I know this is likely a 0.001% chance, but what if this season spirals out of control? I fully believe DG made his moves with the belief this team could compete this year. If this season yields a 3-4 win total with seemingly no improvements & a 38 year old QB, how does Mara spin that?
I just can’t see how he can rationalize that to the fans after last season & all the moves made this past offseason. If the Giants fall to 0-3, the noise will become overwhelming facing Brees, a trip to CAR, Philly & a trip to Atlanta.
I know a lot disagree with this, but I really think Mara/DG backed themselves into a corner if this spirals. How do they sell this to the fans? I don’t know. A win Sunday would go a long way in quieting things down, but if not...yikes.
We are 2 weeks into a new regime and we are seriously asking if they will get fired already?
But, a new GM should be able to pick his own coach, etc, and I suspect Shurmur was a Mara favorite.
Half measures of changes are haunting this team.
I probably shouldn't be surprised and instead I should have expected this thread.
Health wise for DG. If he decides to retire (say announces it before seasons end) then there is that "out" for the owners as they get a new GM and he picks his own coach. Looks far less like a firing but essentially would be the same thing.
Its way way way too early to condemn a guy and his long term abilities to coach this team.However, decision making has not been his forte (at least in game wise) yet.
But, a new GM should be able to pick his own coach, etc, and I suspect Shurmur was a Mara favorite.
Half measures of changes are haunting this team.
And if plays out this way..the real fault in ALL this will lie at the feet of John Mara
If they were dead serious about contending this year, and pitched their plan as a return to competitive football in '18, I'd say they're probably still safe unless the returns are as bad or worse than last year.
Gettleman is not getting fired under any circumstance. If they go 0-16 he's not getting fired. This isn't his roster.
But, a new GM should be able to pick his own coach, etc, and I suspect Shurmur was a Mara favorite.
Half measures of changes are haunting this team.
Shurmur is 53 years old and was coming off running a great offense in Minnesota. I don't think hiring him was a half measure. Early returns on Patricia and Wilks are not impressive. Who were the other options?
No new coach and GM is getting fired in their first year.
We have 33 new players on the roster with more to come!
This is a new low.
No new coach and GM is getting fired in their first year.
We have 33 new players on the roster with more to come!
In fairness to Sean, Eric did mention this in a thread last night so it's not that outlandish. I agree it's completely farfetched, but who knows? A lot of what this organization has done lately makes little to no sense.
And you think they're going to turn around and fire the next one 2 games into his first season?
Basically meaning the Giants would have 4 different head coaches in under 12 months?
Get a hold of yourselves.
Yet, if we had a new QB, it would be looked at as wholesale changes.
It doesn't logically add up.
If you feel building around Eli is/was legit, you probably won't agree with me. I was ready to move on from Eli.
We have 33 new players. We're going to cut more from the last regime next offseason (Flowers and others likely).
We're talking a near complete roster turnover.
If you fire guys without a chance to build their own roster, you become no man's land for future coach and GM candidates.
Yet, if we had a new QB, it would be looked at as wholesale changes.
It doesn't logically add up.
I don't really grasp that either. Shurmur is 53. Gettleman was the GM for Carolina and had a ton of success there. We got rid of a ton of players. Gettleman is clearly turning over the roster but you can't do it overnight.
The only way that BBI would have NOT called it a half measure was if he hired some flashy GM and either Patricia or Wilks as HC, or maybe went against the grain and hired someone like DeFilippo or something.
Even if one believes that Shurmur is a mediocrity and Gettlemen hired to permit Jawn to continue meddling in personnel, this is ridiculous.
It really may have pushed some here over the edge.
I do think Mara made a weak choice, better option available or not.
As I've said a number of times, my goal on the season is to be watching meaningful football by Halloween, which we haven't done over the past several years. That goal may be a long shot, but I'm not going off the deep end after 2 games.
I do think Mara made a weak choice, better option available or not.
What do you mean "or not"? Were there better options available or weren't there? And if there weren't how can you call it weak?
Health wise for DG. If he decides to retire (say announces it before seasons end) then there is that "out" for the owners as they get a new GM and he picks his own coach. Looks far less like a firing but essentially would be the same thing.
Its way way way too early to condemn a guy and his long term abilities to coach this team.However, decision making has not been his forte (at least in game wise) yet.
This is how i envision it playing out with DG
To answer your question. I don't see the Giants firing Shurmer or Gettleman after this season. Barring some scandal, I think they have the reigns for at least 2 years minimum.
I wouldn't say they went through a reasonable process to get DG. They wanted him all along.
I think it went like this over the phone initially:
Mara: “Hello Ernie. It’s John. Hey listen we just relieved Jerry of...”
Accorsi: “Hire Dave...hire Dave!”
Mara: “you didn’t let me finish, but OK. We’ll pay you for that astute recommendation too. First we’ll line up some fake interviews so it doesn’t look like this was predetermined”
Accorsi: “Sounds good Boss. Hey, want to hear about that time I was having a catch with Bert Jones?”
Mara: “No.”
Obviously, we'd all rather be talking more positively about the team, but I don't see what's wrong with what he's asking here.
