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It's ok to take some positives from game 1...

Keith : 9/13/2018 10:41 am
I understand that there are no moral victories in the NFL. I understand that this team made decisions this past offseason to "go for it" with Eli. I understand all of that and regardless of whether we agree or not with their decisions, its ok to see some improvements.

It's week 1 in a 17 week season. We didn't have to come out of the gate firing on all cylinders. It's ok to progressively get better and hopefully be in a position to compete come playoff time. I think some people still look at this team as an extension of 2017. Not that it's anything to be proud of, but we showed significant improvements from last year. Lets give them a chance to grow as a team. New coach, a lot of new players. New system.

The positives that I saw in week 1:

-OBJ is back. He dominated arguably the best DB in the game and he should have done more.

-The OL. It wasn't great, but it was much better than last year. We played an incredible DL and they held their own for the most part. There was some pressure on Eli, but not like last year where it looked like 5 guys came in unblocked.

-Defense. Our secondary did well, our run defense was decent. Our pass rush lacked, but we were missing our best pass rusher. We should get better when Vernon comes back.

-Barkley. The kid is definitely special. We all have our opinions on the rookie class and what we would have done, but you can't deny his talent.


Lets let this team build towards something before we write off the season because some people wanted to break it up and rebuild.
I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2018 10:44 am : link
we will also see a marked improvement in covering kicks and punts.

Returning them, however, might remain a challenge
I still have questions about our defense  
dep026 : 9/13/2018 10:46 am : link
it didnt looked good in the first half last week with Jax able to sustain long drives. When they didnt have their number 1 WR or RB, we dominated.

That wont be the case each week.
I could be wrong but IIRC  
Dr. D : 9/13/2018 10:46 am : link
we lost at least 1 of our first couple games in 3 out of 4 of our SB years. Not saying we're going there, but to your point, it's a marathon.
dep,  
Keith : 9/13/2018 10:47 am : link
I don't disagree, but new defense with lots of new players and missing our best pass rusher. Our secondary was solid considering Bortles had tons of time to sit and scan the field. I think we will only get better defensively.
Big picture:  
GiantNatty : 9/13/2018 10:47 am : link
- it was good to be competitive again, and against a team that many have going to the Super Bowl. By no means did the Giants embarrass themselves, and that's a start.

- the defense played winning football. Holding a team to 13 points and no points in the second half is a sign of definite improvement.

Small picture:
- it was a winnable game that likely would have meant a lot going forward. Now they are backed up and on the road for two games.

We'll see how they respond going forward.
Another positive  
Jay on the Island : 9/13/2018 10:49 am : link
Shurmur made solid adjustments at half time. This is a dramatically different roster than last season so it will take time before Shurmur has a better idea of how to utilize some of them. I am convinced that he will make the proper adjustments next week versus Dallas and the offense will play far better than it did last season.
I started this thread because I keep reading from some  
Keith : 9/13/2018 10:50 am : link
complainers that there are no moral victories and there are no positives because we are built to win now(taking SB over Darnold). It's quite unfair. We need to let this team grow and there were some signs of life. After last year, thats really all we could ask in week 1 against a quality team, no?
I took  
UK Giants Fan : 9/13/2018 10:52 am : link
quite a few positives from the game. I think if i am thinking with my head rather than heart then it probably went as I expected in terms of scoreline.

OBJ looks better than ever.

If you offered me before the season kicked off 1-1, losing close to jags and beating cowboys on the road, I definitely would've taken it.

All my optimism will disappear though if we lose to a cowboys side who I thought looked very poor (and can finally rule out the gamely Witten TD)
Agree there were positives  
jogo1 : 9/13/2018 10:53 am : link
It's not like the game wasn't competitive--far from it. I'll wait until Sunday night to panic.
A win this week  
dep026 : 9/13/2018 10:54 am : link
is huge. I am ready to win a few games in a row.
two habitually lacking elements with the giants.....  
thrunthrublue : 9/13/2018 10:54 am : link
successful screen passes, and punt returning. two big holes in the bottom of the canoe, that the other areas combined cannot bail fast enough to keep up.
Think about what we'd be thinking if the teams were flipped  
BestFeature : 9/13/2018 10:58 am : link
We'd be complaining that the game against a 3-13 team from a year ago and our almost SB team was in such a close and competitive game. Think of it from that angle.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/13/2018 10:59 am : link
I said this a few times yesterday...

