missed some opportunities, but he was under a considerable amount of duress on many of those plays. Two and three rushers were on top of him almost immediately on many occasions. To the extent that he did miss opportunities, I think it's because he understandably doesn't trust his OL after all the beatings he's taken over the years. That's why I think he's similar at this point to David Carr. He's shellshocked, and his natural inclination is therefore to check down to get something, and prevent another sack.
As I've said, I think we'll see Lauletta at some point this year. That may be because the Giants need film of him in real games as the go into the offseason, presumably with a high pick. But it may also be because Eli may be too injured to play. The Giants can use that as a rationalization for sitting him, especially now that his consecutive games streak has been broken.
On nearly every one of those plays, the person highlighted isn't any more open than the eventual target. There is one in particular where Engram has LB coverage on him and a safety lurking behind and they are calling him open?
A couple of times they are highlighting a WR who has the same separation (or lack thereof) of the player on the opposite side.
What that video shows me is that at the point of getting pressure, not many open options existed.
On nearly every one of those plays, the person highlighted isn't any more open than the eventual target. There is one in particular where Engram has LB coverage on him and a safety lurking behind and they are calling him open?
A couple of times they are highlighting a WR who has the same separation (or lack thereof) of the player on the opposite side.
What that video shows me is that at the point of getting pressure, not many open options existed.
But overall, I agree - the problem with Eli is that, even when he's given at least some time, he's missing open men downfield and choosing to dump the ball off.
But overall, I agree - the problem with Eli is that, even when he's given at least some time, he's missing open men downfield and choosing to dump the ball off.
Agree but the two Engram misses were awful as was the decision not to throw the ball into the end zone and instead get creamed.
and they thought a pass to Engram with a DB on his hip was the place to go. I'm not wasting another 4 minutes of my life watching that kind of crap.
I got through two. The second one, Eli was already cocked back about to release the ball when he circled the guy, who was no more open than the same route on the other side.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Hes bitching that Odell had a 1-1 but he was covered, but the play before he noted that he threw to Odell when he covered. The 3rd and long play is great when he said a WR was open when he is clearly bracketed.
These things are stupid because a guy may be oipen because Eli is either looking somewhere else or the coverage is rolled.
and your rb catches 11, that tells you all you need to know about how bad this offense is. The defense, after one huge screw up, held up fairly well, they just could not hold up after the Giants kept going 3 and out.
RE: The Giants paid Beckham millions of dollars, he catches 4 passes Â
and your rb catches 11, that tells you all you need to know about how bad this offense is. The defense, after one huge screw up, held up fairly well, they just could not hold up after the Giants kept going 3 and out.
and your rb catches 11, that tells you all you need to know about how bad this offense is. The defense, after one huge screw up, held up fairly well, they just could not hold up after the Giants kept going 3 and out.
How many passes did Beckham catch in comparison to Barkley last week? Just curious.
many of the "open" receivers shown are on the opposite side of the field from where the play is being run. Its easy to say the guy on the right hash is open but Eli doesn't see him when is first option is on the left side of the field and turns out to be well covered. At least several of the supposedly open receivers are the result of this
Are accurate, most of those, you can see by how his body is pointed what side of the field the play is designed for. The thing with Shurmur's passing game is that it's designed to create lanes, not windows. So instead of one two three rip to a spot and a guy is there, there is a lot of combo/clear out type of stuff and the first and second options are about it because of the way the play is designed and where he is looking. This is not the wide open all over the field offense w option routes that let a smart QB and WR play off each other, it's regimented and precise and relies on defenders doing certain things.
The issue on I'd say half of those, even with the time is that they are slow developing plays and Eli has little time to throw a guy open or hope the WR gets to a spot. He is being gun shy, a few of those plays do clearly show it. Again, this thread is a perfect example of the have and have not mentality of this board and this game. He did have some guys get open, he didn't hit them, he also didn't have a lot of time and guys weren't looking. It's a total systemic failure and he's the trigger man and yes he deserves some flack for missed plays. He also deserves credit for not pitching it up there in desperation and tossing 2 or 3 INTs that get run back (I refuse to use the term "pick six", it's hipster sportball jibberish).
You can see that he does have guys run free and he misses it, that's not debatable on some of those plays but the defend Eli at all cost folks will rabble rabble rabble until everyone agrees that the OP is totally wrong. Instead, you should be watching each play, and thinking for yourself and figuring out that while half of those he's dead wrong, about half he isn't far off the mark. The first play for example, TOTALLY right read. If he throws that to Engram it's 6 for Dallas and he knows it, you don't throw late to the flat against zone coverage that far from the pocket.
receivers when there is no pressure, then complain away. The pressure forces the decision to be made faster. I get the idea that those that think a QB can see everything while a lineman is running at him unimpeded have never played a sport in their life.
I think that's a fair and accurate analysis. It's not as damning as the guy who made the clip thinks, not at all, but there are legit gripes in there too.
The people who defend Eli at all costs like to say that he hasn't lost anything, that it's all on the OL, but would the 2011 Eli Manning miss those plays? He got pressured plenty that season, after all.
receivers when there is no pressure, then complain away. The pressure forces the decision to be made faster. I get the idea that those that think a QB can see everything while a lineman is running at him unimpeded have never played a sport in their life.
But he DID have good protection on some of those (and at least one other poor throw I can remember not in the clip). Not saying that he wasn't under heavy pressure for much of the game, but it wasn't the case on every single dropback the way some people are saying.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
of any quarterback, including very good ones, playing in a competent offensive scheme and come up with dozens of plays where players appear to be open and are "missed" by the quarterback.
No doubt Eli has misfired or ignored some glaring open receivers in two games this year, but if one were to look at these cutups in a vacuum, it would be easy to conclude that he just can't play anymore, irrespective of OL play.
In reality, we don't know what his reads or progressions are. Many of these are 3, 4 and even 5-man patterns, and in most cases Eli is, at best, getting to his second read because of pressure or his internal clock (another issue entirely). Coverage, down-and-distance, boundary vs. field, apparent blitz, etc. all dictate where Eli is looking to go with the football. On some of those plays, receivers appear to be wide open because DBs are breaking off coverage, based on the way a play develops or where the QB looks, and gambling that the ball is going elsewhere. That causes a receiver to appear to be open when, in reality, they were too far out of the play to be a viable option.
I'm not excusing Eli or any OL play, but I think this video illustrates just one of a panoply of factors which have led to such awful offensive output in two games.
There are times when Eli absolutely missed an open guy, not nearly as many as this guy points out. And I am sure Eli will take responsibility for it as well.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
The weirdest thing I notice here is how impossible it seems to accept multiple things are going wrong -- the protection is horrid, the quarterback when he has time is hearing footsteps, there is very poor depth at the skills positions, and the FB/TEs are missing tons of assignments.
You're talking about poor throws, not poor decisions. The discussion is that people who will brook no criticism of Eli routinely insist that because the OL is so bad, or the playcalling is so bad, or whatever, that Eli is simply helpless to do anything. More than one thing can be true. The OL absolutely is garbage, but Eli's not playing particularly well either, even when he does get decent protection.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
Happens every week, in every game.
