As it seems we are heading to another lost season, the things that really irks me is ownership.
I get it - they love Eli and wanted to try to win one more time with him. Therefore Mara and company deserve the complete blame for where we are now.
They wanted to fire Coughlin? Fine. But Reese should have been out the door with him to start fresh. But no, we keep our GM and promote a coordinator from inside our broken organization to head coach.
Then when they finally do hire a new GM, it's another familiar face to Mr. Mara. One who has ties to Eli.
This isn't about the Giants not drafting a QB at #2. This is about an ownership group that seems to be too far involved with day to day football operations and they only want to surround themselves with people that are going to carry out their bidding.
I really really hope Gettleman proves me wrong and really shapes this roster next offseason (we all knew it wouldn't be solved in one year). But the fact is, this starts at the top and I really don't have any more trust in our ownership group to do the right thing and stay out of the football operations.
But surprisingly, they seem to have a brighter future than the Giants.
Years of crappy drafting have created a team with no depth and a poor OL.
But surprisingly, they seem to have a brighter future than the Giants.
I had several sentences comparing the wilpons to the Giants ownership, but I deleted them. Wasn't willing to go there just yet... but it's not trending in a good direction
But when Mara manipulated the Eli benching last December, used McAdoo as a scapegoat, and then inexplicably brought in Accorsi for the GM search, it was once again clearer than ever that Mara is failing greatly as an owner and we're closer to another Dark Age at Jints Central than a light at the end of this tunnel...
Years of crappy drafting have created a team with no depth and a poor OL.
You know the meaning of empty stars right?
I wanted Darnold or Rosen in the draft but I am starting to think that this is going to mimic the Rams approach. Get the star RB then draft a QB the following year. If Eli is let go the Giants will have plenty of room to add a top OT in the draft plus add a starting C or G.
Looking at the positives DG brought in Barkley, Hernandez, BJ Hill, Lorenzo Carter, Mario Edwards, and Alec Ogletree in one offseason.
Talk about reaching. Football teams make mistakes. Not every team can be the New York Yankees or New England Patriots.
Yes Reese should have gone with Coughlin and there is no doubt it was TCs time to go. When management forces you to change your DC 3 times and OC twice but the HC keeps his job that is loyalty to the HC.
Yes I'm fine with John Mara.
AnnapolisMike : 1:59 pm : link : reply
Eli has a completion percentage of 75%, a rating of 99 and is on pace to throw for 4,200 yards.
You left out the part where he throws for a total of 16 tds, the team finishes 4-12, and and finish 29th in scoring with 18.2 ppg....
but I really cannot get over how little work went into finding the GM and to a lesser extend the head coach. there were a number of assistant GMs and directors of pro personnel of other teams that were widely regarded as candidates ready to take the next step. and he did not interview a single one of them. instead, he conducted a brief "search", including two internal candidates - one of whom was widely seen as responsible for the current mess - and one broadcaster before settling on a guy he knows who used to work with the team.
this all ultimately falls on Mara as the head honcho. maybe if we haven't hit rock bottom yet, tisch can get mara to take a ceremonial role and find an independent outsider to take control of team management.
I think they're so sold on the Giants Way that they're reluctant to let their thinking take a backseat to someone new. They believe that the overall success since Young took the GM role means that their decision making, even if only strategic and not in the day to day, is beyond examination.
That's why they were OK with promoting McAdoo, with dismissing Coughlin but retaining Reese, with bringing back Gettleman. They were all moves that were in line with the traditional Giants Way of doing things. That's why they were OK with Accorsi leading the GM search.
They were in dire need of an outside set of eyes - but were not going to bring in someone from the outside who didn't see things through their lens, which completely defeated the purpose.
They're in trouble - and the fish stinks from the head down.
When in fact if Mara gave a mandate that Eli must stay, it is a much bigger issue
I think they're so sold on the Giants Way that they're reluctant to let their thinking take a backseat to someone new. They believe that the overall success since Young took the GM role means that their decision making, even if only strategic and not in the day to day, is beyond examination.
That's why they were OK with promoting McAdoo, with dismissing Coughlin but retaining Reese, with bringing back Gettleman. They were all moves that were in line with the traditional Giants Way of doing things. That's why they were OK with Accorsi leading the GM search.
They were in dire need of an outside set of eyes - but were not going to bring in someone from the outside who didn't see things through their lens, which completely defeated the purpose.
