Joe & Evan got into a heated debate with Banks today with regards to whether NYG is a win now team. Banks emphatically said no, he used the term “get better team”.
Joe & Evan both said that sticking with Eli means they are trying to win now, which I agree with. Banks said that has nothing to do with it.
I’ve always followed the premise that during a rebuild the new coach should find his young QB to pair up with. From there, build up the trenches.
I’ve read the posts from Joey, BB56 & FMiC - I hope they are right. It feels like they are building from the outside in which seems backwards. As a NYG fan, I *hope* Banks is right, but I have my doubts.
Lastly, is it possible DG/PS liked a QB who will be coming out this year, more so than the 2018 crop? I’m just hoping there’s a plan here.
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He's cleaning house a part at a time and he didn't love any of the QBs. So take a flier on a 4th rounder, see where the chips fall and we try again next year. DG WILL focus on being bigger on both lines before he does anything else, this off-season and draft were evidence, he just needs more ammo and more time to clean this mess up.
This is what doesn't make sense. If you are on a multi-year build and don't like the QBs, why not trade down in a talent rich draft and accumulate quality young guys?
Because he believed a Generational talent was sitting there at #2 and he was going to lose him by trading down.
It was such a bizarre offseason for many reasons, but one that sticks out for me is the continual need to say the team is either in "win now" mode or "rebuild" mode.
I've said before that once the salary cap came in place, you simply don't have rebuilds anymore. You have a lot of moving parts of improvement.
A lot of it is the perception that a new QB equates to a team throwing the towel in, even though there are numerous cases to disprove this idea. And then sometimes, you have the expectation that year 2 of a new QB is an automatic try for greatness. Well, Mitch Trubisky might tell you to watch out for that kind of thinking.
I thought the Giants should have drafted a QB, but had they done that, I wouldn't look any differently on whether or not the season was win now. And that's the main disconnect that so many have who advocated taking a QB and keep telling the board what a mistake it was not to take one because we are trying to win now instead of some unknown plan??
This team wasn't ready for a young QB. Nowhere close. That's the reason they didn't take one.
Adding a high draft QB to teams like this are how busts are made.
...this team isn’t winning now. End of story. Passing on all the QBs in this extremely highly regarded class and taking a RB means you think you’re ready to compete today. Anything to the contrary being said now is simply spin and total bullshit.
...this team isn’t winning now. End of story. Passing on all the QBs in this extremely highly regarded class and taking a RB means you think you’re ready to compete today. Anything to the contrary being said now is simply spin and total bullshit.
And maxing out cap and trading picks for veterans! The reality is that there was and is no direction for the franchise.
He is referring to the offensive line and building from the tackles in, when we don't have any reliable interior players to begin with.
It means they decided to choose the best player in the draft. How does the choice of a RB over a QB say anything about the plan to win or not? You want playmakers, no matter what the position.
The narrative hasn't changed - it's just that people who desperately wanted to draft a QB haven't moved on. Josh is a prime example as I think nearly every one of his posts since the draft have focused on this subject.
In my opinion, the decision to stay with Eli was to keep the fans happy.
A new head coach, GM, coordinators, systems, culture + a 3-13 roster of talent...lots of high drafted QBs have gone to teams like that, but their names are hard to remember.
Fuck me.
I think this is the more likely scenario than the conspiracy theories floating around.
If you are playing for the future, you take a QB or trade down for more picks....
As for a plan, the Giants haven't had one for years, and it remains to be seen if DG has one, and if he does, is it the right one?
All that would need to be done in this scenario is simply not play the rookie QB. If anyone passed on a QB simply out of fear of him being affected by sacks and hits, its GM malpractice.
If things go bad (as they are now), we bite the bullet in 2018, move on from Eli at the end of the season and go 100% into the rebuild with a couple of major OL pickups (FA and/or draft) and a QB. By the end of the college football season, it’s definitely possible that there will be one or two draft-eligible QBs that look like good prospects. We always see a guy or two come out of nowhere and play on an incredibly high level in college. In fact, Darnold was exactly that story two years ago, he just wasn’t draft eligible until the past year
Doomster : 9:24 pm : link : reply
you take the best player available.....
If you are playing for the future, you take a QB or trade down for more picks...
So when a shitty team drafts a OL #1 overall, it is to play for now? Or when a pass rusher goes first, it is to win now? Clowney was a win now move? Eric Fisher? Jake Long?
When Fournette, Richardson, Bush or Ronnie Brown were drafted, they were win now picks?
Man that take just sucks.
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And decided that he wasn’t going to take a QB high (which would mean Eli is traded) and have that young QB turned into David Carr. Maybe it’s better to have Eli and possibly Lauletta take the brunt of it this year while they get another offseason to fix the rest of the OL and maybe draft a QB high in 2019
All that would need to be done in this scenario is simply not play the rookie QB. If anyone passed on a QB simply out of fear of him being affected by sacks and hits, its GM malpractice.
With what QB...certainly not Eli as he won’t stick around when another QB is taken high. He would certainly ask for a trade (and in fact that’s probably what happened when everyone had this conversation).