After the 2017 opener, I was horrified. That was the type of game where you could say "it doesn't matter that it was one game... we didn't do ANYTHING positive"

That was one of the most alarming openers I can recall recently.

This past Sunday was different. I didn't feel like the Giants were a completely dysfunctional team. We did a lot of good things. Beckham and Barkley showed how dangerous they are. We made some dumb mistakes, left some plays on the field, and if we don't bungle that last punt, I have a feeling we may have found a way down the field for a score.

I do think Sunday is a must-win. But I actually have some faith that this team can and should win that game.

Last season's opener was extremely worrisome. This wasn't, really. Just frustrating because it feels like one we could have had.
They have got to score points  
family progtitioner : 9/13/2018 11:04 am : link
This is ridiculous already. They now have a top 3 WR and likely a top 5 RB on the team. They can't let penalties and drops disrupt 3/4 of their drives.

If they can't score against Dallas, it's time to break the glass and sound the alarm.
It's not Beckham's fault  
Chris684 : 9/13/2018 11:07 am : link
but I think we need to see more effective catches/yards for him to make more of an impact.

If we need to force more balls to him in order to do so, so be it. The 2 penalties he drew were more effective than most of his catches were because they were downfield.

Obviously he got bumped and he and Eli couldn't connect in the end zone, but that's what we need to be doing. I also thought we had him for the quick slant in the red zone for a TD.

His yards and catches were there, but if you ask Jacksonville they were probably pleased with keeping mostly everything in front of them.

Again, not a knock on Beckham, if anything, need to be more aggressive in getting the ball to him on our terms.

Overall, I think there is hope for WC contention. The left side of the OL needs to play better (we know what we're getting from the right side).
The defense actually made important 3rd down stops  
Dave in PA : 9/13/2018 11:07 am : link
When was the last time we saw that??
RE: It's not Beckham's fault  
giants#1 : 9/13/2018 11:10 am : link
In comment 14073709 Chris684 said:
Quote:
but I think we need to see more effective catches/yards for him to make more of an impact.

If we need to force more balls to him in order to do so, so be it. The 2 penalties he drew were more effective than most of his catches were because they were downfield.

Obviously he got bumped and he and Eli couldn't connect in the end zone, but that's what we need to be doing. I also thought we had him for the quick slant in the red zone for a TD.

His yards and catches were there, but if you ask Jacksonville they were probably pleased with keeping mostly everything in front of them.

Again, not a knock on Beckham, if anything, need to be more aggressive in getting the ball to him on our terms.

Overall, I think there is hope for WC contention. The left side of the OL needs to play better (we know what we're getting from the right side).


Engram/Shepard need to make more plays for that to happen. Beckham's speed/quickness was getting him open, but the Jags team speed, great tackling, and their secondary's focus on Beckham was keeping him contained and limiting his YAC.

Getting some more chunk plays from the running game will open up some space for Beckham too as it'll bring the PA pass into the mix.
A little optimistic  
TMS : 9/13/2018 11:11 am : link
I think. Fournette leaving injured before half time was a huge break for us and a game changer for them. They are a good and proven veteran team on the rise, so all in all we did ok. Never expected this team to do well in the first half of the season, after the overhaul we went through. We are certainly a much better team now than last year. Keep the faith.
Also  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2018 11:13 am : link
just put Beckham back there on punt returns where the other team is kicking between the goal line and the 25. Just do it. We are losing valuable field position because we haven't had someone who can return a punt in 10 fucking years
Jax is the top defensive team in the NFL, and also have a good  
PatersonPlank : 9/13/2018 11:13 am : link
running attack. They almost made the SB and we were competitive. I am optimistic. If we can play that way all season we will score a lot of points, and win a lot of games.
RE: A little optimistic  
giants#1 : 9/13/2018 11:15 am : link
In comment 14073719 TMS said:
Quote:
I think. Fournette leaving injured before half time was a huge break for us and a game changer for them. They are a good and proven veteran team on the rise, so all in all we did ok. Never expected this team to do well in the first half of the season, after the overhaul we went through. We are certainly a much better team now than last year. Keep the faith.