They're in trouble - and the fish stinks from the head down.
You know the Giants way has yielded 4 Superbowl titles. Not for lack of trying but the Giants problem has been the inability to put a pocket in front of their pocket QB for the past 6 years.
We haven't done anything to show we can compete in a fast modernizing NFL.
I started to root against the Giants winning last year because I wanted them to clean house. I might be there again already. This team isn't going to the playoffs and I fear the only way ownership might actually accept the reality that they need a new leader is one or two years more of horrible play.
Honestly I might be willing to stomach that if we can actually get a lick of innovation in the building.
Some making fun of Jerry Jones or Snyder. I bet they didn't live through the Wellington years. Well they're living through them now.
Welcome to 1970's NY Giants football. 4-17 in their last 21 games. A hand picked GM from the tiny circle of Mara trust that no other NFL team would even interview. Hiring a coordinator to be HC who looks out of his league, possibly 2 in a row now. Spending the #2 pick in the draft on the most fungible position in the NFL when their QB is 37 years old. The Solder contract. There's more but you get the point.
It's deja vu all over again.
As soon as people understand that, everything else becomes very easy to understand.
That's not the story as I saw it. It seems like they were entertaining the idea of blowing it up if that came from a new set of eyes in the "Giants family" and Gettleman sold them on the fact that he could. Also everything we heard about Gettleman was he was a no nonsense guy that isn't beholden to anyone. Mara is absolutely part of the problem but that doesn't give Gettleman a pass in any way shape or form.
The reality is this. You cannot realistically expect to judge the owners over a 3 or 4 year period. Mistakes have been made and this is an unforgiving league intolerant of mistakes. I don't think anyone can refute that but the last 32 years have yielded 4 superbowls (and a fifth appearance) whereby statistically they should have yielded approximately one.
That is because the Giants way works. We are a good football organisation that routinely makes solid football decisions and allows people to succeed or fail with class. Meanwhile the same horrific posters who wanted to get rid of Coughlin for McAdoo but now fete him at Jacksonville ponder should they allow their "loyalty" to continue for a 5th week of a new regime. These people would have traded Eli for Fitzpatrick three times by now and wonder why they're still trophyless.
It's just embarrassing to be a part of this fanbase at times.
Quote:
At some point, you have to consider that maybe you're part of the problem.
I think they're so sold on the Giants Way that they're reluctant to let their thinking take a backseat to someone new. They believe that the overall success since Young took the GM role means that their decision making, even if only strategic and not in the day to day, is beyond examination.
That's why they were OK with promoting McAdoo, with dismissing Coughlin but retaining Reese, with bringing back Gettleman. They were all moves that were in line with the traditional Giants Way of doing things. That's why they were OK with Accorsi leading the GM search.
They were in dire need of an outside set of eyes - but were not going to bring in someone from the outside who didn't see things through their lens, which completely defeated the purpose.
They're in trouble - and the fish stinks from the head down.
You know the Giants way has yielded 4 Superbowl titles. Not for lack of trying but the Giants problem has been the inability to put a pocket in front of their pocket QB for the past 6 years.
I know, and so are they. That's the past, though. They've had bad results for quite some time now.
And it's not as simple as 'we need an OL'. In 2015, they were scoring points in droves - but the D was a disaster. In 2016, the defense was much improved, and the offense vanished.
Something is broken. Now's not the time to hang on to the past, ownership should be thinking about whether or not it's time to make some changes to the Giants MO.
The reality is this. You cannot realistically expect to judge the owners over a 3 or 4 year period. Mistakes have been made and this is an unforgiving league intolerant of mistakes. I don't think anyone can refute that but the last 32 years have yielded 4 superbowls (and a fifth appearance) whereby statistically they should have yielded approximately one.
That is because the Giants way works. We are a good football organisation that routinely makes solid football decisions and allows people to succeed or fail with class. Meanwhile the same horrific posters who wanted to get rid of Coughlin for McAdoo but now fete him at Jacksonville ponder should they allow their "loyalty" to continue for a 5th week of a new regime. These people would have traded Eli for Fitzpatrick three times by now and wonder why they're still trophyless.
It's just embarrassing to be a part of this fanbase at times.
what some call classy, I would call befuddled, slow to react and overly risk averse.
Years of crappy drafting have created a team with no depth and a poor OL.
and we score no points and we don't win any games. Why don't you put that QB rating trophy on your desk. Maybe have Eli sign it for you too.
