I've got to go to bed soon but I just want to offer a few things regarding the OL play I watched tonight. Many of you know my background and I'll do my best to keep this quick. I'm not going to get into technique or specifics. The game just ended and I'm not being paid.
I think the Giants have some real athletes across the offensive line. You've got a battle-tested LT in Solder. A promising rookie in Hernandez at LG. A good player with potential in Halapio. Omemah at RG - another new player in NY - the jury is well out. And Flowers completely flipping to the RT spot. A position he's never played in his life.
All of those guys, in the right situations and covered up by veteran players playing in offenses with longevity and cohesive game planning would be fine in a plug-and-play scenario. This team is playing these guys out of necessity and it's not pretty.
This Giants' team has the front five playing in a brand new scheme, no glue (an old term my ex-coach Ed Orgeron used to kill us with), and absolutely no confidence in each other. They don't communicate properly, they don't work together, and they're absolutely bundled by a simple gameplan.
Above all else, the OL is a singular unit. It is designed to move in absolute cohesion - contracting and expanding in unison based on the protection call, umbrella look, and down and distance. Not to mention the unified attitude that no one will hit our quarterback - and if they do, I will destroy their ability to rush on the next play.
It's not something that is pieced together like the remnant ingredients out of your pantry while you smash together a recipe for dinner. What we saw tonight was the result of not building a team from the inside-out. Some of you are surely rolling your eyes at this notion. But I will always maintain that you build your team from the inside-out. You build inside-out. (see the Patriots as example)
I love Beckham. I really do. I love Barkley. I really do. I sort of love Engram. I really do.
But the old salty part of me wishes that this Giants regime put a premium - above all skill positions - on line play. That means drafting, trading for, claiming, etc - absolute horses to protect and block. Especially if you're keeping a 37 YO QB and jettisoning your draft pick from 2017.
So here's the terrible irony of it all. And this is not a knock on drafting Barkley.
How can you draft a skill player at the RB position while completely turning over the OL with simply ONE proven Tackle in the twilight of his career - moving a failed LT to a position he's never played, installing THREE more lineman...and justifying keeping a QB with exponentially decreasing abilities to avoid pressure in the pocket? I don't care about having a running QB. But Eli - at this point - cannot even step into a throw, let alone navigate a pocket that doesn't exist.
This team. This organization. This leadership.
Is broken. And there is no end in sight.
(PS: yes, I was overly optimistic in my earlier thread. I was excited. I had faith in this team and their resilience. I was wrong. I'll admit that with no reservations.)
Thanks for reading, folks.
Horrible OL - worst in football.
Problem is Eli isn’t helping. He can’t avoid pressure, turns the ball over and is obviously shell shocked. Missed a few potential plays this week and a few last.
Depressing..
Especially the part about Eli not being able to move around in the pocket. Is that all age or is he gun shy as well?
2) Do you think it would have made a difference if the Giants played their starting O-Line in the fourth preseason game? Would it have helped them gel as a cohesive unit? Would it have helped with their communication?
In my very limited knowledge and opinion, I think more changes to this OL will only exacerbate the issues they've had.
I really hate to say this - but we've seen so many examples of QBs and their ability to initially avoid pressure up the middle but take advantage of the 3 and 5 gaps - using their legs to gain a first down from a middle, short and even 6+ distance, that Eli's inability to step, read, recognize and go is a true detriment to this team's ability to consistently move the football.
Teams KNOW that Eli isn't a threat to move the pocket or run for middle distances. They can run stunts, load a box and fan out at the snap, focus on pressure in the middle gaps.
Can you imagine having a mobile QB with the ability to expand the pocket, avoid a blitz, buy time, and manufacture more time to scan progressions?
With Odell, Shepard, Engram, and Barkley buzzing around the field as the LBs and Defensive Backfield is reading QB run?
Come on man. This game has passed us by.
Not sure if I'm overlooking anyone. The rest of the NFL has a mix on their OLs, in particular at RT. Shit, the Bengals have looked good and they're trotting out Bobby Hart (who actually played up and down but overall tolerably in a blowout victory against the Ravens).
What is it the majority of the NFL has that we don't? Two GMs now have tried drafting and signing FAs to repair the OL to no avail.
