Saquon Barkley is a terrific talent. I have zero doubts that he will be a great player in this league.
That being said, is there anyone still left on BBI who actually believes he was the correct pick for this franchise? I'm not being a smart ass, I'd legitimately like to hear why if you believe that.
This franchise has no real plan for the future right now. Gettleman has not earned the benefit of the doubt. He very clearly was wrong in his evaluation of the current team. He clearly believed they were ready to win now, which is obviously very far from the truth. He clearly believed Eli had a lot left in the tank. That doesn't seem to be the case.
The single most important job of a new GM is properly evaluating your current roster. A lot of people on BBI will say this is hindsight, but it's really not. Many of us on BBI didn't believe this team was ready to win now. A lot of our worst fears have been realized. Some will point to 2016 as a reason to go for it this year that they are actually more talented than they were in 2016. The problem I have with that is 2016 is the only year in the last what, 5 years, that the team hasn't sucked shit. That entire season seemed very flukey. They won a shit load of close games. The defense played way above their heads. Eli did not have a great year.
It's more than fair to be worried about the direction of this franchise with John Mara and Gettleman running the show. Most of the decisions John Mara has made have blown up in his face. There is no way to know this for sure, but I'd guess that DG is the only GM that the Giants could have hired that would have taken Barkley. His comments in the press are the most frightening of all. Ripping analytics and talking as if we're still in the 1980's.
Right or wrong, I also think DG's age played a role in the decisions made in the off-season. He's 67 years old. He's unlikely to be thinking of where this franchise will be in a decade.
It's still hard to fathom that anyone could watch the Giants the last 4-5 years and thought that taking a running back #2 overall was a smart business decision.
A lot of people on BBI in the off-season also thought that Davis Webb was the legitimate future of the Giants. Yet another thing i'll never be able to wrap my head around. He couldn't get off the bench last year and play over Geno Smith for a regime that drafted him. That told me all I needed to know about him.
Eli Manning is not the main problem with this team. But the fact is he's 37 years old, has not played well in years, and with the current roster it's not going to get any better. He could have Barry Sanders in his prime back there and it wouldn't make much difference. The line is a total train wreck. Eli is clearly shot mentally playing behind this line for the last 5 years. Physically he still has something left but each year that passes he's going to have less and less left.
I actually feel bad for Barkley. It's not his fault that the roster sucks.
The Giants desperately need a QB of the future. 2019 doesn't look to be a good year to need a QB, the likely top QB has a lot of character concerns. Barkley could stand on his head every game and without a QB for the future and a new offensive line none of it will ever matter.
John Mara has really put this franchise in a terrible situation. There is a legitimate argument to be made that the New York Giants are in the worst shape for the future of any team in the sport.
Yes, it's only 2 games into the season. But we've seen this movie too many times in the last 5 years.
The owner can't be fired, but he hasn't given any Giants fan reason to be confident in any decision that he makes. He totally botched the Eli situation last year, made the wrong hire at HC in McAdoo, kept Jerry Reese as the GM for way too long, stayed within his comfort zone when he hired Gettleman. His batting average is close to .00 in the last 5 years when it comes to decision making.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing from people who still believe that Barkley was the correct pick for this franchise. Every season that goes by without being a contender is a season wasted of Barkley's prime.
This really was not that hard to see coming.
However, I am concerned about our Oline. They are being made to look ridiculous out there. They made the Cowboys look like the Jacksonville and Bears DLines -- and I think the Cowboys Dline is not anywhere's as good as Da Bears or Jacksonville.
If Eli makes it to the Bears Game Dec 2nd - and our Oline keeps playing the way they are playing, that's the night he's going to end up being maimed for life -- but that's big if because we have to play the Eagles twice before that -- and their Dline is definitely up to the task of sacking Eli hard all game
then there's the Saints, the Panthers, the Falcons, and the Redskins DLines to contend with before Dec 2nd as well, and they will have watched the tape of the last two games. Right now I have a hard time believing that Eli will be healthy enough to play in the Bears game
God help us and Eli Manning
It was about the next decade.
