This goes beyond the who Barkley over a QB in this draft, which has been beaten to death.
He traded a 4th round pick in this past draft for Ogletree and his enormous contract. Does anyone here think he is worth that contract so far?
He significantly misevaluated and severely overpaid Omameh.
He drafted McIntosh who won't play all year due to a health issue which they claim they were aware of, when we are supposed to be trying to "win now"
He traded next years 3rd rounder for Beal who had a known shoulder issue and is out for the year.
Johnathan Stewart....
Let me reach here sean. You wanted Darnold. Am I even close to being right? 😎
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I see no long term plan.
Let me reach here sean. You wanted Darnold. Am I even close to being right? 😎
2 games? 3-16 over the last 19, 35 straight games under 30 points. Since the second half of 2012 one of the worst record in football. DG was more of the same, not a change. Tell us again how it’s onmy 2 games.
And the comment that part of the reason he drafted Barkely was because Stewart hasn't lost anything is deeply concerning.
Not to mention his open mocking of the use of analytics in football or the concept of positional value.
The guy was out of football for 2 years...did he even get a sniff from any other team?
Yes, I'm deeply concerned about putting the fate of the franchise in Gettleman's hands.
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I see no long term plan.
Let me reach here sean. You wanted Darnold. Am I even close to being right? 😎
Barkley is fun to watch and a no doubt a helluva talent. But if we are going to stumble through a 7-9 season, it is very hard to watch this with a 37 year old QB in the twilight of his career.
It would be much more tolerable if we had a rookie QB going through growing pains. The moves DG made put pressure on to win this year.
You're evaluating DG based on things that happened here when he worked for another franchise? That seems well beyond dumb.
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In comment 14080787 Sean said:
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I see no long term plan.
Let me reach here sean. You wanted Darnold. Am I even close to being right? 😎
Barkley is fun to watch and a no doubt a helluva talent. But if we are going to stumble through a 7-9 season, it is very hard to watch this with a 37 year old QB in the twilight of his career.
It would be much more tolerable if we had a rookie QB going through growing pains. The moves DG made put pressure on to win this year.
In my dreams we're 7-9
The coaching staff was completely unprepared and outmatched by the Cowboys yesterday.
I'm tired of watching it.
Barkley is a great player and I feel bad even saying anything as his effort is amazing, but you have to take a QB there. Eli is done and has been for a few years now. I know all about the line, but he also can't move and does not seem to be able to read defenses.
Last night was as upset as I have ever been as a giant fan.
who was terrible in Cleveland
reminder Shurmur is calling the plays on Offense and as I recalled McAdoo was raked over the coals on BBI for doing the same
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In comment 14080787 Sean said:
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I see no long term plan.
Let me reach here sean. You wanted Darnold. Am I even close to being right? 😎
Barkley is fun to watch and a no doubt a helluva talent. But if we are going to stumble through a 7-9 season, it is very hard to watch this with a 37 year old QB in the twilight of his career.
It would be much more tolerable if we had a rookie QB going through growing pains. The moves DG made put pressure on to win this year.
I certainly don’t know, but let’s not forget or give up on Lauletta
Yup. Time to move out of the stone age and get a young staff and fresh plan.
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In comment 14080787 Sean said:
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I see no long term plan.
Let me reach here sean. You wanted Darnold. Am I even close to being right? 😎
2 games? 3-16 over the last 19, 35 straight games under 30 points. Since the second half of 2012 one of the worst record in football. DG was more of the same, not a change. Tell us again how it’s onmy 2 games.
Lax, come on. The past records under a completely different regime means squat and shows no tendencies whatsoever, aside from the fact that we started 0-2.
Couldn't have been more on the money.
Something that many of the QB-now-or-bust posters miss the larger picture. The OL is a shambles- no one can win behind that line. The OL was terrible at the time of the draft and is now.
Many a talented young QB has had their career short-circuited behind a bad line and suffered long-term for it. Eli is a vet and unlike a rookie, will usually recognize the coverage and try to audible to something useful.
But, what I think a lot of the "draft a QB, any QB" group miss is that if Eli gets hurt or gets so beat up that he calls it a career, that has no long term impact on the franchise. It would just be the end of a borderline HOF QB's career.
On the other hand, if a rookie QB takes 60-70 sacks and ends up gun-shy the rest of his career, you have set the franchise back years trying to find another QB while rebuilding the OL.