Did you see Rodger's come back in week 1 with a porous Oline? Those two qbs make a lot more big plays than Eli has in recent years.
When the team fails to score points and sustain drives, you can't have big misses.
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
The weirdest thing I notice here is how impossible it seems to accept multiple things are going wrong -- the protection is horrid, the quarterback when he has time is hearing footsteps, there is very poor depth at the skills positions, and the FB/TEs are missing tons of assignments.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
And I actually agree with this. It's a combination of everything.
The scheme is allowing guys to get wide open all over. The problem is execution by the OL and Eli. Our weapons are getting open consistently, Eli needs to read the field better, and our OL needs to get their heads out of their asses to buy Eli another second or 2, at the very least give him some confidence that he isn't going to be smacked blindly each and every play.
Hope Shurmer can get this straightened out, cause I love the scheme he runs.
You're talking about poor throws, not poor decisions. The discussion is that people who will brook no criticism of Eli routinely insist that because the OL is so bad, or the playcalling is so bad, or whatever, that Eli is simply helpless to do anything. More than one thing can be true. The OL absolutely is garbage, but Eli's not playing particularly well either, even when he does get decent protection.
And I actually agree with that. I wish he was making more plays.
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
Eli can still play - I have no question about that. He can't play behind a pathetic OL. That is on Gettleman. If his choice was to go into this season with Eli, that's fine...but to come into the season with this OL to protect him is a fireable offense.
The ball for a bigger completion or "checking it down" depends on a variety of things, two of those being coverage and pass protection. Unfortunately past pass protection or lack thereof impacts the current play.
The weirdest thing I notice here is how impossible it seems to accept multiple things are going wrong -- the protection is horrid, the quarterback when he has time is hearing footsteps, there is very poor depth at the skills positions, and the FB/TEs are missing tons of assignments.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
It's the most difficult part of discussing things around here. For so many posters, it HAS to be one thing or another. It can't be more than one issue at play simultaneously (which, is reality here).
The protection is bad AND Eli is missing some plays. His complete lack of mobility isn't helping, either.
Combine those things and that's how you wind up with a crappy offense.
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
So you're only of your opinion to balance things out? Balanced thinking requires the thinker to gather all information then sort through for an educated opinion.
Eli is particularly ill-suited to playing for the Giants, more so than maybe any other QB in the league, because of his immobility. He probably COULD be productive behind a good OL. Maybe not as good as he was, that's hard to say, but good.
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
So you're only of your opinion to balance things out? Balanced thinking requires the thinker to gather all information then sort through for an educated opinion.
Yea and the educated opinion is even the offensive lineman are a bunch of fucksticks who can't pick elementary blitz schemes, there are still plays to be had, and that have to be made given the state of the team.
A number of QBs have horrid oline play, it's not just the oline at fault here.
there arent many OLs who have played worse than ours.
There may not be many worse, but there's a lot of bad ones.
Have you seen this years dline draft class? Oline play is only going to continue to get worse as colleges continue to churn out more elite end pass rushers than they do elite end olineman.
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
Are accurate, most of those, you can see by how his body is pointed what side of the field the play is designed for. The thing with Shurmur's passing game is that it's designed to create lanes, not windows. So instead of one two three rip to a spot and a guy is there, there is a lot of combo/clear out type of stuff and the first and second options are about it because of the way the play is designed and where he is looking. This is not the wide open all over the field offense w option routes that let a smart QB and WR play off each other, it's regimented and precise and relies on defenders doing certain things.
The issue on I'd say half of those, even with the time is that they are slow developing plays and Eli has little time to throw a guy open or hope the WR gets to a spot. He is being gun shy, a few of those plays do clearly show it. Again, this thread is a perfect example of the have and have not mentality of this board and this game. He did have some guys get open, he didn't hit them, he also didn't have a lot of time and guys weren't looking. It's a total systemic failure and he's the trigger man and yes he deserves some flack for missed plays. He also deserves credit for not pitching it up there in desperation and tossing 2 or 3 INTs that get run back (I refuse to use the term "pick six", it's hipster sportball jibberish).
You can see that he does have guys run free and he misses it, that's not debatable on some of those plays but the defend Eli at all cost folks will rabble rabble rabble until everyone agrees that the OP is totally wrong. Instead, you should be watching each play, and thinking for yourself and figuring out that while half of those he's dead wrong, about half he isn't far off the mark. The first play for example, TOTALLY right read. If he throws that to Engram it's 6 for Dallas and he knows it, you don't throw late to the flat against zone coverage that far from the pocket.
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
This is pretty much it. It's honestly as simple as this and couldn't have been stated better.
Exactly. And who should have figured that all out before the draft?
Gettleman.
I agree. It appears he whiffed there, and it's probably going to not only cost us this season - but is going to set us back beyond this season now.
To be honest, this offseason could probably have been accomplished just the same by the guy we just fired. Reese's approach really wasn't much different. Which is how we got here in the first place.
But the OL deserves more time to get their shit together, right? New faces, new system. I'm not even saying they'll get a fraction better, but maybe with time they can at least allow the running backs and quarterback to do their jobs a little better
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
This is pretty much it. It's honestly as simple as this and couldn't have been stated better.
Tend to agree. DG thought that his improvements (Solder, Omameh, Hernandez, and maybe even flipping Flowers to RT) would create an OL, that while certainly still imperfect, would be good enough to win, especially with Eli, Barkley, OBJ, SS, EE, and a good defense.
It's admittedly only been two games, but that may not be true, especially since the OL can't even pick up simple stunts and blitzes. If it is true, then Eli will be beaten to a proverbial pulp, especially given his age and accompanying immobility.
Even if the OL starts to play better, and becomes at least average with a few more pieces next year, Eli will be nearly 39.
A QB will miss some opportunities throughout the course of a game. I think Joey said it very well. I'd like to add you this is not an Eli problem I give him credit for not forcing anything as we were still in this game throughout the 2nd half. Also you cannot put full blame on the Oline. The plays are not accounting for defensive schemes. How many times in that game did defenders have an unabated lane directly to Eli?! WTF is up with that? It is understood our Oline was a concern all the more reason to give them a chance by providing personel and schemes to protect Eli. Next games defenses our going to be teeing up personnel to full on rush Eli he aint going to make it to the bye if changes to the play design and formations are not made this week.
But the OL deserves more time to get their shit together, right? New faces, new system. I'm not even saying they'll get a fraction better, but maybe with time they can at least allow the running backs and quarterback to do their jobs a little better
I am willing to give it time at this point - because, well, what other freakin choice do we even have?
I think we've been sold the "the line just needs to gel" narrative a few too many times for me to expect much of a change. But we've got 14 games to go and all we can really do is sit back and watch. The important decisions were already made and now we need to live with whatever it yields.
the person breaking down film here is bad at breaking down film Â
Eli had some misses, but I don't know how you can look at only his misses and not the context of how often he was getting killed all game. When one considers how quickly Eli faced pressure on nearly every snap, it changes the calculus for how quickly he has to be prepared to make decisions.
