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NFT: Another NY Mets season officially put out of its misery

pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 9:30 am
last night the Mets were officially mathematically eliminated from the post-season, though non-mathematically they were realistically out of it before the AS break.

Normally this day would be sort of melancholy, but I actually feel pretty good about the future.

Love the 2nd half from a lot of guys, and feel like there were a few surprises in the minors, enough to provide some hope.

I think this off-season and the GM decision are crucial, so I have hope.

And like Andy says to Red says in his letter in Shawshank Redemption:

Quote:
Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.




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There are definitely some bright spots -  
Section331 : 9/18/2018 9:34 am : link
starting pitching has been outstanding, Rosario is showing why the Mets were so high on him, Conforto playing really well, McNeil and Nimmo. My major concern is management deciding this team is a contender, or close to it, as is.

We need a big bat in the middle of the line-up, and to strengthen the bullpen.
Hope for the best, expect the worst  
Eric on Li : 9/18/2018 9:39 am : link
only safe way to root for this franchise. A ton of encouraging young talent. Need to get the management of the franchise right this time. Should be a more appealing job then it was in the past.
RE: Hope for the best, expect the worst  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 9:53 am : link
In comment 14082959 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
only safe way to root for this franchise. A ton of encouraging young talent. Need to get the management of the franchise right this time. Should be a more appealing job then it was in the past.


Last part of your statement comes down to dealing with the Wilpons. Is a top notch smart kid like Chaim Bloom really eager to work with Jeff? I suspect they hire a retread who just wants to get paid/last shot at being GM. Gary LaRocque is the clear favorite in the clubhouse in my view.
Sad  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 9:53 am : link
totally lost seasons for Cecchini/Rivera. Both could have seen significant PT.
It could be worse for Mets fans  
dep026 : 9/18/2018 9:54 am : link
you can have Gabe Kapler and his chart book as your manager.
It really is unfortunate...  
ZGiants98 : 9/18/2018 9:56 am : link
So much went right, or even surpassed, what we realistically expected this year. If not for our historic losing streaks both in May and then again for most of June, we are likely in the playoffs right now. We had a complete blackout of offense during a time that our pitching was actually pitching extremely well. Of course, our 30 million a year man was nowhere to be found when we needed him the most, once again. Cespedes will go down as one of the worst signing in franchise history, considering the context, imo.
The  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 9:58 am : link
Mets should offer Bloom the keys to the car. He's the guy.
Link - ( New Window )
For so many things that look good  
Shecky : 9/18/2018 10:03 am : link
There are so many negatives.
I'll play the contrarian and focus on the positives.

Proving themselves as good starters at the ML level are McNeil, Nimmo, Rosario, Conforto. The rotation 1-3 is tops in the league. The lower levels of the minors look really, REALLY good. So there are some solid foundation pieces already here, with several more to follow Two of which are very close to the majors (Alonso and Gimenez).

Biggest thing this team is missing. Biggest need for this team is it literally and figuratively needs to swing for the fences and NOT MISS. A Carter move. A Piazza move. They absolutely cannot afford to miss. Whether it's this offseason, next season, free agent, trade, internal promotion. They need a keystone, and cannot afford to be wrong...
As  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 10:05 am : link
much as I like Conforto this team needs a legit middle of the order stud (easier said than done). I like Alonso but I don't believe he is that. I think Alonso will be similar to Lucas Duda. A nice above average regular but not "the guy" and I don't think "the guy" exists. From Piazza, to Wright to Yo. Currently "he" isn't here.
RE: As  
Shecky : 9/18/2018 10:06 am : link
In comment 14083045 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
much as I like Conforto this team needs a legit middle of the order stud (easier said than done). I like Alonso but I don't believe he is that. I think Alonso will be similar to Lucas Duda. A nice above average regular but not "the guy" and I don't think "the guy" exists. From Piazza, to Wright to Yo. Currently "he" isn't here.

