at least according to the Detroit Free Press...I know it's early but remember the gnashing of teeth here when it was reported he would NOT be he Giants new HC?
"What happened Monday night at Ford Field wasn’t as embarrassing as it was revealing: Matt Patricia is in over his head.
Maybe that changes as the season moves forward. Maybe it doesn’t."
"The Lions looked confused, unprepared and, at times, disconnected from their coach, who spent most of the night on the sidelines by himself. Now, Patricia doesn’t owe his players shoulder rubs and attaboys during a game.
Yet it’s worth noting that the endearing, affectionate coordinator you saw hugging the sidelines in New England got lost on the way to Detroit. His new persona appears stiffer and uncomfortable, and that’s understandable. He’s the man here.
The question is: Is he the right man?"
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I agree with this.
Once they're out on their own - poof!
Exactly, and even given that, Patricia made little sense. He worked under one of the best defensive coaches ever, and his defenses just weren't that good.
One things for sure, Detroit is a dump of a franchise that can’t get anything right. There’s so little talent on that team that it’s laughable.
The Jets defenders said they knew what the Lions were going to run before the snap after the game. Not one guy, multiple players - to the point where people went back to the broadcast and showed the Jets defense adjusting perfectly on most downs.
Not to excuse Stafford, who IMO was grossly overpaid - but if the other team knows what you're doing, you're going to have a bad night.
The Lions have looked like garbage all preseason, which generally doesn't mean much - but to open up to the powerhouse Jets and get demolished at home is not a good sign.
So what about Belichek then. Does the cut off sleeves on the hoodie turn you off?
Patricia should just be himself. That's where the Belichek coaches go wrong. They get to tight and crank like Bill. O"Brian is successful because he is not afraid to be himself.
The more alarming thing, is that he isolated himself. That's not a good look.
Once they're out on their own - poof!
I think his QB has something to do with his success as well. He was a great defensive coordinator but a middling head coach until Mo
Coughlin was also an established coach with a reputation as a strict disciplinarian.
Stafford is Matt Ryan. Great stats. Great for the fantasy crowd over the years. Top tier QB? He’s light years away from Breese Rodges And Brady.
For all the shit Eli gets his bill he was huge for both Super Bowl runs and wins. People confuse stats w results too often these days
new head coaches went 0 - 7 this week.
I agree looking woefully unprepared and losing are different, but let him have a chance.
I think Gruden and his Raiders looked worse or at least close to as bad, and the Raiders had a better team (til Gruden f-ed it up) - of course the Rams are Super Bowl contenders and the Jets aren't, but neither team looked competitive IMO.
But, I can act like Belichick (asshole) and I can implement the “Patriot Way” (like no one ever thought to pay attention to every detail and work hard and “do your job”). What I can’t do, and what most head coaches in the NFL can’t do, is to break down film, identify tendencies and weakness and then game plan and make in game adjustments which create mismatches that exploit these tendencies and weaknesses. Hoodie’s the best football coach there ever has been. Being his d-co or his o-co means you’re smart and you work hard but it doesn’t mean you have the secret recipe which is the mind meld of Hoodie and Earnie Adams and the GOAT at QB to make it all run on the O field.
Same goes for Shurmur. Don't get me wrong - everything he's done so far gives me a positive outlook on him, but give it a few weeks if we don't turn things around it could be curtains for Pat too.
Exactly right, I think he may have gotten concussed because he sure played like it. And remember it's only ONE game!
He inherited a decent team.
Let's skip that idea
Ridiculous to leap to conclusions on Patricia but he certainly didn't have the team ready to play Monday. That's ultimately what matters most.
Exhibit A - one of the most embarrassing losses in Giants history - ( New Window )
Are you surprised?
I'm guessing being Belichick's DC, when Belichick is probably the greatest defensive mastermind there ever was, doesn't have that sort of brand cache.
You cannot just cut and paste all that.
I expect Patricia to do OK once he has some D players. But he probably needs an O guru.
I'm guessing being Belichick's DC, when Belichick is probably the greatest defensive mastermind there ever was, doesn't have that sort of brand cache.
Tom Coughlin won a national championship at the NCAA Level?
I'm not sure why folks would compare these 2 situations - just ridiculous.
Personally, I think he has done very good work in Houston despite all kinds of QB issues. I hold more of that on Rick Smith than BO. And they've been riddled with some heavy injuries over the years.
So I am very interested to see what he whip up if Watson stays healthy for all 16.
