Saquon Barkley is a terrific talent. I have zero doubts that he will be a great player in this league.
That being said, is there anyone still left on BBI who actually believes he was the correct pick for this franchise? I'm not being a smart ass, I'd legitimately like to hear why if you believe that.
This franchise has no real plan for the future right now. Gettleman has not earned the benefit of the doubt. He very clearly was wrong in his evaluation of the current team. He clearly believed they were ready to win now, which is obviously very far from the truth. He clearly believed Eli had a lot left in the tank. That doesn't seem to be the case.
The single most important job of a new GM is properly evaluating your current roster. A lot of people on BBI will say this is hindsight, but it's really not. Many of us on BBI didn't believe this team was ready to win now. A lot of our worst fears have been realized. Some will point to 2016 as a reason to go for it this year that they are actually more talented than they were in 2016. The problem I have with that is 2016 is the only year in the last what, 5 years, that the team hasn't sucked shit. That entire season seemed very flukey. They won a shit load of close games. The defense played way above their heads. Eli did not have a great year.
It's more than fair to be worried about the direction of this franchise with John Mara and Gettleman running the show. Most of the decisions John Mara has made have blown up in his face. There is no way to know this for sure, but I'd guess that DG is the only GM that the Giants could have hired that would have taken Barkley. His comments in the press are the most frightening of all. Ripping analytics and talking as if we're still in the 1980's.
Right or wrong, I also think DG's age played a role in the decisions made in the off-season. He's 67 years old. He's unlikely to be thinking of where this franchise will be in a decade.
It's still hard to fathom that anyone could watch the Giants the last 4-5 years and thought that taking a running back #2 overall was a smart business decision.
A lot of people on BBI in the off-season also thought that Davis Webb was the legitimate future of the Giants. Yet another thing i'll never be able to wrap my head around. He couldn't get off the bench last year and play over Geno Smith for a regime that drafted him. That told me all I needed to know about him.
Eli Manning is not the main problem with this team. But the fact is he's 37 years old, has not played well in years, and with the current roster it's not going to get any better. He could have Barry Sanders in his prime back there and it wouldn't make much difference. The line is a total train wreck. Eli is clearly shot mentally playing behind this line for the last 5 years. Physically he still has something left but each year that passes he's going to have less and less left.
I actually feel bad for Barkley. It's not his fault that the roster sucks.
The Giants desperately need a QB of the future. 2019 doesn't look to be a good year to need a QB, the likely top QB has a lot of character concerns. Barkley could stand on his head every game and without a QB for the future and a new offensive line none of it will ever matter.
John Mara has really put this franchise in a terrible situation. There is a legitimate argument to be made that the New York Giants are in the worst shape for the future of any team in the sport.
Yes, it's only 2 games into the season. But we've seen this movie too many times in the last 5 years.
The owner can't be fired, but he hasn't given any Giants fan reason to be confident in any decision that he makes. He totally botched the Eli situation last year, made the wrong hire at HC in McAdoo, kept Jerry Reese as the GM for way too long, stayed within his comfort zone when he hired Gettleman. His batting average is close to .00 in the last 5 years when it comes to decision making.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing from people who still believe that Barkley was the correct pick for this franchise. Every season that goes by without being a contender is a season wasted of Barkley's prime.
This really was not that hard to see coming.
The roster they inherited was a complete and utter disaster.
They only get one offseason and 2 games to fix it?
If they are going to make offseason moves that suggest the team is ready to compete now, then yes I expect them to compete now. If you're keeping a 37 year old QB, drafting a RB #2 overall, and committing $65M guaranteed to a WR I expect that team to compete. I expect competent offensive football. I don't expect, nor do I accept, the offensive incompetence we've seen in these two games.
If they turn it around this season I'll happily say I was completely wrong. But given comments about Rome not being built in a day and giving them a couple years, I know none of us think that will actually happen.
More excuses, more rationalizations, more bending of the narrative. It's the only way Giants football has been palatable for 5 years now.
Thus far, the decisions that the Giants made in the offseason look like they were very much the wrong decisions. And again, that's not because they are 0-2. It's because of how they look while playing in those games.
Expect the best but plan for the worst.
