missed some opportunities, but he was under a considerable amount of duress on many of those plays. Two and three rushers were on top of him almost immediately on many occasions. To the extent that he did miss opportunities, I think it's because he understandably doesn't trust his OL after all the beatings he's taken over the years. That's why I think he's similar at this point to David Carr. He's shellshocked, and his natural inclination is therefore to check down to get something, and prevent another sack.
As I've said, I think we'll see Lauletta at some point this year. That may be because the Giants need film of him in real games as the go into the offseason, presumably with a high pick. But it may also be because Eli may be too injured to play. The Giants can use that as a rationalization for sitting him, especially now that his consecutive games streak has been broken.
On nearly every one of those plays, the person highlighted isn't any more open than the eventual target. There is one in particular where Engram has LB coverage on him and a safety lurking behind and they are calling him open?
A couple of times they are highlighting a WR who has the same separation (or lack thereof) of the player on the opposite side.
What that video shows me is that at the point of getting pressure, not many open options existed.
On nearly every one of those plays, the person highlighted isn't any more open than the eventual target. There is one in particular where Engram has LB coverage on him and a safety lurking behind and they are calling him open?
A couple of times they are highlighting a WR who has the same separation (or lack thereof) of the player on the opposite side.
What that video shows me is that at the point of getting pressure, not many open options existed.
But overall, I agree - the problem with Eli is that, even when he's given at least some time, he's missing open men downfield and choosing to dump the ball off.
But overall, I agree - the problem with Eli is that, even when he's given at least some time, he's missing open men downfield and choosing to dump the ball off.
Agree but the two Engram misses were awful as was the decision not to throw the ball into the end zone and instead get creamed.
and they thought a pass to Engram with a DB on his hip was the place to go. I'm not wasting another 4 minutes of my life watching that kind of crap.
I got through two. The second one, Eli was already cocked back about to release the ball when he circled the guy, who was no more open than the same route on the other side.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Hes bitching that Odell had a 1-1 but he was covered, but the play before he noted that he threw to Odell when he covered. The 3rd and long play is great when he said a WR was open when he is clearly bracketed.
These things are stupid because a guy may be oipen because Eli is either looking somewhere else or the coverage is rolled.
and your rb catches 11, that tells you all you need to know about how bad this offense is. The defense, after one huge screw up, held up fairly well, they just could not hold up after the Giants kept going 3 and out.
RE: The Giants paid Beckham millions of dollars, he catches 4 passes
and your rb catches 11, that tells you all you need to know about how bad this offense is. The defense, after one huge screw up, held up fairly well, they just could not hold up after the Giants kept going 3 and out.
and your rb catches 11, that tells you all you need to know about how bad this offense is. The defense, after one huge screw up, held up fairly well, they just could not hold up after the Giants kept going 3 and out.
How many passes did Beckham catch in comparison to Barkley last week? Just curious.
many of the "open" receivers shown are on the opposite side of the field from where the play is being run. Its easy to say the guy on the right hash is open but Eli doesn't see him when is first option is on the left side of the field and turns out to be well covered. At least several of the supposedly open receivers are the result of this
Are accurate, most of those, you can see by how his body is pointed what side of the field the play is designed for. The thing with Shurmur's passing game is that it's designed to create lanes, not windows. So instead of one two three rip to a spot and a guy is there, there is a lot of combo/clear out type of stuff and the first and second options are about it because of the way the play is designed and where he is looking. This is not the wide open all over the field offense w option routes that let a smart QB and WR play off each other, it's regimented and precise and relies on defenders doing certain things.
The issue on I'd say half of those, even with the time is that they are slow developing plays and Eli has little time to throw a guy open or hope the WR gets to a spot. He is being gun shy, a few of those plays do clearly show it. Again, this thread is a perfect example of the have and have not mentality of this board and this game. He did have some guys get open, he didn't hit them, he also didn't have a lot of time and guys weren't looking. It's a total systemic failure and he's the trigger man and yes he deserves some flack for missed plays. He also deserves credit for not pitching it up there in desperation and tossing 2 or 3 INTs that get run back (I refuse to use the term "pick six", it's hipster sportball jibberish).