Also, I guarantee you could nitpick like this for every single quarterback in the league and find several times where they might have had better options than what they went with.
But how many of them are required to make decisions under pressure the way Eli is?
Now Eli made mistakes, for sure. He had missed opportunities. But some of these weren't even bad decisions by Eli, just poor breakdowns by MikeTooNice, whomever that is.
The very first clip, Eli made the right read and dumped it off to Barkley in open space. Asking him to make that sideline out throw to Engram was not only a hard throw to make, but was dangerous because of how easy it is to jump the route. And the idea that Engram would have turned it upfield and gotten any more yards than Barkley did who caught it in open space is a reach.
The misses at 1:10 and 1:16 I agree with.
At 2:23 in the clip, the Giants have 2nd and 3 on their 43 yard line, down 20-3. He had Latimer lined up in one-on-one coverage on the outside. It was his first read and he was taking a shot to go deep to let his bigger receiver try and win a one-on-one battle. The caption says: "I give Eli credit for taking a shot here but his most dynamic receiver just ran an excellent route and we've seen Odell take these place to the house before"
Again, Latimer looks to be his first read on single coverage on the outside looking to make a big play. Eli knows he doesn't have much time to throw it in general and there is a single high safety playing about 20 yards deep. He has to make that throw early and over the top to Latimer before.
At 3:15, Eli throws it to Barkley, with the caption saying "Eli has a clean pocket here but lets his paranoia get to him. If he waits an extra second, Evan Engram runs a terrific double move and has another walk-in touchdown."
Did this guy not watch the rest of the game, or last week? With how easy the Cowboys and everyone else just murders the offensive line and how quickly they get to the quarterback, how can he so casually say "If he waits an extra second"?
In what universe would it be logical to think that Eli has the luxury to wait an extra second?
That is just incorrect. The deep safety was charging in and had to decide whether to attack Engram or Barkley. He was running towards Engram until Eli planted and started throwing to Barkley whereupon the safety stopped and changed directions to Barkley. That was the only reason Engram was then open for a TD. If Eli instead ways for Engram, the safety stays with him and he missed the chance to get it to Barkley. If Eli pulls that back, he now has to throw flat-footed to try and hit Engram. Sure, it may have worked, but it was also 1st and 10 on the Dallas 40 and they needed to get yards to avoid "and long" downs which they faced all day.
At 3:30 he completely misses the open man for a TD. Great head fake, and instead tried to get the 1st down on 2nd and 5 instead of looking up-field. Bad miss.
At 3:44, from the Dal 37 he blames Eli for missing Sheppard in the middle of the field. he could have hit him, sure, and maybe gets the first down. Instead, he throws it to Barkley in the flat who doesn't have a Dallas player within 18 yards of him and seemed to have plenty of room to run. Isn't it the Giants goal to get Barkley the ball in open space? Sean Lee runs right through two Giants receivers running their routes. If they get in his way at all, Barkley can cut towards the middle of the field and who knows what happens.
We always have a choice. We can choose to freak out. Time doesn't always give us exactly what we want, but it always reveals the truth. Others feel they see all they need to see right now and choose that reality over the current. Things don't look good now I certainly know that, but the current situation had to be a decent possibility. We got our expectations out of whack in my opinion.
We always have a choice. We can choose to freak out. Time doesn't always give us exactly what we want, but it always reveals the truth. Others feel they see all they need to see right now and choose that reality over the current. Things don't look good now I certainly know that, but the current situation had to be a decent possibility. We got our expectations out of whack in my opinion.
If our expectations should have been low coming into the season then why didn't we take the quarterback in the draft? That's the part that makes no sense.
Barkley is a running back - running backs are more likely to have short careers and get hurt. There's a good chance that, for one reason or another, we won't want to give him a second contract.
If our expectations were that this is a 2-3 rebuilding project, then drafting Barkley and signing Beckham make no sense.
My biggest concern with how the world reacted to Eli getting benched Â
is how Mara would interpret it. And I'd hate to think he made a decision on a further commitment to Eli based on fan and media emotion. But it's difficult to give the giants the benefit of the doubt on decision making after the past few seasons.
We always have a choice. We can choose to freak out. Time doesn't always give us exactly what we want, but it always reveals the truth. Others feel they see all they need to see right now and choose that reality over the current. Things don't look good now I certainly know that, but the current situation had to be a decent possibility. We got our expectations out of whack in my opinion.
If our expectations should have been low coming into the season then why didn't we take the quarterback in the draft? That's the part that makes no sense.
Barkley is a running back - running backs are more likely to have short careers and get hurt. There's a good chance that, for one reason or another, we won't want to give him a second contract.
If our expectations were that this is a 2-3 rebuilding project, then drafting Barkley and signing Beckham make no sense.
Terps I'm not saying low. More tempered. This team coming in this year is a bad team until proven otherwise.
As for the plan, and this has been repeated many times on here. If the Giants felt they were forcing a qb at two AND Barkley was maybe the best to come out in a while even though he is a RB the prefect storm situation occurred.
I don't know what their detailed plan is, and the truth is we aren't going to know which educated guess was the correct one in this past draft for some time in my opinion. I'm trying to not bother with that until I feel there has been sufficient time to accurately react.
We always have a choice. We can choose to freak out. Time doesn't always give us exactly what we want, but it always reveals the truth. Others feel they see all they need to see right now and choose that reality over the current. Things don't look good now I certainly know that, but the current situation had to be a decent possibility. We got our expectations out of whack in my opinion.
I know what you're saying - my issue is that the Giants set the expectations for us by approaching this offseason the way they did. They basically told us that they thought they could complete. That Eli was still good enough to win a Championship with. All he needed was better protection, a running back, and a healthy obj.
Well, Beckham is healthy, we now have a stud RB, and we invested quite a bit into the OL for one offseason - but we still can't score and the line still looks terrible.
So now, the question becomes... did the Giants miscalculate this? 2 games is a small sample size. But so far, the answer is a resounding yes.
I really hope things turn around. I would rather be totally off on my early season assessment and enjoy football than be right and suffer through another lost season. I'm really tired of the Giants being so dysfunctional.
I know it could be worse. We just seem like we're stuck and nothing is changing.
I will watch as always on Sunday and hope things turn around. I just don't have much faith they will.
In my opinion what the Giants decide to do should only impact our expectations a fraction. You're a smart football guy, you knew how bad things have been with the exception of 16 (even then the OL was trouble). My expectations for the start of this year were higher than what we've been given, but I tried to remind myself this team has had a lot of issues and a huge roster turnover which creates problems in of itself.
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
a qb drops back to pass, or is in the gun, he can look preliminary either left, right, or middle. Perhaps he can see two of those peripherally. I believe Eli decides that based on what defense he sees. If his first look is not there, its virtually impossible, with that OL, to gather, then scan the other side of the field. Therefor, he either takes the first look, if he thinks its decent, or he dumps off to the safety valve, so not to get sacked. This cutup is virtually nonsense, as everything is based on the benefit of hindsight, and methodically looking at the entire field. Neither of which, Eli, or any quarterback, has the luxury of having.
