Saquon Barkley is a terrific talent. I have zero doubts that he will be a great player in this league.
That being said, is there anyone still left on BBI who actually believes he was the correct pick for this franchise? I'm not being a smart ass, I'd legitimately like to hear why if you believe that.
This franchise has no real plan for the future right now. Gettleman has not earned the benefit of the doubt. He very clearly was wrong in his evaluation of the current team. He clearly believed they were ready to win now, which is obviously very far from the truth. He clearly believed Eli had a lot left in the tank. That doesn't seem to be the case.
The single most important job of a new GM is properly evaluating your current roster. A lot of people on BBI will say this is hindsight, but it's really not. Many of us on BBI didn't believe this team was ready to win now. A lot of our worst fears have been realized. Some will point to 2016 as a reason to go for it this year that they are actually more talented than they were in 2016. The problem I have with that is 2016 is the only year in the last what, 5 years, that the team hasn't sucked shit. That entire season seemed very flukey. They won a shit load of close games. The defense played way above their heads. Eli did not have a great year.
It's more than fair to be worried about the direction of this franchise with John Mara and Gettleman running the show. Most of the decisions John Mara has made have blown up in his face. There is no way to know this for sure, but I'd guess that DG is the only GM that the Giants could have hired that would have taken Barkley. His comments in the press are the most frightening of all. Ripping analytics and talking as if we're still in the 1980's.
Right or wrong, I also think DG's age played a role in the decisions made in the off-season. He's 67 years old. He's unlikely to be thinking of where this franchise will be in a decade.
It's still hard to fathom that anyone could watch the Giants the last 4-5 years and thought that taking a running back #2 overall was a smart business decision.
A lot of people on BBI in the off-season also thought that Davis Webb was the legitimate future of the Giants. Yet another thing i'll never be able to wrap my head around. He couldn't get off the bench last year and play over Geno Smith for a regime that drafted him. That told me all I needed to know about him.
Eli Manning is not the main problem with this team. But the fact is he's 37 years old, has not played well in years, and with the current roster it's not going to get any better. He could have Barry Sanders in his prime back there and it wouldn't make much difference. The line is a total train wreck. Eli is clearly shot mentally playing behind this line for the last 5 years. Physically he still has something left but each year that passes he's going to have less and less left.
I actually feel bad for Barkley. It's not his fault that the roster sucks.
The Giants desperately need a QB of the future. 2019 doesn't look to be a good year to need a QB, the likely top QB has a lot of character concerns. Barkley could stand on his head every game and without a QB for the future and a new offensive line none of it will ever matter.
John Mara has really put this franchise in a terrible situation. There is a legitimate argument to be made that the New York Giants are in the worst shape for the future of any team in the sport.
Yes, it's only 2 games into the season. But we've seen this movie too many times in the last 5 years.
The owner can't be fired, but he hasn't given any Giants fan reason to be confident in any decision that he makes. He totally botched the Eli situation last year, made the wrong hire at HC in McAdoo, kept Jerry Reese as the GM for way too long, stayed within his comfort zone when he hired Gettleman. His batting average is close to .00 in the last 5 years when it comes to decision making.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing from people who still believe that Barkley was the correct pick for this franchise. Every season that goes by without being a contender is a season wasted of Barkley's prime.
This really was not that hard to see coming.
The Giants have zero chance to regularly contend without a franchise QB. Doesn't matter if Barkley is a hall of fame level player, if they have average or shit play at QB, they aren't going anywhere.
True for all teams. Even having a very good QB dosen't guarantee you a SB title.
You mean the greatest RB of his generation, maybe ever?
That would be like saying you shouldn't draft a QB high because he can't overcome team deficiencies and pointing to Dan Marino.
Truly moronic.
We're talking about positional value.
Moronic was expecting ANY RB, Barkley or otherwise - to be able to run behind this line.
And yet, that's exactly what we did.
