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Chris Simms: Observations from Giants Jags

Brown Recluse : 9/13/2018 9:53 am
I listen to the Simms and Lefkoe podcast fairly often and this morning they were going through their notes on each game from week 1. Chris Simms is usually pretty good with his observations and had mostly good things to say about the Giants offense:

*Said Beckham was used in more different ways on Sunday than he has been over the past 4 years (exaggeration obviously but you get the point). Shurmur looks for ways to get Beckham open vs McAdoo who just had Beckham line up and expect him to get open on his own.

*Solder and Hernandez were both every bit as bad as Flowers if not worse, but no one wants to talk about it because Flowers is easy to dump on. Said Solder is historically a slow starter though and he expects him to get better as the season progresses.
(Hernandez himself said he did not play well. Did not react as quickly as he is used to and got sloppy with his technique as a result.)

*Eli missed some big opportunities because he was looking at the pass rush instead. He worries about Eli this season and says when you play elite teams like the Jaguars, there are certain plays in the game that can turn it in your favor and you have to hit on them. These were handed to the Giants and they didn't capitalize on them.

*Giants lost this one but their offense looks so much better than it did in the past. People need to focus less on the fact that the Giants lost and give the Jaguars the credit they deserve as a top defense. The arrow is pointing way up for the Giants.
Thanks for the recap.  
Big Blue '56 : 9/13/2018 9:56 am : link
.
It all goes back to  
section125 : 9/13/2018 9:57 am : link
if they can be NFL average on the oline, this team will be scary good offensively...

big if as we all know.
Can't argue with  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 9/13/2018 9:59 am : link
that assessment at all. Seems to be dead on.
One key point..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2018 10:02 am : link
for me is the one about Beckham. Shurmur seems to realize that you put your star players in positions to make plays. He had Beckham constantly moving. He also did the same with Engram.

Once they work Barkley more into the passing game - it really should be exciting.
Agree with all of his points  
Capt. Don : 9/13/2018 10:03 am : link
especially the 3rd bullet about Eli worrying about the pressure and checking down too early.

I dont even blame Eli for this but he has David Carr Syndrome. He is missing guys who are wide open down the field because of perceived pressure. Again, this is a result of being under ACTUAL pressure for the better part of 50+ games - who can blame him?

Until the O-line gives him a reasonably consistent pocket, this will continue to be a problem.

RE: One key point..  
Big Blue '56 : 9/13/2018 10:03 am : link
In comment 14073590 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
for me is the one about Beckham. Shurmur seems to realize that you put your star players in positions to make plays. He had Beckham constantly moving. He also did the same with Engram.

Once they work Barkley more into the passing game - it really should be exciting.


Especially during this 1-2 year rebuild
If they can improve  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2018 10:04 am : link
slightly on O and correct some things this week, they should really win this fucking game.
RE: If they can improve  
Big Blue '56 : 9/13/2018 10:06 am : link
In comment 14073595 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
slightly on O and correct some things this week, they should really win this fucking game.


And many more
Regarding the point about certain plays  
idiotsavant : 9/13/2018 10:06 am : link
And the QB. It's not wrong, but:

That's what running and clock management are for. I mean. I get it, if you move ahead_ in score, on the last drive, it gives other team less time to recover. But.

Use up the clock, run the ball, with an even small lead and you avoid laying it all on one or two plays.

Additionally. It probably helps if the move the chains wrs (Shepard's) are told so, and the break the game wrs ( Beck's, EE and barkely?) Know that as well. So the move the chains players use the greater %ages (catch with a fall down if needed) whereas with the 'break the game' players you expect higher risk (longer plays but with lower %ages) and build that in to game planning.
RE: It all goes back to  
DavidinBMNY : 9/13/2018 10:11 am : link
In comment 14073585 section125 said:
Quote:
if they can be NFL average on the oline, this team will be scary good offensively...