I’m still of that compete mindset, my friend. As I’ve opined, save for injuries and with AVERAGE OL play, we will compete. The 3 new OL have not been average as a whole, but I firmly believe they will mesh. If they don’t, we’re in big trouble
I predicted a 9-7 season and that they'd have a slow start. I had no idea the new Oline would be this bad.
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I’m still of that compete mindset, my friend. As I’ve opined, save for injuries and with AVERAGE OL play, we will compete. The 3 new OL have not been average as a whole, but I firmly believe they will mesh. If they don’t, we’re in big trouble
I predicted a 9-7 season and that they'd have a slow start. I had no idea the new Oline would be this bad.
If we underscore THIS BAD, no I didn’t expect it to this degree. Acclimation? Syncing? Meshing? I “knew” that would take time..
So am I. This is about what we actually see happening, not what we're hoping will happen.
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That's the drum I've been banging this offseason.
If you never draft a QB until a generational prospect comes along that makes the pick "easy", then you'll never end up with a QB. Your way suggests to only take a chance on a QB if he's a once a decade type player that appears to be an obvious hit.
In hindsight, that's the grade EA had on Eli, that he was generational.
Not drafting a QB.
Had we drafted a QB, there would not be a single thread advocating firing Dave Gettleman and Pat Shurmur being incompetent or fired. Not a single one.
From anybody, pro drafting QB or not.
This is wrong. Some people are upset about not drafting a QB. That's inherently tied to how well Barkley does long term, and so far he has looked good.
But most people are upset due to the lack of progress. The decision to not draft a QB was as much tied to the team's short term prospects with Eli as anything else, and now it's looking like all the changes we were sold on - Gettleman's 'hog mollies', Shurmur's offensive creativity - have yielded results no different than what we had last year, with an over his head McAdoo, Reese's squad and a ton of injuries.
If the Giants were doing OK now - not great, but just showed some signs of life and progress - the fan backlash wouldn't be anywhere near this bad. This isn't about the QB position, this is about the lack of confidence plan for the Giants, present and future.
That is indisputable.
If the Giants were doing OK now - not great, but just showed some signs of life and progress - the fan backlash wouldn't be anywhere near this bad. This isn't about the QB position, this is about the lack of confidence plan for the Giants, present and future.
I think the Giants would be OK and most of us happy if the Oline just played better. I am hoping to see those 5 get better each week. It's going to be crappy here until the blocking improves.
Give Eli time to locate a target and throw. Give Barkley a hole to run to once in a while.
If we'd drafted a QB #2, he would (or at least should) be playing, and Eli will have been released. Eli had an out in his contract where, had he been designated a post-June 1 cut, the Giants would have had $6.2M in dead money in 2018 and 2019. That was the time to move on from him.
We can release him after this year and have $6.2M in dead money in 2019...and Kyle Lauletta at QB.
It's amazing how many planets aligned for the Giants to transition from one franchise QB to a top franchise QB prospect. The high draft pick, the new GM and coach, the QB class, the out in Eli's contract...it really is stunning that they did what they did.
Player evaluation is not absolute. Everyone has a different.opinion.
What I do know? Barkley is clearly a generational talent at RB. His combination of size, speed, and.elusiveness is rare to say the least.
For the record I was very pro darnold pre draft but stop it with this dumb shit 2 days into these guys career.
RELAX. In a month when Darnold puts up some duds and Barkley helps us get some.wins.this is going to look idiotic.
It's amazing how many planets aligned for the Giants to transition from one franchise QB to a top franchise QB prospect. The high draft pick, the new GM and coach, the QB class, the out in Eli's contract...it really is stunning that they did what they did.
If we did take Darnold (no Barkley) jettisoned Eli, Would you be OK with having Darnold play behind this Oline? I'd think you'd need a better backup veteran QB to start most of the games this year.
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It's amazing how many planets aligned for the Giants to transition from one franchise QB to a top franchise QB prospect. The high draft pick, the new GM and coach, the QB class, the out in Eli's contract...it really is stunning that they did what they did.
If we did take Darnold (no Barkley) jettisoned Eli, Would you be OK with having Darnold play behind this Oline? I'd think you'd need a better backup veteran QB to start most of the games this year.
Could you imagine Darnold fluttering around with this OL, throwing up interception after interception, fumbling on sacks, etc (which is his reputation and the concern teams had with him)? Then the narrative would be “Gettleman needs to be fired! He picked the wrong guy! I knew he should have taken Rosen!”.