DG can deny it all he wants, but the numbers don't lie, RB's primes are significantly shorter than most positions. Barkley's prime started 2 games ago.
It doesn't bother anyone in here when the Giants GM says that arguments backed up by numbers are a crock but then says that the RB was touched by the hand of God?
It sounds like you don't like Gettleman and are looking for proof you are right. You may get it one day, but you don't have it yet. It's absolutely fair to question Gettleman as the plan so far isn't working and everyone is entitled to an opinion. What you are not entitled to is "why did the Giants pass on a franchise QB?" because there simply is no evidence that they did, just an opinion that they did.
Gettleman was well aware of the pressure on the #2 pick. He looked to trade down but the offers sucked (his hot dogs and pretzels comment).
So you are left with making a pick that you want to be sure you hit on. And as I said on the thread the other day, my preference was to pick a QB and set up a Mahomes situation where they would sit behind Eli for one year and take over in 2019. However, the scouts were all lukewarm on these QBs. There was no automatic guy that was a clear franchise QB in the vein of Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck coming out. They had talent but had enough blemishes to be worried.
Gettleman simply wouldn't accept that risk with a prospect like Barkley staring him in the face. And yes, I think the love affair with Eli after last years debacle weighed in that the Giants convinced themselves that Eli wasn't done and had another couple of years in him to allow them to keep searching.
Ultimately, in a game of risk management, they banked on the fact that Barkley was a sure thing who will produce for 5-8 years at a high level. And that level is at Hall of Fame quality. They didn't feel the same way about Darnold or Rosen or any of the QBs. And to miss at QB at the #2 pick would cripple the franchise.
It was about the next decade.
DG can deny it all he wants, but the numbers don't lie, RB's primes are significantly shorter than most positions. Barkley's prime started 2 games ago.
It doesn't bother anyone in here when the Giants GM says that arguments backed up by numbers are a crock but then says that the RB was touched by the hand of God?
Wrong or right draft pick decisions cannot be made in game 2 of their rookie seasons.
If Darnold shits the bed and Barkley winds up like Marshall Faulk was it still the wrong decision?
You can say what you would have done, but you can't evaluate the right or wrong for a few years.
I think it's clear Gettleman or Shurmur and/or others did not believe Darnold or Allen or Rosen were future franchise QB's.
Someone please explain to me why the Giants future is so hopeless, I'm trying to understand.
Even after cutting Webb loose, the Giants have a developmental QB in Lauletta and all their picks moving forward.
Maybe NYG will like a QB in this year's crop better than last year's? If they suck as much as you think they will, then they'll be at the top of the draft again.
The Rams took Gurley first, then Goff, most likely because that's just what their pick positioning dictated. That seems to be working out pretty well, no?
NYG took the draft's best player with the 2nd pick and so far Barkley has looked every bit as good as he did in college. I'd say they did great.
It doesn't bother anyone in here when the Giants GM says that arguments backed up by numbers are a crock but then says that the RB was touched by the hand of God?
What numbers? What analytics? This isn't baseball where the game is exactly the same from Little League thru MLB. There is little comparison from CFB to NFL, especially with QBs. Even the oline is different. There are certainly measurables..strength, explosiveness, speed and size. But those have been the same for ever, and I'm certain DG is not dismissing those.
I wanted a QB. I didn't think the value was there for a RB at #2. Barkley is a tremendous talent, and seems liek a great kid, but if we are in QB purgatory for the next 5 or so years, we will regret this pick.
The draft isn't even about 1 year, much less 2 games.
The wrong move was cutting bait on Webb. A QB going into his 2nd season, you have to have a little more patience with him to see what you have with him. Webb may never be anything in the NFL, but many QBs grow a great deal from year 2 to 3, and DG kicked him to the curb. It was premature knowing we have a 37 year old QB and now only and 4th rounder as a potential replacement.