Lol, well said Dan. Well said.
Exactly what I’ve been saying for months  
ZGiants98 : 9/18/2018 10:11 am : link
We need the “Piazza move”. We need what Cespedes and Wright were supposed to be when we doled out hundreds of millions. Those guys didn’t work out and will soon be off the books. Try again. Now is the time to strike. You have three friggin Doc Goodens on the team at the same time. You have a young core of hitters starting to establish themselves. Get the star hitter that can ease the burden off everyone and address the pen. Two freaking moves could turn this team into a WS contender.
RE: RE: As  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 10:11 am : link
In comment 14083046 Shecky said:
Quote:
In comment 14083045 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


much as I like Conforto this team needs a legit middle of the order stud (easier said than done). I like Alonso but I don't believe he is that. I think Alonso will be similar to Lucas Duda. A nice above average regular but not "the guy" and I don't think "the guy" exists. From Piazza, to Wright to Yo. Currently "he" isn't here.


Lol, well said Dan. Well said.


It's obviously hard to find but the best teams all have hitters that scare the opposing team. That can carry a lineup. Guys like Nimmo and Conforto have had nice seasons but they are in the tier 2 "complimentary good" players. Teams like the Indians or Red Sox or Yankees or Astros... you catch my drift. I don't know where they find this guy (FA wise Machado and Harper are the only thing even remotely close in this class) but soon enough they will need to find that.
I think the Mets  
pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 10:17 am : link
should look at two things before a middle of the order bat.

1. bullpen (I said this last year and some people scoffed, you have to have stacked talent in the bullpen).

2. defense (this is harder to "fix" but IMO don't put Bruce at 1B because they signed him and need a spot for him, start a guy at 1B who is legit.

I don't think they need a traditional middle of the order bat, the Giants teams (2010) didn't have one, unless you count Posey or Aubrey Huff. 2012 was even worse with only one player who OPSd over .800 (Posey) and Melky but he didn't play all season. 2014 two guys OPS over .800 (Posey and Mike Morse).

The Mets teams remind me a little of those Giants teams, 3 WS in 5 years without a guy who hit 30 HR's.

Plus, I think bullpen and defense may be easier to fix than a middle of the order bat.

If the Mets can add a Machado or Harper I do it, but I don't think a middle of the order bat is the easiest way to get the Mets to contend.

1. Fix the bullpen
2. Fix the D
3. Strengthen the rotation (whether it's Morton or Keuchel or whoever, it strengthens a strength and protects against injury)

but as mentioned the biggest decision is whose driving the bus.




Not  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 10:22 am : link
only is the bullpen not stacked nearly every single guy they acquired last deadline disappointed. Hard to identify a single one of them you can confidently say is a big league RP let alone a good one. Doesn't mean it won't happen but as a group... awful.
D  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 10:24 am : link
is going to be very hard to fix. Alonso= below average, Plawecki = below average, McNeil is okay at 2b, Nimmo has been below average.
RE: D  
pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 10:33 am : link
In comment 14083104 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
is going to be very hard to fix. Alonso= below average, Plawecki = below average, McNeil is okay at 2b, Nimmo has been below average.


I think they have to trade Alsono, capitalize on his great season and deal him while his value is high.

The Mets need a Keith Hernandez type more than a huge, one-dimensional power guy at 1b.

RE: Not  
pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 10:40 am : link
In comment 14083093 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
only is the bullpen not stacked nearly every single guy they acquired last deadline disappointed. Hard to identify a single one of them you can confidently say is a big league RP let alone a good one. Doesn't mean it won't happen but as a group... awful.


Oh, I know it's not stacked, I'm saying it has to be.

this is where the bulk of my off-season budget would go. I'd even consider Kimbrel and Familia.
Do you really need a GM, honestly?  
Shecky : 9/18/2018 10:42 am : link
Payroll for 2019 is in the 140/150 ballpark. Minus wright and Ces. So another 30/35 off. Call it $115mm net

Go out and make some noise. Sign Harper. Sign Machado. Call it $60mm added to payroll. So at $175mm, made an insane amount of "noise", ticket sales through the roof, excitement, even the most pessimistic Mets fan (that's a hell of title to win lol) would be happy. THEN FIGURE OUT THE REST from there.