It's still early - but I had zero faith in Gettleman when he was hired, and those early results are proving me right, unfortunately. You guys can keep at it with the pom-poms, at least I know there are some sane people left out there.
The QB/RB debate, 2 games in - Dan Schneier - ( New Window )
I hope Barkley has a long long career with us but typically QB's have longer ones, and there were quite a few quality picks for us at QB that could have had longer ones that could have been built and rebuilt around .
Sorry this was for section125
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In comment 14084000 JonC said:
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but there's also a significant amount of pain that has to be endured to ride out and get rid of the Reese era too.
It's still early, and if they wind up 2-14 we're picking high again as a reward for the pain.
My concern is that there's a dichotomy between what management expects and what's happening on the field - and I consider it a red flag if management thinks the team is closer to contending than it actually is. I'm concerned that there were steps taken this past off-season that wouldn't have been made if DG thought they were going to be a bad football team again.
I'm very much a DG skeptic for now.
It could be they're entirely terrible at their jobs so far, but I think it more likely it's just fan expectations being higher than reasonable.
I'd be fine if that's the case (the fan expectations part, not the terrible at their jobs part).
...
No one told this lie at all. Except Webb's mom. Just stop it.
I absolutely think that Barkley was the best player in the past draft class. But I dont believe he will be anywhere near as valuable as more than a few guys. Taking a RB that high when you arent ready to win is bad business
Eli was not without flaws coming out of college. That draft class has turned out great, but coming into that draft all of the QB prospects had flaws.
Here are the flaws I'm referring to...
Darnold - Redshirt sophomore with 26 career starts and a lot of turnovers. As I mentioned before, no QB who left school as a redshirt sophomore has ever won a Super Bowl and most flame out of the league.
Josh Allen - There isn't one successful current NFL QB who completed less that 60% of his passes in college their entire time in college. None of his college numbers are particularly impressive. In addition, he did that at a non-Power 5 school.
Rosen - Between injuries, numbers that didn't particularly stand out, lack of team success, and unknown off the field questions (at least to the fans), Rosen's outstanding arm and mechanics never really amounted to anything.
They were still thought of highly because their physical traits. The only QB with a resume matching the 3 guys from 2004 is Mayfield, but he had the least desirable physical traits of the 4 QBs.
Eli was in college for 5 years, started for 3 full seasons, had quality numbers when you consider the competition, and had team success. Rivers was a 4 year starter with excellent numbers. Big Ben was in college for 4 years, started 3 seasons, and had terrific numbers. When you look at successful QBs in the NFL, you see a lot more of the resume of the 2004 class than the 2018 group. And obviously physical talent is important too.
I think literally everyone recognizes the importance of the QB position in the sport. But the 2018 class isn't the elite Elway/Peyton/Luck level of prospects. They're not even the 2004 class level of QB prospects. In that case, I'm perfectly comfortable with the Giants taking the best overall player in the draft.
I know that. But the moves they made in the off-season were not long term strategy moves. Signing a 30 year old Solder, going all in on Eli, drafting a RB with the #2 overall pick. Everything they did in the off-season was short sighted to me at the time they did it.
I dont think you'll find one person out there who would say that this years QB class is even close to comparable to last years. This isn't going to be the year to be picking high if you need a QB.
Tank for Tua.
I have no interest in building teams to merely be "pretty good"
I don't see a path to winning a Super Bowl until they have a QB in place. Regardless of how good SB is.
I would not draft any running back #2 overall unless i felt i had a team ready to win within the next couple seasons. If the Giants management felt they were ready to win in 2018 or 2019 with this roster, then we're fucked.
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In comment 14084013 BrettNYG10 said:
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In comment 14084000 JonC said:
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but there's also a significant amount of pain that has to be endured to ride out and get rid of the Reese era too.
It's still early, and if they wind up 2-14 we're picking high again as a reward for the pain.