These guys all claim that they were willing to be patient if they took a QB. We all know that’s not true. The pitchforks would be out in force after two games of futility, making the threads we are seeing now look like child’s play.
Oh c'mon, you really want to sit there and say that if the Giants had drafted a QB, BBI would suddenly find patience and in unison decide not to criticize the shit product on the field?
You don't actually believe that, do you?
He was the best player in that draft. He is a Hall of Famer. he is probably the 2nd greatest WR in NFL history.
Even if you disagree with that, you would have to agree that is a better WR all-time than Eli, Ben or Rivers are QBs all-time
But would anyone redraft that and take Fitzgerald over Eli, Ben or Rivers?
Barkley being a hall of fame running back does not mean that they will contend for Super Bowls.
Isn't that what the goal is? To contend for Super Bowls?
A good QB in todays NFL you could argue is more valuable than a hall of fame level running back.
Philip Rivers is a very good QB, no one would argue that he's a better player than LaDanian Tomlinson, but I don't think there's an argument to be made that LT was more valuable to the Chargers than Rivers has been.
And Rivers hasn't even really won anything.
The Giants have zero chance to regularly contend without a franchise QB. Doesn't matter if Barkley is a hall of fame level player, if they have average or shit play at QB, they aren't going anywhere.
See no this is just bullshit. Serious bullshit. How the fuck do and so many others make this enormous leap that IF darnold wins a super bowl with the jets that he’d win that super bowl with the giants if drafted by the giants?????
How??? How and why is this ridiculousness continuously allowed to be the center talking point to this stupid premature debate??? Total fantasy speculative bullshit.
Barkley has a hof career but the team falls short of a title, who knows how short for all we know the giants actually made some serious playoffs noise a few times on Barkley’s back but never mind that! No super bowl? Bust! Darnold won one with the jets who built a great team that helped darnold? Welp, darnold obviously would have won one with nyg! Yes sir! Just bollocks!
This season is basically a colossal waste of time until this Offense finds stability thru an Offensive Line that works or a QB that can operate behind it. Right now we have neither.
So until that happens we will just sift thru players figuring out keepers and discards, and hopefully accumulate some core group of draft picks that are worth restructuring around.
Clearly Barkley was a really good pick, but in no way can he be described as the right pick or enough to make a difference...
This season is basically a colossal waste of time until this Offense finds stability thru an Offensive Line that works or a QB that can operate behind it. Right now we have neither.
So until that happens we will just sift thru players figuring out keepers and discards, and hopefully accumulate some core group of draft picks that are worth restructuring around.
Clearly Barkley was a really good pick, but in no way can he be described as the right pick or enough to make a difference...
Your last statement is part of the moronic plague that currently inhabits BBI which deal in absolutes based on ridiculous bullshit. Stop.
See no this is just bullshit. Serious bullshit. How the fuck do and so many others make this enormous leap that IF darnold wins a super bowl with the jets that he’d win that super bowl with the giants if drafted by the giants?????
How??? How and why is this ridiculousness continuously allowed to be the center talking point to this stupid premature debate??? Total fantasy speculative bullshit.
Barkley has a hof career but the team falls short of a title, who knows how short for all we know the giants actually made some serious playoffs noise a few times on Barkley’s back but never mind that! No super bowl? Bust! Darnold won one with the jets who built a great team that helped darnold? Welp, darnold obviously would have won one with nyg! Yes sir! Just bollocks!
It’s not, actually. Why the hell did Denni Green think Josh McNown or Shaun King were the answers at QB?
Personally, I thought Barkley was the best player in the draft and still believe that. However, I had the unpopular view of trading down and possibly targeting Jackson at QB.
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just like last year.
This season is basically a colossal waste of time until this Offense finds stability thru an Offensive Line that works or a QB that can operate behind it. Right now we have neither.
So until that happens we will just sift thru players figuring out keepers and discards, and hopefully accumulate some core group of draft picks that are worth restructuring around.
Clearly Barkley was a really good pick, but in no way can he be described as the right pick or enough to make a difference...
Your last statement is part of the moronic plague that currently inhabits BBI which deal in absolutes based on ridiculous bullshit. Stop.
