banged up and played poorly against CAR. There are very few weapons outside of Elliott. Their defense will probably be okay this year - not great.
There's really no excuse here. We need to score more than 15 points. We need to connect when plays are there to be made. We need to limit the mistakes.
If we can't win this game, this team isn't going anywhere anyway. But I 100% believe if we lose this game, the season will just spiral out of control and we'll be out of the mix by Halloween.
If the Giants want this season to mean something, they need to go into Dallas and make that evident. No excuses. No bullshit. Have to win.
I'm going to love when the old axiom about a football season being a marathon comes into play.
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This is a Fassel "all in" move
That's great. So go do it. Go make the playoffs. Make a run. I can only speak for myself - 8-8 and no playoffs this year and I'm not going to be interested in any excuses. We don't have McAdoo and Reese anymore to blame for everything.
A rookie head coach won the Super Bowl last year with his backup QB. The Rams and Bills both went to the playoffs last year with rookie head coaches. The Jaguars went to the AFCC with Marrone in his first full year as head coach there. Go and do likewise. We're in a division where Carson Wentz is missing significant time, the Cowboys look weak, and the Redskins are the Redskins. Go do it. I'll be the first guy to admit I was wrong, and be happy to do it. If they don't, I imagine a lot of fans (myself included) are going to want to know why we are a year closer to Gettleman's and Eli's retirement with nothing to show for it and no succession plan.
They may still lose some those games because of a key injury, poor officiating, bad luck or even an act of God, but those things are not in our control.
The elite players need to play better, the average players need to play better and the Ereck Flowers of the world need to play better.
I dont care if the Dallas team sucks or is great. If the Giants play better than them, then we will slowly start climbing out of this hole one game st a time...
That doesn't even take into consideration the past 6 seasons.
Alright.
That is the part I don't understand.
The standards have been lowered so much for this team based on the past performance that anything that now resembles not looking terrible is considered progress
Giants since SB46 have lost 34 of their last 46 games (.260 win percentage) against the teams that finished with a winning record spanning the last 6 seasons (4-18 record on the road). To put that number in perspective, the '62 Mets had a .250 winning percentage when they lost 120 games.
Too many times we've seen them play a good team "close" and then after the game say that if they only did A, B, and C they would have won.
If we are still in those days, then let's declare that now and judge accordingly. But if they are not, and the expectation now is that they should be beating good teams because they believe this team is now good enough to win and make the playoffs, then they should not be given any excuses when they don't win, particularly at home.
Yes, going 0-2 has statistically shown teams will not make the playoffs.
However, being able to score 15 points a game already covers it so dont even worry about looking at the standings...
Bad OL play
Inconsistent, if not poor, QB play
Drops
Absence of pass rush
Inability to get off the field on third downs
Negative ST play
The NYG will be the inferior team, on paper, arguably except this week and perhaps the Redskin game right before the bye. Those 2 have to be wins. A split is not acceptable. Then, to be relevant in the 2nd half of the year, they have to steal one of @ Houston, New Orleans, @Carolina, Philadelphia, or @ Atlanta. Get to the bye at 3-5. Anything less and this year is over and a failure.
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This is a Fassel "all in" move
Also, pretty sure old Jints Central got the origin of the quote wrong. I dont think "all in" was Fassel...it was the 2011 run. Fassel was "pushing my chips to the center of the table."
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do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?
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This is a Fassel "all in" move
That's great. So go do it. Go make the playoffs. Make a run. I can only speak for myself - 8-8 and no playoffs this year and I'm not going to be interested in any excuses. We don't have McAdoo and Reese anymore to blame for everything.
A rookie head coach won the Super Bowl last year with his backup QB. The Rams and Bills both went to the playoffs last year with rookie head coaches. The Jaguars went to the AFCC with Marrone in his first full year as head coach there. Go and do likewise. We're in a division where Carson Wentz is missing significant time, the Cowboys look weak, and the Redskins are the Redskins. Go do it. I'll be the first guy to admit I was wrong, and be happy to do it. If they don't, I imagine a lot of fans (myself included) are going to want to know why we are a year closer to Gettleman's and Eli's retirement with nothing to show for it and no succession plan.
Mmmmph, maybe check your facts before using them to support your argument.
Incorrect...Pederson was chastised quite a bit for his rookie campaign. Try again?
The answer is to build an NFL-caliber OL. It is absolutely amazing what can happen to an NFL team when their OL can pave the way for a RB and give the QB that little extra sliver of time. Unfortunately, the Giants have demonstrated that they are incapable of building such a line.
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do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?
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This is a Fassel "all in" move
Also, pretty sure old Jints Central got the origin of the quote wrong. I dont think "all in" was Fassel...it was the 2011 run. Fassel was "pushing my chips to the center of the table."