You can see that he does have guys run free and he misses it, that's not debatable on some of those plays but the defend Eli at all cost folks will rabble rabble rabble until everyone agrees that the OP is totally wrong. Instead, you should be watching each play, and thinking for yourself and figuring out that while half of those he's dead wrong, about half he isn't far off the mark. The first play for example, TOTALLY right read. If he throws that to Engram it's 6 for Dallas and he knows it, you don't throw late to the flat against zone coverage that far from the pocket.
receivers when there is no pressure, then complain away. The pressure forces the decision to be made faster. I get the idea that those that think a QB can see everything while a lineman is running at him unimpeded have never played a sport in their life.
I think that's a fair and accurate analysis. It's not as damning as the guy who made the clip thinks, not at all, but there are legit gripes in there too.
The people who defend Eli at all costs like to say that he hasn't lost anything, that it's all on the OL, but would the 2011 Eli Manning miss those plays? He got pressured plenty that season, after all.
receivers when there is no pressure, then complain away. The pressure forces the decision to be made faster. I get the idea that those that think a QB can see everything while a lineman is running at him unimpeded have never played a sport in their life.
But he DID have good protection on some of those (and at least one other poor throw I can remember not in the clip). Not saying that he wasn't under heavy pressure for much of the game, but it wasn't the case on every single dropback the way some people are saying.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
of any quarterback, including very good ones, playing in a competent offensive scheme and come up with dozens of plays where players appear to be open and are "missed" by the quarterback.
No doubt Eli has misfired or ignored some glaring open receivers in two games this year, but if one were to look at these cutups in a vacuum, it would be easy to conclude that he just can't play anymore, irrespective of OL play.
In reality, we don't know what his reads or progressions are. Many of these are 3, 4 and even 5-man patterns, and in most cases Eli is, at best, getting to his second read because of pressure or his internal clock (another issue entirely). Coverage, down-and-distance, boundary vs. field, apparent blitz, etc. all dictate where Eli is looking to go with the football. On some of those plays, receivers appear to be wide open because DBs are breaking off coverage, based on the way a play develops or where the QB looks, and gambling that the ball is going elsewhere. That causes a receiver to appear to be open when, in reality, they were too far out of the play to be a viable option.
I'm not excusing Eli or any OL play, but I think this video illustrates just one of a panoply of factors which have led to such awful offensive output in two games.
There are times when Eli absolutely missed an open guy, not nearly as many as this guy points out. And I am sure Eli will take responsibility for it as well.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
The weirdest thing I notice here is how impossible it seems to accept multiple things are going wrong -- the protection is horrid, the quarterback when he has time is hearing footsteps, there is very poor depth at the skills positions, and the FB/TEs are missing tons of assignments.
You're talking about poor throws, not poor decisions. The discussion is that people who will brook no criticism of Eli routinely insist that because the OL is so bad, or the playcalling is so bad, or whatever, that Eli is simply helpless to do anything. More than one thing can be true. The OL absolutely is garbage, but Eli's not playing particularly well either, even when he does get decent protection.
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
Happens every week, in every game.
Did you see Rodger's come back in week 1 with a porous Oline? Those two qbs make a lot more big plays than Eli has in recent years.
When the team fails to score points and sustain drives, you can't have big misses.
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
The weirdest thing I notice here is how impossible it seems to accept multiple things are going wrong -- the protection is horrid, the quarterback when he has time is hearing footsteps, there is very poor depth at the skills positions, and the FB/TEs are missing tons of assignments.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
And I actually agree with this. It's a combination of everything.
The scheme is allowing guys to get wide open all over. The problem is execution by the OL and Eli. Our weapons are getting open consistently, Eli needs to read the field better, and our OL needs to get their heads out of their asses to buy Eli another second or 2, at the very least give him some confidence that he isn't going to be smacked blindly each and every play.
Hope Shurmer can get this straightened out, cause I love the scheme he runs.
You're talking about poor throws, not poor decisions. The discussion is that people who will brook no criticism of Eli routinely insist that because the OL is so bad, or the playcalling is so bad, or whatever, that Eli is simply helpless to do anything. More than one thing can be true. The OL absolutely is garbage, but Eli's not playing particularly well either, even when he does get decent protection.
And I actually agree with that. I wish he was making more plays.
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
Eli can still play - I have no question about that. He can't play behind a pathetic OL. That is on Gettleman. If his choice was to go into this season with Eli, that's fine...but to come into the season with this OL to protect him is a fireable offense.
