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Giants OL Question

Samiam : 9/13/2018 8:59 am
If Norwell was Gettleman’s main target in free agency as widely reported, what was the plan for LT if he signed Norwell. Hard to believe they would have kept Flowers but Norwell and Solders wasn’t going to happen. What was the plan for upgrading the tackle position if Norwell was signed?
Ask Gettleman...  
section125 : 9/13/2018 9:05 am : link
maybe he wanted both Norwell and Solder? Maybe like the Red Sox and Yankees, they bid to run the number up...
Plan...  
Jimmy Googs : 9/13/2018 9:14 am : link
would exactly do you mean by plan?

DG inherited an OL that basically needed to be replaced at every single position. My guess is the plan was to dedicate as much free agent dollars he could at whatever OL were the best upgrades available. He started with Norwell but lost and moved onto Solder and Omameh. Then he focused on getting another OL with 2nd round pick.

Think more triage with a lot of money than a plan...
BTW watching Solder struggle agains the Jags  
FranknWeezer : 9/13/2018 9:24 am : link
I couldn’t help but think, “was Benny With the Good Hair right about him??
RE: BTW watching Solder struggle agains the Jags  
section125 : 9/13/2018 9:27 am : link
In comment 14073518 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
I couldn’t help but think, “was Benny With the Good Hair right about him??


Solder is good, but I've seen enough Patriots games to know he wasn't Ogden or Munoz...he gets beat. He's an upgrade over Flowers.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/13/2018 9:46 am : link
Solder is an upgrade over Flowers, but he never was a top left tackle in this league. That was my issue with the contract he got. Most people responded, "What choice do we have?" Maybe right, but a significant chunk of cap space is going to a guy who isn't "elite."

The root cause of this mess is the shitty drafting. When you screw up the draft year after year, this is the kind of mess you get into.

The big question now is can they fix it in time before Eli is finished? Clock is ticking.
I think it's a fair question  
jcn56 : 9/13/2018 9:50 am : link
Maybe they figured that with a solid guard (either Hernandez or Norwell) playing next to Flowers he'd be acceptable? Or there was a second tier tackle prospect for either side that was worthy of consideration since they wouldn't have to pay Omameh as well?
Googs is right  
JonC : 9/13/2018 9:50 am : link
Fans want a total OL rebuild in one offseason, and it was a pipedream. If you think this way instead of like a fan, it's clear to see it was a 2-3 offseason project to rebuild the OL.

DG was going to spend what he could on whom was available via UFA, which wasn't much. He was going to draft the best OL available in accordance with their draft value board.

When poor drafting forces your hand, you wind up spending A+ money on Solder, a B/B+ talent.
RE: Googs is right  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/13/2018 10:17 am : link
In comment 14073568 JonC said:
Quote:
Fans want a total OL rebuild in one offseason, and it was a pipedream. If you think this way instead of like a fan, it's clear to see it was a 2-3 offseason project to rebuild the OL.

DG was going to spend what he could on whom was available via UFA, which wasn't much. He was going to draft the best OL available in accordance with their draft value board.

When poor drafting forces your hand, you wind up spending A+ money on Solder, a B/B+ talent.


I think some people recognized that. These are also the same people asking, "Does Eli have 2-3 years left?"
Probably not Eric, at least in my view.  
Jimmy Googs : 9/13/2018 10:21 am : link
But that was not the rebuild DG/PS were willing to put forth.

so here we are...

RE: RE: Googs is right  
JonC : 9/13/2018 10:27 am : link
In comment 14073623 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14073568 JonC said:


Quote:


Fans want a total OL rebuild in one offseason, and it was a pipedream. If you think this way instead of like a fan, it's clear to see it was a 2-3 offseason project to rebuild the OL.

DG was going to spend what he could on whom was available via UFA, which wasn't much. He was going to draft the best OL available in accordance with their draft value board.

When poor drafting forces your hand, you wind up spending A+ money on Solder, a B/B+ talent.



I think some people recognized that. These are also the same people asking, "Does Eli have 2-3 years left?"


For certain, and it was part of the gamble staying with Eli.
RE: RE: RE: Googs is right  
Jay on the Island : 9/13/2018 10:35 am : link
In comment 14073645 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14073623 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 14073568 JonC said:


Quote:


Fans want a total OL rebuild in one offseason, and it was a pipedream. If you think this way instead of like a fan, it's clear to see it was a 2-3 offseason project to rebuild the OL.

DG was going to spend what he could on whom was available via UFA, which wasn't much. He was going to draft the best OL available in accordance with their draft value board.

When poor drafting forces your hand, you wind up spending A+ money on Solder, a B/B+ talent.