big if as we all know.
Exactly. Let's give it a few more games before we throw in the towel and just have a healthy concern for now. It also doesn't hurt they faced a team as good as JAX on D. It doesn't necessarily get easier, but it might not get much more elite then that team.
I will say this  
mdthedream : 9/13/2018 10:17 am : link
The issue and why everyone got on Flowers s he was not ready to play from the first snap of the game. I also believe that players in today's game are never in game shape seeing they only play a quarter of football in the preseason and practice time is a lot less. So I do expect improvement. I also hope Flowers wakes the hell up and is ready to play.
That breakdown  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2018 10:19 am : link
alone makes me pretty confident in Shurmur as a play design-playcaller. Lots of really good looks there against a great defense.
That's a pretty fair  
Mike from Ohio : 9/13/2018 10:21 am : link
analysis. I think Hernandez will be good sooner rather than later. Tough draw getting that Dline in your first NFL game, but yes, he had a tough day.
for me  
Rory : 9/13/2018 10:31 am : link
I wait till week 4.

The oline will have settled in (gelled)

Injured players have either healed or gotten use to playing with an injury

Eli will have a better rapport with his receivers and their routes

D will be more game ready and conditioned.

By then we will know who this Giants team is.
RE: for me  
Big Blue '56 : 9/13/2018 10:37 am : link
In comment 14073653 Rory said:
Quote:
I wait till week 4.

The oline will have settled in (gelled)

Injured players have either healed or gotten use to playing with an injury

Eli will have a better rapport with his receivers and their routes

D will be more game ready and conditioned.

By then we will know who this Giants team is.


Parcells (and I believe TC as well, though not sure) always said it takes around 4 games to see what you really have
RE: Agree with all of his points  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/13/2018 10:38 am : link
In comment 14073591 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
especially the 3rd bullet about Eli worrying about the pressure and checking down too early.

I dont even blame Eli for this but he has David Carr Syndrome. He is missing guys who are wide open down the field because of perceived pressure. Again, this is a result of being under ACTUAL pressure for the better part of 50+ games - who can blame him?

Until the O-line gives him a reasonably consistent pocket, this will continue to be a problem.

Not sure it's a syndrome, but the right thing to do with this jailbreak oline.

He only has time to look for long developing passes on max protect (even then) or he did have time on playactions.
looking for examples of great offensive strategies?  
thrunthrublue : 9/13/2018 10:50 am : link
watch the rams......what a freight train of efficiency in both keeping opposing defenses off balance, and maximizing their talent, and...... did not make multiple mistakes, including wide open receivers either being missed with passes or receivers dropping those passes when delivered properly....
assessment is spot on  
hitdog42 : 9/13/2018 11:06 am : link
really nothing else to be said.

especially that when you play good teams, and you make the right play call, whether it be against an all out blitz or whatever it is... you have to hit-- if you dont you get FGs and lose. you arent going to march up and down on the jags all day.
Left side of line was not good.
his only observation missed was the absence of chipping the ends to give some help (and then releasing as yeldon did once against us)
Simms' first point was one of my biggest complaint  
Section331 : 9/13/2018 11:14 am : link
about McAdoo - he did nothing to help any WR's get open. Very little motion, very few bunch formations or rub routes, and everything was geared to getting Odell open on a slant route. He really had a HS level of play design.
RE: RE: Agree with all of his points  
GiantGrit : 9/13/2018 11:16 am : link
In comment 14073665 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 14073591 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


especially the 3rd bullet about Eli worrying about the pressure and checking down too early.

I dont even blame Eli for this but he has David Carr Syndrome. He is missing guys who are wide open down the field because of perceived pressure. Again, this is a result of being under ACTUAL pressure for the better part of 50+ games - who can blame him?

Until the O-line gives him a reasonably consistent pocket, this will continue to be a problem.



Not sure it's a syndrome, but the right thing to do with this jailbreak oline.

He only has time to look for long developing passes on max protect (even then) or he did have time on playactions.