I'm no Eli fanatic, and yes, I'd love to have Rogers, who has the escape ability to look at 2nd and third options. However, dont discount what Eli DOES bring. He recognizes defenses better than anybody, audibles well, adjusts protections (at least he tries) and usually is a good decision maker. Now, the duress he's been under has affected some of that decision making at times, but to think this cutup is anything but pure Eli-bashing hyperbole is ridiculous.
This is a QB who looks like he's completely lost his confidence and/or just can't figure it out anymore. Like he can't process the situation quickly enough to make the best decision. Those check downs are complete indict of that.
I don't know ow Shurmur can watch this and think we optimized our scoring opportunities, even with the oline struggles.
This is a very good video to show we have a collision of two bad things - a struggling oline and a potentially washed up QB.
In my opinion what the Giants decide to do should only impact our expectations a fraction. You're a smart football guy, you knew how bad things have been with the exception of 16 (even then the OL was trouble). My expectations for the start of this year were higher than what we've been given, but I tried to remind myself this team has had a lot of issues and a huge roster turnover which creates problems in of itself.
Of course, it is a process.
I was actually not even that alarmed after the first game. JAX is a good football team with a really good defense. They just beat NE and NE didn't even fare as well as we did.
I really thought if we hadn't muffed that final punt, we may have gotten down the field to win that thing.
But the Dallas game was just all sorts of troubling because I know Dallas is not that good a team this year. Their WR corps is really bad. I couldn't believe we gave up a bomb to Tavon fucking Austin like that right off the bat. And it was against our top corner. It's not even like they got him singled up on a backup and exploited it.
Jenkins just flat out missed the jam and Riley was too slow to get over from CF.
I'm just getting tired of watching this offense struggle so badly. It was tough sledding for most of 2016... our offense was really just to lean on the defense and wait for Odell to take one to the house. Which worked well enough with a top 5 defense. But now the defense is no longer a top 5 defense and we can't play games that way.
We need to score points to win this year because we are going to give up some big plays.
I didn't expect offensive outbursts in the first two weeks. But I did expect to eclipse 20 points and not feel like nothing has really changed.
I'm already having nightmares about this team trying to stop DeShaun Watson.
There were about 2 plays on that that were egregious, but the others would take ridiculous anticipatory skills for a QB and WR crops that is in a new system. That kinda stuff doesn't happen after two weeks.
What I did notice on a lot of those snaps on drop backs is that Eli simply doesn't look like he has his balance and drop back steps right. He just looks uncomfortable from the second he receives the snap.
I can only pray, that with time, both he and the OL and everyone else can pick up the mental part of this system quicker and figure this stuff out. One thing is clear, the plays are out there to be made with this system.
There were about 2 plays on that that were egregious, but the others would take ridiculous anticipatory skills for a QB and WR crops that is in a new system. That kinda stuff doesn't happen after two weeks.
What I did notice on a lot of those snaps on drop backs is that Eli simply doesn't look like he has his balance and drop back steps right. He just looks uncomfortable from the second he receives the snap.
I can only pray, that with time, both he and the OL and everyone else can pick up the mental part of this system quicker and figure this stuff out. One thing is clear, the plays are out there to be made with this system.
Your last part is the one that is the most frustrating.
I think this coach knows what he's doing as far as play design and getting guys open. There are plays to be made if the QB has a little more time.
And again - having some mobility would help that, but better pass pro would too. It goes both ways and both things are forcing Eli to take sacks or dump the ball off a second or two before the big play opens up further downfield.
The video suffers from its creator's failure to pause the video appropriately as Eli hits his drop. In most instances, the recommended throws become available after the play has already broken down.
-Play #1: Engram is covered and most definitely not the primary read. Making that throw is every bit as likely to result in a pick-6 as a first down. When the LB drops to double Beckham, Eli dumps it to Barkley hoping he can break a tackle.
-Play #2: Beckham (primary read) has 1-on-1 on the outside. Eli throws it there but can't connect.
-Play #3: Engram doesn't come open until Eli's body is turned and the LB in coverage stops following him. Either way, Eli is not going to be able to throw on an acute angle to his right given the direction he was moving.
-Play #4: There are 5 Cowboys defenders for the 2 circled Giants receivers on the right side of the field. Though the deep WR on the left was definitely an option rather than the check down.
-Play #5: Engram does separate 20 yards downfield. If Eli had seen him could have been a big play.
-Play #6: The right side of the line is IMMEDIATELY caved in, Eli doesn't even finish his drop before he's forced to move up, directly into the interior of the Dallas line where he's sacked. At the moment the video is paused it's already too late.
-Play #7: Immobile Eli gets sacked because of immediate pressure off the right.
-Play #8: If the Giants OL could handle a simple stunt, it's a 1st down and maybe a lot more. Instead, by the time Eli hits his drop, there's a free rusher directly in front of him. Play over.
-Play #9: Outside receiver is bracketed but perhaps a throw to the corner?
-Play #10: Probably trying to force a deep throw that isn't really there. Beckham would have been the throw there on the back side.
-Play #11: Engram's "double move" probably prevented him from preventing a bigger play given that Eli had already thrown the ball and Engram neither drew any attention nor blocked.
-Play #12: The Dallas safety is standing on the numbers waiting to break on any throw to the outside. It's an INT if Eli throws it deep left.
-Play #13: At the moment Barkley catches the pass, there isn't a DAL defender closer than 17 yards away. The Giants are also in hurry up mode here, trying to get closer for a FG before attempting a 2nd onside kick. A middle of the field throw to Shepard kills 15 seconds.
-Play #14: Pressure from Eli's right prevents any possibility of a throw in that direction, and a completion in bounds likely ends the game. It's end zone or bust on that play.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
Happens every week, in every game.
But then they deliver sick passes many times over and win games in spite of everything else around them.. Manning hasn't had one of those in a long time.. the example of one game is to show that there are plays left on the field by our QB.. our team hasn't scored 30 points in a long long time.. to think that no part of that is the QBs fault is naive.. we are 0-2 partly because of Eli.. we were 3-13 partly because of Eli.. There is blame for Eli and if this continues.. it time to bench him..
I don't want to hear criticism of short passes and checkdowns Â
you guys did not like the vertical passing game; you did not like Eli taking chances and getting a few picks; you all marveled at the Case Keenum-type 70% completion, 4 yards a pass offense which you all declared as "modern." Jawn was so enamored of that fathead from Green Bay that he hired the idiot to be head coach and then replaced him with Shurmur, another disciple of the 4 yards a pass offense.
Manning is doing what he's told- don't risk anything, take the checkdown, get a nice high completion percentage. You want the old Eli, take the freaking gloves off and let him throw the ball down the field to Engram, ODB and Barkley and don't gripe and bitch about the completion percentage and occasional Int. We went from 50+ 20 yard completions for four straight years to 30 last season. We went from double digit 40+ yard completions to 3, count them, 3 last season and 0 so far this year. A rocket launcher has been turned into a popgun and you are all wondering why it isn't causing any damage.