You would have to get another QB (a McCown type) as a credible placeholder for one year and sell the fanbase on this year being a lost year. I think that would be a better course of action than what was taken but you would have to get berated every week by the fans and media regarding why you are redshirting the future QB for a year
Adding a high draft QB to teams like this are how busts are made.
+1
Just ask David Carr. Trotting a young QB out there without a line to protect him is a huge risk.
He is referring to the offensive line and building from the tackles in, when we don't have any reliable interior players to begin with.
...this team isn’t winning now. End of story. Passing on all the QBs in this extremely highly regarded class and taking a RB means you think you’re ready to compete today. Anything to the contrary being said now is simply spin and total bullshit.
Yup. With that said i can’t imagine they thought the o would struggle like this. To be fair though, it’s two weeks. It is a funny league where shit can and will change on a dime.
It’s obvious why the ol sucks so much. Questionable talent in spots. Little to no cohesion. Doomed.
This team is a LONG way from being a contender. Both lines suck. Did we pressure Prescott at all? Do we have ANY depth?
You stick with Eli because it gives the team the best chance for some offensive stability while doing the rebuild. And you don't pick a QB at #2 just to say you did--you do so if you are convinced he's a future stud; otherwise the years you commit to his development are wasted ones. I strongly believe that Gettleman wasn't in love with any of the QBs left at 2, and that he'd have taken a QB if he felt otherwise.
Whether he was right about their talent is another matter.
Good post
This team is a LONG way from being a contender. Both lines suck. Did we pressure Prescott at all? Do we have ANY depth?
You stick with Eli because it gives the team the best chance for some offensive stability while doing the rebuild. And you don't pick a QB at #2 just to say you did--you do so if you are convinced he's a future stud; otherwise the years you commit to his development are wasted ones. I strongly believe that Gettleman wasn't in love with any of the QBs left at 2, and that he'd have taken a QB if he felt otherwise.
Whether he was right about their talent is another matter.
Sorry, but you are wrong and the history of the league bears this out. The QB is by far the most important player on the team and you pick him first if available. You don't have to play him right away. He gains just in practice and by sitting on the bench.
Eli was thrown into the starting position halfway through his first year when the team record wasn't even that awful. He lost seven of the eight games and through at least nine interceptions.
In his second year he won eleven games.
I can't understand in any way how you would keep a failing, over-the-hill at QB while you were rebuilding. Bad teams need their confidence restored. They need to see a progression towards getting better. The new QB has to be there to work with other members of the offense, especially the new ones.
You think that playing this Eli (admittedly horribly protected) in the lineup is going to help the rebuild process? Just like two years ago, he looks first for OBJ and often tries to force the ball to him even if he's triple covered. He has a new safety valve in Barkley.
And what the hell are they thinking playing Engram on almost every down. They need blockers. Blockers for Manning and blockers for Barkley. The don't need another wide out who drops passes. Manning looks for OBJ first and Barkley second and that's all the time he has.
This. Reese made too many mistakes for this to be a quickie. The OL has been a mess for years. Barely NFL level. Unfixable in a year. Maybe two. More likely 3 before it’s possible to be above average
Right now, save for Barkley - is there one piece of this team that seems improved over last? The guys we spent good money signing, the draft picks - in the first two games, has anything stood out as a positive in terms of improvement?
Barkley certainly looks promising - but he was the 2nd overall pick. Do any of the other moves, from coaching changes to roster churn, look like they've had any positive impact on the team? Right now, I can't find any.
Also Lauletta could very will be a scheme fit guy Shumur was looking for.
If you are playing for the future, you take a QB or trade down for more picks....
Not necessarily. if it is a rebuild and they figure it is a two year job, they take the best player available which they did. And it wasn't close as to who the best player available was. Highest rated player ever, in fact was Barkley.
The way football is played today, I do not think the term "franchise QB" applies to conventional thinking.
I don't care who the QB is, without some protection, he's just canon fodder. Would not subject a rookie QB to that.
People need to accept that DG is here to stay. While ownership gets criticized for many things, they are patient and loyal. DG will be given plenty of time to enact his team building philosophy. DG isn't given a mandate to "win now". The goal is ultimately to deliver championships, but a winning program is the bottom line.
DG is not concerned about future job prospects. This is it. While we are aware of his recent health issues, it is apparent that despite his cancer treatments, he is not a healthy man. With his age and underlying health concerns, it changes a man's perspective. As he alluded to in his intro press conference, he is here to stay until they take away his key card. This is his final stand, his Alamo if you will. He will make decisions that will align with how he wants to build a team.
He wasn't forced to take the job. He is financially secure that he could have wallowed away his retirement on a golf course. He took the job because he is passionate about the sport. He is not a puppet being controlled by Jints Central. He accepted the job with the autonomy that allows him to enact his philosophy.
Are we sure that their "evaluation" of the QB's was never really a fair one to start with?
They were basically all in on the Eli train even before the college bowl games had been played. So right from the jump, I believe they were holding these QB's up to an unreasonable standard than they would not have if Eli was not there. Thus, no matter how good of a prospect a guy was, if he didn't as much as brush his teeth the right way, they would use anything to mark as negative.
