I think that even the most optimistic posters here realized that with the cap situation, the complete lack of talent on the inherited roster, and the negative internal dynamics that this wasn't going to be a one year magic fix.
With that said, I think the general consensus going into the season was that this was going to be a better team than last year- maybe a 6 win team- not a playoff team, but a better team.
Gettleman did make some good draft picks, let a LOT of last year's roster walk, but didn't bring in a lot of long term FA.
What if the plan was always to be really bad this season?
Stay with me for a moment. Look at the FA haul- only 6 guys got multi-year deals, but Solder got the only deal that can't be cut without much consequence after this season.
Look at the off-season and end of pre-season cuts. The Giants dropped almost 60% of the roster from last year without any long-term replacements.
Look at the draft- after the draft was over, Saquon was clearly the go-to RB and Hernandez was a day-1 starter. After that, a lot of guys who most thought would need time to develop. BJ Hill surprised us all and was ready day 1. Carter still looks like he is in development, so is Lauletta.
The Giants were well aware of McIntosh's health issue- but drafted him anyway, probably with the full understanding that he would not play this season.
So, ask yourself in all due seriousness- what kind of team and front office drops the majority of their roster, brings in a small number of meaningful FA- with all but one droppable after a single season- and uses at least 2 of only 6 picks on guys who are not likely to see the field this season?
A team that isn't planning on being good.
They picked up some guys who if they got lucky and caught lightening in a bottle, might overachieve, but in reality, were nothing more that stop-gap roster filler.
Why would Gettleman do that?
In order to completely rebuild, it will take several years of high picks and clearing the roster of contracts that won't be productive in 3 or 4 years.
After last season, it became abundantly clear that getting rid of Eli on anything less than Eli's terms would be a PR debacle. In addition, the front office and ownership likely concluded that the fans would not accept a complete rebuild, even after last season's disaster. Thus, the need to have a team that the front office could argue was moving forward, but in reality, was a paper tiger.
This coming offseason will be a purge.
If the above is correct, and the team loses 11-12+ games again, no one on the roster will be safe- except Saquan, OBJ and Solder- because it would cost too much to cut them.
That in turn, allows the front office to drop Eli- and there will be less outcry after two horrendous seasons. They would also likely drop or trade: Vernon, Jenkins, Ogletree, Omameh, and any number of vets who aren't performing. In addition, there will be less of an outcry is Collins is told he won't be back.
Why do that?
Because it literally eliminates every meaningful vet voice on the team except for OBJ. Barkley is too young to have much influence. Solder probably would have some pull with the OL, but not over the team as a whole- and is a short termer with the team anyway.
In essence, the Giants would begin a rebuild around two players- Barkley and OBJ. Both are young enough that 3 years from now, they are still stars, though a little longer in the tooth.
The front office and coaching staff get to rebuild the team with their own selected leaders, while building a ton of cap space over the next two years and getting several top 5 picks. Remember, by just dropping Eli, Vernon, Jenkins and Ogletree, the Giants can clear about $43M in cap room, though there will be a dead money hit. However, when rebuilding, the dead money can be useful, as it shows up as cap space the season after.
Thus, by clearing $43M in cap space (in addition to the about $23M they already have next year, plus about $1M in dead money from this season), the Giants would have a huge amount to spend in FA- just over $65M. However, that would also entail a dead money pool of about $26.5M.
On the other hand, that becomes cap space the season after next.
Does this sound tin-foil hattish? It might, but I think that this MIGHT have been the plan all along. Gettleman has been around long enough to know how to sell lipstick on a pig and call this a competitive team, when he knows better.
We have a lot of people talking about how drafting Saquon was a mistake today. I don't think it was a mistake at all. There is nothing wrong with getting a franchise RB today and getting a QB next year. Is it the norm? No. But you don't pass on a HOF talent. The way to get back to championship football is to get the supreme talent as often as possible wherever possible. The QB will come, and they are still making them.
Again, this was never going to be a 1-year turnaround.
And I'm a huge fan of his - but if we don't have the QB of the future on the roster now, and we plan on completely overhauling the team - what are the chances we'd have an offense that could leverage a weapon like OBJ before his time runs out?
Slim to none.
I think you're giving them more credit than they're due.
If they felt Darnold was the long term answer (and he might have been). Oh wait, since we’re totally evaluating the season in 2 games, Darnold is tge goods. So is Fitzpatrick..Even Eli almost threw for 300 yards. :)
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If the plan was failure they likely would have taken Darnold at #2. Let him sit for a year until the offensive line was settled next offseason.