The Giants have one building block in Hernandez. They MIGHT have one in Halapio. Solder will at least be functional for 2 years. The rest of the OL probably gets addressed this off-season in FA and the draft.
It is only when you have a functional, league average OL that you can draft a rookie or put an inexperienced QB (Lauletta) back there.
Thus, the Giants did the correct thing- they got the star RB- one who excels in several aspects- receiving, running and blocking. He may or may not help Eli this season, but that isn't his fault. A RB is used to being hit- in fact, it is part of the job description. His career won't be hurt by teams loading 8 guys in the box and madly rushing in. In fact, he might break one or two runs a game to keep them honest and off the QB.
Put all that together, with this terrible OL and less-than-average team, and you have a top 5 pick in 2019. THAT is when you draft your QB.
When the new QB comes in, whomever he may be, he will have a rebuilt OL, a star RB, a star WR, a pretty good pass-catching TE and a decent slot WR.
I'm sorry the QB or bust group can't see the reality of this, but put down the draft guides and online hyperbole, and that is why the Giants made the right move in the draft.
He traded next years 3rd rounder for Beal who had a known shoulder issue and is out for the year.
The GM's job is to build a team. A strong team. Hopefully trying to get the best out of today while having the team continually strong in the future.
Those two moves should start to chip away at the overused narrative of "win now", but instead they are used as examples of bad moves? I don't get it.When the Cowboys drafted Jaylin Smith, people gushed over the future potential, and I'm pretty sure they don't look at things as a rebuild. Teams don't. They look at things as a fluid construction of the team.
Winnable? With their season on the line at home? My ass. Houston might shut the NYG out.
I just explained to you why your opinion is a mistake. Look above.
Watson is going to have a field day with Will Fuller and DeAndre Hopkins next week.
Over/under for sacks by JJ Watt...3.5
And if that’s the case and the organization were to decide to move on from Eli in the meantime, I would rather take a chance on a veteran stop gap than draft a QB high next year
I agree 100% and have been trying to get this point across for years now. This 'win now' approach by ownership has crippled the franchise for 6 years and at this point will take at least 3 more years to recover from, assuming they buy into a full rebuild.
I believe ownership is too involved in the on-field decision-making process. I think one reason Reese was retained for longer than he should have been was bc he willingly took the heat for many personal decisions that were pushed by ownership. I'm afraid Gettleman was hired under a similar premise.
Agree 100%... Gotta give DG another offseason to rebuild the roster
Pugh with Patrick Omameh
Darkwa with Jonathan Stewart
Rodgers-Cromartie with BW Webb
Andrew Adams with Curtis Riley
Made Nate Solder the highest paid OT, he's been average, at best and Ereck Flowers is still starting.
Want to question the decision to stick with Eli? Fine. But citing trading a 4th round pick for Ogletree as a bad decision doesn’t make sense.
He also traded over the hill JPP and his bloated contract for the pick that turned into BJ Hill.
I’d say those moves show Gettleman hasn’t lost his fastball.
Let’s see what the OL looks like on opening day 2019. It was always a 2 year rebuild.
But lets also understand that the entire line is basically a new unit. All 5 starters are either new players or have switched positions or both. Omameh was playing LG last year, Flowers LT, Halapio was a back up OG, not a starting Center. Hernandez is a rookie and Solder is the best of the bunch.
Add to that a new offense with new terminology and you are getting what we are seeing. Add to the fact that skill players are lining up in the wrong spot then the play gets in late and Eli doesn't have enough time to change protections.
These problems have little to do with DG. He needed to hire a new coach, revamp the roster and specifically the O Line. It will take time to jell.
Wow.
His moves suggest he didn’t even believe that about the roster
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a huge mistake.
I just explained to you why your opinion is a mistake. Look above.
No, because the QB would not have had to start this season. Also if the QB had been Darnold or Allen, they would have been far more mobile than Manning. The line stinks, but Manning can’t move.
Winnable game? Giants are gettibg seven and I think that is generous. Texas should be favored by ten.
After last night, I have zero confidence the Giants can go on the road and beat anyone.
Maybe Rutgers.