My concern is that there's a dichotomy between what management expects and what's happening on the field - and I consider it a red flag if management thinks the team is closer to contending than it actually is. I'm concerned that there were steps taken this past off-season that wouldn't have been made if DG thought they were going to be a bad football team again.
I'm very much a DG skeptic for now.
It could be they're entirely terrible at their jobs so far, but I think it more likely it's just fan expectations being higher than reasonable.
I'd be fine if that's the case (the fan expectations part, not the terrible at their jobs part).
We all want to start a brand new season flush with optimism and belief. We all want to believe the 2018 team would be more like the 2016 team and not the 2017 team. I felt we'd have to improve significantly to have a shot at 7-8 wins, but it would feel like progress if they played the game the right way and went down swinging.
I don't love the DG hire, didn't in January and don't now. It felt/feels short-sighted and I suspect it will be short-lived. But, for now I'm hoping they know better than we do.
Think back to when we played the Rams in London 2 years ago. The Rams were a rudderless franchise going nowhere. The Giants were starting to kick ass with a young and upcoming Head Coach who even had injuries figured out!
Outside of the Browns and the Patriots, year to year records in the NFL don't typically mean a whole lot.
Some of you, not sure if you're going for the high drama effect, are saying things like "QB hell", "destined for an era of losing"
We don't know who Barkley is yet. We don't know who Darnold is yet. We don't know what kind of opportunities to build the team we will have in front of us.
Eli did not sign a 10 year contract yesterday. They did not trade 2 firsts for Khalil Mack last week. Their head coach is a young man. They have all their picks.
Relax.
There isn't an argument to be made??
With Tomlinson, the Chargers won the division 5 times, having more than 10 wins 4 seasons.
Without Tomlinson, the Chargers haven't won the division nor won 10 games.
I think there's actually a pretty strong argument that Tomlinson was more valuable, and certainly not the dismissive idea there isn't an argument.
Can perspectives get any more whacked around here??
Chad Forbes
@NFLDraftBites
Weekly Reminder.... #Giants passed on Sam Darnold and skipped evaluating QBs because ownership hired ‘Yes Men’ who’d commit to Eli Manning for 2018-. Giants are back to the 1970s pre Parcells & George Young when John Mara’s father was running the franchise into the ground... sad.
10:58 PM - Sep 16, 2018
They most definitely evaluated QB's. They were at the QB workouts for the Combine as well as Pro days for the top prospects.
What's next?
How about...Eli Manning actually ran the NYG draft this year instead of Dave G?
How about...NYG really wanted Darnold but drafted Barkley to appease Beckham for contract leverage?
Any other conspiracy theories we can come up with?
With our Oline play, no QB would be any good here. None.
and both guys would be killed behind this Oline. As an aside, Lauletta's ball speed was measured at 52 and Watson's was 45!
What has Barkley done that says he looks like the best player in the draft hands down?
Not saying he hasn't played well, but outside of one huge run against Jacksonville, his YPC I believe is under 3.
Yes, Jacksonville has a very good defense and Dallas has a solid defense, but it's not like he's been lighting the world on fire. He's been solid, but hands down the best player in the draft? Denzel Ward was terrific week 1 and had a solid game last week.
2004 Brees wins comeback player of the year, and they go 12-4.
When the Chargers didn't have a QB for LT's first three seasons, they were 17-31.
You point to Rivers never winning a division title without Tomlinson. Yet Tomlinson was a shell of himself in 2009 and the Chargers went 13-3.
Philip Rivers has been more valuable to the Chargers than LaDanian Tomlinson was. 2015 and 2016 were the first two years that the Chargers sucked since Rivers got drafted. 2012 is the only other year that they were below .500 at 7-9.
Tomlinson would be close to a best case scenario for Barkley as far as their careers. And he basically fell off of a cliff after his 7th season.
We can not waste Barkley's prime. His prime isn't 5 years from now. If it doesn't start this year then it starts next year.