Technically, I think you are right. I was thinking of the part when Fassel said "anybody wants in, get in...anybody wants out, get out..." Or something like that...
It wasn't the "Giants". It was Reese.
It could be that there just aren't enough good OL left in the league to protect a slower pocket passer. That's not a shot at Eli, that's looking at OL play around the league and seeing what even a mediocre LT grabbed in the FA market.
You mean 4 preseason games and week one?
I'd like to see the OL against a team that isn't one of the best units in the league before making proclamations.
I know people are gunshy, but using this line of thinking, after spags first two games as DC, he probably should've been fired.
You mean 4 preseason games and week one?
I'd like to see the OL against a team that isn't one of the best units in the league before making proclamations.
I know people are gunshy, but using this line of thinking, after spags first two games as DC, he probably should've been fired.
Yup, that's what so far means.
It means they could certainly turn it around. Or, they could continue to suck like they have so far this year, just like they did last year. Next step is Dallas, if they shit the bed do we then have cause for concern, or should we let it ride the year first?
Yes, going 0-2 has statistically shown teams will not make the playoffs.
However, being able to score 15 points a game already covers it so dont even worry about looking at the standings...
That makes zero sense. Nobody is saying that 2-0 means the Giants make the playoffs. The only thing being said is that 0-2 means they most certainly won't.
They actually didn't "suck" in the preseason. In two of the games, our OL outplayed the DL.
Flowers and Onameah have been very uneven. Halapio has had a couple decent games and a couple poor ones, and Solder and Hernandez have mostly been solid.
But things get magnified. I've heard that the entire line and Engram blocked like shit Sunday. Solder is even taking abuse and Engram has been said by a few posters that he can't block at all.
"Thus far" is really one game, and like I said it sure would be nice to see how they do against a D that isn't considered one of the best. We should see a marked difference on Sunday.
Not really. Because the issues on which you have quadrupled down on is to what I was referring. If we are 4-1 with Philly coming to town you will still beat the same damn horse.
Defenders of the faith...
Snowflakes
How often does that happen? How many teams have started 0-3 and made the playoffs? How about 0-4? Giants still not mathematically eliminated at 0-4. What depths do the Giants have to reach for you to call it a must win?
If the Giants want to make the playoffs they better right this ship and win this weekend. It doesnt mean they are a playoff caliber team today. But, they can improve during the season and play at that level come playoff time.
In the interim, they have to win as many games as possible now to keep their hopes alive. Wouldnt it be a shame if the Giants were firing on all cylinders in late December but missed the playoffs because they lost too many games in September?
Yea, thats the standard Im setting....way yo put words in my mouth Terps. This is exactly why I think youre an asshole. You will morph a selection of words from another poster and present that as their thesis on the matter. You post like a politician...whatever you can grasp at to suit your pessimistic, monotonous and boring agenda, you will. Ugh.
3. Paying Beckham (or any other WR) doesn't make sense to me when the OL can't block and the QB is 37, immobile, and quite possibly shell shocked after years of abuse. We aren't going to get the return on the investment if we can't get him the ball in the best possible situations for him to succeed. We just saw clear examples of that Sunday. Since we drafted Beckham in 2014 our offense has averaged 21 PPG. It's a question of roster construction - his position is heavily reliant on the rest of the offense functioning properly.
This is one of the most thought out and sensible comments I've read here in a long while.
Eli will retire here. The offense has weapons. The true potential of this offense may actually be bottle necked through Eli.
😂🤣😂😁
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It means they could certainly turn it around. Or, they could continue to suck like they have so far this year, just like they did last year
They actually didn't "suck" in the preseason. In two of the games, our OL outplayed the DL.
Flowers and Onameah have been very uneven. Halapio has had a couple decent games and a couple poor ones, and Solder and Hernandez have mostly been solid.
But things get magnified. I've heard that the entire line and Engram blocked like shit Sunday. Solder is even taking abuse and Engram has been said by a few posters that he can't block at all.
"Thus far" is really one game, and like I said it sure would be nice to see how they do against a D that isn't considered one of the best. We should see a marked difference on Sunday.
Of course it's projection - it's a thread about the prospects for the future if we lose this game, we're talking about the future here.
But since when history doesn't repeat itself it usually rhymes, the inconsistent blocking in the preseason is a problem (save for a game against Detroit, who looks like they stink on ice). Couple that with a first game where the highly touted replacement parts looked almost as bad as the guys we had (IIRC, PFF had Solder and Omameh as our worst graded players of the day), and things already don't look great.
They should look much better against Dallas - but if they don't, it doesn't take a lot of math to plot out a downward course for the rest of the year.
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do realize the Fassel "all in" move resulted in a Super Bowl run, right?
Quote:
This is a Fassel "all in" move
That's great. So go do it. Go make the playoffs. Make a run. I can only speak for myself - 8-8 and no playoffs this year and I'm not going to be interested in any excuses. We don't have McAdoo and Reese anymore to blame for everything.