I'd be curious to know if we slowed the run game in the 2nd half because Fournette was out or was it primarily due to some halftime adjustments in our approach? Was Yeldon leaving yards on the table that Fournette would've picked up easily?
.  
arcarsenal : 9/13/2018 11:16 am : link
Beckham really should have been back to return that last punt. That's exactly the spot where you use him there.
RE: .  
Jay on the Island : 9/13/2018 11:18 am : link
In comment 14073728 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Beckham really should have been back to return that last punt. That's exactly the spot where you use him there.

I don't want Beckham as the primary PR but situations like that call for his use.
RE: It's not Beckham's fault  
Keith : 9/13/2018 11:27 am : link
In comment 14073709 Chris684 said:
Quote:
but I think we need to see more effective catches/yards for him to make more of an impact.

If we need to force more balls to him in order to do so, so be it. The 2 penalties he drew were more effective than most of his catches were because they were downfield.

Obviously he got bumped and he and Eli couldn't connect in the end zone, but that's what we need to be doing. I also thought we had him for the quick slant in the red zone for a TD.

His yards and catches were there, but if you ask Jacksonville they were probably pleased with keeping mostly everything in front of them.

Again, not a knock on Beckham, if anything, need to be more aggressive in getting the ball to him on our terms.

Overall, I think there is hope for WC contention. The left side of the OL needs to play better (we know what we're getting from the right side).


I dont disagree with your overall point, but sometimes you have to tip your cap to the other team. I thought Jax did a great job of rallying to OBJ when he touched the ball. Most teams don't have Jax's abilities though. Odell will break a bunch of those throughout the season. Also, there were some really big plays that were just missed, whether it was a penalty or a bad throw, it was close to being 12 catches for 150 yards and a TD.
RE: RE: .  
Keith : 9/13/2018 11:31 am : link
In comment 14073730 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14073728 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Beckham really should have been back to return that last punt. That's exactly the spot where you use him there.


I don't want Beckham as the primary PR but situations like that call for his use.


Yeah and that's how the HC said he was gonna use OBJ. His reasoning for not having OBJ back there made no sense. He said it was because they were in punt block, but I'm not sure why that matters.
RE: RE: .  
Joe in CT : 9/13/2018 11:35 am : link
In comment 14073730 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14073728 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Beckham really should have been back to return that last punt. That's exactly the spot where you use him there.


I don't want Beckham as the primary PR but situations like that call for his use.


We really haven't had a return specialist since Dwayne Harris and that really did not go well. Let's give this kid Clay a shot, sure he muffed a huge PR with a costly TO but lets see if he can redeem himself, he's a young player and hopefully can learn and grow from this mistake before we set him out to pasture.
RE: RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 9/13/2018 11:41 am : link
In comment 14073745 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 14073730 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14073728 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Beckham really should have been back to return that last punt. That's exactly the spot where you use him there.


I don't want Beckham as the primary PR but situations like that call for his use.



Yeah and that's how the HC said he was gonna use OBJ. His reasoning for not having OBJ back there made no sense. He said it was because they were in punt block, but I'm not sure why that matters.


I didn't hear/see how he answered this question, but that doesn't make sense. There was still someone back there. Why couldn't it be Beckham or Barkley?
Yep, that was his answer.  
Keith : 9/13/2018 11:45 am : link
He said they will use OBJ on occassion, but he wasn't there at that point because they were in punt block formation. He didn't really explain what he meant by that and Francessa didn't dig into it too deeper, but that was his answer. He mumbled something about how there usually isn't a return when in punt block, but that didn't make sense either. I think it's a lesson learned for the coach.
Hard to draw conclusions  
GiantGrit : 9/13/2018 11:46 am : link
After one week. Especially when the offense went against such a great defense. Weapons will be fine. Offensive line can only improve and i believe Shurmur will scheme well to hide some deficiencies there.