The ball for a bigger completion or "checking it down" depends on a variety of things, two of those being coverage and pass protection. Unfortunately past pass protection or lack thereof impacts the current play.
The weirdest thing I notice here is how impossible it seems to accept multiple things are going wrong -- the protection is horrid, the quarterback when he has time is hearing footsteps, there is very poor depth at the skills positions, and the FB/TEs are missing tons of assignments.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
It's the most difficult part of discussing things around here. For so many posters, it HAS to be one thing or another. It can't be more than one issue at play simultaneously (which, is reality here).
The protection is bad AND Eli is missing some plays. His complete lack of mobility isn't helping, either.
Combine those things and that's how you wind up with a crappy offense.
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
So you're only of your opinion to balance things out? Balanced thinking requires the thinker to gather all information then sort through for an educated opinion.
Eli is particularly ill-suited to playing for the Giants, more so than maybe any other QB in the league, because of his immobility. He probably COULD be productive behind a good OL. Maybe not as good as he was, that's hard to say, but good.
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
So you're only of your opinion to balance things out? Balanced thinking requires the thinker to gather all information then sort through for an educated opinion.
Yea and the educated opinion is even the offensive lineman are a bunch of fucksticks who can't pick elementary blitz schemes, there are still plays to be had, and that have to be made given the state of the team.
A number of QBs have horrid oline play, it's not just the oline at fault here.
I don't think its because he fears being hit... I think he's more afraid of int/turnovers, so its just easier to check down.
Love Eli, and shit Oline or not, he's cooked.
As I've said, I think we'll see Lauletta at some point this year. That may be because the Giants need film of him in real games as the go into the offseason, presumably with a high pick. But it may also be because Eli may be too injured to play. The Giants can use that as a rationalization for sitting him, especially now that his consecutive games streak has been broken.
On nearly every one of those plays, the person highlighted isn't any more open than the eventual target. There is one in particular where Engram has LB coverage on him and a safety lurking behind and they are calling him open?
A couple of times they are highlighting a WR who has the same separation (or lack thereof) of the player on the opposite side.
What that video shows me is that at the point of getting pressure, not many open options existed.
On nearly every one of those plays, the person highlighted isn't any more open than the eventual target. There is one in particular where Engram has LB coverage on him and a safety lurking behind and they are calling him open?
A couple of times they are highlighting a WR who has the same separation (or lack thereof) of the player on the opposite side.
What that video shows me is that at the point of getting pressure, not many open options existed.
It's scary how serious they are.
Agree but the two Engram misses were awful as was the decision not to throw the ball into the end zone and instead get creamed.
I got through two. The second one, Eli was already cocked back about to release the ball when he circled the guy, who was no more open than the same route on the other side.
There were some alarming ones though.
These things are stupid because a guy may be oipen because Eli is either looking somewhere else or the coverage is rolled.
14 actually...
How many passes did Beckham catch in comparison to Barkley last week? Just curious.
The issue on I'd say half of those, even with the time is that they are slow developing plays and Eli has little time to throw a guy open or hope the WR gets to a spot. He is being gun shy, a few of those plays do clearly show it. Again, this thread is a perfect example of the have and have not mentality of this board and this game. He did have some guys get open, he didn't hit them, he also didn't have a lot of time and guys weren't looking. It's a total systemic failure and he's the trigger man and yes he deserves some flack for missed plays. He also deserves credit for not pitching it up there in desperation and tossing 2 or 3 INTs that get run back (I refuse to use the term "pick six", it's hipster sportball jibberish).
You can see that he does have guys run free and he misses it, that's not debatable on some of those plays but the defend Eli at all cost folks will rabble rabble rabble until everyone agrees that the OP is totally wrong. Instead, you should be watching each play, and thinking for yourself and figuring out that while half of those he's dead wrong, about half he isn't far off the mark. The first play for example, TOTALLY right read. If he throws that to Engram it's 6 for Dallas and he knows it, you don't throw late to the flat against zone coverage that far from the pocket.
The people who defend Eli at all costs like to say that he hasn't lost anything, that it's all on the OL, but would the 2011 Eli Manning miss those plays? He got pressured plenty that season, after all.
