1. Rushing: The Giants are 27th, and in two games now averaging 74.5 yards per game (nearly 10 yards fewer than the Buffalo Bills). Note, just for fun: Houston is 1st at more than double the NTG number.
2. Pressure: Eli Manning has been sacked 8 times now. That's third-highest in the league. League high is 10 (Tyrod Taylor), and Jimmy Garoppolo has been sacked 9 times.
3. Time of possession: Still, the Giants' average time-of-possession is 11th (at 31:20 per game).
4. Leading receiver is: The Giants leader in receptions - clearly out of necessity - is Saquon Barkley (16), while the team's No. 1 wide receiver has 15 catches.
5. Completion percentage Eli Manning's completion percentage is 69.1, which ties him for 12th in the NFL in that category with Patrick Mahomes. That's his highest completion percentage in his career. It's also more than 9 percentage points higher than his career average (59.9). Moreover, the following last names of NFL quarterbacks have a lower completion percentage than Eli Manning so far this fall:
* Newton
* Brady
* Darnold
* Foles
* Trubisky
* Cousins
* Prescott
* Goff
* Dalton
* Flacco
* Ryan
* Stafford
* Roethlisberger
* Bradford
* Bortles
* Keenum
* Watson
* Wilson
* Gabbert
* Garoppolo
6. Time: We've looked at the average amount of time Eli Manning has had to throw the football in years past. The times have been among the shortest (league worst) in 2016 (2.53 seconds) and 2017 (2.50 seconds). The number isn't quite as bad this year so far, but it's not good (2.70 seconds).
7. Facing 8 in the box: Looking at a couple other rushing-related stats, the first shows that 24.14% of the time they come to the LOS, Saquon Barkley and Eli Manning are looking at defenses with 8 players in the box.
8. Time in the backfield: Another interesting stat tracks a running back's average time spent behind the LOS after a hand-off. Saquon Barkley's time behind the LOS thus far is 3.02 seconds. To get an idea how that number compares, this is among the longest time spent in the backfield, with the vast majority of RBs having a lower number than 3.0 seconds. Four RBs with numbers higher than 3.02 seconds are: Todd Gurley, Adrian Peterson, LeSean McCoy and Zeke Elliott.
9. QB rating on par: Eli Manning's QB rating thus far is 84.5. That's a single point above his career QBR (83.5). His QBR was 73.9 in 2007 when he was lights-out in the post-season. He's certainly not "lights out" so far, but given the circumstances, he's absolutely adequate. Moreover, the following last names of NFL quarterbacks have a lower QB rating than Eli Manning so far this fall:
* Watson
* Ryan
* Foles
* Garoppolo
* Trubisky
* Stafford
* Keenum
* Gabbert
* Taylor
* Mariota ... while these are only 4 points or fewer above Eli Manning:
* Roethlisberger
* Luck
* Prescott
* Carr
* Darnold
Put all these facts together and tell me again how the problem is Eli Manning?
The reason I ask is that point #6 reads, "We've looked at the average amount of time..."
Who is "We"?
Usually article writers (or posters) don't use the word "We" unless they're with an organization or a website like PFF.
Just not the case. How many seasons with offensive lines comprised of at least a few guys who were not NFL players?
Reminds me of the 2005 playoff game in which the linebacking corps was so decimated by injury that there were our starters that day: Nick Greisen, Kevin Lewis and Alonzo Jackson (who started one game in his very short career - THAT one).
No matter what you do, you're not going to win football games with sub-par players at key positions. That's what we have right now with at least THREE positions on our offensive line (imo).
Actually Reese was the problem. His stench is going to be felt for years.
The reason I ask is that point #6 reads, "We've looked at the average amount of time..."
Who is "We"?
Usually article writers (or posters) don't use the word "We" unless they're with an organization or a website like PFF.
"We," as in BBIers. There have been at least a few conversations about the time Eli has had to throw the football, and how he's had among the smallest window the last few years.
For that and a few other stats, I looked at this site.
The other stats ... NFL stat leader boards. Nothing outrageous.