Some here will call me an Eli hater, but i have some concerns. Inconsistent ball placement and a lack of taking over games concern me. Iíve seen many posts saying ďEli didnít lose us this gameĒ Well he certainly didnít win it either. I get the pressure breaks down. But heís paid good money to perform. If his body is incapable of taking a hit, he should not be out there. If he hears phantom footsteps that force a quick checkdown, he should not be out there. It will be VERY hard for us to build an elite offensive line given the state of linemen in the league. Even if the line improves, which i think it will, Eli will need to throw some dimes in key situatuons. I hope he steps up.

Something that has only been mentioned a few times...our pass rush was bad on Sunday. Clean pockets way too often all day. Relying on oft injured Olivier Vernon to come back and save us is...probably not realistic. Others have to step up. I like Carter but he needs time.

When was the last time we dominated a division rival? When was the last time we dominated anyone? Iím tired of drawing positives. I want to see this team step on Dallasí throat. They are vulnerable right now. I want to see over 30 points and a strong defensive showing.

Beckham  
ryanmkeane : 9/13/2018 11:51 am : link
is probably the best punt return man in the league outside of Cohen, and we just never use him. It's really fucking frustrating. Steelers have no problem putting Antonio Brown out there every fucking time. You can't play scared.
re: punt block  
giants#1 : 9/13/2018 11:52 am : link
Only rationale I can think of is:
1. He felt Beckham would be too aggressive with a punt block on and try to make something out of nothing, risking a TO (which happened anyway)

2. Punt block means the gunners get down the field quicker thus increasing the likelihood of one of them getting a big hit on the PR, which increases chance of injury.
Barkley's long TD run  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/13/2018 11:54 am : link
Amped up the D to play suffocating absolute shut down football. The D was playing with more energy.
RE: Beckham  
giants#1 : 9/13/2018 11:55 am : link
In comment 14073765 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
is probably the best punt return man in the league outside of Cohen, and we just never use him. It's really fucking frustrating. Steelers have no problem putting Antonio Brown out there every fucking time. You can't play scared.


Ever watch Tyreek Hill?
RE: .  
chopperhatch : 9/13/2018 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14073702 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I said this a few times yesterday...

After the 2017 opener, I was horrified. That was the type of game where you could say "it doesn't matter that it was one game... we didn't do ANYTHING positive"

That was one of the most alarming openers I can recall recently.

This past Sunday was different. I didn't feel like the Giants were a completely dysfunctional team. We did a lot of good things. Beckham and Barkley showed how dangerous they are. We made some dumb mistakes, left some plays on the field, and if we don't bungle that last punt, I have a feeling we may have found a way down the field for a score.

I do think Sunday is a must-win. But I actually have some faith that this team can and should win that game.

Last season's opener was extremely worrisome. This wasn't, really. Just frustrating because it feels like one we could have had.


Very much this. If the score were the same last year and that last punting situation the same, I would almost not watch with 50 secs and no time outs to get six points. I legit thought we might make some things happen to get at least to where we have a couple plays from the 10-15 yard line to get a score.
Keith  
joeinpa : 9/13/2018 12:29 pm : link
I agree it a ok to take positives and that improvement is a process

It s just that some of us after last year and disappointment in the draft, were out of patience to be patient.

But your POV is a good one.
Keith  
ColHowPepper : 9/13/2018 12:59 pm : link
A significant positive for me (amidst the well known negatives) was the play of #24, not Eli Apple's play per se, which at times was outstanding, but the fact that FINALLY a Giants' CB in full stride coverage of the WR, got his HEAD around to track the ball. It has been years since we've seen this, on a consistent basis, if at all. The coaching of this crucial aspect of man-to-man coverage has evidently been terrible. Even JJ, whose AA (I won't step on Gatorade's tender sensibilities lol), instincts, and experience make him one of the best in the NFL doesn't do it on a consistent basis. And, as said, I have rarely seen it in Giants' DBs.