.....or, he can occasionally take a hit and deliver a pass. If Eli isnít capable of taking 2-3 hits a game while ensuring the ball gets there he is not the man for the job and weíre in trouble. He left a few plays on the field last game that could have been the difference. That ball to Beckham down the left sideline could have easily been a touchdown if he led him instead of throwing at his ankles. Did other players leave plays on the field? Yes. But as we know in football, the man under center is extremely important. Its time for Eli to win some games for us.
To his point about Eli, that is troubling.  
Section331 : 9/13/2018 11:24 am : link
Once a QB gets into the habit of dropping his eye level, it is very hard to break. It is understandable, given how bad the OL has been, but is it correctable?
RE: RE: RE: Agree with all of his points  
Capt. Don : 9/13/2018 11:25 am : link
In comment 14073729 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
In comment 14073665 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


In comment 14073591 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


especially the 3rd bullet about Eli worrying about the pressure and checking down too early.

I dont even blame Eli for this but he has David Carr Syndrome. He is missing guys who are wide open down the field because of perceived pressure. Again, this is a result of being under ACTUAL pressure for the better part of 50+ games - who can blame him?

Until the O-line gives him a reasonably consistent pocket, this will continue to be a problem.



Not sure it's a syndrome, but the right thing to do with this jailbreak oline.

He only has time to look for long developing passes on max protect (even then) or he did have time on playactions.



.....or, he can occasionally take a hit and deliver a pass. If Eli isnít capable of taking 2-3 hits a game while ensuring the ball gets there he is not the man for the job and weíre in trouble. He left a few plays on the field last game that could have been the difference. That ball to Beckham down the left sideline could have easily been a touchdown if he led him instead of throwing at his ankles. Did other players leave plays on the field? Yes. But as we know in football, the man under center is extremely important. Its time for Eli to win some games for us.


If it were only 2-3 hits, that would be reasonably consistent pocket but you are VASTLY underestimating how many hits he takes and how many more he WOULD take if he held onto the ball longer. It is definitely in the double digits and is not tenable.

I call it a syndrome because sometimes he gets rid of it before he needs to because he is so programmed to only have time for one read. That wasnt always the case and ANY quarterback in his situation over the last 3 years would have the same problem.
If you want the ball to get downfield  
dep026 : 9/13/2018 11:26 am : link
and your QB to throw it well consistently, you need good pass blocking.

We did not have it week 1 or for the last 4 years.
Agree  
trueblueinpw : 9/13/2018 11:40 am : link
The line play will improve. These guys will come together, if they can stay healthy. I still donít think thereís enough talent so the ceiling isnít high, but the ceiling also isnít what we saw against the Jags.

The offense play design was leaps and bounds better than what we saw from McAdíoh.

Eli missed two throws to OBJ fo TDs. No excuses there, he needs to make those throws.

Engram had some drops, just like Eli needs to make he throws, the receivers have to make the catches.

Most NFL games come down to a few key plays. Thatís why burning a TO to start the half or a phantom OPI or no call DPI or failing to gain a yard on third and one or a dropped pass or a missed throw or - letís not forget the D - a missed contain assignment, failing to set the edge, or, in the Giants case last Sunday, all of the above, can swing a game.
If Eli is still looking at the rush instead of downfield  
The_Boss : 9/13/2018 12:13 pm : link
He truly is finished. I don't blame him. He's been battered for the last 7 years as he's endured awful OL's.
Hernandez gave up that Campbell sack  
Rflairr : 9/13/2018 12:18 pm : link
When the Giants were driving. One of the biggest plays of the game
RE: If Eli is still looking at the rush instead of downfield  
bw in dc : 9/13/2018 12:30 pm : link
In comment 14073788 The_Boss said:
Quote:
He truly is finished. I don't blame him. He's been battered for the last 7 years as he's endured awful OL's.


So true. The QB yips hit Dave Brown as hard as anybody I've ever seen. That guy was petrified.

And you can't turn that on and off depending on the quality of the opponent's pass rush.

RE: Simms' first point was one of my biggest complaint  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/13/2018 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14073722 Section331 said:
Quote:
about McAdoo - he did nothing to help any WR's get open. Very little motion, very few bunch formations or rub routes, and everything was geared to getting Odell open on a slant route. He really had a HS level of play design.

Could be due to Barkley, but has OBJ ever caught 11+ passes for MacDoofus?
Talking about the offense...  
BamaBlue : 9/13/2018 12:36 pm : link
doesn't really yield too many surprises. Last year, the offense was riddled with injuries and saddled with the worst OL that I've seen the Giants field (ever). Add 'historically stupid' play calling and the offense was an epic fail. So... I expected the offense to show last week, even against the Jags very potent defense.