WE ... have talked about this on BBI. lol - ( New Window )
The reality is that the best QB's in this league often are able to perform in the face of poor circumstances around them. There are a lot of bad offensive lines in football - this isn't a problem unique to the Giants.
Tom Brady is a very, very large exception. But zero mobility QB's are very difficult to win with now because it's so hard to get them the type of protection necessary.
A lot of the reason Eli is getting sacked so much is Eli.
Yes, it's also bad protection. When the fullback just completely whiffs on a slot blitz and the pressure gets to Eli before he can even make reads, there's nothing we can really do about that.
But if you don't think Eli is a part of the problem, I think it may be time to start re-considering...
Quote:
Both the OLine and Eli are huge parts of the problem.
Actually Reese was the problem. His stench is going to be felt for years.
He was and his impact is still felt on the team, I agree. But the OLine and Eli are big issues now, as well.
Dlinemen are eating that up. zero fear of what happens if they get sucked in or too far upfield.
so its much easier to scheme- add in the fact the OL is poor and we dont execute or chip... well there you go.
Quote:
In comment 14080865 allstarjim said:
Quote:
And then find open receivers downfield, but he can't.
There ARE NO CLEAN POCKETS IN THE NFL ANYMORE. I mean, there are, but they are rare.
That's just not true. Last week's Bears-Packers game is a perfect example. Green Bay doesn't win that game, doesn't come back like they did, without a clean pocket the entire second half. Rodgers gimping around ... and he was essentially untouched.
Point is, that game last night, the Dallas defensive approach, was unlike many I've seen against the Giants. It was unlike the game the week before, even playing a stout D like Jacksonville's. Without an over-matched O-line, the Dallas "genius" D coordinator is not able to dial up whatever the hell he wants.
There's a problem, all right.
Did you watch that game Beez? In particular, the first half? The Bears were all over Rodgers. In the second half, on a gimpy leg and figuring he was out there for show, they dared him to beat them by dropping back and they lost.
Yes. I watched. And yes, you're correct. They dropped back ... gave him time ... and he had a clean pocket. That was their failing, but I think the overriding takeaway there is: give a guy like that another second in the pocket and there's success. Maybe if Dallas had taken pity, we'd have won last night late? lol Or maybe if we had better players on the line ...
Twice Eli had 3 completions, without a first down....what does that tell you? He was dumping the ball.....all night......Hell, he had 3 completions, and needed a qb sneak to get a first down, on fourth down....
We had OBj, SS, EE, and SB, all healthy, and after 3 quarters, all we had was a fg to show for it.....how was this offense any different from the one last year, that had no weapons?
If Eli was a statue back there, I am sure he could easily throw the ball for long completions....but he can not function behind the OL that we presently have....and I can see C, RT, and RG easily being replaced next year, and the book on Hernandez is not complete yet....he is a rookie playing like a rookie, and is not the road grader or pass protector we expected.....and our overpaid LT will be another year older.....so what are our expectations for next year, when management knew the weak link of our offense was the OL? Trust them to fix it next year?
And by the end of this year, Eli may be shell shocked, and if smart, should retire, to avoid the embarrassment of being cut....Because I don't think this OL will be much better next year, and like I said Eli can not function behind this kind of line......
I guess that means I wouldn't be the problem either. Put a blindman at QB, imagine how bad those stats would be. But he would not be part of the problem either.
Eli has never been a stand and deliver qb, aside from some really tough playoff games, which I will always admire him for.
D. Lawrence is 100% correct that Eli has gotten fearful backthere. To his credit, he should. The OL has not been NFL caliber for 5+ years of battering.
However, he needs to watch the film with his coaches and see what he is doing on the 5 second plays. A few of those make the difference between wins and losses, 100% in both of the last 2 games.
10ball 4 life, though its his last year in Blue.
Dak didn't get hit much last night, but the Giants did get some pressure on him. The difference was his ability to scramble away from it and throw a dart into a tight window. Eli doesn't have that ability.
We saw this the last two years and it's worse this year. Every player's skills diminish in time. The pressure of letting fans decide what is best for the franchise has now set this team back. This season will absolutely be a repeat of last year. Whether or not Shurmur can keep the locker room will be the question. The defense has played well enough to win in both games, but the offense cannot move the ball. Something is going to give.