Flip Bruce for an overpaid RP or SP. Bruce for Melancon.
Flip Frazier for an overpaid RP, an Addison Reed type.
Flip Lagares for a live body?
Got WAY younger, WAY better offensively, filled some BP gaps. SP is still very good.

Lineup: Nimmo, Machado, Harper, Alonso, Conforto, Rosario, McNeil, Plawecki. An offense with power. Not the slowest team in the league. Guys who get on base. Balanced Lefty/righty. A pretty decent bench.

And yeah, if Ces comes back, figure it out. Good problem to have. Ces, fighting for playing time going into a contract year = monster :)

All a fantasy, but
RE: RE: Not  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 10:46 am : link
In comment 14083165 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14083093 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


only is the bullpen not stacked nearly every single guy they acquired last deadline disappointed. Hard to identify a single one of them you can confidently say is a big league RP let alone a good one. Doesn't mean it won't happen but as a group... awful.



Oh, I know it's not stacked, I'm saying it has to be.

this is where the bulk of my off-season budget would go. I'd even consider Kimbrel and Familia.


To be clear I was agreeing with you. The internal options just aren't that great. I assume they will sign Familia or gamble on Ottavino.
Shecky  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 10:48 am : link
I like your ideas but to move Lagares they will almost certainly have to take back another "bad" money player. 1 year 9 million for Lagares is way out of wack given his inability to stay healthy.
RE: RE: RE: Not  
pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 10:48 am : link
In comment 14083182 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14083165 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 14083093 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


only is the bullpen not stacked nearly every single guy they acquired last deadline disappointed. Hard to identify a single one of them you can confidently say is a big league RP let alone a good one. Doesn't mean it won't happen but as a group... awful.



Oh, I know it's not stacked, I'm saying it has to be.

this is where the bulk of my off-season budget would go. I'd even consider Kimbrel and Familia.



To be clear I was agreeing with you. The internal options just aren't that great. I assume they will sign Familia or gamble on Ottavino.


They should sign both. They should spend $30M on the bullpen this year or more.

and another $15M on starting pitching.

RE: Shecky  
Shecky : 9/18/2018 10:53 am : link
In comment 14083186 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
I like your ideas but to move Lagares they will almost certainly have to take back another "bad" money player. 1 year 9 million for Lagares is way out of wack given his inability to stay healthy.


Yeah, assuming Vargas and Legares are both immovable. So when I say for a live body, I assume its salary neutral. But most likely have to keep both since there isnt much depth at either of those positions. In fantasy land GM world at least.

So $175mm payroll. Done. Ces is full health in 2020, assuming, yeah you have ag lut of OF and Nimmo or Conforto either have to be moved or Nimmo came back down to earth in 2019 and is your 4th OF like you thought anyway. 2020 payroll isnt so bad either with a couple of dead weight contracts coming off the books. And the kids in the minors are now the lower minors kids are ready to be promoted at ML minimum salary...
PJ  
Shecky : 9/18/2018 10:54 am : link
My fantasy land is bad enough. You want them to spend another $45mm on top? Bringing in Melacon and Reed types are way more likely
Mets need to find a guy  
Rory : 9/18/2018 12:10 pm : link
whos on the verge of a breakout season on a team that needs to rebuild. Similar to Yelich this year

Enter Nicholas Castellanos from Detroit.

Would Dunn and Smith be enough?
RE: Mets need to find a guy  
Jay on the Island : 9/18/2018 12:16 pm : link
In comment 14083440 Rory said:
Quote:
whos on the verge of a breakout season on a team that needs to rebuild. Similar to Yelich this year

Enter Nicholas Castellanos from Detroit.

Would Dunn and Smith be enough?