If they felt Darnold was the long term answer (and he might have been). Oh wait, since we’re totally evaluating the season in 2 games, Darnold is tge goods. So is Fitzpatrick..Even Eli almost threw for 300 yards. :)
Do you really think this is only 2 games? 3-16 over the last 19 and 35 straight games under 30 points. On a broader scale, this has been one of the worst teams in the NFL since the second half of 2012. How can you seriously make a 2 game argument when this is more of the same? This isn’t 2 games, this is a complete organizational failure of continually taking a band aid approach over a complete overhaul.
But ultimately I think Gettleman understands that the Giants are a multi year rebuild and is trying to see if they can remain competitive along the way.
There are several signs that show this in how he's approached this roster
- Clear purge of the Reese signings from the big ticket guys like JPP through the lower level guys who fill out the bottom of the roster. 1 week before the season starts, they made 6 or 7 waiver claims or whatever. That tells you everything you need to know what the organization thinks of the depth on this roster.
- Using the 3rd rounder supplemental on Sam Beal. The injury was unfortunate, but if you recall Gettleman said "we got our next year's 3rd rounder now".
- Saquon vs. Darnold. This is the whole debate, and it's worthwhile. I said on BBI many times, my preference was to go with the QB in a rebuild. Let them learn behind Eli this year and be in position to start either later in the year or next year. Pat Mahomes is the example of exactly what I wanted. However...and a big however. Taking a QB that high in the draft, if you miss, can kill a franchise for 4+ years. All reports are that Saquon was a near perfect prospect. The best player in the draft. At the end of the day, if Mayfield or Darnold were another Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck, it's an easy decision. But the scouts were all mixed on these guys. Saquon was the safe pick in the package of potentially being the best RB in the NFL the next 5 years. If you are looking at a multi year rebuild, you need to measure risk vs. reward. The risk of blowing the #2 pick on a QB when there is a sure thing at a skill position made the Saquon pick understandable and defensible.
- Don't discount the Giants hiring of Shurmur and that he took a journeyman in Keenum and got him to the NFC Championship game. The Giants organization might feel that they can find their QB by giving him someone to develop. Lauletta was the start. Webb was a Reese/McAdoo guy, and thus had an uphill battle. The Giants wanted to squeeze one more year out of Eli, maybe two.
If you go back to Tom Coughlin's first year with the Giants, remember, they finished 6-10. He had to wipe the stink off of the end of the Fassel era. The Giants were able to grab Eli and let him learn under Warner. Ironically, it was when Warner was getting sacked a ton of times that the Giants went to Eli and essentially gave up on a 5-4 start. Now, it's Eli's turn taking all the sacks, but there is no one to give the ball to.
Shurmur needs to wipe the stink of McAdoo/Reese off this team, and it wasn't going to happen in 2 games. Not with a whole new offense and new defense. We need to be realistic. 3-13 was not an aberration. It was a culmination of a decaying roster. I had hoped this team was going to get it together and compete for a wild card as an 8-8 or 9-7 best case. I see a 5-11 team. Better than last year, and one that maybe will start to have things click later in the season.
Failure wasn't the plan, it was the reality.
We're leading the league in wishful thinking.
Gettleman churned the roster, but did he bring in anyone good? Omameh is terrible. Solder's not much better. Hernandez is a rookie but is practically a first rounder and one could argue his start is every bit as bad as Flowers. He had one decent OL, Brett Jones, on a fair contract and he traded him away - to offset money spent on a burnt Jonathan Stewart.
I don't disagree that the Giants might have been a multi-year rebuild, but how anyone can take these two games and see any glimmer of hope that Gettleman was the guy to lead it is beyond me.
I wouldn't be shocked if Eli retires/cut at the end of the year. It is much more financially beneficial for the team than had it been this year. This season is a lot like 2004 except while there's no QB, the Giants have all of their high picks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember plenty of fresh faces coming into camp that year including the late great Norman Hand
Matt's points are good- and generally does a better job of explaining mine than I did.
I think this off-season's focus in FA will be the right side of the OL and DBs. I think the draft focus will be on a potential franchise QB- if there is one- and pass rushers.
Even with all that, this still is not likely to be a playoff team, but with the above, the skill players would all be in place, and building depth and rotational skill players would be the focus going forward.
It might take the coming off-season and the off-season after that, but they are closer now than they were in February- its just going to take a really bad season or two to get this moving forward.
If you stop and think about it for a moment, I think Gettleman is actually using the LA Rams model for building a team.
Few rosters get turned over properly in one offeason, the NYG roster looked to be in need of at least two offseasons and a big talent infusion on both sides of the ball, if you understand what you're seeing in terms of talent.
This is definitely not true. There were a lot of people who thought we would contend.