Well, you all got what you wanted, now deal with it.
you guys did not like the vertical passing game; you did not like Eli taking chances and getting a few picks; you all marveled at the Case Keenum-type 70% completion, 4 yards a pass offense which you all declared as "modern." Jawn was so enamored of that fathead from Green Bay that he hired the idiot to be head coach and then replaced him with Shurmur, another disciple of the 4 yards a pass offense.
Manning is doing what he's told- don't risk anything, take the checkdown, get a nice high completion percentage. You want the old Eli, take the freaking gloves off and let him throw the ball down the field to Engram, ODB and Barkley and don't gripe and bitch about the completion percentage and occasional Int. We went from 50+ 20 yard completions for four straight years to 30 last season. We went from double digit 40+ yard completions to 3, count them, 3 last season and 0 so far this year. A rocket launcher has been turned into a popgun and you are all wondering why it isn't causing any damage.
Well, you all got what you wanted, now deal with it.
Did this board not bitch about Mcadoos short passing scheme?
What an unbelievable compilation of shit, cherry picked to make Â
1st you must take into account the progressions of his reads. 2nd a lot of the times the guy being singled out is just as covered as the guy Eli threw to.
I think I need a break from BBI. Lots of dumb on here.
The video suffers from its creator's failure to pause the video appropriately as Eli hits his drop. In most instances, the recommended throws become available after the play has already broken down.
-Play #1: Engram is covered and most definitely not the primary read. Making that throw is every bit as likely to result in a pick-6 as a first down. When the LB drops to double Beckham, Eli dumps it to Barkley hoping he can break a tackle.
-Play #2: Beckham (primary read) has 1-on-1 on the outside. Eli throws it there but can't connect.
-Play #3: Engram doesn't come open until Eli's body is turned and the LB in coverage stops following him. Either way, Eli is not going to be able to throw on an acute angle to his right given the direction he was moving.
-Play #4: There are 5 Cowboys defenders for the 2 circled Giants receivers on the right side of the field. Though the deep WR on the left was definitely an option rather than the check down.
-Play #5: Engram does separate 20 yards downfield. If Eli had seen him could have been a big play.
-Play #6: The right side of the line is IMMEDIATELY caved in, Eli doesn't even finish his drop before he's forced to move up, directly into the interior of the Dallas line where he's sacked. At the moment the video is paused it's already too late.
-Play #7: Immobile Eli gets sacked because of immediate pressure off the right.
-Play #8: If the Giants OL could handle a simple stunt, it's a 1st down and maybe a lot more. Instead, by the time Eli hits his drop, there's a free rusher directly in front of him. Play over.
-Play #9: Outside receiver is bracketed but perhaps a throw to the corner?
-Play #10: Probably trying to force a deep throw that isn't really there. Beckham would have been the throw there on the back side.
-Play #11: Engram's "double move" probably prevented him from preventing a bigger play given that Eli had already thrown the ball and Engram neither drew any attention nor blocked.
-Play #12: The Dallas safety is standing on the numbers waiting to break on any throw to the outside. It's an INT if Eli throws it deep left.
-Play #13: At the moment Barkley catches the pass, there isn't a DAL defender closer than 17 yards away. The Giants are also in hurry up mode here, trying to get closer for a FG before attempting a 2nd onside kick. A middle of the field throw to Shepard kills 15 seconds.
-Play #14: Pressure from Eli's right prevents any possibility of a throw in that direction, and a completion in bounds likely ends the game. It's end zone or bust on that play.
Nice breakdown. Some of these videos don't give you the complete picture of why things work or not. I'm a little slow to pick things up, and I need the extra commentary. Thanks, rs.
The first two plays the guy circled was not even open. Another one the WR only gets open after the defender sees Eli throwing to the other side of the field and he leaves to pursue.
Were there some where Eli did not see an open WR? Sure.. but this guy obviously has an agenda.
Versus Jax. He had a "commanding presence" scanning down the field. Not sure why we went away from this.
You're not going to get anything from play action when you can't run the football, which they couldn't
And regarding rollouts, one of the tactics Dallas was using heavily during the game were slot blitzes. Everybody knows the Giants OL isn't great. One of the tactics you can use to help out bad protection is to get the QB moving. And any Defensive Coordinator also knows this too.
I don't think its because he fears being hit... I think he's more afraid of int/turnovers, so its just easier to check down.
Love Eli, and shit Oline or not, he's cooked.
As I've said, I think we'll see Lauletta at some point this year. That may be because the Giants need film of him in real games as the go into the offseason, presumably with a high pick. But it may also be because Eli may be too injured to play. The Giants can use that as a rationalization for sitting him, especially now that his consecutive games streak has been broken.
On nearly every one of those plays, the person highlighted isn't any more open than the eventual target. There is one in particular where Engram has LB coverage on him and a safety lurking behind and they are calling him open?
A couple of times they are highlighting a WR who has the same separation (or lack thereof) of the player on the opposite side.
What that video shows me is that at the point of getting pressure, not many open options existed.
On nearly every one of those plays, the person highlighted isn't any more open than the eventual target. There is one in particular where Engram has LB coverage on him and a safety lurking behind and they are calling him open?
A couple of times they are highlighting a WR who has the same separation (or lack thereof) of the player on the opposite side.
What that video shows me is that at the point of getting pressure, not many open options existed.
It's scary how serious they are.
Agree but the two Engram misses were awful as was the decision not to throw the ball into the end zone and instead get creamed.
I got through two. The second one, Eli was already cocked back about to release the ball when he circled the guy, who was no more open than the same route on the other side.
There were some alarming ones though.
These things are stupid because a guy may be oipen because Eli is either looking somewhere else or the coverage is rolled.
14 actually...
How many passes did Beckham catch in comparison to Barkley last week? Just curious.
The issue on I'd say half of those, even with the time is that they are slow developing plays and Eli has little time to throw a guy open or hope the WR gets to a spot. He is being gun shy, a few of those plays do clearly show it. Again, this thread is a perfect example of the have and have not mentality of this board and this game. He did have some guys get open, he didn't hit them, he also didn't have a lot of time and guys weren't looking. It's a total systemic failure and he's the trigger man and yes he deserves some flack for missed plays. He also deserves credit for not pitching it up there in desperation and tossing 2 or 3 INTs that get run back (I refuse to use the term "pick six", it's hipster sportball jibberish).
You can see that he does have guys run free and he misses it, that's not debatable on some of those plays but the defend Eli at all cost folks will rabble rabble rabble until everyone agrees that the OP is totally wrong. Instead, you should be watching each play, and thinking for yourself and figuring out that while half of those he's dead wrong, about half he isn't far off the mark. The first play for example, TOTALLY right read. If he throws that to Engram it's 6 for Dallas and he knows it, you don't throw late to the flat against zone coverage that far from the pocket.