But lets also understand that the entire line is basically a new unit. All 5 starters are either new players or have switched positions or both. Omameh was playing LG last year, Flowers LT, Halapio was a back up OG, not a starting Center. Hernandez is a rookie and Solder is the best of the bunch.
Add to that a new offense with new terminology and you are getting what we are seeing. Add to the fact that skill players are lining up in the wrong spot then the play gets in late and Eli doesn't have enough time to change protections.
These problems have little to do with DG. He needed to hire a new coach, revamp the roster and specifically the O Line. It will take time to jell.
Excuses, they are pros and must play. Also, mental errors are one thing, but they get whipped up front on power runs too. Just physically dominated. This has been going on for years and shows no signs of stopping.
Tucker Fredrickson might have been worse and others
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and moaning after 2 games. There's a winnable game in Houston on Sunday. I'm fairly certain Shurmur and Gettleman are concerned about that.
Winnable? With their season on the line at home? My ass. Houston might shut the NYG out.
And you know they’re going to play this game as they’re super bowl because I believe they are on a 8 game losing streak ..... watch out
At Houston - Watt, Merciless, Clowney...makes Dallas look tame
New Orleans
At Carolina
Eagles - With Wenz
At Atlanta
Redskins
In comment 14080817 Sean said:
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In comment 14080787 Sean said:
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I see no long term plan.
Let me reach here sean. You wanted Darnold. Am I even close to being right? 😎
Barkley is fun to watch and a no doubt a helluva talent. But if we are going to stumble through a 7-9 season, it is very hard to watch this with a 37 year old QB in the twilight of his career.
It would be much more tolerable if we had a rookie QB going through growing pains. The moves DG made put pressure on to win this year.
This guy has fuct this team up more than any other owner in the Nfl has, lately. Tell me I’m wrong. Please.
I don’t even know what I’m looking at anymore. Is it Eli is it not Eli who the fuck knows. All I know is for years we asked if Dave Brown was the problem or what was Kerry Collins really capable of and where did that leave us? Lost in the woods.
When you’re asking questions about the qb time and time again, the qb is the problem.
The Darnold crowd will be insidious the entire year and we'll be forced into listening about how great he is, will be, could be, should be for the Giants.
Without an Oline, he would be David Carr all over getting pounded until he would be terminally gun shy.
Until the line is fixed drafting a QB is wasting a draft choice.
It's just been a disaster.
The Darnold crowd will be insidious the entire year and we'll be forced into listening about how great he is, will be, could be, should be for the Giants.
Without an Oline, he would be David Carr all over getting pounded until he would be terminally gun shy.
Until the line is fixed drafting a QB is wasting a draft choice.
Without an OL, he could just as easily have redshirted this year while Eli got his farewell tour, and this abortion of a season would generate another round of high draft picks that could be plied into the OL, along with the money saved from not having Eli around in 19.
Instead - we're going into next year hoping to find a QB somewhere. Awesome.
Wow.
Certainly glad a lot of these fans aren't on any of my coaching staffs..............
It's just been a disaster.
yup. unmitigated disaster.
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is astounding. If anybody thought that this team was going to do anything this year, they should be concerned for themselves, not Gettleman.
The Darnold crowd will be insidious the entire year and we'll be forced into listening about how great he is, will be, could be, should be for the Giants.
Without an Oline, he would be David Carr all over getting pounded until he would be terminally gun shy.
Until the line is fixed drafting a QB is wasting a draft choice.
Without an OL, he could just as easily have redshirted this year while Eli got his farewell tour, and this abortion of a season would generate another round of high draft picks that could be plied into the OL, along with the money saved from not having Eli around in 19.
Instead - we're going into next year hoping to find a QB somewhere. Awesome.
That is the dilemma every draft. Sorry. I did not want Darnold. Would have wanted Rosen or Mayfield before Darnold if taking a QB. I'm happy with Barkley.
But it is still lunacy to be two games in and the entire front office, draft picks and organization is being called out.
Again, this team was doing nothing this year with that line even with Solder..if you hitched your horse to that wagon of course you would be angry. My pick was 6-10 at best...
All you basically accomplish is taking an older, immobile QB and subject him to an unholy beating.
And it didn't have to be Darnold - it could have been Rosen or Allen, basically anyone but Mayfield. We opted instead to draft Barkley and hope that next year is better.