The surprise for me was the improvements on defense. Without Vernon and with a lot of new pieces and a new scheme, the defense held a better than average offense to 13 points. I am hopeful the defense can continue to improve... they have been an absolute train wreck level disaster 2 out of the last 3 seasons.
RE: RE: Simms' first point was one of my biggest complaint  
giants#1 : 9/13/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14073814 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 14073722 Section331 said:


Quote:


about McAdoo - he did nothing to help any WR's get open. Very little motion, very few bunch formations or rub routes, and everything was geared to getting Odell open on a slant route. He really had a HS level of play design.


Could be due to Barkley, but has OBJ ever caught 11+ passes for MacDoofus?


Yes, as both OC and HC. Games with 10+ catches:

12 - Wash 2014
12 - Phi 2014
11 - Ten 2014
11 - Phi 2016
11 - Jax 2018
10 - Dal 2014
10 - Cin 2016
10 - Pit 2016
I'm amazed how little talk there has been about our upgrade in  
BestFeature : 9/13/2018 1:00 pm : link
coaching. I mean there has been some but when people talk about why this team is better or worse no one takes that into account. Look at what a change in OC did for Atlanta for example.
RE: I'm amazed how little talk there has been about our upgrade in  
giants#1 : 9/13/2018 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14073847 BestFeature said:
Quote:
coaching. I mean there has been some but when people talk about why this team is better or worse no one takes that into account. Look at what a change in OC did for Atlanta for example.


Lots of talk about that in the offseason, but haven't seen any concrete benefits (i.e. wins) of it yet.

And many are (IMO, rightfully) pissed about not having Beckham back for the final PR.
My guess is we are fortunate to have The Shurm  
idiotsavant : 9/13/2018 1:18 pm : link
...And The Betch
RE: One key point..  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2018 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14073590 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
for me is the one about Beckham. Shurmur seems to realize that you put your star players in positions to make plays. He had Beckham constantly moving. He also did the same with Engram.

Once they work Barkley more into the passing game - it really should be exciting.


Definitely agree but the O-line needs to be at least adequate to really open things up, so far not so much.
RE: If they can improve  
santacruzom : 9/13/2018 3:55 pm : link
In comment 14073595 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
slightly on O and correct some things this week, they should really win this fucking game.


This game won't be a cakewalk either, unless Ereck Flowers manages to make (legal) contact with Demarcus Lawrence from time to time.
Big Blue'56  
Marty866b : 9/13/2018 4:07 pm : link
Looking at all the roster moves and the draft i don't think this was supposed to be a rebuild. Rebuild with a 37+ year old quarterback? Sign free agent players over 30 years old? Give up high draft pick in the supplemental draft? I think this GM thinks we can win now.
BTW, I was hoping to pick a qb in an effort to rebuild.
The two times Eli missed OBJ for TDs....  
Milton : 9/13/2018 4:17 pm : link
The first time he was scrambling for his life and had to throw from an awkward position. The second time was the long bomb where there was incidental contact between OBJ and the DB that threw off the timing. Without the incidental contact, I I think the pass hits him in stride.
Agree 100%  
PaulN : 9/13/2018 5:16 pm : link
They are counting on winning now. But they are also positioned for continued success after Eli as long as they have a plan to get a franchise QB in here, they said they have a plan, so I will hold them to it. They have set it up top have Beckham and Barkley here for the next 5 years, that to me is the true window for this team.
I'm not sure why how McAdoo used Odell Beckham needs  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2018 5:16 pm : link
To be discussed. He produced like a top 3 WR while McAdoo was here. On multiple occasions he won games for us. He was a complete monster.

Yes it's neat to see him be used in different ways than he might have done before but to what end? He was already great, and he was already making the offense around him better by virtue of his effect on the game.
RE: It all goes back to  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2018 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14073585 section125 said:
Quote:
if they can be NFL average on the oline, this team will be scary good offensively...

big if as we all know.