Kevin Abrams - worked under Reese
Dave Gettleman - worked under Accorsi & Reese
Louis Riddick - no NYG background
It is completely fair to be critical of the GM search.
Kevin Abrams - worked under Reese
Dave Gettleman - worked under Accorsi & Reese
Louis Riddick - no NYG background
It is completely fair to be critical of the GM search.
IF you were to be fair, you should also list the guys we SHOULD HAVE interviewed and why they COULD HAVE been better than DG.
If we were in corporate America and ran this search, it would be obvious to anyone watching that it was just a show. Riddick was the only one we gave serious consideration to, and he had limited experience.
At this point I can't see ANY way Manning is here next year. There wil be more roster upgrade and the fact that this is really a rebuild will be more evident. I'm as pissed off as everyone else but I will looking for improvement. That's all we have.
The professionals saw the inverse. That bothers me, erodes my confidence to an extent in their abilities. I wonder if they truly believed they were equipped to make a run, or were they aware it was more likely a transitional season which had a potential to get ugly, ugly.
Of course, we're only two games in and I didn't expect immediate results, I expected pain and 2-3 offseasons of work ahead ... but this thing still stinks.
It really may have pushed some here over the edge.
Nah. There were plenty of us who were iffy at best on hiring Gettleman the day it was announced.
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it - the team that made the Super Bowl had little to do with Dave Gettleman. Almost all of their best players were on the roster already the day he was hired: Newton, Olson, Davis, Norman, Kuechly.
This whole situation reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Carl Sagan: "The thing about science is it's after the way the universe really is, and not what makes us feel good. A lot of the competing doctrines are after what feels good and not what's true."
That's how I see this situation. On one hand you have faith: "It's only two games. The professionals know more than we do. Let's put our trust in them."
On the other hand you have numbers:
- 67 year old GM
- 37 year old QB with $45M cap hit over 2 years
- 21 year old QB with $30M cap hit over 4 years
- Average RB career length: 2.57 years
- Average PPG since we drafted Beckham (~$20M cap hit next 4 years): 21
The numbers tell me a story I don't like, and I'm not a man of faith.
DG was the "safe" choice the Giants wanted after the debacle that was last season. With the caveat that's it's just been two games, I am less convinced now of the wisdom of some of his moves, including signing Solder, Omameh, and trading for Ogletree. I wonder whether we should have signed Cameron Fleming. The irony is that his draft looks excellent. We obviously know nothing about Lauletta and McIntosh, but Barkley, Carter, and Hill were all excellent picks.
Why would DG and Shurmur be fired during this season?
He meant RB.
Quote:
- 21 year old QB with $30M cap hit over 4 years
He meant RB.
No I did not. That's Darnold's age and cost. Compare it to Eli's.
Quote:
In comment 14085119 Doomster said:
Quote:
- 21 year old QB with $30M cap hit over 4 years
He meant RB.
No I did not. That's Darnold's age and cost. Compare it to Eli's.
You're right, sorry. I misread.
I've been accursed of not being fed up and of being optimistic here.
No, I'm just being a little more patient. And yes, I'm still optimistic. I'm willing to give it time and not tear it all down after two games.
Terps, I said Beckham would roast Ramsey in week 1. He did. I did not say we would win only that I thought we could be competitive. We were.
I was wrong about Dallas. I thought we would explode on Dallas and I was wrong.
When should we stop being patient? Had we brought fresh eyes in at GM then I'd be more inclined to that, but we did not. We only interviewed one guy (Riddick) with no ties to the organization. The GM threw Eli out in front of an incompetent offensive line, not only destroying Eli's but Beckham's and Barkley's chances at achieving to their full potential.
When does this bullshit stop earning our benefit of the doubt?
For me personally, the choice is either try to be optimistic and patient, or stop watching because I don’t want to be miserable. I’m not there yet. Maybe I will be, but not yet.
short of that they are not getting fired.
And you think they're going to turn around and fire the next one 2 games into his first season?
Basically meaning the Giants would have 4 different head coaches in under 12 months?
Get a hold of yourselves.
Eddie DeBartolo had five coaches in three years.
Monte Clark 1976
Ken Meyer 1977
Pete McCully 1978 (fired after 1-8 start)
Fred O-Conner 1978 (fired at end of season after going 1-6)
Bill Walsh 1979 (considered GOAT by many)
So, changing coaches constantly is generally not a good idea. But sometimes it is a matter of finding a great coach rather than sticking with a mediocre one for the sake of continuity.
-Sticking with Eli
-Drafting Barkley
-Signing Solder
-Trading future assets for Ogletree
-Spending next years 3rd round pick on Beal
-Signing Beckham
In my opinion, you can’t make those moves and then say “it’s a rebuilding year”....pressure is on to win.
-Sticking with Eli
-Drafting Barkley
-Signing Solder
-Trading future assets for Ogletree
-Spending next years 3rd round pick on Beal
-Signing Beckham
In my opinion, you can’t make those moves and then say “it’s a rebuilding year”....pressure is on to win.
That is a completely fair expectation to have had based on the actions taken this offseason. To see them as fundamentally dysfunctional on the OL as they've been is offensive.