This has been disproven again, and again, and again. People keep trying to re-word it but are really still saying the same thing. Now we keep hearing the same BS buzz words/phrases; Win now, must win, rebuild, blah blah blah. Just stop already.
Look, it's really quite simple. Here's the last SB winners not named Eli Manning;
Nick Foles: Drafted in the 3rd round, traded away and the got him back in another trade (for a steal). He has 'some' mobility. SB MVP.
-Carson Wentz did most of the work to get them there IMHO but Foles DID get it done through the post-season, into the SB, and grabbed the MVP. He's a mobile QBs, that got hurt, using his mobility.
Tom Brady: Drafted IN THE 6TH ROUND. Not going to bother listing his accomplishments. He is the GOAT at this point. I wouldn't consider him mobile and he won his latest SB AT AGE 39.
Peyton Manning: Drafted #1. OK here you go right. Wait. He got his 2nd SB AT AGE 39. Also, how mobile was Peyton Manning again?
Russell Wilson: Here we go. A mobile QB and I really like Wilson. He uses his mobility wisely by not taking unnecessary hits. So there's your answer ... except, HE WAS DRAFTED IN THE 3RD ROUND.
Joe Flacco: Had a great year that year. Hasn't really done much since. Are we calling him a mobile QB? He was drafted in the 1st round but not until pick 18. I wouldn't call that a high draft pick at all.
Aaron Rogers. Yes he's mobile. Yes he's a phenomenal QB. Yes he was picked in the 1st round. However, not until pick 24. Hell Flacco was picked higher.
Ben Roethlisberger. He was picked in the 1st round. He's mobile. However, he was picked 11th. Not a hard draft spot to trade up to if needed.
I'll stop there but the point is valid no matter how far back I go. Ironically, the only QBs that were drafted as high as so many here think the Giants HAVE TO DRAFT A QB AT were Peyton Manning and Eli Manning. Neither of them mobile btw.
I will give credit to those at least picking one of these QBs. There are many on here simply saying, "should have picked 'A' QB". Most are picking Darnold and have the nerve to claim he's already playing better than Eli.
Darnold threw for 198 yards against a Lions defense that was ranked 27th last year. They allowed 243.2 yards per game. He threw for less than the average that the Lions allowed last year. That's below the average of all teams that faced the Lions. He did better against Miami throwing for 334 yards who were ranked 16th in pass defense last year. They allowed 225.2 yards last year. Except that he threw 2 picks and had a fumble.
Eli Manning threw for 224 yards against Jaguars who were the #1 PASSING DEFENSE last year. They allowed only 169.9 yards last year and Eli put up 224 yards. BTW, Brady put up 234 yards against the same defense and also turned the ball over to them once. Brady's was a forced fumble. Eli's was tipped interception. The Cowboys had the 11th ranked passing defense last year and gave up 214.1 yards. Eli put up 279 yards on them.
Eli, with what we all admit is a crappy OL, put up higher than the average yards against teams with very good passing defenses.
PUMP THE BRAKES!!!!
What really sucks is all the strong passing defenses the Giants have to face while an already crappy OL is trying to develop some cohesion. Crappy OL against tough pass rushes/defense are going to hurt the Giants for the whole year. That's the truth. No way around it. They really have to pull a rabbit out of their hats this year. Problem is, that rabbit is dead from all the sacks.
Finally on to the OPs question. First, I like how you worded it to suggest that nobody believes Barkley was the right pick. Most of the board is at least fine with the pick. Wordsmithing doesn't change that. Yes, I think the best prospect in the draft at any position was the right pick before. Yes, I think the best prospect in the draft at any position was the best pick now. I think the ONLY player that stood out as a possible HoF caliber player in the draft was/is Barkley!!!!!!
Damn you for getting me to judge players 2 games in which is absurd as it is. Let's all shut up now for at least 2 years, not 2 games.
What is the goal here anyway? Be proven right, Darnold becomes a stud, and you get to what, say I told you so for years? The Giants suck but hey, you were right so ... GFY!