That they did none of those shouldn't have been shocking considering they hired a 67 year old GM with deep ties to the old way of doing things.
Cowboys had a hot start, but you can't tell me they were above and beyond a much better roster and team than us last night.
I *think* we are better than last year, but how much is the question. As Matt said, probably not much.
That they did none of those shouldn't have been shocking considering they hired a 67 year old GM with deep ties to the old way of doing things.
DG: “Eli is the reason I have 2 rings on my hand.” He said that repeatedly. Alarming.
The irony in all of this is that Eli will end up being the fall guy.
I wouldn't be shocked if Eli retires/cut at the end of the year. It is much more financially beneficial for the team than had it been this year. This season is a lot like 2004 except while there's no QB, the Giants have all of their high picks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember plenty of fresh faces coming into camp that year including the late great Norman Hand
That's a great point about the picks for next year Larry. Going into 2005, the Giants traded the picks to get Eli. That gives the Giants more added flexibility if they have a bad season.
And what can help the Giants, if they do want to go QB next year, they could be in position to get Stidham from Auburn since 3 of the teams who might all be bad teams and worse than the Giants, won't go QB (Lions- Stafford, Bills- Allen, and Cardinals- Rosen).
My gut is this Giants team will start to get it together as the season moves along. There is too much talent there that they will break out at some point, even if it's for a game or two. They will probably shock someone along the way with a win that we didn't expect. I see a repeat of Coughlin's 2004, maybe 6-10 or 5-11. That would put them drafting in the top 5-6 and with a shot at a Stidham without having to trade down. Going QB at #6 is different than going QB at #2 with a prospect like Barkley staring them in the face.
You don’t have to buy it at all. I trust DG and Shurmur and not BBI. If the QB guru didn’t feel Darnold or others were the long term answer, than I believe them more than I trust your opinion or my opinion. We don’t know what Mara was or was not thinking, though it’s speculated upon often here based on a few quotes here and there.
Me too. Listen buddy, All you guys could be right. I just believe, we’re all very disappointed/pissed at the moment, But 2 games really is not fair, imo..
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the flashlight in a the darkness.
I wouldn't be shocked if Eli retires/cut at the end of the year. It is much more financially beneficial for the team than had it been this year. This season is a lot like 2004 except while there's no QB, the Giants have all of their high picks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember plenty of fresh faces coming into camp that year including the late great Norman Hand
That's a great point about the picks for next year Larry. Going into 2005, the Giants traded the picks to get Eli. That gives the Giants more added flexibility if they have a bad season.
And what can help the Giants, if they do want to go QB next year, they could be in position to get Stidham from Auburn since 3 of the teams who might all be bad teams and worse than the Giants, won't go QB (Lions- Stafford, Bills- Allen, and Cardinals- Rosen).
My gut is this Giants team will start to get it together as the season moves along. There is too much talent there that they will break out at some point, even if it's for a game or two. They will probably shock someone along the way with a win that we didn't expect. I see a repeat of Coughlin's 2004, maybe 6-10 or 5-11. That would put them drafting in the top 5-6 and with a shot at a Stidham without having to trade down. Going QB at #6 is different than going QB at #2 with a prospect like Barkley staring them in the face.
Also think about this, The 2004 Giants had no offensive line and the only top shelf skill players were Tiki Barber and Shockey. Tiki was a fumbling machine at that point until Coughlin and Ingram worked with him and Shockey never lived up to his full potential. Toomer was not a WR who could take the top off a defense.
It wasn't until they brought in Plax and had the 2005 & 2007 drafts that the team took on Coughlin's identity. IMHO this year's draft was a huge step forward to get the kind of players in (at least on paper) to build the roster PS is looking for. I don't know college ball, but I think they want to have a plug and play system where the skill players are top shelf and the new QB has a solid O-line. Unfortunately Eli is the one who is taking the lumps
I never trusted McAdoo. Reese won 2 SBs in his first 4 yearsand no, I don’t buy into this BS that he LARGELY WON because of EA’s players. Reese’s draft in 2007 largely contributedto our SB. So yes, Reese won some equity with me UNTIL it became apparentaround 2012/2013 that he was slipping. Shurmur? I endorsed his PC with Minny, that’s what I was excited about. Belichick and Pete Carroll didn’t become who they are in their first go-arounds.
And btw? With that shitty management in Cleveland, Shurmur did better than most of the Browns’ HCs save for their 10-6 record 10-12(?) years ago.
Quote:
the flashlight in a the darkness.
I wouldn't be shocked if Eli retires/cut at the end of the year. It is much more financially beneficial for the team than had it been this year. This season is a lot like 2004 except while there's no QB, the Giants have all of their high picks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember plenty of fresh faces coming into camp that year including the late great Norman Hand
That's a great point about the picks for next year Larry. Going into 2005, the Giants traded the picks to get Eli. That gives the Giants more added flexibility if they have a bad season.