Give me the alternative debate vs your jedi knight wannabe comments. And watch who you call a moron...
Before the draft, the following were universally accepted truths:
3. There were 6 or 7 blue chip prospects in this draft: Mayfield, Darnold, Allen, Rosen, Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson
After the draft, those previously accepted truths were frequently challenged by BBIers that wanted to talk themselves into Barkley being the right pick.
Talk about bending the narrative. Those QBs were "blue chip" prospects now the level of Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson? Jeez, then what were Elway, Peyton, or Luck? These guys weren't prospects on RG3's level, let alone the 2004 class of 3. Three of them were coming out of college too early and the fourth was short with questionable maturity and off the field decision-making. Once again, neither Darnold (who I would've drafted), Rosen, or Allen has the resume of a successful NFL QB. They sure as fuck aren't generational choices like Luck. They're guys with excellent physical upsides, but have flaws and are risky. If the Giants chose to bypass that for the prospect seen near unanimously (Mayock, Brandt, Jeremiah, Kiper, McShay) as the best player in the draft, I'm okay with that.
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More of that going on here. I feel the need to repeat this:
Before the draft, the following were universally accepted truths:
3. There were 6 or 7 blue chip prospects in this draft: Mayfield, Darnold, Allen, Rosen, Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson
After the draft, those previously accepted truths were frequently challenged by BBIers that wanted to talk themselves into Barkley being the right pick.
Talk about bending the narrative. Those QBs were "blue chip" prospects now the level of Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson? Jeez, then what were Elway, Peyton, or Luck? These guys weren't prospects on RG3's level, let alone the 2004 class of 3. Three of them were coming out of college too early and the fourth was short with questionable maturity and off the field decision-making. Once again, neither Darnold (who I would've drafted), Rosen, or Allen has the resume of a successful NFL QB. They sure as fuck aren't generational choices like Luck. They're guys with excellent physical upsides, but have flaws and are risky. If the Giants chose to bypass that for the prospect seen near unanimously (Mayock, Brandt, Jeremiah, Kiper, McShay) as the best player in the draft, I'm okay with that.
You can't force the issue. You invest millions in scouting every year and if your scouting department tells you that none of the QBs justify the pick, then it's the next man up. In this case, it was Barkley. I don't have a problem with that. Time will tell.
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Nothing wrong only this season was sacrificed without developing a young QB. In the long run it makes no difference. Just another year of torture watching this offense and then the QB hopefully will be drafted
So you have already determined that Lauletta is worthless like Webb?
No idea, I think it would be awesome if Lauletta turns out to be Eli's successor. I don't think it's likely given his lack of arm strength, but it would be great.
He was the best player in that draft. He is a Hall of Famer. he is probably the 2nd greatest WR in NFL history.
Even if you disagree with that, you would have to agree that is a better WR all-time than Eli, Ben or Rivers are QBs all-time
But would anyone redraft that and take Fitzgerald over Eli, Ben or Rivers?
Ummmm yeah, the Chargers would. They already had Drew Brees, Ladanian Tomlinson, and Gates. Fitzgerald over Rivers is the pick in a redraft.
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Larry Fitzgerald?
He was the best player in that draft. He is a Hall of Famer. he is probably the 2nd greatest WR in NFL history.
Even if you disagree with that, you would have to agree that is a better WR all-time than Eli, Ben or Rivers are QBs all-time
But would anyone redraft that and take Fitzgerald over Eli, Ben or Rivers?
Ummmm yeah, the Chargers would. They already had Drew Brees, Ladanian Tomlinson, and Gates. Fitzgerald over Rivers is the pick in a redraft.
Schottenheimer was the coach. He loved to run the ball, control clock and play solid D. They had more than enough offensive pieces.
Manning was a great pick to get Rivers. They weren’t going to take Fitz #1.
It was a foregone conclusion that Manning was going number one leading up to the draft. Months in advance.
That was never the case with one of the QB's this year.
It's not like Fitzgerald was the consensus best player in the draft that year OVER the QB's.
Gallery was a dud, but it is really difficult to pick out huge busts. Even guys like:
Lee Evans
Tommy Harris
Vince Wilfork
Jonathan Vilma
DJ Williams
Will Smith
Steven Jackson
Jason Babin
Chris Gamble
Ben Watson
All had or are having great careers.