But he DID have good protection on some of those (and at least one other poor throw I can remember not in the clip). Not saying that he wasn't under heavy pressure for much of the game, but it wasn't the case on every single dropback the way some people are saying.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
No doubt Eli has misfired or ignored some glaring open receivers in two games this year, but if one were to look at these cutups in a vacuum, it would be easy to conclude that he just can't play anymore, irrespective of OL play.
In reality, we don't know what his reads or progressions are. Many of these are 3, 4 and even 5-man patterns, and in most cases Eli is, at best, getting to his second read because of pressure or his internal clock (another issue entirely). Coverage, down-and-distance, boundary vs. field, apparent blitz, etc. all dictate where Eli is looking to go with the football. On some of those plays, receivers appear to be wide open because DBs are breaking off coverage, based on the way a play develops or where the QB looks, and gambling that the ball is going elsewhere. That causes a receiver to appear to be open when, in reality, they were too far out of the play to be a viable option.
I'm not excusing Eli or any OL play, but I think this video illustrates just one of a panoply of factors which have led to such awful offensive output in two games.
There are times when Eli absolutely missed an open guy, not nearly as many as this guy points out. And I am sure Eli will take responsibility for it as well.
Quote:
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
Happens every week, in every game.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
Quote:
In comment 14083229 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You're right about some of them - there's one in particular where the guy says the receiver has a step when the freeze frame clearly shows them corner exactly even with the WR - but there are more than one or two where he had time and made a poor decision.
Exactly, nowhere did I say I agreed with everyone but there are some blatant misses that good qbs make.
This doesn't even show the two hopped screen pass.
ALL QB's have misses. Every game. Game changing misses.
Aaron Rodgers overthrew a wide open Jordy Nelson in the playoffs against us in 2011 on the opening drive. And there was nobody within 10 yards of Nelson, he just missed.
Tom Brady missed a wide open Wes Welker in the Superbowl.
And those are just massive games, but are two of the best, in big spots where they just had to hit those as is said here on BBI.
Happens every week, in every game.
Did you see Rodger's come back in week 1 with a porous Oline? Those two qbs make a lot more big plays than Eli has in recent years.
When the team fails to score points and sustain drives, you can't have big misses.
Quote:
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
And I actually agree with this. It's a combination of everything.
Hope Shurmer can get this straightened out, cause I love the scheme he runs.
And I actually agree with that. I wish he was making more plays.
Quote:
In comment 14083233 crick n NC said:
Quote:
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
Eli can still play - I have no question about that. He can't play behind a pathetic OL. That is on Gettleman. If his choice was to go into this season with Eli, that's fine...but to come into the season with this OL to protect him is a fireable offense.
This is how you go 3-15 over the last 18 games.
It's the most difficult part of discussing things around here. For so many posters, it HAS to be one thing or another. It can't be more than one issue at play simultaneously (which, is reality here).
The protection is bad AND Eli is missing some plays. His complete lack of mobility isn't helping, either.
Combine those things and that's how you wind up with a crappy offense.
Quote:
In comment 14083310 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14083233 crick n NC said:
Quote:
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
So you're only of your opinion to balance things out? Balanced thinking requires the thinker to gather all information then sort through for an educated opinion.
Ain't happening here on this team, though.
Quote:
In comment 14083333 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14083310 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14083233 crick n NC said:
Quote:
I just bet you're glowing with Joy to make this thread
Actually no, being that my college team is trash id rather the Giants win games.
I forgot, criticism isn't allowed..
Criticism is valuable when coming from an unbiased educated source (not necessarily the source in the link, although it seems it's valid to question it, but questioning your education on what you're seeing and hearing. That is not meant as a shot at you). Unfortunately you, at least in my opinion have not showed your self to be of balanced opinion about the qb playing here. If you ha've shown that I apologize, as I must ha've missed it.
How is offering a counter opinion to the Eli back patting not balanced? I was a staunch Eli defender through all the shit he got early in his career - when people wanted him gone in 2007. Times change, opinions change.
If there are videos of all the good throws and big time throws from the past two weeks, I'd post that too - but there haven't been many.
So you're only of your opinion to balance things out? Balanced thinking requires the thinker to gather all information then sort through for an educated opinion.
Yea and the educated opinion is even the offensive lineman are a bunch of fucksticks who can't pick elementary blitz schemes, there are still plays to be had, and that have to be made given the state of the team.
A number of QBs have horrid oline play, it's not just the oline at fault here.