But I agree the evidence is pretty clear - there is a Belichick Curse on his assistants. And it's largely because Belichick is the training wheels for all of his coaches. And when they get a chance to take the training wheels off, they can't ride the bike...
Crennel: NFL, 28-55
Mangini: NFL, 33-48
McDaniels: NFL, 11-17
O'Brien: the Lombardi of the Belichick tree. NCAA, 15-9; NFL, 31-34
Crennel: NFL, 28-55
Mangini: NFL, 33-48
McDaniels: NFL, 11-17
O'Brien: the Lombardi of the Belichick tree. NCAA, 15-9; NFL, 31-34
Mangini gets a little better taking out his Cleveland stop. That is the Chernobyl of NFL franchises.
What do you expect with Tom Savage, TJ Yates, Brock Osweiller, Bryan Hoyer, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Ryan Mallet?
I am a buyer of that - yes. He's hitched to Watson, and if Watson is what I think he is, O'Brien and that franchise are going to make noise this year...
Ehh, that's a pointless way of looking at sports but whatever you say I guess.
I'm sure youd be bitching about trotting out Brock Osweiler for a season but maybe you woudn't?
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If O'Brien is legitimately good, then he'll turn that around, right?
Ehh, that's a pointless way of looking at sports but whatever you say I guess.
I'm sure youd be bitching about trotting out Brock Osweiler for a season but maybe you woudn't?
People on this board treat Bill Parcells quote like the bible.
Crennel: NFL, 28-55
Mangini: NFL, 33-48
McDaniels: NFL, 11-17
O'Brien: the Lombardi of the Belichick tree. NCAA, 15-9; NFL, 31-34
coaching trees are somewhat ambiguous.
Some people include Jim Schwartz on the Belichick tree (which doesn't help) he was 29 - 51 with DET.
Also I've seen Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz, Al Groh, Pat Hill on his tree, and they've at least had NCAA success.
His "tree" also looks bad at the executive level, I think Tom Dimitrof did well in Atlanta, but Phil Savage (CLE) - though he's done well in a lesser role on PHI, Pioli (KC), Mike Tanenbaum (NYJ), Bob Quinn (DET), Jon Robinson (TEN), Jason Licht (TB)
I'm confused.
The whole B.B. coaching thing is overblown - most are going to shitty teams with poor management and not having success, what’s the shock? When has Detroit and Cleveland ever been successful?
In four season, Caldwell went
11-5
7-9
9-7
9-7
I never understood the hate for the guy. Those teams weren't exactly loaded either. 36-28 is a pretty solid record.
I still don't understand the pencil with Patricia. What's the need for it?
Well, for starters, Josh McDaniels was the one who created his QB mess in the first place. For another thing, most people here think Jim Fassel was an incompetent joke and yet he went 23-17-1 in games started by Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, and Kent Graham at QB in 1997-99.
I'm confused.
9 - 7 in his one season with the Jets may put him among their all time winningest coaches.
plus a career over .500 record with UVA and a .500 in conference record in the ACC is probably one of their better coaching records too. It's relative.
Not Saban-like success, but better than Charlie Weis.
Some? He had 2 AFC Championship game appearances on his resume, including a 14-2 season.
technically I said they've "had success" not "been successful", and maybe it's splitting hairs, but for example Ben McAdoo had some success, but was ultimately not successful.
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I know you see it as an “excuse” but I have a feeling you’d be pretty fucking mad if the Giants had most of, if not all those QBs playing meaningful games for us.
Well, for starters, Josh McDaniels was the one who created his QB mess in the first place. For another thing, most people here think Jim Fassel was an incompetent joke and yet he went 23-17-1 in games started by Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, and Kent Graham at QB in 1997-99.
Fassel made the Superbowl once. For all of his follies, he wasn't a joke.
Mike Groh eventually built himself into a quality coach who is now OC of the Eagles, but in 2006 he had no business being installed as OC.
The other thing I've noticed about ex-BB coordinators, their coaching staffs typically don't have a ton of talent.
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I know you see it as an “excuse” but I have a feeling you’d be pretty fucking mad if the Giants had most of, if not all those QBs playing meaningful games for us.
Well, for starters, Josh McDaniels was the one who created his QB mess in the first place. For another thing, most people here think Jim Fassel was an incompetent joke and yet he went 23-17-1 in games started by Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, and Kent Graham at QB in 1997-99.