And the 1st two picks of the 2nd round?
Karlos Dansby
Chris Snee
An awesome draft
Quarterbacks are made by where and to whom they are drafted.
The best indicator of success for a quarterback in the NFL is the stability of the coaching staff. Which is of course chicken and egg, a coach is going to get more runway if he has a good QB and a ring.
If the Giants can get some order and stability in the organization and not have a half decade of blown drafts, they don't have to pick a top 5 QB to build championship level team.
They need Hernandez to pan out, Solder to play up to his career average, and then add much more talent to the line.
I would have started over and picked Darnold. You don't have to draft the best guy, but it doesn't hurt.
What's the most sad is the organization opted to go with Manning because they believed he still had it and believe in him. Then they went and surrounded him with dog suit on offensive line and they will never know whether they were right.
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Larry Fitzgerald?
He was the best player in that draft. He is a Hall of Famer. he is probably the 2nd greatest WR in NFL history.
Even if you disagree with that, you would have to agree that is a better WR all-time than Eli, Ben or Rivers are QBs all-time
But would anyone redraft that and take Fitzgerald over Eli, Ben or Rivers?
Ummmm yeah, the Chargers would. They already had Drew Brees, Ladanian Tomlinson, and Gates. Fitzgerald over Rivers is the pick in a redraft.
With the benefit of hindsight on Brees' shoulder, sure thing. That's what kept them from extending him and drove them to draft Rivers. Those concerns are also what kept Saban from getting Brees in Miami.
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In comment 14085934 twostepgiants said:
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Larry Fitzgerald?
He was the best player in that draft. He is a Hall of Famer. he is probably the 2nd greatest WR in NFL history.
Even if you disagree with that, you would have to agree that is a better WR all-time than Eli, Ben or Rivers are QBs all-time
But would anyone redraft that and take Fitzgerald over Eli, Ben or Rivers?
Ummmm yeah, the Chargers would. They already had Drew Brees, Ladanian Tomlinson, and Gates. Fitzgerald over Rivers is the pick in a redraft.
With the benefit of hindsight on Brees' shoulder, sure thing. That's what kept them from extending him and drove them to draft Rivers. Those concerns are also what kept Saban from getting Brees in Miami.
Rivers was drafted two years before Brees hurt his shoulder. He sat the bench while Brees lit it up for two years.
In fact, Brees's injury saved the Chargers from disaster, as they were going to have to make a very, very hard decision had Brees not injure his shoulder at the end of his contract.
In addition to all the angst Chargers fans have toward Eli, they're still pretty pissed at Schottenheimer for leaving Brees in that game to get injured. IIRC it was a meaningless game for them at the time.
My point wasnt about those specific teams at that time.
My point is that Eli, Ben, Rivers are more valuable players than Fitzgerald even though Fitzgerald is “better” than them. Fitz is clearly a better all-time WR than those guys are all-time QBs and Fitz is a guaranteed HoFer.
Any team needing a QB and a WR, knowing what they know about their careers, would take Eli, Ben and Rivers over Fitzgerald.
Obviously if you already have the QB covered with another Hall of Famer, then you take Fitzgerald.
'The RB' vs 'The QB'
I have said for years - this team 'ain't never' done shit without well above average OL play.
You have 22 or whatever positions and the trade down.
There's s million ways to split it.
They already had $7M invested in Hyde and Johnson. And they got fortunate to grab Chubb in the second round. So they have a sold crop of backs.
And after last night, I doubt we’ll hear Barkley’s name for a while in Cleveland.
The pick of Ward was heavily criticized. But right now, he looks like a huge player on their D. He looks outstanding in single coverage.
Very true. I am with you too.
Whats so interesting? A team that has been rudderless without a decent QB for decades goes QB over a RB with the #1 pick, and then even picks a RB in the next round and its interesting?
why...
This was a great thread but the your not going to know how this draft turned out for another 2-3 years. Right now the team sucks because the OL is playing like complete crap. If you want to point to one thing that has held this team back over the past 5 years. It is the damn OL, and that is not for lack of trying. It just has not worked out. Flowers, Richburg, Pugh, the early demise of Snee. It has been an unmitigated disaster.
I hoped we’d take a QB, but was most high on Mayfield, and felt the others were more of a risk. I’m think DG felt the same.