But, the draft produces QBs every year, and if he gets his QB in the 2019 draft, everything will be fine as long as it isn't a bust pick.
Barkley was the safe pick.
I do believe Barkley will be great, but I don't think it will translate into much difference as far as wins and losses go.
The possibility is also there that Barkley won't live up the hype. We all (myself included) act like it would be impossible for him to be a bust, but it's still a possibility. Trent Richardson was not as highly thought of but no one thought he would bust and he did.
And I have no way to tell if that was the right or wrong move. Apparently a lot of other people are able to go through the mental gymnastics to say it was a mistake.
The only thing that's been clear to me is that people thinking they have an answer now or anytime during this season really are just exposing themselves as being reactionary and not very good at understanding how evaluations of moves like these are truly made.
It is pure frustration, a joy that gets spread daily in these types of threads.
That being said, I would have picked Darnold and if you put a gun to my head, I would say Mook's entire post will ultimately be proven right in a year or two down the line.
Some might say Sanders, but SB is even twitchier and smoother.
They just didn t want to put Eli in that position.
Some, get pissed Off that we who wanted a quarterback, won t accept their opinion as to why our logic is flawed. They often state their opinion as if it is fact, and wonder how many times they are going to have to explain it to us.
Look at it from the other side...why is your opinion for a QB the only answer? You are saying "Fuck You" Barkley people, we are the only correct opinion. Yes your logic can be flawed and the people who wanted Barkley are entitled to their opinion and it is not wrong.
Well you Darnold people are doing the exact same thing..Darnold was the only pick as if fact and you keep explaining too.
I thought the Giants would take Rosen or Darnold during the draft. Honestly, either one, behind this line would likey be hurt. Rosen might be out of football already. Hopefully the OL gets its head out of its collective rear ends.
I was honestly hoping for a trade down to amass picks during the draft - this team has so many holes. Our OL sucks, our DL can't pass rush, our LBs can't pass cover, our CB depth is weak. Gettlemen has his job cut out for him.
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He fell in love with a player and wasn't going to let anything change his mind.
Sounds a lot like the multitude of people who wanted Darnold, no?
I wish there was an icon or emoji for a Mic drop. Damn you’re good, even if you’re Fat..😂
Barkley was the safe pick.
I do believe Barkley will be great, but I don't think it will translate into much difference as far as wins and losses go.
The possibility is also there that Barkley won't live up the hype. We all (myself included) act like it would be impossible for him to be a bust, but it's still a possibility. Trent Richardson was not as highly thought of but no one thought he would bust and he did.
Barkley might be great. Odell is great. What’s the NYG record with Odell? It’s pretty shitty. Eli’s crappy play is a significant reason for that. The consistently good playoff teams get consistently good QB play. The NYG haven’t since SB 46. The record since then, which is absolutely atrocious, backs it up. Yeah other factors are involved, but Eli needs to be upgraded. This team won’t contend for anything but top 5 picks until they do so.
b) there aren't good QB's in practically every draft and that if the Giants didn't take one this year - they'll never get another opportunity. Teams do what they have to do to get their QB. If there is a guy on the board in the future that they feel is can't miss, the Giants will put themselves in a position to grab him.
This was not the year to draft a QB. I loved the Barkley pick and still do. But the only other thing I would have done differently is trade the #2 for more picks and strengthened the OL. If you're going for rebuild, thats the right way to do it. Drafting a QB now would have been almost as short-sighted as drafting Barkley.
If Gentleman is able to build on the oline next season and Solder and Hernandez get better through this season we will have a team that is a great fit for a new QB coming in. I think of Rothlisberger his first two years although there was a better defense. I also think of Russell Wilson in this regards as well.
If we can have a strong team built and then have a QB on a rookie contract it sets up multiple years of success.
Although the Giants are hoping to win now with Eli, I think they were being realistic and planning for the long term as well.