And as far as other QBs in the league. If you watched the KC-Pitt game, you would have sworn there were no DL in the game because they were never EVER in the backfield.
BTW, FWIW, Rodgers wasnt touched once in the 2nd half of his game. And he stood in the pocket many time surveying the field.
All you need to do is look at last night when Dak was fooling our defense. We were so keyed on Zeke that we let Dak run around the end twice. Then, of course we are not going to pursue as hard next time because someone has to stay home and keep an eye on Dak.
The Cowboys are smart not only to do that to win this game but also it gets on film and it impacts how other defense will play against the cowboys.
So, with Eli it really is much easier. Then, when they see how he basically bails on the play (either by checking out of it or mentally) when he sees a rush coming, no wonder we are getting blitzed on every play.
Dak didn't get hit much last night, but the Giants did get some pressure on him. The difference was his ability to scramble away from it and throw a dart into a tight window. Eli doesn't have that ability.
We saw this the last two years and it's worse this year. Every player's skills diminish in time. The pressure of letting fans decide what is best for the franchise has now set this team back. This season will absolutely be a repeat of last year. Whether or not Shurmur can keep the locker room will be the question. The defense has played well enough to win in both games, but the offense cannot move the ball. Something is going to give.
Impossible to disagree with this.
But his time is over. He does not fit the new NFL where the QB has to be able to move around (not scramble, but more in or out of the pocket to buy more time to throw the ball)
FOURTEEN
So to point to his completion percentage as a positive is not a good argument.
The same people lauding Eli for his completion percentage would be the same people who belittled Alex Smith's (captain checkdowns) numbers
His immobility makes him an impossible fit for this trainwreck of an offensive line.
No non-running QB in the league could succeed behind an offensive line that gets killed by four-man rushes and gets pushed backwards on every snap.
Tom Brady would look like how he did against the Chiefs a couple years back when everyone said there was a fork in his back.
And there is no immediate solution to turn to because of the decisions made thus far.
So lets worry about what to do next April when the draft is closer.
Until then, play Eli...don't play Eli, play Lauletta..don't play Laulettea. Whatever...
FOURTEEN
So to point to his completion percentage as a positive is not a good argument.
The same people lauding Eli for his completion percentage would be the same people who belittled Alex Smith's (captain checkdowns) numbers
Hey, here is a positive...
A couple of years ago Eli was not even on target with those dump offs. Now, he is completing all of them it seems.
I watched the 2nd and 4th quarters of the Pats game. Brady was getting plenty of time. There oline is light years better that ours. Since I had a real rooting interest I focused on their new LT. He held up pretty good from what I saw
Quote:
In comment 14080898 Beezer said:
Quote:
In comment 14080865 allstarjim said:
Quote:
And then find open receivers downfield, but he can't.
There ARE NO CLEAN POCKETS IN THE NFL ANYMORE. I mean, there are, but they are rare.
That's just not true. Last week's Bears-Packers game is a perfect example. Green Bay doesn't win that game, doesn't come back like they did, without a clean pocket the entire second half. Rodgers gimping around ... and he was essentially untouched.
Point is, that game last night, the Dallas defensive approach, was unlike many I've seen against the Giants. It was unlike the game the week before, even playing a stout D like Jacksonville's. Without an over-matched O-line, the Dallas "genius" D coordinator is not able to dial up whatever the hell he wants.
There's a problem, all right.
Did you watch that game Beez? In particular, the first half? The Bears were all over Rodgers. In the second half, on a gimpy leg and figuring he was out there for show, they dared him to beat them by dropping back and they lost.
Yes. I watched. And yes, you're correct. They dropped back ... gave him time ... and he had a clean pocket. That was their failing, but I think the overriding takeaway there is: give a guy like that another second in the pocket and there's success. Maybe if Dallas had taken pity, we'd have won last night late? lol Or maybe if we had better players on the line ...
Unsurprisingly you're missing the point - Rodgers didn't have a clean pocket because of a good OL, it was because the Chicago game plan changed when they thought he was hurt.