It's been a pet peeve of mine with this team ever since SB 42 when Pierce, admittedly a different kettle of fish, tight quarters, quick over the middle, never looked back at Brady. If he had, he could have gotten a hand on the ball. With CBs, it's more egregious, and we finally saw some evidence that coaching is making a difference.
Can't agree on the O-line  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2018 1:04 pm : link
They were awful terrible pass-blocking and weak at the point of attack.
The major bright spot was Barkley, let's face it the 70 yard TD was pretty much all him, other than that 35 yards gained with not a lot of running room but teams will have to respect him.
RE: Keith  
giants#1 : 9/13/2018 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14073846 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
A significant positive for me (amidst the well known negatives) was the play of #24, not Eli Apple's play per se, which at times was outstanding, but the fact that FINALLY a Giants' CB in full stride coverage of the WR, got his HEAD around to track the ball. It has been years since we've seen this, on a consistent basis, if at all. The coaching of this crucial aspect of man-to-man coverage has evidently been terrible. Even JJ, whose AA (I won't step on Gatorade's tender sensibilities lol), instincts, and experience make him one of the best in the NFL doesn't do it on a consistent basis. And, as said, I have rarely seen it in Giants' DBs.

It's been a pet peeve of mine with this team ever since SB 42 when Pierce, admittedly a different kettle of fish, tight quarters, quick over the middle, never looked back at Brady. If he had, he could have gotten a hand on the ball. With CBs, it's more egregious, and we finally saw some evidence that coaching is making a difference.


I disagree about JJ. He was a top 5 CB in 2016 and locked down some top WRs that season. Last year, IIRC, he started strong the first few weeks but his play tailed off significantly as the season wore on (I think he was banged up more than we knew).
giants1  
ColHowPepper : 9/13/2018 1:13 pm : link
hard to disagree with you about 2017, but there was a lot of bad going on last year. Let's hope it proves to be one off. In any event, that was not the thrust of my comment
RE: re: punt block  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2018 1:39 pm : link
In comment 14073767 giants#1 said:
Quote:
Only rationale I can think of is:
1. He felt Beckham would be too aggressive with a punt block on and try to make something out of nothing, risking a TO (which happened anyway)

2. Punt block means the gunners get down the field quicker thus increasing the likelihood of one of them getting a big hit on the PR, which increases chance of injury.


Would agree, also I think Shurmur was a little reluctant to use OBJ as a PR in week 1. But this team needs a W in the worst way so it should have been considered.
Keith, 1 concern I have  
mrvax : 9/13/2018 1:56 pm : link
Quote:
We should get better when Vernon comes back.


is that Vernon has a high ankle sprain. Each year when he's hurt, his talent takes a nose dive. He's shown that he's just not very effective when playing through an injury. I'd be surprised if OV can come back Sunday and get to the QB.

Yeah I wouldn't bet on Vernon playing this week.  
Keith : 9/13/2018 2:12 pm : link
It's def a prob because we severely lacked a pass rush last week, but I'd rather get him healthy and if we need to sit him for another week(or 2), we'll be better off for it.
You have..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2018 2:46 pm : link
to give Jenkins a pass last year. He gutted out being a CB covering #1 WR's on a severely sprained ankle.

And while he wasn't fantastic, he was adequate - and injured.

It's also another thing that separated him from DRC.
you  
Les in TO : 9/13/2018 3:13 pm : link
can't judge a season by the first game, especially with a new coach, new systems and significant roster turnover.

I haven't seen too many people write this season off on the basis of the jags loss.

even if the giants lose to dallas, the season is not over. a lot can happen even if the playoff odds significantly decrease. and there are a number of potential story lines - will the defense start to gel and find its rhythm? is eli apple back? how good can barkley be? and the EliPhant in the room - if the team is out of playoff contention, will we get a chance to see lauletta in action?

it was a close loss, where there may have been a chance to snatch victory with a crazy beckham catch and run or pass interference on a deep pass if not for the muffed punt.