The people who defend Eli at all costs like to say that he hasn't lost anything, that it's all on the OL, but would the 2011 Eli Manning miss those plays? He got pressured plenty that season, after all.
But he DID have good protection on some of those (and at least one other poor throw I can remember not in the clip). Not saying that he wasn't under heavy pressure for much of the game, but it wasn't the case on every single dropback the way some people are saying.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
No doubt Eli has misfired or ignored some glaring open receivers in two games this year, but if one were to look at these cutups in a vacuum, it would be easy to conclude that he just can't play anymore, irrespective of OL play.
In reality, we don't know what his reads or progressions are. Many of these are 3, 4 and even 5-man patterns, and in most cases Eli is, at best, getting to his second read because of pressure or his internal clock (another issue entirely). Coverage, down-and-distance, boundary vs. field, apparent blitz, etc. all dictate where Eli is looking to go with the football. On some of those plays, receivers appear to be wide open because DBs are breaking off coverage, based on the way a play develops or where the QB looks, and gambling that the ball is going elsewhere. That causes a receiver to appear to be open when, in reality, they were too far out of the play to be a viable option.
I'm not excusing Eli or any OL play, but I think this video illustrates just one of a panoply of factors which have led to such awful offensive output in two games.
There are times when Eli absolutely missed an open guy, not nearly as many as this guy points out. And I am sure Eli will take responsibility for it as well.
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You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
Happens every week, in every game.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
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In comment 14083229 Greg from LI said:
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You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
Happens every week, in every game.
Did you see Rodger's come back in week 1 with a porous Oline? Those two qbs make a lot more big plays than Eli has in recent years.
When the team fails to score points and sustain drives, you can't have big misses.
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I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
And I actually agree with this. It's a combination of everything.
Hope Shurmer can get this straightened out, cause I love the scheme he runs.
And I actually agree with that. I wish he was making more plays.
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In comment 14083233 crick n NC said:
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I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
Eli can still play - I have no question about that. He can't play behind a pathetic OL. That is on Gettleman. If his choice was to go into this season with Eli, that's fine...but to come into the season with this OL to protect him is a fireable offense.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
It's the most difficult part of discussing things around here. For so many posters, it HAS to be one thing or another. It can't be more than one issue at play simultaneously (which, is reality here).
The protection is bad AND Eli is missing some plays. His complete lack of mobility isn't helping, either.
Combine those things and that's how you wind up with a crappy offense.
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In comment 14083310 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14083233 crick n NC said:
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I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
So you're only of your opinion to balance things out? Balanced thinking requires the thinker to gather all information then sort through for an educated opinion.
Ain't happening here on this team, though.
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In comment 14083333 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14083310 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14083233 crick n NC said:
Quote:
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
So you're only of your opinion to balance things out? Balanced thinking requires the thinker to gather all information then sort through for an educated opinion.
Yea and the educated opinion is even the offensive lineman are a bunch of fucksticks who can't pick elementary blitz schemes, there are still plays to be had, and that have to be made given the state of the team.
A number of QBs have horrid oline play, it's not just the oline at fault here.
There may not be many worse, but there's a lot of bad ones.
Have you seen this years dline draft class? Oline play is only going to continue to get worse as colleges continue to churn out more elite end pass rushers than they do elite end olineman.
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
The issue on I'd say half of those, even with the time is that they are slow developing plays and Eli has little time to throw a guy open or hope the WR gets to a spot. He is being gun shy, a few of those plays do clearly show it. Again, this thread is a perfect example of the have and have not mentality of this board and this game. He did have some guys get open, he didn't hit them, he also didn't have a lot of time and guys weren't looking. It's a total systemic failure and he's the trigger man and yes he deserves some flack for missed plays. He also deserves credit for not pitching it up there in desperation and tossing 2 or 3 INTs that get run back (I refuse to use the term "pick six", it's hipster sportball jibberish).
You can see that he does have guys run free and he misses it, that's not debatable on some of those plays but the defend Eli at all cost folks will rabble rabble rabble until everyone agrees that the OP is totally wrong. Instead, you should be watching each play, and thinking for yourself and figuring out that while half of those he's dead wrong, about half he isn't far off the mark. The first play for example, TOTALLY right read. If he throws that to Engram it's 6 for Dallas and he knows it, you don't throw late to the flat against zone coverage that far from the pocket.
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
This is pretty much it. It's honestly as simple as this and couldn't have been stated better.
Gettleman.
Gettleman.
I agree. It appears he whiffed there, and it's probably going to not only cost us this season - but is going to set us back beyond this season now.
To be honest, this offseason could probably have been accomplished just the same by the guy we just fired. Reese's approach really wasn't much different. Which is how we got here in the first place.
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
Couldnt have said it better
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Here's the problem...
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
This is pretty much it. It's honestly as simple as this and couldn't have been stated better.
Tend to agree. DG thought that his improvements (Solder, Omameh, Hernandez, and maybe even flipping Flowers to RT) would create an OL, that while certainly still imperfect, would be good enough to win, especially with Eli, Barkley, OBJ, SS, EE, and a good defense.
It's admittedly only been two games, but that may not be true, especially since the OL can't even pick up simple stunts and blitzes. If it is true, then Eli will be beaten to a proverbial pulp, especially given his age and accompanying immobility.
Even if the OL starts to play better, and becomes at least average with a few more pieces next year, Eli will be nearly 39.
I am willing to give it time at this point - because, well, what other freakin choice do we even have?
I think we've been sold the "the line just needs to gel" narrative a few too many times for me to expect much of a change. But we've got 14 games to go and all we can really do is sit back and watch. The important decisions were already made and now we need to live with whatever it yields.
Also, I guarantee you could nitpick like this for every single quarterback in the league and find several times where they might have had better options than what they went with.
But how many of them are required to make decisions under pressure the way Eli is?
Now Eli made mistakes, for sure. He had missed opportunities. But some of these weren't even bad decisions by Eli, just poor breakdowns by MikeTooNice, whomever that is.
The very first clip, Eli made the right read and dumped it off to Barkley in open space. Asking him to make that sideline out throw to Engram was not only a hard throw to make, but was dangerous because of how easy it is to jump the route. And the idea that Engram would have turned it upfield and gotten any more yards than Barkley did who caught it in open space is a reach.
The misses at 1:10 and 1:16 I agree with.
At 2:23 in the clip, the Giants have 2nd and 3 on their 43 yard line, down 20-3. He had Latimer lined up in one-on-one coverage on the outside. It was his first read and he was taking a shot to go deep to let his bigger receiver try and win a one-on-one battle. The caption says: "I give Eli credit for taking a shot here but his most dynamic receiver just ran an excellent route and we've seen Odell take these place to the house before"
Again, Latimer looks to be his first read on single coverage on the outside looking to make a big play. Eli knows he doesn't have much time to throw it in general and there is a single high safety playing about 20 yards deep. He has to make that throw early and over the top to Latimer before.
At 3:15, Eli throws it to Barkley, with the caption saying "Eli has a clean pocket here but lets his paranoia get to him. If he waits an extra second, Evan Engram runs a terrific double move and has another walk-in touchdown."