I think some people recognized that. These are also the same people asking, "Does Eli have 2-3 years left?"



For certain, and it was part of the gamble staying with Eli.

I have a feeling this is all going to work out in the end. I think that Eli will play well this season but then fall off a cliff next year. Next season will suck but it will put them in place to get one of the top QB's in the draft, if they don't get one this year. Then they will get their future QB, be able to move on from Eli and his cap number, and move forward with Beckham, Barkley, Shepard, and Engram in their primes.
I'll take a B+  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2018 10:40 am : link
talent at left tackle any day of the fucking week. Have you seen OL play around the league? Solder will be fine.
I think it's hilarious that some fans don't think  
arniefez : 9/13/2018 10:42 am : link
they're fans. But I digress.

There are two ways to build an NFL team wholesale and retail. Wholesale is drafting, waiver wire and UDFA's. Retail is paying elite money for players who are only above average. Hence OV & Solder. The Giants are so bad at wholesale they're forced to pay retail for almost everything. Even the horrible new RG is way overpaid and the 3rd string RB too.

Throw in a 15 year QB and you're in cap hell with a top heavy roster and no room to rebuild on the fly. The Vikings had FIVE new OL's last year and made it to the championship game. They must have had a good OC.
Solder is not Jumbo Elliot stoning Bruce Smith elite  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/13/2018 10:47 am : link
Above average plus leadership which we absolutely needed makes his contract somewhat palatable.

Not a surprise if you go left to right pff score on our oline drops almost linerarelly?
RE: I'll take a B+  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/13/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 14073666 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
talent at left tackle any day of the fucking week. Have you seen OL play around the league? Solder will be fine.


It's not about the B+ talent... you can win with B+ talent. We won a Super Bowl with David Diehl playing left tackle.

The issue is when you spend top dollar (top 3 OL contract) on B talent... then fans wonder, "Why do we never have much salary cap room?"
Others have nailed it  
AcesUp : 9/13/2018 10:50 am : link
It's all about managing expectations. I saw this coming in the offseason, when people were acting like we fixed the OL because we have different names out there. Those different names also include a rookie, a couple projects/experiments and a stop gap. Those guys need to improve, and should, but this unit will still need additional work next offseason. If the Minnesota OL is the blueprint, keep in mind that they were merely OK last year, they weren't worldbeaters.
RE: I think it's hilarious that some fans don't think  
JonC : 9/13/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 14073669 arniefez said:
Quote:
they're fans. But I digress.

There are two ways to build an NFL team wholesale and retail. Wholesale is drafting, waiver wire and UDFA's. Retail is paying elite money for players who are only above average. Hence OV & Solder. The Giants are so bad at wholesale they're forced to pay retail for almost everything. Even the horrible new RG is way overpaid and the 3rd string RB too.

Throw in a 15 year QB and you're in cap hell with a top heavy roster and no room to rebuild on the fly. The Vikings had FIVE new OL's last year and made it to the championship game. They must have had a good OC.


Some fans are able to view things with clear perspective and without emotional attachment.
Our OL was depleted  
TMS : 9/13/2018 10:55 am : link
by draft mistakes, and poor FA choices over the past 6/7years. Those who never developed or played up to their supposed worth. A complete overhaul was needed. Obviously it is still a work in progress.
Aces  
JonC : 9/13/2018 11:01 am : link
good post.
RE: RE: I'll take a B+  
UberAlias : 9/13/2018 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14073684 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14073666 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


talent at left tackle any day of the fucking week. Have you seen OL play around the league? Solder will be fine.



It's not about the B+ talent... you can win with B+ talent. We won a Super Bowl with David Diehl playing left tackle.

The issue is when you spend top dollar (top 3 OL contract) on B talent... then fans wonder, "Why do we never have much salary cap room?"
Correct. Despite the massive investment, the Oline remains a disaster.
completely whiffing on Flowers  
Leg of Theismann : 9/13/2018 12:37 pm : link
Is really the difference between us being competitive and non-competitive last year and this year (if we indeed don't make the playoffs this year).

He was a top 10 pick. If had been the elite (or even just solid) presence at LT that a top 10 pick in his 4th year should be, we wouldn't have had to pay Solder what he got, maybe could have even bid even more for Norwell and landed him. We probably still could have taken Hernandez for the other OG spot and then spent the Omameh money on finding at least a serviceable RT. That would leave the line looking elite on the left and average or above average on the right, but over all that means we'd have a good o-line. With a good o-line this offense could really go off. No use having a bunch of weapons if our 37 year old immobile QB has no time in the pocket.
Repeating myself  
idiotsavant : 9/13/2018 12:43 pm : link
But obviously how you mix run/pass can help OL play greatly. It's not just play action, not just RPO, but a great run threat may even help when you DO use those vanilla drop back protections, as in; that split second of indecision on the part of a front 7, from recently getting smash faced on a run play.