Castellanos is a poor defender also. Still that package isn’t close. Smith as little to no value at the moment.
The fantasy is Machado - he would be Beltran 2.0  
Eric on Li : 9/18/2018 12:18 pm : link
other than him I just don't even see another under 30yo "Piazza" player anywhere - even considering unrealistic trade targets. Trout, Betts, Bregman, Ramirez, JDM, Yelich, Chapman, Freeman, Altuve, Baez - none of those guys are going anywhere. Goldschmidt is a FA next year I think, so maybe you can pry him out of AZ with a Wheeler + Alonso + something else type deal? But I personally don't see it. Harper is less of a good fit but he would be a big addition.

If I were GM I would go the KC Royals / Oakland style team and continue building on Conforto, Nimmo, Rosario, Mcneil with more solid two way players and try to spend my way to a dominant BP. Simplest signings would be a Pollock in CF and Grandal for C. I think Alonso has a higher upside than Duda, but I wouldn't be opposed to dealing him if the right move came along.
RE: PJ  
pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14083204 Shecky said:
Quote:
My fantasy land is bad enough. You want them to spend another $45mm on top? Bringing in Melacon and Reed types are way more likely



Not on top of your fantasy land, instead of it.

baseball is all guaranteed contracts, so lessen the hit in 2019if you need to and backload them on 3 year deals.

The Mets do not have a salary on the books right now for 2021 from what I know.

Vargas and Frazier are off the books after next year. Bruce and Cespy the year after that.

So two years clears everything including Cespedes.

I know people don't want to believe it, but the Mets should be players for Harper and Machado (but we know they won't be).



.  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 12:27 pm : link
Brewers AAA team will now be the San Antonio Missions (previously the Colorado Spring Sky Sox), the previous Missions franchise is now in AA and will have a new name. Not confusing at all lol
Is that 115 with arb  
bhill410 : 9/18/2018 12:32 pm : link
A fair estimation of current team? Is that including ces but excluding wright?
RE: Is that 115 with arb  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14083495 bhill410 said:
Quote:
A fair estimation of current team? Is that including ces but excluding wright?


Roughly yes.
92.5 +  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 12:40 pm : link
arbitration for DeGrom, Wilmer, Thor, Conforto, Matz, Plawecki not including TDA/Montero both likely non-tendered.
RE: 92.5 +  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 12:41 pm : link
In comment 14083513 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
arbitration for DeGrom, Wilmer, Thor, Conforto, Matz, Plawecki not including TDA/Montero both likely non-tendered.


115 actually looks light from here running the numbers. DeGrom made 7.4 and Thor 2.0. So 92.5 + even their 2018 salaries puts them at 102 and both will get significant raises + the other guys. Probably closer to 120ish.
The Mets  
pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 12:43 pm : link
should trade Wilmer for a middle reliever or a B prospect.
RE: The Mets  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14083523 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
should trade Wilmer for a middle reliever or a B prospect.


I thought TJ Rivera could play the Wilmer role but the lost season makes him tough to trust. That being said with Frazier, Bruce, Alonso, Smith I don't think Wilmer is even needed at that price.
Yup. It’s time to flip Flores  
ZGiants98 : 9/18/2018 1:13 pm : link
I’ll always love him but we can get backup middle infielder play from Rivera, Cheech, etc. He’s starting to get too expensive.
Yeah, that's what I mean  
pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 1:16 pm : link
don't need a utility infielder, who can't play D (in most people's minds, I don't think he's quite as bad as the metrics) and he can't pinch run.

I'd trade him to an AL team where he can DH vs lefties, play a utility role when needed and maybe get more consistent at -bats or not but at his salary, he's not providing enough value to the Mets as a deep bench guy.