And really they have tried to draft guys for the OL, even invested a few high round picks. None of them developed, maybe Pugh when healthy. I agree that is where we need to start to build this team.
Not sure if I'm overlooking anyone. The rest of the NFL has a mix on their OLs, in particular at RT. Shit, the Bengals have looked good and they're trotting out Bobby Hart (who actually played up and down but overall tolerably in a blowout victory against the Ravens).
What is it the majority of the NFL has that we don't? Two GMs now have tried drafting and signing FAs to repair the OL to no avail.
Those teams you mention have athletic QBs with the ability to navigate pressure. They buy time and game plan with that in mind. This team has a patchwork OL and a QB with quite possibly the worst ability to navigate any semblance of a pocket and certainly no chance at extending a play.
Take a look at the Defensive Linemen these days. They are 6'5" 275 pounds and can pursue like running backs.
This isn't 2011 anymore. Even then, Eli got his ass kicked.
The best athletes on the field are defensive linemen. Build your team with that in mind.
But Eli is here now, and presumably will be here next year as well, so the question then becomes - is there any way of building a line that can protect him?
That's not going to happen. Barkley will rarely have a tunnel to run through with this line. He's making multiple moves just to avoid the first hit. The pursuit then hammers him.
I honestly feel bad for the kid.
But Eli is here now, and presumably will be here next year as well, so the question then becomes - is there any way of building a line that can protect him?
The game is gone, jcn.
I was somewhat excited by Eli's movement in the pocket last week and the playcalls that got him outside the box.
But this week. We didn't see shit. Nothing.
If you can't block. If you can't move. If you can't read. You're fucking done.
Tonight, the Giants were fucking done.
Have a nice flight. Hope you got a flat bed.
If this team can't draft a viable interior lineman what makes everyone so confident they'll unearth the next Aaron Rodgers?
If this team can't draft a viable interior lineman what makes everyone so confident they'll unearth the next Aaron Rodgers?
Did you happen to see the defense that the Broncos built before they hired the corpse of Peyton Manning?
While I agree with this - the Giants have had a hard time blocking since that 07 line went tats up. That's going across multiple personnel changes with different GMs, HCs and position coaches in charge, including both draft and FA replacements.
Doesn't that seem very unlikely, that they couldn't build one serviceable OL in all that time with all those resources spent?
But Reese/Ross sucked at drafting and signing (John Jerry, re-signing Will Beatty to a mega deal, Geoff Schwartz, etc.) players. But again, how would this OL look if the TWO #1 picks we spent on the OL were good players?
That's revisionist. This is professional football. Fix it with money, drafting, trades, and organizational intelligence.
The Giants have nothing resembling a cohesive strategy. New York isn't built for patience.
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genesis of this problem are the the Pugh, Richburg, Flowers mistakes. They blew three premium picks... 3 of the 5 OL spots. Now they are trying to play catch up.
That's revisionist. This is professional football. Fix it with money, drafting, trades, and organizational intelligence.
The Giants have nothing resembling a cohesive strategy. New York isn't built for patience.
That's what astounds me. It is clear to everyone that Ereck Flowers is not an NFL caliber offensive tackle. Trade a pick or two in the offseason and get me a serviceable lineman. Find me a vet OL somewhere. It's been six years, and they still can't find 5 guys that can get us a hole in the run game or protect the passer.
But Reese/Ross sucked at drafting and signing (John Jerry, re-signing Will Beatty to a mega deal, Geoff Schwartz, etc.) players. But again, how would this OL look if the TWO #1 picks we spent on the OL were good players?
I know - and since 2011, we've replaced a lot of parts there. Different players, different schemes, different coaches, by different GMs - and the results are still the same.
And now Richburg, Pugh and Hart are all elsewhere. The Cardinals have stunk, but Richburg and Hart are both parts of effective lines. The Vikings traded for Jones, and he's played well for them.
Is it possible that we just can't build an OL to block for Eli anymore?
I just spent a weekend with guys who won Big East championships with me back in the fuckin 90s, bowl games, and we all readily admitted that today's lineman are built differently. They move like LBs now. You can't have a traditional pocket passer. It can't be blocked down after down, despite our sensibilities as traditional Giants fans that would lead us to believe and hold on to that archaic way of thinking.