Now whether Darnold, Rosen, or Allen were the right picks remains to be seen.
Now whether Darnold, Rosen, or Allen were the right picks remains to be seen.
So is Beckham's, Engram's, Shepard's and Eli's. Nothing you or I can do about it. Stop pouting. Barkley was a terrific pick. Gunna be a great player. Sooner or later the Giants will get the Oline fixed and the NFL will become their playground.
It is being said that even if Barkley is great, he is being called a TERRIBLE pick by several people.
In fact, you have posters who have said if Barkley is a HoF'er but we don't win a title and Darnold is just average, then it will be a franchise altering mistake.
It isn't a simple disagreement of the pick- it is the numerous posters who keep starting threads, daily at this rate, complaining that the pick wasn't a QB.
Hell, after two games, the OP is wondering just how anyone can still "believe" Barkley was the right pick! The audacity!!
Yup..and some cant see it that way
That said, trends;
-the increase in insane (in a good way) DL schemes ...and players, diverging from the dearth of great college OL prospects, might be begging for a more zone oriented O blocking thing,
-and it seems like ownership prefers old school power blocking.
If true, is this a reasonable course of action?
All that being too vague,
In any case - trading down, building the line, grabbing a true blocking TE, a cheaper RB (gallmans not bad at all) etc.
Not so crazy now.
A pile. That's 2 or even 3 OL players, Bigger TE for actual, not mythological, run and pass blocking, another RB, slot WR. Whatever it takes to keep the QB clean.
And with zone ol maybe you don't need the giant ones... Just technically great ones who do it all.
He is an awesome talent seemingly, but NYG is a top heavy team with some very high quality stars and no depth of roster.
2004 Brees wins comeback player of the year, and they go 12-4.
When the Chargers didn't have a QB for LT's first three seasons, they were 17-31.
You point to Rivers never winning a division title without Tomlinson. Yet Tomlinson was a shell of himself in 2009 and the Chargers went 13-3.
Philip Rivers has been more valuable to the Chargers than LaDanian Tomlinson was. 2015 and 2016 were the first two years that the Chargers sucked since Rivers got drafted. 2012 is the only other year that they were below .500 at 7-9.
Tomlinson would be close to a best case scenario for Barkley as far as their careers. And he basically fell off of a cliff after his 7th season.
We can not waste Barkley's prime. His prime isn't 5 years from now. If it doesn't start this year then it starts next year.
Good post. And easy pickings...
A pile. That's 2 or even 3 OL players, Bigger TE for actual, not mythological, run and pass blocking, another RB, slot WR. Whatever it takes to keep the QB clean.
And with zone ol maybe you don't need the giant ones... Just technically great ones who do it all.
Totally agree.
And refute the quality over quantity argument as well, since our quality isn't winning us shit since 2011.
We are overrated/suck at too many positions to spout our several quality superstars make a difference.
Time to take a fresh look...
Barkely isn't going to turn into a pumpkin next year. Look at Gurley, he's in year four of his career. And the Rams were even able to get a quarterback before he vanished into thin air.
There will be opportunities to draft a QB. And as it stands the Giants will be awful enough to get one this year.
What I personally can't believe is Gettleman and co. thought they had improved the team enough that Manning wouldn't get his shit kicked in weekly.
That super sucks for Manning. He's going to eat shit all year. I seriously fear he's going to get hurt.
I argued with just about every big time Manning fan on this site this off-season retaining him wasn't a good decision, not because I thought he couldn't ever be a good QB again. But because I doubted the Giants would be good enough to allow him to succeed.
Sucks, but looks like I am right.
The Giants are going to be in position for a top 10 pick this year, maybe even top 5.
The line cannot block simple stunts and now add in a dinosaur at center. Can't even imagine what happens if one of the guards misses time.
Absolutely need a QB, 2 more OL, a blocking TE and tall WR on Offense.