I have no idea why we can’t sign Machado  
ZGiants98 : 9/18/2018 1:16 pm : link
Looking at those payroll numbers. We clearly can. Obviously, a lot of teams will be involved and the new GM has to be ok with an extremely long term deal, but again... with Wright and Cespedes contracts coming to a close within two years... there’s really no reason why we couldn’t invest in one franchise bat like that.
Cabrera, Blevins, Familia, and Ramos  
ZGiants98 : 9/18/2018 1:18 pm : link
Made more than Machado will make annually. And that’s before you get into clearing Frazier, Flores, and others.
If the Mets don't pursue  
pjcas18 : 9/18/2018 1:19 pm : link
Machado or Harper it's 100% by choice.

not that it always isn't by choice, but sometimes a team can legitimately use the luxury tax as a reason, or claim they have reached their payroll limit, etc.

the Mets have zero excuse other than it's their choice not to pursue one of the games biggest superstars in their prime.
I love Flores  
Metnut : 9/18/2018 1:19 pm : link
but he's not going to get every day ABs here. He might break out somewhere else, but if we could get a few years of a good reliever, I think we'd have to do the trade.

We really need to sign a stud 3B (or a 2B I guess) if we're going to move Flores IMO.
Just  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 1:20 pm : link
guessing but I suspect Machado gets 10 years with multiple out-outs.
Tebow  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 1:21 pm : link
expected to open in Syracuse. Dom Smith is not a major league OF, he's just not but if he's going to back up... Tim Tebow... in LF.... then cut bait with Dom now and deal with the repercussions should he do well.
RE: If the Mets don't pursue  
ZGiants98 : 9/18/2018 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14083608 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
Machado or Harper it's 100% by choice.

not that it always isn't by choice, but sometimes a team can legitimately use the luxury tax as a reason, or claim they have reached their payroll limit, etc.

the Mets have zero excuse other than it's their choice not to pursue one of the games biggest superstars in their prime.


+1
I think the  
RobThailand : 9/18/2018 1:24 pm : link
Mets started like 11-1 and i was honestly going to push the buy button for the MLB tv pass then i said well lets get my head together and see where this goes
Yup..guessing  
ZGiants98 : 9/18/2018 1:25 pm : link
10 year, 30 AAV is the opening bid for both Machado and Harper.
The biggest hold up for me with Machado is why would he choose here?  
Eric on Li : 9/18/2018 1:33 pm : link
even if they do pursue him, and make a competitive offer, why would he come here? Jim Bowden did an article on the best fits for the top 20 impending FA, here's who he listed for Machado:

Quote:
Early best fits: Phillies, Cardinals, Angels, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Braves.


Even with the caveat that Bowden generally sucks, it's hard to disagree that most of the above teams would be more appealing to Machado than the Mets right now. On top of the fact that most of the above teams have proven to spend more. So it really seems like it will take an unexpectedly disinterested market like Vlad Guerrero/Carlos Beltran for the Mets to emerge victorious.

Also Machado aside, the only player he lists the Mets as a fit for this offseason is Grandal, which is odd unless he's just counting on them continuing to be a non-player for most top FA.
Bowden: Scouting the Top 20 impending free agents, and finding their best fits ($) - ( New Window )
A Mets type of  
Metnut : 9/18/2018 1:42 pm : link
offseason would be signing Josh Donaldson, Jeurys Familia and maybe Andrew Miller.
.  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 1:43 pm : link
2019 Orioles figure to be awful again. Doubt they need a 29 year old arbitration eligible RP. Mets should look into him
Link - ( New Window )
Machado or Harper on the Mets makes us a contender  
ZGiants98 : 9/18/2018 1:43 pm : link
In a playoff series, we likely have as good of a shot (if not better), than anyone. That’s before we even get into playing in the biggest media market in the world, the city life, etc. Somebody like Harper, specifically, would eat that shit up IMO.
RE: A Mets type of  
DanMetroMan : 9/18/2018 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14083672 Metnut said:
Quote:
offseason would be signing Josh Donaldson, Jeurys Familia and maybe Andrew Miller.


Not that anything they do shocks me but that would suggest they full gave up on Alonso
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