A rookie head coach won the Super Bowl last year with his backup QB. The Rams and Bills both went to the playoffs last year with rookie head coaches. The Jaguars went to the AFCC with Marrone in his first full year as head coach there. Go and do likewise. We're in a division where Carson Wentz is missing significant time, the Cowboys look weak, and the Redskins are the Redskins. Go do it. I'll be the first guy to admit I was wrong, and be happy to do it. If they don't, I imagine a lot of fans (myself included) are going to want to know why we are a year closer to Gettleman's and Eli's retirement with nothing to show for it and no succession plan.
Last year was Pederson's second year with the Eagles. He's been head coach there since 2016. He went 7-9 in his rookie season.
With a loss, we are 0-2, season is essentially over because we play much better teams as the year goes on. With a loss, watching interest becomes less and less and Sundays dont seem as exciting anymore.
It is if you've watched the Giants at all in the last 5 years.
but if we find ourselves out of it by week 8-10, it is going to get very interesting around here - particularly as it relates to debates around Eli.
but if we find ourselves out of it by week 8-10, it is going to get very interesting around here - particularly as it relates to debates around Eli.
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3. Paying Beckham (or any other WR) doesn't make sense to me when the OL can't block and the QB is 37, immobile, and quite possibly shell shocked after years of abuse. We aren't going to get the return on the investment if we can't get him the ball in the best possible situations for him to succeed. We just saw clear examples of that Sunday. Since we drafted Beckham in 2014 our offense has averaged 21 PPG. It's a question of roster construction - his position is heavily reliant on the rest of the offense functioning properly.
This is one of the most thought out and sensible comments I've read here in a long while.
Eli will retire here. The offense has weapons. The true potential of this offense may actually be bottle necked through Eli.
To me it's less about Eli's age than about how he performs. Perhaps the Maras are too sentimental here, and maybe I'm being naive, but if Shurmur believed that the offense couldn't perform with Eli the Giants would have a different QB. The roster has been totally overhauled from last season. If he didn't like Eli, he wouldn't be here. I trust Shurmur's judgment.
What I really don't understand from those who wanted to trade Eli and OBJ is what they would have expected from this season. A Giants team without OBJ would be horrible on O. Is the assumption that Darnold would be the QB? Who would be the WR? Or would this have simply been a terrible season with draft capital built up for next year?
As to the anemic performance since 2014 under McAdoo (either as OC or head coach)-- I think that's due to crappy coaching from him, crappy drafting for the OL by Reese, and no stud RB. I'm not ready to say this O can't score points based on one game vs. one of the top Ds in the league.
For years something has been amiss with this team. We can all agree on that. All options should be considered - but I'm not sure the front office agrees.
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never, ever, ever a must-win.
It is if you've watched the Giants at all in the last 5 years.
But here's the thing. If you're saying that 0-2 is a huge hole because the following games don't look winnable, that pretty much means that the Giants will stink whether they win or lose in week 2.
In today's NFL, what happened last week barely matters for the current week. And what happens in the current week will barely matter for the next week.
I believe that "must-win" means one thing and one thing only -- if you lose, you're eliminated. So you "must" win that game. There's no other option.
No team wants to start 0-2. But it's far from a death sentence.
... No team wants to start 0-2. But it's far from a death sentence.
That is, simply, factually incorrect. As a matter of statistical fact, only 12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs. Or, put another way, if a team starts 0-2 10 years in a row, it will make the playoffs only one time.
Until you start seeing an Offense score more than 15 points per game, there is not a stat that is any more important...
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Mr. Bungle said:
... No team wants to start 0-2. But it's far from a death sentence.
That is, simply, factually incorrect. As a matter of statistical fact, only 12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs. Or, put another way, if a team starts 0-2 10 years in a row, it will make the playoffs only one time.
What's, simply, factually correct is that the majority of teams that start 0-2 and miss the playoffs are just bad teams. They didn't miss the playoffs because they started 0-2. They missed the playoffs because they kept losing after that.
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In comment 14074768 :
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Mr. Bungle said:
... No team wants to start 0-2. But it's far from a death sentence.
That is, simply, factually incorrect. As a matter of statistical fact, only 12% of teams that start 0-2 make the playoffs. Or, put another way, if a team starts 0-2 10 years in a row, it will make the playoffs only one time.
What's, simply, factually correct is that the majority of teams that start 0-2 and miss the playoffs are just bad teams. They didn't miss the playoffs because they started 0-2. They missed the playoffs because they kept losing after that.
We're talking data that spans decades. We're talking every kind of team. Good teams with slow starts. Bad teams. Etc.
Bottom line is this: It is a statistical fact that once a team starts 0-2, 9 teams out of 10 that start 0-2 do not make the playoffs.
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