Rodgers, Brady, BR - are all more capable of moving around in the pocket than Eli is. And they all see pressure - but because they're able to move around, they escape it more often. Eli's line might be worse, but that's also a function of how well he moves.
But, this team is hot garbage. The o line is dominated to the point of absurdity and Eli can not overcome it. The Giants need a full roster rebuild, they went with the half measure with this GM and it looks right now like that was the wrong move.
Eli has been losing and losing and losing. He needs a change of scenery too, what is going on with this team is beyond his ability to help. I hope there is a new QB they can get after this year's four win or less season.
Last night was that bad.
Eli Manning will be in the ring of honor, but his legacy this year will get beat up as much as his body due to the shit this franchise has become. A losing culture is contagious, this team has a losing culture now. This new HC has his work cut out for him, his "genius" as a play caller meant fuck all last night. Also, not to knock Beckham, but paying ninety plus million to a WR and making him a centerpiece will be great for jersey sales, but will mean fuck all for wins and losses.
The degree to which all opposing teams whip this group up front is mind boggling. The D was pretty good, but make a goddamb play. I read on here there was not one TFL, sack or pick. They also looked like my jr high team losing contain on Dak. Did they even fucking practice.
This is a losing franchise now, only drastic measures will fix it.
Eli has never been a stand and deliver qb, aside from some really tough playoff games, which I will always admire him for.
D. Lawrence is 100% correct that Eli has gotten fearful backthere. To his credit, he should. The OL has not been NFL caliber for 5+ years of battering.
However, he needs to watch the film with his coaches and see what he is doing on the 5 second plays. A few of those make the difference between wins and losses, 100% in both of the last 2 games.
10ball 4 life, though its his last year in Blue.
He panicked?
Or, his receivers were covered and he - after 4-5 seconds (your number) - took the next available option to try to move the football. Not a bad option.
He is not scared, he just can't do it anymore with this group.
After you get to the halfway point, then you have more to go on, in general.
FOURTEEN
So to point to his completion percentage as a positive is not a good argument.
The same people lauding Eli for his completion percentage would be the same people who belittled Alex Smith's (captain checkdowns) numbers
Alex Smith doesn't like pushing it down the field. Eli does. Eli simply doesn't have time to let things develop. Hence....the dump off - for survival.
And why is this? Its because he has 2-3 seconds to throw so he has no choice but to check down or take the sack. When they other team blitzes, and its not picked up, the right thing to do is hit the hot read (check down).
He did that all night long. As dep says:
- If he checks down he is scared and has happy feet
- If he takes the sack he is dumb and should have thrown it away
- If he wings it up hoping to hit someone, he is careless and a turnover machine
Eli can't win with the anti-Eli crowd not matter what. A QB, any QB, needs time to read the D and wait for his receivers to get open.
With a better OL his percentage would probably go down, not up, because he'd be throwing the ball further than 5 yards downfield.
GIANTS128 : 11:46 am : link : reply
I watched the 2nd and 4th quarters of the Pats game. Brady was getting plenty of time. There oline is light years better that ours. Since I had a real rooting interest I focused on their new LT. He held up pretty good from what I saw
And he only cost 2M......Solder got 22M this year.....
Hmmmmmm.......
Quote:
In comment 14080848 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
Joe Montana would have already been removed on a stretcher. Tom Brady has NEVER had to deal with this.
Given all he is facing, ZERO interceptions on him in 2 games. I don't count the deflection as being on him.
He eats sacks and throws it out of bounds instead of throwing gifts, he checks down, he does the best he can.
It sucks. These awesome receivers, and he can't get set, can't EVER be comfortable in the pocket.
It's like having a Ferrari with 4 donut-spare tires on it. All the power in the world, but it's going NOWHERE fast.
Russell Wilson, Deshaun Watson, Pat Mahomes, Carson Wentz, Aaron Rodgers, and I could continue.
3 of those guys you listed have already missed time with major injuries and in the case of Rodgers, it's happened to him more than once.
It's kind of a testament to how durable Eli Manning is. That guy gets his clock cleaned and still gets up.