Same bad OL, now minus a playmaker at RB. So you have Eli or a rookie under C. If the OL is what's the major issue, anything short of fixing it through this past draft was likely having the same outcome.
This is what happens when you have a decade of poor drafts
Best case, we have a highly touted QB on the bench watching Eli get the snot knocked out of him. Worst case the rookie QB gets in and gets pounded.
Same bad OL, now minus a playmaker at RB. So you have Eli or a rookie under C. If the OL is what's the major issue, anything short of fixing it through this past draft was likely having the same outcome.
This is what happens when you have a decade of poor drafts
Best case, we have a highly touted QB on the bench watching Eli get the snot knocked out of him. Worst case the rookie QB gets in and gets pounded.
It's not just drafting the QB. It's understanding that Eli + this OL does not compute. Perhaps with a more athletic young QB the offense could be run differently to allow for more pass protection techniques - someone smarter than me would have to outline how that would work.
But there were other things that should have been done if the conviction was to keep Eli. More, much more, should have been done to address the OL. Instead of drafting a RB and paying a WR, perhaps those resources could have been thrown at the OL. We could have drafted Nelson in round 1, Hernandez in round 2, and traded Beckham for a pick that could have been used on one of the three first round OTs. And/or perhaps Beckham's money could have gone to Norwell. Yeah that might be overkill on the offensive line, but it would have been a better approach than to put Eli behind this current disaster.
If the conviction from the front office is that Eli is the guy going forward, fine...then use every possible resource to build the offensive line. We know based on the last several years that that is more valuable to Eli's success than any offensive skill player.
But what was done this offseason was a half assed disaster.
If you put the resources towards an OL, you then have a young QB, no playmaker at WR and mediocre RB's. Not sure how that's better than today - just different.
If you draft a RB and struggle, people say a QB should've been taken. If you draft a QB, people would say we'd waste him or threaten his psyche by playing him behind a poor OL.
But the way the league and the cap are structured, it is really difficult to improve an entire unit, UNLESS every signing/pick is a hit.
I haven't seen evidence of improvement, but after only 2 games, we might get lucky and see this line can come together.
But no matter what people believe about constructing a team, trying to overcome a decade of bad drafts is damn hard to do. And the liklihood is that any path is going to seemingly suck in Year 1.
Difference is that was with an established staff and team. This is a brand new staff and team so I’m less disappointed this year than last. But that’s just me. I’m giving new ownership two years, not two games...
Eli should have been the QB in 2018 regardless of who we picked.
I can understand not wanting to pick a QB if you do not think the position is as valuable going forward as it has been historically or if you don't think any of the QBs are going to be that good. But I'm skeptical of the idea that none of the three top ten QBs that were available at #2 are going to be Pro Bowl caliber players. I could be wrong, of course (and I didn't watch much of any of them in college, so I'm not basing that off of my own judgement of each).
But the approach that was taken by the front office was a half measure that was marked by a fundamental contradiction: they wanted to stick with Eli while entering the season with massive questions on the offensive line. That was never going to work...and it's negatively impacting not only Eli, but our massive investments in Barkley and Beckham.
It's like the front office never gamed out how this was likely to play out.
If you were the GM this year, what would have done differently to improve the Oline for 2018? I'm out of answers.
- They flipped JPP for a draft pick, eating salary this year to make things better next year
- They signed a T and a G
- They drafted the top player in the draft to give us another playmaker
- They actually brought in veteran LB's
- They traded a backup OL to gain cap $$$
- They massively overpaid for a declining RB
- They rid the locker room of a lot of the trouble makers who existed prior
We can argue on the effectiveness of these moves, especially the Stewart signing and if the OL guys were the right players, but I don't know how it can be called a half-measure. And like I said above, if they had done what you've proposed and cut Eli, traded Beckham and used those assets for the OL, there's no evidence to suggest that improves the team now or in the long run, especially since the FA OL out there this year were underwhelming.
This was a pretty robust house cleaning, but again - overcoming so many poor drafts means making a lot of moves and having them all be right. People are enamored with Mahomes right now, but the guy had an ideal situation of sitting for a year to learn, and then playing on a team with a top OL, a top TE, a playmaking WR and a top RB. We can see exactly what happens when you have playmakers and a shit OL. But as we've seen with Dallas, you can have a great OL and lack a top D and it takes you nowhere either.