Did this guy not watch the rest of the game, or last week? With how easy the Cowboys and everyone else just murders the offensive line and how quickly they get to the quarterback, how can he so casually say "If he waits an extra second"?
In what universe would it be logical to think that Eli has the luxury to wait an extra second?
That is just incorrect. The deep safety was charging in and had to decide whether to attack Engram or Barkley. He was running towards Engram until Eli planted and started throwing to Barkley whereupon the safety stopped and changed directions to Barkley. That was the only reason Engram was then open for a TD. If Eli instead ways for Engram, the safety stays with him and he missed the chance to get it to Barkley. If Eli pulls that back, he now has to throw flat-footed to try and hit Engram. Sure, it may have worked, but it was also 1st and 10 on the Dallas 40 and they needed to get yards to avoid "and long" downs which they faced all day.
At 3:30 he completely misses the open man for a TD. Great head fake, and instead tried to get the 1st down on 2nd and 5 instead of looking up-field. Bad miss.
At 3:44, from the Dal 37 he blames Eli for missing Sheppard in the middle of the field. he could have hit him, sure, and maybe gets the first down. Instead, he throws it to Barkley in the flat who doesn't have a Dallas player within 18 yards of him and seemed to have plenty of room to run. Isn't it the Giants goal to get Barkley the ball in open space? Sean Lee runs right through two Giants receivers running their routes. If they get in his way at all, Barkley can cut towards the middle of the field and who knows what happens.
If our expectations should have been low coming into the season then why didn't we take the quarterback in the draft? That's the part that makes no sense.
Barkley is a running back - running backs are more likely to have short careers and get hurt. There's a good chance that, for one reason or another, we won't want to give him a second contract.
If our expectations were that this is a 2-3 rebuilding project, then drafting Barkley and signing Beckham make no sense.
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We always have a choice. We can choose to freak out. Time doesn't always give us exactly what we want, but it always reveals the truth. Others feel they see all they need to see right now and choose that reality over the current. Things don't look good now I certainly know that, but the current situation had to be a decent possibility. We got our expectations out of whack in my opinion.
If our expectations should have been low coming into the season then why didn't we take the quarterback in the draft? That's the part that makes no sense.
Barkley is a running back - running backs are more likely to have short careers and get hurt. There's a good chance that, for one reason or another, we won't want to give him a second contract.
If our expectations were that this is a 2-3 rebuilding project, then drafting Barkley and signing Beckham make no sense.
Terps I'm not saying low. More tempered. This team coming in this year is a bad team until proven otherwise.
As for the plan, and this has been repeated many times on here. If the Giants felt they were forcing a qb at two AND Barkley was maybe the best to come out in a while even though he is a RB the prefect storm situation occurred.
I don't know what their detailed plan is, and the truth is we aren't going to know which educated guess was the correct one in this past draft for some time in my opinion. I'm trying to not bother with that until I feel there has been sufficient time to accurately react.
I know what you're saying - my issue is that the Giants set the expectations for us by approaching this offseason the way they did. They basically told us that they thought they could complete. That Eli was still good enough to win a Championship with. All he needed was better protection, a running back, and a healthy obj.
Well, Beckham is healthy, we now have a stud RB, and we invested quite a bit into the OL for one offseason - but we still can't score and the line still looks terrible.
So now, the question becomes... did the Giants miscalculate this? 2 games is a small sample size. But so far, the answer is a resounding yes.
I really hope things turn around. I would rather be totally off on my early season assessment and enjoy football than be right and suffer through another lost season. I'm really tired of the Giants being so dysfunctional.
I know it could be worse. We just seem like we're stuck and nothing is changing.
I will watch as always on Sunday and hope things turn around. I just don't have much faith they will.
The type of OL Eli needs to succeed behind is one that will take more than a year to construct. It'll probably take another 2 years of significant investment to fix it.
Then, Eli is 39.
So, in the time it will take to construct a better OL for him, he will continue to decline, and the more time that passes, the better the line will need to be in order to keep him upright and able to deliver from a clean pocket.
It's like swimming against a current. It's not going to work and it's not a good plan.
I thought Gettleman would be able to get a league average line on the field this year and figured that might be good enough with Barkley + a healthy Beckham to field a decent offense. So far, the line has been an abject failure and, in turn, the QB play has not been good and we're not scoring points.
It's a race against an impossible clock.
If the OL isn't going to be able to protect the QB we're paying 22M cap dollars to, we should have re-invested some of that money to strengthen other areas and drafted a QB instead.
This is very well laid out.
I'm no Eli fanatic, and yes, I'd love to have Rogers, who has the escape ability to look at 2nd and third options. However, dont discount what Eli DOES bring. He recognizes defenses better than anybody, audibles well, adjusts protections (at least he tries) and usually is a good decision maker. Now, the duress he's been under has affected some of that decision making at times, but to think this cutup is anything but pure Eli-bashing hyperbole is ridiculous.
This is a QB who looks like he's completely lost his confidence and/or just can't figure it out anymore. Like he can't process the situation quickly enough to make the best decision. Those check downs are complete indict of that.
I don't know ow Shurmur can watch this and think we optimized our scoring opportunities, even with the oline struggles.
This is a very good video to show we have a collision of two bad things - a struggling oline and a potentially washed up QB.
Of course, it is a process.
I was actually not even that alarmed after the first game. JAX is a good football team with a really good defense. They just beat NE and NE didn't even fare as well as we did.
I really thought if we hadn't muffed that final punt, we may have gotten down the field to win that thing.
But the Dallas game was just all sorts of troubling because I know Dallas is not that good a team this year. Their WR corps is really bad. I couldn't believe we gave up a bomb to Tavon fucking Austin like that right off the bat. And it was against our top corner. It's not even like they got him singled up on a backup and exploited it.
Jenkins just flat out missed the jam and Riley was too slow to get over from CF.
I'm just getting tired of watching this offense struggle so badly. It was tough sledding for most of 2016... our offense was really just to lean on the defense and wait for Odell to take one to the house. Which worked well enough with a top 5 defense. But now the defense is no longer a top 5 defense and we can't play games that way.
We need to score points to win this year because we are going to give up some big plays.
I didn't expect offensive outbursts in the first two weeks. But I did expect to eclipse 20 points and not feel like nothing has really changed.
I'm already having nightmares about this team trying to stop DeShaun Watson.
What I did notice on a lot of those snaps on drop backs is that Eli simply doesn't look like he has his balance and drop back steps right. He just looks uncomfortable from the second he receives the snap.
I can only pray, that with time, both he and the OL and everyone else can pick up the mental part of this system quicker and figure this stuff out. One thing is clear, the plays are out there to be made with this system.
Please.
What I did notice on a lot of those snaps on drop backs is that Eli simply doesn't look like he has his balance and drop back steps right. He just looks uncomfortable from the second he receives the snap.