Zero idea whether or not Lauletta will be our future. I’m all in on Shurmur’s ability to see what need to be seen in a QB prospect. Time will tell
The Jet-Giant preseason game thread was filled with all this Darnold hyperbole.
Just remember this, Darnold could lead the Jets to the next 2 AFC title games and still not wind up being the guy. Playing at a franchise QB level is the easier part for a lot of these guys, the "staying power" is the harder part.
Let's see what happens.
I don’t really give a shit who our QB is with an OLine that can’t perform.
The offense wasn't one Barkley away from being competitive, while the defensive core was pretty strong and would have benefited from a pass rusher. RBs tend to have a shorter shelf life than DEs do, and this was a deep draft for RBs so we could have picked up a lesser talented back in the 2nd round or later.
Instead, we added another player to an offense that's still completely inept. Think about that for a second - we pay $20M for a QB, an ungodly sum to a WR, and spent a second overall pick (and pay top dollar capwise) on a RB, and we have an offense that is absolutely terrible.
I keep reading that Gettleman knew this, and expected it to be a multi year rebuild - in which case, picking the RB makes even less sense.
At some point we have to come to the realization that the Giants don't know what the fuck they're doing, and they haven't for some time now. In fact, it's very likely that the only thing that kept them competitive was Eli in his prime, and that with age and the beatings that prime window closed a lot sooner than we expected.
Just remember this, Darnold could lead the Jets to the next 2 AFC title games and still not wind up being the guy. Playing at a franchise QB level is the easier part for a lot of these guys, the "staying power" is the harder part.
Let's see what happens.
Two QBs come to mind...Snachez and Kaepernick.
Not that I think Darnold isn't better than either one, but maybe he isn't...
If that option was available.
So Darnold can take the team to multiple championship games and be the wrong pick, but Barkley can continue a sub 4.0 YPC and have been the right pick.
What exactly are we trying to do, here? Isn't the goal to win football games?
They could have picked the best defensive player on the board and built a solid D that could have made the Giants a tough out while they got their offensive shit together. Instead, they got another expensive skill position piece we can't use this year.
What is relevant:
Should we still play Eli Manning when games become irrelevant and we are officially eliminated from playoff consideration? Or, should the Giants even wait that long?
I'm struggling mightily to stay positive and to believe the season can be turned around. But what if the game in Dallas portends 2017 playing out all over again in 2018?
We can't predict the future, but we do know this:
A team that sucks at the LOS ain't going anywhere, and neither Eli Manning nor any other QB can do a damn thing about it.
So, at some point in time, I think the question becomes:
Why play Eli Manning if -- and when -- the games become irrelevant?
(1) Eli still gives us the best chance of winning, whether the games are meaningful or not. Or, in the words of Herm Edwards: "You play to win the game";
(2) Sentimental value that harks back to better times;
(3) John Mara doesn't want to admit to his fanbase that the Giants are throwing in the towel;
(4) Why ruin Kyle Lauletta's young career (ala David Carr's first season with Houston Texans) by getting his head bashed in every time he drops back.;
(5) Some other reason?
Barkley is a great rb who'd be good for a team that pretty much had a offense that is pretty much stable (ol, qb)
Everyone says, when time comes for eli to leave, no problem just draft a qb or trade for one like they're a dime a dozen like rbs.
2020 may be next good class for QBs but I fear they missed out this past draft on the qb..I fear we'll be looking at another Dave brown , kent Graham era coming which we'll be pointing to as holding this team back for doing some things great.
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In comment 14082836 Gman11 said:
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drafted Darnold then they would still have a crappy offensive line, their main running back would be a mid-round draft pick (Gallman) and Eli would still be the starting QB.
So, tell me how drafting a QB would have helped them this year.
It’s not about this year. This year was never going to be good. I’d rather be 0-2 (en route to 0-7) with all these problems and Gallman as RB1 and Darnold waiting in the wings.
Which is why I’d probably feel better if the NYG were the Cards. They’re arguably the worst team in the nfl, but they have their future QB already on the roster. That also means they won’t panic and reach for an inferior QB prospect next April which is my concern for the NYG.