Same bad OL, now minus a playmaker at RB. So you have Eli or a rookie under C. If the OL is what's the major issue, anything short of fixing it through this past draft was likely having the same outcome.
This is what happens when you have a decade of poor drafts
Best case, we have a highly touted QB on the bench watching Eli get the snot knocked out of him. Worst case the rookie QB gets in and gets pounded.
Or the third option the Giants employed the last time around: sign a placeholder veteran to keep the seat warm and stress test the o-line before easing the rookie in.
Moving Manning or letting go and choose his destination would have been a lot better than throwing him out there for this.
The Giants even as it stands aren't heavily invested on their oline. Only 5 teams are spending less on their oline this year.
That goes up next year when Solder starts costing a lot. But the Giants have comically found a way to overpay and under allocate to their line.
And then everyone was so enraptured by Gettleman's NY schtick and how he played to the media. And all of his "old school" theories. Gee, how refreshing. That wins games.
Gettleman was like comfort food for Mara. Just stories and laughs about the good old days.
What a series of events the last nine months...
(1) Keep Eli
(2) Hiring Accorsi's buddy
(3) Going the predictable route of hiring the "hot" OC
(4) Getting outwitted in the FA market
(5) Drafting a RB for now and not a QB for now and the
future
You just can't make it up.
Especially the horseshit about Mara dictating that Manning stays as a way to makeup for last year, and ordering that the team be built around him.
They had very realistic opportunities to completely overhaul a franchise that has been in complete disarray for years. They opted not to. I don't know where that leaves us now.
Especially the horseshit about Mara dictating that Manning stays as a way to makeup for last year, and ordering that the team be built around him.
Do you really find that hard to believe?
It wasn't quite the Code Red scene in "A Few Good Men". But all the circumstantial evidence points to Mara wanting to save Eli's legacy; and do whatever is possible to send him out in style and not in shame.
Except of course the Stewart signing which was anything but half-measured...noticed you have changed your spots on that one as of late.
Not really.
I wanted a QB - definitely true. But I would have been able to reconcile Darnold, Rosen or Allen.
From there, I could have lived with a defensive players - Chubb, Ward, Fitzpatrick (who is lighting it up in Miami - this is the DROTY), etc.
Or moving down, too.
The RB position has just become too commoditized. I think it's arguably the most overrated position in football.
If those moves were made without expecting an improvement in year one, then how were the selection of Barkley and retaining Eli good moves?
Eli's main problem has been the OL the past few years. Another year older with an OL that plays the same, someone thought that was a good idea?
And anyone watching Barkley knows he's not exactly thriving because of the OL. So right there, a year of his career is pretty much shot as well (where RBs aren't exactly known for their longevity).
They made the moves because they expected them to bear fruit. If you want to defend them that's fine, but not on the basis that they knew they weren't getting an improvement this year, that's just silly.
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is simply wrong. He paid big money to a LT, he decided not to pay big money to two of our players, he drafted Hernandez etc. He replaced four of the five guys on the OL and while Flowers is bad, he is not nearly as terrible as people on here make him out to be. ANd, what I mean by that is simply, he might be better than a guy off the street or anyone else we could have gotten. You can argue those were bad decision and that might be right, but he did address the Offensive Line. And, as I have said ad nauseum in the off season, anyone expecting the offensive line to get better after giving up big pieces like Pugh and Richburg were in for a surprise. They might have been the right moves, sort of like drilling for a cavity to get rid of the decay before filling it, but it did not mean our OL would improve in year 1.
If those moves were made without expecting an improvement in year one, then how were the selection of Barkley and retaining Eli good moves?
Eli's main problem has been the OL the past few years. Another year older with an OL that plays the same, someone thought that was a good idea?
And anyone watching Barkley knows he's not exactly thriving because of the OL. So right there, a year of his career is pretty much shot as well (where RBs aren't exactly known for their longevity).
They made the moves because they expected them to bear fruit. If you want to defend them that's fine, but not on the basis that they knew they weren't getting an improvement this year, that's just silly.
I made the very argument you made at the time, ad nauseum. I belive your argument and I believe you are right. With that said, maybe they think this is a 3-4 year deal and Eli will have one more run. Again, I think that is foolish and decision I would have made myself, but I can't say that that is a failure after game two. Gettleman could be thinking long term with Eli and rebuilding the team for a run in the next 3-4 years with Eli, SB, and OBJ. Again, I wouldn't do it that way, but I can't say that it has not panned out after two games.