From the owner to the GM search to the head coach, I think they all had to sign up for Eli as a condition.
Or in other words, the exact same situation that Gettleman refused to do and was fired in Carolina.
Makes perfect sense.
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They just weren't sold that any of the QB's at the top of the draft were sure bets. They all had question marks: Darnold - too many TO's in college, Rosen- injury history/attitude, And obviously Allen is project. Basically they probably didn't see Eli 2004/Peyton etc...in the group. In that spot they decided to go with the generational talent in Barkley, having already signed Soldier they took Hernandez in the 2nd rd who everybody loves. He probably figures they set things up as much as they can for Eli or his successor. Maybe in this scenario you can make the argument they trade down a few spots and take the Nelson or Chubb and gain picks but who knows what was offered. Impossible to get into that.
Are we sure that their "evaluation" of the QB's was never really a fair one to start with?
They were basically all in on the Eli train even before the college bowl games had been played. So right from the jump, I believe they were holding these QB's up to an unreasonable standard than they would not have if Eli was not there. Thus, no matter how good of a prospect a guy was, if he didn't as much as brush his teeth the right way, they would use anything to mark as negative.
From the owner to the GM search to the head coach, I think they all had to sign up for Eli as a condition.
My take is different. I think Mara would have been fine with letting Eli leave and hook up with Jax, for example. Shurmur comes in, is asked to evaluate Eli objectively (Mara’s love for Eli would be far too biased) and he felt Eli still had the physical tools.
Shurmur then obviously watched extensive film on the projected QBs in the draft and concluded that they were not SPECIAL enough to project as franchise-caliber. Given his ability to have developed QBs in the past, his expertise (along with scouting reports and consultations with the scouts themselves) was valued and, imo, appropriately followed.
Again, time will tell (and certainly not after just 2 games or even a year or two) if he and DG were right
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In comment 14082427 dpinzow said:
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And decided that he wasn’t going to take a QB high (which would mean Eli is traded) and have that young QB turned into David Carr. Maybe it’s better to have Eli and possibly Lauletta take the brunt of it this year while they get another offseason to fix the rest of the OL and maybe draft a QB high in 2019
All that would need to be done in this scenario is simply not play the rookie QB. If anyone passed on a QB simply out of fear of him being affected by sacks and hits, its GM malpractice.
With what QB...certainly not Eli as he won’t stick around when another QB is taken high. He would certainly ask for a trade (and in fact that’s probably what happened when everyone had this conversation).
You would have to get another QB (a McCown type) as a credible placeholder for one year and sell the fanbase on this year being a lost year. I think that would be a better course of action than what was taken but you would have to get berated every week by the fans and media regarding why you are redshirting the future QB for a year
Finding a placeholder QB is easy. Could have taken a flier on Teddy Bridgewater, or anyone else. All you need is a veteran to take up the snaps of what looks like it's going to be a lost year anyway.
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He's cleaning house a part at a time and he didn't love any of the QBs. So take a flier on a 4th rounder, see where the chips fall and we try again next year. DG WILL focus on being bigger on both lines before he does anything else, this off-season and draft were evidence, he just needs more ammo and more time to clean this mess up.
This is what doesn't make sense. If you are on a multi-year build and don't like the QBs, why not trade down in a talent rich draft and accumulate quality young guys?
Because SB generated the highest grade on the board, and they fell in love with him.
When you trade down for quantity, you're also getting lesser quality talent and a higher rate of bust. Quantity does not ensure quality, tho it looks good on paper.
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In comment 14082334 Joey in VA said:
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He's cleaning house a part at a time and he didn't love any of the QBs. So take a flier on a 4th rounder, see where the chips fall and we try again next year. DG WILL focus on being bigger on both lines before he does anything else, this off-season and draft were evidence, he just needs more ammo and more time to clean this mess up.
This is what doesn't make sense. If you are on a multi-year build and don't like the QBs, why not trade down in a talent rich draft and accumulate quality young guys?
Because SB generated the highest grade on the board, and they fell in love with him.
When you trade down for quantity, you're also getting lesser quality talent and a higher rate of bust. Quantity does not ensure quality, tho it looks good on paper.
They gave Chubb the same grade as Barkley so how in the world did they go with the RB over the pass rusher? It made no sense then and still makes no sense now when we're desperate for a pass rush.
From multiple sources they said the below. DG would never come out and say that.
When the evaluation process was complete, the Giants assigned the same grade to Barkley and Chubb. On the draft board, though, Barkley was stacked ahead of Chubb.
I agree but I generally trust Schwartz reporting as he's been on the beat forever. I just question the process of it all still at this time in regards to how we went about the draft.
The gushing over him at the Combines was legit, some believe they made their minds up then and there. DG has much to prove but he and we need more time for the process to continue.
You've got to follow your gut with these picks, you've got to hold a conviction in the prospects. They clearly felt the choice was a no brainer, I think they got the best player in the draft.
Should have gone OL I think maybe a Dion Dawkins was available .I hated both the QB picks Webb Lauletta
There was still a decent Center to be had this past draft .
How many years does Soldier have in him ?
No dobt we will be signing another Vet next season for the
O-line and we till need a pass rusher FS and CB .