I think most people expect this season to be a transition year, similar in some respects to 2004 - new coaches, new culture, new system and new talent after just a disastrous previous season (remember the joe horn cellphone game in 2003?).
I don't think this week is a must win  
adamg : 9/13/2018 4:26 pm : link
In the sense that starting 0-2 means we're destined for failure. But I do think it's a should win. I think we're better than the Cowboys and so we should beat the teams we're better than. I'm expecting a win too.

I agree with Keith's take here. There's reason for optimism with this team unlike the team from last year, which was a clusterfuck from beginning to end. This year, we look like a competitive team based on the small sample we've been given so far.
RE: Yeah I wouldn't bet on Vernon playing this week.  
mrvax : 9/13/2018 5:42 pm : link
In comment 14073980 Keith said:
Quote:
It's def a prob because we severely lacked a pass rush last week, but I'd rather get him healthy and if we need to sit him for another week(or 2), we'll be better off for it.


Yeah, OV is likely out. Time for Carter to shine on passing downs. 4 years ago, Connor Barwin had 14.5 sacks! Hope he finds a fountain of youth.

RE: I don't think this week is a must win  
gmenatlarge : 9/13/2018 5:47 pm : link
In comment 14074171 adamg said:
Quote:
In the sense that starting 0-2 means we're destined for failure. But I do think it's a should win. I think we're better than the Cowboys and so we should beat the teams we're better than. I'm expecting a win too.

I agree with Keith's take here. There's reason for optimism with this team unlike the team from last year, which was a clusterfuck from beginning to end. This year, we look like a competitive team based on the small sample we've been given so far.


I would agree that there are positive signs but there is nothing of substance as of yet. They didnít, win any phase of the game last week, but there is hope. Yes not a must win but about as close as a team can get to it at this point of the season this team needs a W desperately. I am sure they are saying pretty much the same thing in Dallas!
2 Sacks given up, a Pick 6 against, 9 tackles for a loss  
Jimmy Googs : 9/13/2018 5:56 pm : link
and basically a 2-yard avg running the ball sans the 68 yard burst.

Not to say anything about how ridiculous Flowers & Co looked on the season opening drive backing up each play and almost giving up a safety...twice.

Yeah, I though the O-line was a real positive.
RE: 2 Sacks given up, a Pick 6 against, 9 tackles for a loss  
gmenatlarge : 9/14/2018 10:21 pm : link
In comment 14074241 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
and basically a 2-yard avg running the ball sans the 68 yard burst.

Not to say anything about how ridiculous Flowers & Co looked on the season opening drive backing up each play and almost giving up a safety...twice.

Yeah, I though the O-line was a real positive.


Thank you for putting it so succinctly. I have been getting a lot of flak on other threads for making the same point, but really Barkley is the one difference from last year....so far.
RE: RE: 2 Sacks given up, a Pick 6 against, 9 tackles for a loss  
NoGainDayne : 9/14/2018 11:55 pm : link
In comment 14075377 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 14074241 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


and basically a 2-yard avg running the ball sans the 68 yard burst.

Not to say anything about how ridiculous Flowers & Co looked on the season opening drive backing up each play and almost giving up a safety...twice.

Yeah, I though the O-line was a real positive.



Thank you for putting it so succinctly. I have been getting a lot of flak on other threads for making the same point, but really Barkley is the one difference from last year....so far.


I'm as hard on the OL as anyone but there was some time to pass most of the day. There were definitely some blunders though. No denying it was against a great D.

Good thread though. They competed against a team that almost went to the super bowl last year and has those kind of aspirations this year. Fournette was gone, yes, that helped. But Fournette being out did not help us move the ball against their defense. And we did enough of that to win the game if we could finish those drives better even with the pick 6.

No excuse for not having OBJ back there at the end but on to Dallas. If we win that i'm feeling good about the season for sure. And I think we have a decent chance to do so.
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