It wasn't quite the Code Red scene in "A Few Good Men". But all the circumstantial evidence points to Mara wanting to save Eli's legacy; and do whatever is possible to send him out in style and not in shame.
Circumstantial evidence my ass. Giants ownership doesn't give directives to preserve a player's legacy. In your fucked up world, ownership hires a GM and a new coach with the explicit instructions to keep the QB around, even if it is detrimental to the team. To "bow to the House Of Manning". They then build around the QB to make sure he's here for several more years and give him a shiny new RB to go with a top WR.
Yet, they don't do the most basic move of all - protecting him with an OL.
There's no Illuminati moves being made. No Secret Order of Masons shit going on. Just a lot of lunacy in your posts and a roster construction that chose to pick the top player in the draft instead of taking a QB. You confuse a choice with being a directive.
But it isn't surprising. You continually refer to Jints Central as this incompetent organization that has somehow lucked into 4 SB victories, so your historical perspective is fucked up to be kind.
I don't want to see the results they're going to get, and I don't want to watch Eli get the shit kicked out of him every week. If they're really thinking of Eli at 40 and this was the best they could do this year, then I can't see having any faith in them whatsoever to keep him in one piece for the next 3-4 years.
You have complained about every draft pick every year. Even if you're right, you have zero credibility anymore. Maybe you can tell us again how Patricia is a "true leader of men."
Unfortunately, he won't.
Or anyone who thinks a comma belongs in the middle of that post.
The Darnold crowd will be insidious the entire year and we'll be forced into listening about how great he is, will be, could be, should be for the Giants.
Without an Oline, he would be David Carr all over getting pounded until he would be terminally gun shy.
Until the line is fixed drafting a QB is wasting a draft choice.
But drafting a RB without an OL is aces. Got it.
We just have to hope they get better and fast.
This is why I actually have a bit -- a shred -- of optimism towards the Giants post 2018 future. Like the Chiefs, we have some seriously explosive talent. If the front office makes some uncharacteristically bold and wise moves, we could certainly become a team that expands upon that explosive talent AND combines it with clever innovation and execution.
Of course the guy who thinks the ownership of all his teams sucks criticizes the Maras....
They are to blame for this mess.
Circumstantial evidence my ass. Giants ownership doesn't give directives to preserve a player's legacy. In your fucked up world, ownership hires a GM and a new coach with the explicit instructions to keep the QB around, even if it is detrimental to the team. To "bow to the House Of Manning". They then build around the QB to make sure he's here for several more years and give him a shiny new RB to go with a top WR.
Unfortunately you are deep in denial. Let me help once again...
It was reported in Newsday after the Benchgate that Mara and Eli had a "very emotional talk" and Mara didn't want Eli to "go out like this". And he was basically heartbroken when Eli started to break down on TV after the benching was announced. Mara then said he wanted Eli to retire as a Giant and Eli wanted the same thing. So...
A few days later McAdoo is the made the scapegoat and fired. And a few days later Reese is fired to round out the house clean. Both are easy targets.
Then suddenly Accorsi is back in the picture. Do you think that's just coincidence? He drafted Eli. And then he strongly recommends that Gettleman, who was there when Eli was drafted, as the GM. Do you think that's just another coincidence?
The next shoe drops - Shurmur becomes the HC lead candidate. Why? He just brought Case Keenum back from the QB graveyard. Perfect. Maybe he can do the same resuscitate Eli.
Shortly thereafter it is plastered all over the media that everyone has watched all this video and Eli still has plenty in the tank. Mara is ecstatic. Just what he wants to hear...Is that just pure coincidence? Hell, no. That is everyone falling in line.
Then the plan is hatched - rebuild the oline, improve at RB, and lock down OBJ (which got bumpy when the grainy video surfaced). And let's see if we can add some pieces on D.
Now Eli is set to - on paper - with a better team offensively.
I actually get why Mara did this. He feels a big debt of gratitude towards Eli. As I've said in the past, that's human nature. Mara isn't coldblooded to simply severe ties after such a catastrophe with the benching...
But I think it's the wrong plan; and a reflection of an organization that made decisions based on emotion and not good football reasoning.