They don't know they have their future QB on the roster. Its all speculation at this point. Pro QB guys always take it for granted that all these guys are franchise QB's when history shows only 1 will be.
But based on what has happened so far, how much better would we be had we taken Nelson at no. 2 and Hernandez in the same spot that we took him.
It has proved once again that it does not matter if you have the greatest QB in the world or the greatest WR or TE, if you cannot block up front it means nothing.
Football has always started on the offensive and defensive lines and that does not change. If you can't block, forget it. Right now, our skill players are being wasted and we have wasted the past six years of a HOF quarterback.
Unless this gets better quickly, I cannot see Eli making it to October.
+1
How can one watch the past two games, see the talent that Barkley has and go on unhinged rants that he's not the right pick?
And in doing so, why is this being debated strictly as Barkley vs. a QB?
If you are concerned after the 1st two games, the real issue is still the OL. So if you really want to debate the pick, it isn't Barkley vs. Darnold. It is Barkley vs. trading down to amass a bunch of picks to be used on the OL.
It is a fucking joke at this point. "Win now" should become a billboard hoisted over every fucking chucklehead who can't get past the fact we didn't pick a QB. Doesn't mean shit, but a truckload of people keep using it as some fucking mantra.
What sick post...period
Wasn't there last draft.
This is why I HATED Gettleman's dismissive attitude towards positional value. Sure, things COULD work out his way and Barkley has a Tomlinson-like career where he's dominant for a long time. That's not a high-percentage play, though, and given the situation this team faces right now, I think there's a very good possibility that Barkley's timeline just does not match up very well with the Giants' timeline.
in fact, just last week a poster reiterated that if Barkley is a HoF player and Darnold is simply an average QB, then Barkley was 100% the wrong pick. Logic hasn't been very prevalent on BBI in quite some time.
Saquon has the 6th highest cap hit for a RB. That’s not a good way to rebuild. You want RBs on the cheap.
Not entertaining trade down offers is GM malpractice. What if the Jets would have offered #3 and 2019 #1? You could’ve gotten saquon at lower cap hit and future assets.
Trading away picks for Ogletree was short sighted.
Using 3rd rounder next year in supplemental draft was insane.
Did i mention the team is in a terrible cap situation?
Gettleman makes Phil Jackson look like a good GM.
For once, I agree with you. Nelson probably was the best pick for this team at this time.
At some point we have to come to the realization that the Giants don't know what the fuck they're doing, and they haven't for some time now. In fact, it's very likely that the only thing that kept them competitive was Eli in his prime, and that with age and the beatings that prime window closed a lot sooner than we expected.
Yeah...there have been so many things that've happened over the past 3 or 4 years with this organization that leave me wondering if Mara really has any idea what he's doing.
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So Darnold can take the team to multiple championship games and be the wrong pick, but Barkley can continue a sub 4.0 YPC and have been the right pick.
in fact, just last week a poster reiterated that if Barkley is a HoF player and Darnold is simply an average QB, then Barkley was 100% the wrong pick. Logic hasn't been very prevalent on BBI in quite some time.
They don't look at it that way Fats. They are right and the only pick was a QB and everything else is background noise. It is a common theme....
So Darnold can take the team to multiple championship games and be the wrong pick, but Barkley can continue a sub 4.0 YPC and have been the right pick.
What exactly are we trying to do, here? Isn't the goal to win football games?
They could have picked the best defensive player on the board and built a solid D that could have made the Giants a tough out while they got their offensive shit together. Instead, they got another expensive skill position piece we can't use this year.
Mark Sanchez took his team to two championship games also. If you told anyone before the draft that Sam Darnold would be the next Mark Sanchez, passing on him was absolutely the right move.
The problem with the OP was the assumption that Darnold is a franchise QB because of the hype going into the draft. If history has shown anything, QBs projected to go at the top of the draft are not all sure things.