While that's true, Watson's injury was a non-contact practice injury that could've happened to anyone. Wentz thought he was a fullback and I would never advise my QB to run like that. And any of us would take Aaron Rodgers tomorrow, despite his injury history. Yes, Eli's ironman status is to be commended. And when I say a QB with mobility, I'm talking about a guy that can extend the play, I'm not necessarily looking for a guy that is going to run for a lot of first downs. I'm looking for a guy that will be able to run enough but is still a guy looking to throw first. Russell Wilson is that kind of guy, for example.
That is the proverbial nail on the head, combining an aging immobile QB with the WORST O-line in the league is just a recipe for disaster, which is what we have.
Dak didn't get hit much last night, but the Giants did get some pressure on him. The difference was his ability to scramble away from it and throw a dart into a tight window. Eli doesn't have that ability.
We saw this the last two years and it's worse this year. Every player's skills diminish in time. The pressure of letting fans decide what is best for the franchise has now set this team back. This season will absolutely be a repeat of last year. Whether or not Shurmur can keep the locker room will be the question. The defense has played well enough to win in both games, but the offense cannot move the ball. Something is going to give.
Correct, there were occasions last night he was feeling phantom pressure. Was watching with a Chiefs fan and he saw it too.
Quote:
That's the only stat I need to see
And why is this? Its because he has 2-3 seconds to throw so he has no choice but to check down or take the sack. When they other team blitzes, and its not picked up, the right thing to do is hit the hot read (check down).
He did that all night long. As dep says:
- If he checks down he is scared and has happy feet
- If he takes the sack he is dumb and should have thrown it away
- If he wings it up hoping to hit someone, he is careless and a turnover machine
Eli can't win with the anti-Eli crowd not matter what. A QB, any QB, needs time to read the D and wait for his receivers to get open.
At times he needs to do none of those things, keep his eyes downfield in the face of pressure, and burn the blitzing defense. There are guys open. That's not what he's doing.
You have 5 guys and 3 of them at minimum are going to be matched up 1 on 1 every play. There are guys on the other side that are going to win those battles, often. Aaron Donald is going to beat your well-above average OG often enough. Fletcher Cox will. Khalil Mack is going to beat your LT, even if his name is Tyron Smith.
So you're counting on 5 guys to all win on almost every play at the same time to give your QB a chance to succeed. That's not realistic in today's game, and that's not even talking about when you mix blitzes in.
You have to have a guy who can do more and be more than his protection would dictate. As another poster said, poor pass pro is not unique to the Giants. There is very little great O-line play across the league. Eli needs to be a lot better, period. And the problem is he probably can't be, because he just doesn't move around good enough anymore.
But so many are saying "Eli is toast." Meanwhile, others are saying Eli is immobile, like it something new. I have to wonder what they've been watching over the years. It's frustrating not because I'm an apologist. It's frustrating because ... what if?
Beez, Eli 5 years ago was more mobile. I know he never will and never was compared to a QB like Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers in terms of his running ability, but he could extend the play when needed, and occasionally run for the first down, which sometimes resulted in some comical QB slides. But he doesn't really even try to do that anymore. He is nearly a statue in the pocket, now. So yes, he's less mobile than he used to be and that is the difference between a guy that could get it done and what we have now.
That's hilarious and untrue. The people here that think Eli would be better than Bortles at this point are in complete denial. Here's the quintessential problem with our team...Blake Bortles IS A BETTER QUARTERBACK TODAY THAN ELI MANNING. He is, period. As much as his play has been wanting the last couple of seasons, Bortles has been better than Eli. He was better than him last year, he was better the year before, and he's better than him this year. And Bortles didn't have an ideal scenario last year, either. His line wasn't great, he had hardly any weapons.
If you watched that NE-Jax game, they don't win that game without Bortles. He was terrific. You have it in reverse, WE would be closer to being a Super Bowl contender with Blake Bortles as our QB.
One td pass in two games, on a busted defensive play....that's all folks...
And not to belabor the point, but Bortles himself ran for 35 yards on 6 carries. Three of those runs were on 3rd down where he used his legs and converted for a first down. They weren't dive plays, either...3rd and 6, 3rd and 7, and 3rd and 8...Bortles turned them into first downs with his legs.