Why I rant on duber quick to develop run plays, same thing. To force that hesitation on the next play...being one reason.
There were people who coming into thsi year thought the OL was  
arniefez : 9/13/2018 1:08 pm : link
"fixed"? I guess that explains who bought the PSL's.
RE: RE: RE: I'll take a B+  
Carson53 : 9/13/2018 1:16 pm : link
In comment 14073797 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14073684 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 14073666 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


talent at left tackle any day of the fucking week. Have you seen OL play around the league? Solder will be fine.



It's not about the B+ talent... you can win with B+ talent. We won a Super Bowl with David Diehl playing left tackle.

The issue is when you spend top dollar (top 3 OL contract) on B talent... then fans wonder, "Why do we never have much salary cap room?"

Correct. Despite the massive investment, the Oline remains a disaster.
.


Unfortunately, it had the smell of desperation, once DG
lost out on Norwell, boom he immediately signed Solder.
He is an above average LT, but never made a Pro Bowl.
He is definitely an upgrade, but he will have his
moments as well, as seen last Sunday.
They did an overhaul on the O Line, it is not going to look good in one week, especially against the Jags.
Lets see how it plays out, trying to be hopeful about it,
but Flowers has to at least hold his own.
We had incompetent people in key positions  
TMS : 9/13/2018 1:48 pm : link
in Reese and Ross for 7/8 years but Mara would not get rid of them instead he fired TC. Look how that worked out.
RE: Repeating myself  
GiantGrit : 9/13/2018 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14073829 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
But obviously how you mix run/pass can help OL play greatly. It's not just play action, not just RPO, but a great run threat may even help when you DO use those vanilla drop back protections, as in; that split second of indecision on the part of a front 7, from recently getting smash faced on a run play.

Why I rant on duber quick to develop run plays, same thing. To force that hesitation on the next play...being one reason.


I think you are 100% correct. For the Giants to reach their potential this year, they need a semblance of a running game early on...as you said, a split second of indecision or cheating up half a yard can make all the difference.
It’s still to early  
NikkiMac : 9/13/2018 2:53 pm : link
To say the Oline is the main problem it is a combination of things going on

plus 2 guys have moved from left to right , Barkley is going to help this line

out and it looks like these coaches know what they’re doing

Jacksonville was a formidable opponent built kind of like the old Giants.......
It’s still to early  
NikkiMac : 9/13/2018 2:54 pm : link
To say the Oline is the main problem it is a combination of things going on

plus 2 guys have moved from left to right , Barkley is going to help this line

out and it looks like these coaches know what they’re doing

Jacksonville was a formidable opponent built kind of like the old Giants.......
Eric  
Marty866b : 9/13/2018 7:44 pm : link
That is my problem with Gettleman. He went all in to win THIS year. Signing older players to big contracts, picking a runner over a quarterback, giving up a high pick for next season,all tell me he thinks this team can compete now for a championship. Hope he is correct but I don't see it. Time will tell.
Obviously we need OL help.  
TMS : 9/16/2018 6:16 pm : link
What else is new. At least now we have people in the organization who can evaluate those positions. Not a couple of party guys who stole money for many years, traveling around the country impersonating NFL scouting geniuses. Did either get a JOB yet ? Think about that.
Solder is a notoriously slow starter.  
madgiantscow009 : 9/16/2018 6:33 pm : link
Someone said, don't remember who. I have no idea.
RE: We had incompetent people in key positions  
mrvax : 9/16/2018 6:47 pm : link
In comment 14073940 TMS said:
Quote:
in Reese and Ross for 7/8 years but Mara would not get rid of them instead he fired TC. Look how that worked out.


2 different issues. One was you had an old head coach that could no longer manage in-game. The other was a ticking time bomb that rarely got their scouting correct.
RE: Obviously we need OL help.  
mrvax : 9/16/2018 6:50 pm : link
In comment 14076749 TMS said:
Quote:
What else is new. At least now we have people in the organization who can evaluate those positions. Not a couple of party guys who stole money for many years, traveling around the country impersonating NFL scouting geniuses. Did either get a JOB yet ? Think about that.



If they don't by next season, you'd have a very valid point. But none of these guys made some team fire their XO, GM or HC for those 3 rascals.

RE: Solder is a notoriously slow starter.  
mrvax : 9/16/2018 6:51 pm : link
In comment 14076779 madgiantscow009 said:
Quote:
Someone said, don't remember who. I have no idea.


Heard someone say the same about Stewart.
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