And what can help the Giants, if they do want to go QB next year, they could be in position to get Stidham from Auburn since 3 of the teams who might all be bad teams and worse than the Giants, won't go QB (Lions- Stafford, Bills- Allen, and Cardinals- Rosen).
My gut is this Giants team will start to get it together as the season moves along. There is too much talent there that they will break out at some point, even if it's for a game or two. They will probably shock someone along the way with a win that we didn't expect. I see a repeat of Coughlin's 2004, maybe 6-10 or 5-11. That would put them drafting in the top 5-6 and with a shot at a Stidham without having to trade down. Going QB at #6 is different than going QB at #2 with a prospect like Barkley staring them in the face.
I hope not because, and this is just my opinion, I don't see an NFL franchise QB in Stidham. However, if we are drafting 5 or 6, I do think we will have some good QB's available. And frankly, drafting 5 or 6 might be optimistic.
But ultimately I think Gettleman understands that the Giants are a multi year rebuild and is trying to see if they can remain competitive along the way.
There are several signs that show this in how he's approached this roster
- Clear purge of the Reese signings from the big ticket guys like JPP through the lower level guys who fill out the bottom of the roster. 1 week before the season starts, they made 6 or 7 waiver claims or whatever. That tells you everything you need to know what the organization thinks of the depth on this roster.
- Using the 3rd rounder supplemental on Sam Beal. The injury was unfortunate, but if you recall Gettleman said "we got our next year's 3rd rounder now".
- Saquon vs. Darnold. This is the whole debate, and it's worthwhile. I said on BBI many times, my preference was to go with the QB in a rebuild. Let them learn behind Eli this year and be in position to start either later in the year or next year. Pat Mahomes is the example of exactly what I wanted. However...and a big however. Taking a QB that high in the draft, if you miss, can kill a franchise for 4+ years. All reports are that Saquon was a near perfect prospect. The best player in the draft. At the end of the day, if Mayfield or Darnold were another Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck, it's an easy decision. But the scouts were all mixed on these guys. Saquon was the safe pick in the package of potentially being the best RB in the NFL the next 5 years. If you are looking at a multi year rebuild, you need to measure risk vs. reward. The risk of blowing the #2 pick on a QB when there is a sure thing at a skill position made the Saquon pick understandable and defensible.
- Don't discount the Giants hiring of Shurmur and that he took a journeyman in Keenum and got him to the NFC Championship game. The Giants organization might feel that they can find their QB by giving him someone to develop. Lauletta was the start. Webb was a Reese/McAdoo guy, and thus had an uphill battle. The Giants wanted to squeeze one more year out of Eli, maybe two.
If you go back to Tom Coughlin's first year with the Giants, remember, they finished 6-10. He had to wipe the stink off of the end of the Fassel era. The Giants were able to grab Eli and let him learn under Warner. Ironically, it was when Warner was getting sacked a ton of times that the Giants went to Eli and essentially gave up on a 5-4 start. Now, it's Eli's turn taking all the sacks, but there is no one to give the ball to.
Shurmur needs to wipe the stink of McAdoo/Reese off this team, and it wasn't going to happen in 2 games. Not with a whole new offense and new defense. We need to be realistic. 3-13 was not an aberration. It was a culmination of a decaying roster. I had hoped this team was going to get it together and compete for a wild card as an 8-8 or 9-7 best case. I see a 5-11 team. Better than last year, and one that maybe will start to have things click later in the season.
Failure wasn't the plan, it was the reality.
And that's why Gettlemen and ownership were so appreciative to have "An adult in the room". Someone who understood this. That's why Shurmur got the job....
But ultimately I think Gettleman understands that the Giants are a multi year rebuild and is trying to see if they can remain competitive along the way. ...
Thanks, Matt.
Drop back QBs are pretty much dinosaurs - extinct. Look at the QBs people rave about - Mahommes, Watson, Wilson, etc...all quick on their feet, all good at throws on the run and yet all with different arm strengths. Why did Mayfield go 1st over the more conventional and "safer" Darnold or Rosen? He is accurate on the run and less of a sitting target and was probably more NFL ready than Darnold. Probably why Lauletta was kept over the stronger armed more drop back style Webb.
I agree with basically what rich in DC said, not that failure was planned - just acceptable. 4 to 6 wins gets them top 10 picks. 4 wins probably top 5.
I also think owners are tired of paying mediocre QBs well over $25 mill per. Think of some of the recently signed FA QBs and if you think they are worth that much..