Have to have a Pass Rushing DE, 2 LBs, a slot CB and FS on Defense.
so other than that we should be good to go...
Pretty sure Gettleman said he did hear offers for the #2 pick from a few teams. He also said that he didn't think the offers were very good. None of us know what that pick could have been parlayed into.
SB was the safe easy choice because he was slam dunk good at a position of need. Need only in terms production because he already wasted $4M on his charity case Jonathan Stewart.
He was never going to trade that pick in a million years...
Also, while I cant be sure of it and state it as fact, the stench of Giants taking the 'one last run with Eli' and an errant gross belief this team was more 2016 than 2017 is all over their efforts since the Reese/Mcadoo canning.
If this is the covert 'two year rebuild' that is being claimed now to save face --which I heard not a whiff of this offseason, I heard 'Eli will prove you wrong' and utter salivation at this dream lineup more like it- they also don't seem to be off to a good start with it. Barkley Manning and Beckham carrying major cap hits makes it terrible execution.
And I believe he can play well enough to win behind a good offensive line. It's a shame that we likely will not get the opportunity to find out, as we don't have anything resembling a good OL on this roster.
Cannot stand the big free agent splashes as they seem to only slightly above draft picks in terms of success hit rates and are far too expensive.
Gotta figure out whether there is value in Lauletta...not to the disdain of what happened with Webb. But if he has the ability to hold down the fort next season if there is no QB worth pursuing.
Bottom line - this year is a collosal fucking waste of time but at least we picked up SB and a few other solid players in the draft. We have to jettison Eli with some grace and get this restructuring moving along with cluster picks/some free agent dollars allocated to more Olineman and pray to the football gods that we can find a quality starting QB in the next year or so...
Rodgers TD-Int Ratio- College=3.3/1.. Pro 4.0/1
Peyton: College= 2.70/1... Pro 2.14/1
Brady : College= 2/1... Pro 3/1
Wilson: College= 3.5/... Pro 2.8/1
Darnold= 2.59/1
Darnold has a chance to be very good but ball security may be an issue for him as I don't view him as a big time passer. He will take what the D gives him and operate underneath but only time will tell
There was one prospect in this draft that checked all the boxes and this is the player they took. He just so happened to be a RB, people can argue all day about the value but its a matter of preference.
So I am in the camp that still believes we got the right player. Only way that will change is if Barkley flops or one of these QBs proves them wrong. There is also the fact that the Giants could very well get there QB next year.
Did the Colts make the correct pick taking Peyton Manning when they could have drafted Charles Woodson? The answer is yes unless you factor in the fact that they could have drafted Brady 2 years later in later rounds. (Bill Polian had him rated highly but chose not to take him because they had Peyton) Hindsight is 20/20 and we have to wait and watch how it plays out. Just enjoy having a truly special player
A pile. That's 2 or even 3 OL players, Bigger TE for actual, not mythological, run and pass blocking, another RB, slot WR. Whatever it takes to keep the QB clean.
And with zone ol maybe you don't need the giant ones... Just technically great ones who do it all.
You understand that the Jets only gave up 3 2nd round picks to move up to three, right?
You understand that many teams in the week leading up to the draft shopped their pick to no takers right?
Just making sure people remember that. This wasn't 2012 where some idiots like the Redskins were going to give up 3 1st's and then some to get up to number 2.
Takes two teams to trade. Oh, and by the way, if this year's QB class was so great, why weren't teams offering trades like the RG3 trade to get up there?
The talk of Chubb ahead of SB was misdirection, and the only QB they liked was Darnold. Nelson was the choice if they traded down and the other three were all gone, but they were looking for an offer they couldn't refuse in order to budge.
No one was giving the Giants that type of haul. That type of haul is dead for a while.
The Giants need to start nailing some of their own picks. That would be a great place to start. Imagine if Hernandez is a bust?
Barkley
Nelson (only after trade down)
Darnold