The Lions were not a particularly good team last season taking advantage of a weak schedule and opponent injuries. Here are the teams they beat: Cards. Giants, GB (w/o Rodgers twice), Cleveland, Bears twice, Bucs and Vikings. Their one shining moment was beating the Vikings in week 4. I don't know whether Patricia will be a good HC or a bad one and neither do any of you after one game.
The other thing I've noticed about ex-BB coordinators, their coaching staffs typically don't have a ton of talent.
I'm pretty sure Fassel hand-picked both those guys He had an eye for coaching talent.
As far as the BB guys go, remember that coaches like Mangini, Patricia and McDaniel had almost no experience outside of BB. He picked them young and groomed them. That's great but they only know one way of doing things and have a hard time working with other coaches who come up thru different systems. It would take balls but a guy like Flores should consider taking a DC job elsewhere and working with someone else just to get different experience. He's seen the Belichick way but exposure to other ways might make him a better coach in the long run.
However you want to slice it, none of those HCs had a QB worth a damn and almost all of the franchises are bottom of the barrel except for Denver, which didn’t have much success post Elway up until Peyton Manning anyway.
So again, posting those records of B.B. coordinators is pretty irrelevant. They are some of the many coaches that didn’t work out but it’s hard to even think about it seriously when they are working for gutter organizations.
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In comment 14072820 Greg from LI said:
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If O'Brien is legitimately good, then he'll turn that around, right?
Ehh, that's a pointless way of looking at sports but whatever you say I guess.
I'm sure youd be bitching about trotting out Brock Osweiler for a season but maybe you woudn't?
People on this board treat Bill Parcells quote like the bible.
Parcells has a coaching tree so big the blue people from Avatar would dance around it and worship it.
Still kind of amazing how some current grn coaches speak of him, like Peyton and Minn coach, what's his face.
Did we ever find out if said top choice was Patricia or Shurmur?
Did we ever find out if said top choice was Patricia or Shurmur?
I thought it was McDaniels?
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first choice, but our top pick chose another job over the Giants
Did we ever find out if said top choice was Patricia or Shurmur?
I thought it was McDaniels?
Ah yes I meant to type Patricia or McDaniels. May well have been the latter
You aren’t reading. I said in my previous post that since Elway the Broncos haven generally been unsuccessful until Peyton Manning got there. The gutter I was referring to were the other teams. But you know that already and chose to mix words anyway.
Just admit that most coaches for Detroit and Cleveland and NYJ have been generally terrible and the coaching tree they came from hasn’t mattered. And what’s the common theme among all 3 places? Poor ownership, lack of overall talent, and absolutely nothing at QB.
Same thought. Another brilliant post.
PPG-wise they were 5th. And it was a year without Hightower.
They have used the same formula for about a decade: bend, bend more, still don't break, and give up more FGs than TDs. It's quite the high wire act BB does...
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Weis: NCAA, 41-49
Crennel: NFL, 28-55
Mangini: NFL, 33-48
McDaniels: NFL, 11-17
O'Brien: the Lombardi of the Belichick tree. NCAA, 15-9; NFL, 31-34
coaching trees are somewhat ambiguous.
Some people include Jim Schwartz on the Belichick tree (which doesn't help) he was 29 - 51 with DET.
Also I've seen Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz, Al Groh, Pat Hill on his tree, and they've at least had NCAA success.
His "tree" also looks bad at the executive level, I think Tom Dimitrof did well in Atlanta, but Phil Savage (CLE) - though he's done well in a lesser role on PHI, Pioli (KC), Mike Tanenbaum (NYJ), Bob Quinn (DET), Jon Robinson (TEN), Jason Licht (TB)
This is the one area clearly that Bill Walsh owns Belichick.
A coaching tree that has at least 4 Super Bowls on first glance (Holmgren 1, Shanahan 2, Gruden) and then you can add Seifert's 2 if you're of the mindset that winning SBs with an inherited team is not exactly automatic (and the '89 and '94 49ers are two of the most dominant teams of that dynasty).
Steve Young recounted a story where Brett Favre told him after a playoff win over the Niners that they used a pre-game speech the night before that was Walsh's speech.
Walsh was very focused on building a template for success, not just for himself but for others and it shows. Andy Reid under Holmgren has done pretty well for himself and his assistants.
Walsh even helped young BB himself when BB had an assistant tag along and sponge off Walsh during an offseason.
BB building upon Walsh's greatness to become better than Walsh is something that gets lost over time. It's like how top chess grandmasters from today are better than those from 50-100 years ago, simply because they are building off of more information.
BB is amazing coach surely, but it seems he is unable or unwilling to make it a legacy beyond him.