Absolutely, it would be great to see this Offense in ATTACK mode, I am just so tired of seeing them play back on their heels and not dictating the action!
RE: It all goes back to  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2018 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14073585 section125 said:
Quote:
if they can be NFL average on the oline, this team will be scary good offensively...

big if as we all know.


Absolutely, it would be great to see this Offense in ATTACK mode, I am just so tired of seeing them play back on their heels and not dictating the action!
What is considered scrambling for his life to Eli  
xman : 9/13/2018 7:01 pm : link
is a walk in the park for more mobile QB's. As the year plays out I expect to see exactly what we saw in this past game: missed opportunies for scores
RE: I'm not sure why how McAdoo used Odell Beckham needs  
Brown Recluse : 9/13/2018 10:03 pm : link
In comment 14074211 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
To be discussed. He produced like a top 3 WR while McAdoo was here. On multiple occasions he won games for us. He was a complete monster.

Yes it's neat to see him be used in different ways than he might have done before but to what end? He was already great, and he was already making the offense around him better by virtue of his effect on the game.


Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Youre right. I forgot how productive and unpredictable the offense was under McAdoo. Really moved the ball well and scored a lot of points.



Good grief...you put a damper on everything. Sometimes I wonder if youre a real person or a stuffed donkey who can never find his tail.
RE: RE: I'm not sure why how McAdoo used Odell Beckham needs  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/13/2018 10:34 pm : link
In comment 14074440 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 14074211 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


To be discussed. He produced like a top 3 WR while McAdoo was here. On multiple occasions he won games for us. He was a complete monster.

Yes it's neat to see him be used in different ways than he might have done before but to what end? He was already great, and he was already making the offense around him better by virtue of his effect on the game.



Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Youre right. I forgot how productive and unpredictable the offense was under McAdoo. Really moved the ball well and scored a lot of points.



Good grief...you put a damper on everything. Sometimes I wonder if youre a real person or a stuffed donkey who can never find his tail.


My point was pretty clear. Tee off on McAdoo all you want. But the idea that he somehow misused Beckham is without merit. There are plenty of things to kill the guy about without fabricating one.
RE: RE: RE: I'm not sure why how McAdoo used Odell Beckham needs  
Brown Recluse : 9/14/2018 6:28 am : link
In comment 14074463 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14074440 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


In comment 14074211 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


To be discussed. He produced like a top 3 WR while McAdoo was here. On multiple occasions he won games for us. He was a complete monster.

Yes it's neat to see him be used in different ways than he might have done before but to what end? He was already great, and he was already making the offense around him better by virtue of his effect on the game.



Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Youre right. I forgot how productive and unpredictable the offense was under McAdoo. Really moved the ball well and scored a lot of points.



Good grief...you put a damper on everything. Sometimes I wonder if youre a real person or a stuffed donkey who can never find his tail.



My point was pretty clear. Tee off on McAdoo all you want. But the idea that he somehow misused Beckham is without merit. There are plenty of things to kill the guy about without fabricating one.


The only one fabricating anything is you. No one said anything about McAdoo ďmisusingĒ Beckham. He was just pointing out how refreshing it was to see Beckham used more creatively and to see him benefit from it the way players like Antonio Brown do. Iím not sure why something like that isnt worthy of discussion to a football fan. Unless of course that fan is less interested in discussion and more interested in finding ways to create an argument with people.

TTH is finding creative ways to make arguments this season  
ZoneXDOA : 9/16/2018 5:26 am : link
Itís refreshing
Not a scout so donít love to opine on this things  
bhill410 : 9/16/2018 7:44 am : link
Too often but from my amateur eye Eli missed probably 5-6 wide open (not sure if latimer, shep or Beckham) players downfield last week. Suspect it wouldnít have shown up on tv but I remember thinking several times that he went to the slant with a guy wide open over the safety. Some of those had pressure but several did not.
I was saying the same thing about the OL during and right after  
EricJ : 9/16/2018 11:14 am : link
the game. People were freaking out there saying we needed to CUT Flowers NOW. Meanwhile, nobody was watching what was happening with the rest of the line. Too many instances on Barkley's runs, he was hit in the backfield the moment he got the ball. Guys were busting through all over the line and not just on Flowers.
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