32 years and it has never been this bad.
Kevin Abrams - worked under Reese
Dave Gettleman - worked under Accorsi & Reese
Louis Riddick - no NYG background
It is completely fair to be critical of the GM search.
Just to tidy up your comments for accuracy...the fake GM search.
You have to include the key piece where Mara co-conspired with his trusted wizard Accorsi to hire pro-Eli, anti-Analytics, AARP eligible Gettleman...
That hire may be as good as a US Supreme Court seat. Until Gettleman dies or leaves on his own terms...
See the Young Andrew Belichick thread!
arniefez, micky and Doomster touted that line over and over again, with references not to the Supreme Court, but to the Pope.
When you look around and see that as the company espousing your views, you may want to run and hide.
Quote:
That hire may be as good as a US Supreme Court seat. Until Gettleman dies or leaves on his own terms..
arniefez, micky and Doomster touted that line over and over again, with references not to the Supreme Court, but to the Pope.
When you look around and see that as the company espousing your views, you may want to run and hide.
Those mother f-ckers. Mark and I used that back in the '80s when the search was on for Young's replacement.
To be fair, I don't really know those guys. I have seen arniefez and I must say, without knowing his history, I do like some of his views...
I'm sort of partial to the posters who constantly taunt and berate me... ;)
Quote:
That hire may be as good as a US Supreme Court seat. Until Gettleman dies or leaves on his own terms..
arniefez, micky and Doomster touted that line over and over again, with references not to the Supreme Court, but to the Pope.
When you look around and see that as the company espousing your views, you may want to run and hide.
I'm glad I suckered you into that..it worked!!
Now, if the Giants finish miserably this year (as I suspect) and follow up with another miserable year next year, then I think the duo won't make it to 2020.
arniefez : 5:38 pm : link : reply
I never said anything about Gettleman being a lifetime appointment. What i did say is he won't be fired. He'll retire.
You said Reese had a lifetime appointment. And guess what? He ain't dead.
Here’s my take on some of these burning issues…and they do need separating out.
1. Gettleman. To my mind he’s a pretty perfect hire. He did well in Carolina, a roster is not just a few star players and he did a solid job building a consistently strong team. He was an excellent pro personnel director for us. The anti-analytics stuff is so overdone and people just sound stupid repeating it. The Giants use analytics extensively at all levels of the organization. It is reasonable to second guess the appointment vs Riddick but personally the latter has a lot to prove. I don’t think it is reasonable to suggest that ownership are scared to look beyond the org. Whichever way you cut it Gettleman is a hugely respected figure and a sensible hire.
2. Shurmur…Less of a clear opinion. He needs to prove himself and that starts now…honeymoon is def over.
3. Should we have rebuilt and should we have taken Darnold? I think the answer to both is no. You can rebuild on the fly in the NFL and I dispute that you want to put a young QB behind this OL. You’ll just end up with David Carr. Barkley is a huge talent, he will make any QB better immediately. He will make any franchise better. Based on what we’ve seen so far hall of fame looks a realistic possibility and he’s a leader. He’s a Marshall Faulk who will make a Kurt Warner look great. I totally understand the pro-QB argument and it will be tough if Darnold has a 15 year career but the only score that matters is superbowls and I do think Barkley will help us get one.
4. Are we trying to win now? Yes of course the team is. I think it is absolutely clear that the Giants thought they could win by putting together an average OL and a ton of weapons with Eli good enough to play 2 or 3 more years. Personally I was quite in favour of this. I think our D is decent and the weapons are almost unique. If Eli has time I see no issues with his arm and decision-making. The concerns are A) he’s shot from seasons of hits but I feel this underrates his toughness massively and B) the game is just very tough on a pocket passer these days. There’s something to that last one but Ryan, Brady and co are still very successful with the right surrounding talent. The issue of course is the OL needs to get to average to make this all work and they’re not. They’re terrible.
5. Is there any cause for optimism? Of course. The OL only needs to get to average and this team will start scoring. It is too good not to. Its all an OL story. I suspect they won’t be good enough to win with in 2018 and the front office miscalculated but you never know. Was it a gamble worth taking? I kinda think it was. If the OL can come together I think Eli can kill it with these skill players. It seems unlikely but taking one last shot whilst you have a QB who can get it done on the big stage is never a bad gamble.
6. I think re-signing Beckham was a no-brainer. Terps would literally come in 0-16 and $50m under the cap each year in his grand vision.
6. I think re-signing Beckham was a no-brainer. Terps would literally come in 0-16 and $50m under the cap each year in his grand vision.
How does it make sense to pay Beckham when we can't even get him the ball? Beckham is by miles the most talented offensive player I've ever seen on the Giants, and the truth is the Giants have completely wasted him from day one and will continue to waste him this year. And they're already doing the same thing with Barkley.
You know what our record is since we drafted Beckham? 26-40. You know how many points we've scored per game since we drafted him? You want to know our PPG since we drafted him? 20.96.
The Giants have been severely misconstructed for years, and it continued this offseason. Anyone that feels good about where this team has been and currently is is living in a fucking fantasy world.
3 years? Is that a joke?