I can only pray, that with time, both he and the OL and everyone else can pick up the mental part of this system quicker and figure this stuff out. One thing is clear, the plays are out there to be made with this system.
Your last part is the one that is the most frustrating.
I think this coach knows what he's doing as far as play design and getting guys open. There are plays to be made if the QB has a little more time.
And again - having some mobility would help that, but better pass pro would too. It goes both ways and both things are forcing Eli to take sacks or dump the ball off a second or two before the big play opens up further downfield.
-Play #1: Engram is covered and most definitely not the primary read. Making that throw is every bit as likely to result in a pick-6 as a first down. When the LB drops to double Beckham, Eli dumps it to Barkley hoping he can break a tackle.
-Play #2: Beckham (primary read) has 1-on-1 on the outside. Eli throws it there but can't connect.
-Play #3: Engram doesn't come open until Eli's body is turned and the LB in coverage stops following him. Either way, Eli is not going to be able to throw on an acute angle to his right given the direction he was moving.
-Play #4: There are 5 Cowboys defenders for the 2 circled Giants receivers on the right side of the field. Though the deep WR on the left was definitely an option rather than the check down.
-Play #5: Engram does separate 20 yards downfield. If Eli had seen him could have been a big play.
-Play #6: The right side of the line is IMMEDIATELY caved in, Eli doesn't even finish his drop before he's forced to move up, directly into the interior of the Dallas line where he's sacked. At the moment the video is paused it's already too late.
-Play #7: Immobile Eli gets sacked because of immediate pressure off the right.
-Play #8: If the Giants OL could handle a simple stunt, it's a 1st down and maybe a lot more. Instead, by the time Eli hits his drop, there's a free rusher directly in front of him. Play over.
-Play #9: Outside receiver is bracketed but perhaps a throw to the corner?
-Play #10: Probably trying to force a deep throw that isn't really there. Beckham would have been the throw there on the back side.
-Play #11: Engram's "double move" probably prevented him from preventing a bigger play given that Eli had already thrown the ball and Engram neither drew any attention nor blocked.
-Play #12: The Dallas safety is standing on the numbers waiting to break on any throw to the outside. It's an INT if Eli throws it deep left.
-Play #13: At the moment Barkley catches the pass, there isn't a DAL defender closer than 17 yards away. The Giants are also in hurry up mode here, trying to get closer for a FG before attempting a 2nd onside kick. A middle of the field throw to Shepard kills 15 seconds.
-Play #14: Pressure from Eli's right prevents any possibility of a throw in that direction, and a completion in bounds likely ends the game. It's end zone or bust on that play.
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In comment 14083229 Greg from LI said:
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You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
Happens every week, in every game.
But then they deliver sick passes many times over and win games in spite of everything else around them.. Manning hasn't had one of those in a long time.. the example of one game is to show that there are plays left on the field by our QB.. our team hasn't scored 30 points in a long long time.. to think that no part of that is the QBs fault is naive.. we are 0-2 partly because of Eli.. we were 3-13 partly because of Eli.. There is blame for Eli and if this continues.. it time to bench him..
Manning is doing what he's told- don't risk anything, take the checkdown, get a nice high completion percentage. You want the old Eli, take the freaking gloves off and let him throw the ball down the field to Engram, ODB and Barkley and don't gripe and bitch about the completion percentage and occasional Int. We went from 50+ 20 yard completions for four straight years to 30 last season. We went from double digit 40+ yard completions to 3, count them, 3 last season and 0 so far this year. A rocket launcher has been turned into a popgun and you are all wondering why it isn't causing any damage.
Well, you all got what you wanted, now deal with it.
Eli Mental Processing - ( New Window )
Manning is doing what he's told- don't risk anything, take the checkdown, get a nice high completion percentage. You want the old Eli, take the freaking gloves off and let him throw the ball down the field to Engram, ODB and Barkley and don't gripe and bitch about the completion percentage and occasional Int. We went from 50+ 20 yard completions for four straight years to 30 last season. We went from double digit 40+ yard completions to 3, count them, 3 last season and 0 so far this year. A rocket launcher has been turned into a popgun and you are all wondering why it isn't causing any damage.
Well, you all got what you wanted, now deal with it.
Did this board not bitch about Mcadoos short passing scheme?
1st you must take into account the progressions of his reads. 2nd a lot of the times the guy being singled out is just as covered as the guy Eli threw to.
I think I need a break from BBI. Lots of dumb on here.
-Play #1: Engram is covered and most definitely not the primary read. Making that throw is every bit as likely to result in a pick-6 as a first down. When the LB drops to double Beckham, Eli dumps it to Barkley hoping he can break a tackle.
-Play #2: Beckham (primary read) has 1-on-1 on the outside. Eli throws it there but can't connect.
-Play #3: Engram doesn't come open until Eli's body is turned and the LB in coverage stops following him. Either way, Eli is not going to be able to throw on an acute angle to his right given the direction he was moving.
-Play #4: There are 5 Cowboys defenders for the 2 circled Giants receivers on the right side of the field. Though the deep WR on the left was definitely an option rather than the check down.
-Play #5: Engram does separate 20 yards downfield. If Eli had seen him could have been a big play.
-Play #6: The right side of the line is IMMEDIATELY caved in, Eli doesn't even finish his drop before he's forced to move up, directly into the interior of the Dallas line where he's sacked. At the moment the video is paused it's already too late.
-Play #7: Immobile Eli gets sacked because of immediate pressure off the right.
-Play #8: If the Giants OL could handle a simple stunt, it's a 1st down and maybe a lot more. Instead, by the time Eli hits his drop, there's a free rusher directly in front of him. Play over.
-Play #9: Outside receiver is bracketed but perhaps a throw to the corner?
-Play #10: Probably trying to force a deep throw that isn't really there. Beckham would have been the throw there on the back side.
-Play #11: Engram's "double move" probably prevented him from preventing a bigger play given that Eli had already thrown the ball and Engram neither drew any attention nor blocked.
-Play #12: The Dallas safety is standing on the numbers waiting to break on any throw to the outside. It's an INT if Eli throws it deep left.
-Play #13: At the moment Barkley catches the pass, there isn't a DAL defender closer than 17 yards away. The Giants are also in hurry up mode here, trying to get closer for a FG before attempting a 2nd onside kick. A middle of the field throw to Shepard kills 15 seconds.
-Play #14: Pressure from Eli's right prevents any possibility of a throw in that direction, and a completion in bounds likely ends the game. It's end zone or bust on that play.
Nice breakdown. Some of these videos don't give you the complete picture of why things work or not. I'm a little slow to pick things up, and I need the extra commentary. Thanks, rs.
Were there some where Eli did not see an open WR? Sure.. but this guy obviously has an agenda.
this!
Can’t believe these grown men professional football players can be this bad at they’re position
You're not going to get anything from play action when you can't run the football, which they couldn't
And regarding rollouts, one of the tactics Dallas was using heavily during the game were slot blitzes. Everybody knows the Giants OL isn't great. One of the tactics you can use to help out bad protection is to get the QB moving. And any Defensive Coordinator also knows this too.