That pretty pocket doesn't exist anymore. This iteration of linemen is lost and has no chance to function as a unit. Look at Brady today. Even he was feeling it. Fuckin Bortles looked evolved as a QB.
It's a bunch of guys trying to block better, faster, and well schemed professional athletes. That shit will never end well. Eli is going to bed tonight and he knows the end is near. There's no denying it at this point.
Sorry for the drama, but this organization needs a serious wakeup call, enema, and kick in the fuckin ass.
It's revisionist in terms of linking this regime's success on the failures of Reese and co.
While they're clearly trying to purge those mistakes, they fail to address the obvious holes still plaguing this organization. It's more of the same, just different names logging into the tablets.
I just spent a weekend with guys who won Big East championships with me back in the fuckin 90s, bowl games, and we all readily admitted that today's lineman are built differently. They move like LBs now. You can't have a traditional pocket passer. It can't be blocked down after down, despite our sensibilities as traditional Giants fans that would lead us to believe and hold on to that archaic way of thinking.
That pretty pocket doesn't exist anymore. This iteration of linemen is lost and has no chance to function as a unit. Look at Brady today. Even he was feeling it. Fuckin Bortles looked evolved as a QB.
It's a bunch of guys trying to block better, faster, and well schemed professional athletes. That shit will never end well. Eli is going to bed tonight and he knows the end is near. There's no denying it at this point.
Sorry for the drama, but this organization needs a serious wakeup call, enema, and kick in the fuckin ass.
But there has to be a happy medium somewhere between clean pocket every time and jailbreak every time.
Yes, they get Bortles moving around back there, but I watched that Jags/Pats game. On 3rd and > than 5, Bortles has enough time to sit in the pocket and find Cole/Westbrook on drags multiple times. On 1st and 10, they are getting 4-7 yards with TJ Yeldon. The Giants do none of this, ergo, the Giants lost.
I saw the Jax/NE game today too - and the game plan there was in part to contain Bortles on the ground. It wasn't just that Jax has a very good OL (which they do), it's that Bortles AA makes it tough to just get after him on every play. If he doesn't get positive yardage on each one, then the lump sum he'll get every few plays would be damaging enough.
Just can't help myself bungle! Haha.
I saw the Jax/NE game today too - and the game plan there was in part to contain Bortles on the ground. It wasn't just that Jax has a very good OL (which they do), it's that Bortles AA makes it tough to just get after him on every play. If he doesn't get positive yardage on each one, then the lump sum he'll get every few plays would be damaging enough.
I get the point that at least Bortles presents a threat to run and therefore, the defense can't just pin their ears back and come blitzing forward like they can with Eli or a less mobile QB.
But, four Pats linemen were not getting in there vs. JAX. Four Cowboys linemen were getting in there vs. NYG all night tonight. Yes, the game has changed to a great degree, but when you're getting beat with four guys, I think it's game set and match.
This isn't difficult.
This isn't difficult.
B, and I get that as well. Movement in the pocket would at least change the rush lanes or something, and they did more of it last week. Why'd they stop this week? Not sure. I think Eli may have been concussed on one of those earlier sacks to be honest.
But, 11 rushes for 27 yards isn't cutting the mustard. When your star RB is making 3 guys miss to get 2 yards, you are under siege, and you are screwed. When the right side of your OL reacts to a stunt like it's a NASA space flight, you are done for. Does a more mobile QB give us a shot to move around and do some things? Yeah, but if he's dodging free rushers all night, eventually he'll be injured or turning it over too.
The fundamentals are still the fundamentals, despite how the game has changed over the last 10 years. We suck at them on both sides of the ball, tbh. Glad you're back though.
1. Hiring Gettleman
2. Hiring Shurmur
3. Opting to go forward with Eli
4. Drafting Barkley
5. Signing Beckham
Each of those was a critical decision for this franchise, with #1 being the most critical and most telling of where ownership thinks the team is.
On each of those five crucial forks in the road, the Giants chose the wrong path. There is no long term comprehensive plan for the team's direction; it only extends as far as Eli's term with the Giants. The sad irony is that that approach has ruined his career.
1. Hiring Gettleman
2. Hiring Shurmur
3. Opting to go forward with Eli
4. Drafting Barkley
5. Signing Beckham
Each of those was a critical decision for this franchise, with #1 being the most critical and most telling of where ownership thinks the team is.
On each of those five crucial forks in the road, the Giants chose the wrong path. There is no long term comprehensive plan for the team's direction; it only extends as far as Eli's term with the Giants. The sad irony is that that approach has ruined his career.
I'm not sure how you can categorically say Shurmur was a bad choice, other than he's seemed to buy into this insipid notion that Eli has anything left (frankly that seems to have been a prerequisite to get the job). There wasn't a whole host of fantastic candidates this year, although I think Nagy will turn out fine. But if you're going down the Patrica, McDaniels route it was pretty slim pickings.
1. Hiring Gettleman
2. Hiring Shurmur
3. Opting to go forward with Eli
4. Drafting Barkley
5. Signing Beckham
Well, you may have gotten #3 right, but you are probably wrong on the other 4...
Thought Hernandez might be, but he gets pushed around by nfl caliber talent. Not quite the same as UTEP, eh?
Halapio was 2nd string at best, now we're on Greco/3rd string for the foreseeable future.
Omameh has been the worst out of all of the them.
Flowers.....might be the closest thing. And that is a sad sad state.
Which, is problematic given the way front 7s are being deployed now .. And so for us... given the newness of our line.. There is a reason other teams are doing what they are on 0 to counter that...to help lines have success. It's whole concept stuff not just chip with the TE.
Get rid of him - he isnt big enough. Even though he clearly outplayed Halapio both last year and this year.
It’s unreal.
I kind of agree about Gettleman, but at some point, you have to look upstairs. Ownership has continued to make the same mistake, to think that this team is just a player or two away. That didn't start with DG. Until the Mara's commit to a total rebuild, we're going to have to live through this.
Everyone is frustrated right now, and this kind of measured response is really refreshing to read.
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is the fact that they're a threat to run means that the D can't just pin their ears back and get after them on every play.
I saw the Jax/NE game today too - and the game plan there was in part to contain Bortles on the ground. It wasn't just that Jax has a very good OL (which they do), it's that Bortles AA makes it tough to just get after him on every play. If he doesn't get positive yardage on each one, then the lump sum he'll get every few plays would be damaging enough.
I get the point that at least Bortles presents a threat to run and therefore, the defense can't just pin their ears back and come blitzing forward like they can with Eli or a less mobile QB.
But, four Pats linemen were not getting in there vs. JAX. Four Cowboys linemen were getting in there vs. NYG all night tonight. Yes, the game has changed to a great degree, but when you're getting beat with four guys, I think it's game set and match.
This is untrue though - the Cowboys did need to blitz, and they did.
A big part of the problem was that when they did blitz, we never managed to make a completion to make them pay, so they were free to do so at will. That's something that a younger Eli would do even when defenses brought the house.
Bisnowaty, Hart, Herman, Mosley, McCants, Brewer, Petrus, Koets.
I mean, you have to hit on SOMEONE in the back end of the draft at some point, and we basically missed for bout 10 years. The cupboard is bare and that's what we're looking at at this point.
Bisnowaty, Hart, Herman, Mosley, McCants, Brewer, Petrus, Koets.
I mean, you have to hit on SOMEONE in the back end of the draft at some point, and we basically missed for bout 10 years. The cupboard is bare and that's what we're looking at at this point.
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Tried for years to bring in good offensive linemen and failed horribly. Not only the premium picks (Pugh, Richburg, etc) but also how many later round picks over the years?
Bisnowaty, Hart, Herman, Mosley, McCants, Brewer, Petrus, Koets.
I mean, you have to hit on SOMEONE in the back end of the draft at some point, and we basically missed for bout 10 years. The cupboard is bare and that's what we're looking at at this point.
rebuilding the offensive line was clearly not a strong suit. on top of the examples you list above, there is flowers (who is entering cedric jones bust territory) and the free agent misses (Schwartz being the biggest one). Contrast to 2000 when the giants signed veterans lomas brown, dusty zeigler and glenn parker and in a single offseason their offense became a force.
Exactly. Those signings were not big budget ones either. And they hit on Diehl and later Seubert, with Snee was the basis for that offensive line for years. But after Reese came on, they just had some really poor talent evaluations and free agent decisions.