When you are done with that, go and read up on how the QB ratings are calculated and then ask yourself as to whether that stat should mean anything at all.
You know the Giants way has yielded 4 Superbowl titles. Not for lack of trying but the Giants problem has been the inability to put a pocket in front of their pocket QB for the past 6 years.
The Giants Way was really '84 through '90 when they grabbed 2 SBs. I was a teenager.
The organization was at it's peak. Discounting '87 because it was a strike year, and many games were played with replacement players, the team had a winning record every year. And they made the playoffs in 5 out of 6 years. The only year they didn't was '88 when they went a very respectable 10-6. Overall, they were 68-28.
I've dubbed it the Camelot Era for Giants football. They were a powerhouse and in the hunt year after year. An organization with a real identity.
Since then, the team has been a more disorganized than organized. Sure, they got to 3 SBs and won 2. But there hasn't been year over year consistency and each of those SB victories was really more surprise than expected. An argument can be made that this last ten years has been a decade wasted - either not going enough in to support Eli's prime or simply not moving on from Eli sooner.
So I'm not sure what's been so "steady" the last 25+ years.
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You know the Giants way has yielded 4 Superbowl titles. Not for lack of trying but the Giants problem has been the inability to put a pocket in front of their pocket QB for the past 6 years.
The Giants Way was really '84 through '90 when they grabbed 2 SBs. I was a teenager.
The organization was at it's peak. Discounting '87 because it was a strike year, and many games were played with replacement players, the team had a winning record every year. And they made the playoffs in 5 out of 6 years. The only year they didn't was '88 when they went a very respectable 10-6. Overall, they were 68-28.
I've dubbed it the Camelot Era for Giants football. They were a powerhouse and in the hunt year after year. An organization with a real identity.
Since then, the team has been a more disorganized than organized. Sure, they got to 3 SBs and won 2. But there hasn't been year over year consistency and each of those SB victories was really more surprise than expected. An argument can be made that this last ten years has been a decade wasted - either not going enough in to support Eli's prime or simply not moving on from Eli sooner.
So I'm not sure what's been so "steady" the last 25+ years.
2005-2011
Made the playoffs 5/7 years (missed the playoffs in 2010 at a "very respectable 10-6"), 69-43 record, 2 Championships.
Not consistent enough for you?
2005-2011
Made the playoffs 5/7 years (missed the playoffs in 2010 at a "very respectable 10-6"), 69-43 record, 2 Championships.
Not consistent enough for you?
No. They missed the playoffs two years in a row and in the two other years they got knocked out of the playoffs in the first round. And the one year they made the playoffs they were 8-8 and basically back-doored it.
That Parcells Era the team lost in the first round just once - the Flipper Game against the Rams. That team was a legit SB contender.
The reality is this. You cannot realistically expect to judge the owners over a 3 or 4 year period. Mistakes have been made and this is an unforgiving league intolerant of mistakes. I don't think anyone can refute that but the last 32 years have yielded 4 superbowls (and a fifth appearance) whereby statistically they should have yielded approximately one.
That is because the Giants way works. We are a good football organisation that routinely makes solid football decisions and allows people to succeed or fail with class. Meanwhile the same horrific posters who wanted to get rid of Coughlin for McAdoo but now fete him at Jacksonville ponder should they allow their "loyalty" to continue for a 5th week of a new regime. These people would have traded Eli for Fitzpatrick three times by now and wonder why they're still trophyless.
It's just embarrassing to be a part of this fanbase at times.
Some statistical analysis from one of the "dicks"
Pittsburgh, San Diego and the Giants all drafted franchise QBs in 2004. Our records since then (not including this year)
Steelers - 150-74
Chargers - 127-97
Giants - 116-108
Getting the franchise QB is the hardest part and we don't win either of our super bowls without some amazing play from Eli. Nobody is going to argue that the Chargers are some world beating organization yet since we all drafted franchise QBs we've had the worst regular season record. That to me says we have a talent evaluation problem, we aren't building a team to compete in the modern NFL and we are being left behind.
I've posted this before, but where are the Giants on things like this? No where.
Ever wonder why the Patriots have been so successful. See what is said about them in The Great Analytics Rankings
That's right the Patriots have been working on software systems for decades and we hired a senior citizen that doesn't believe in analytics to bring us back to winning football.
Yeah, it's always a good idea to count on businesses that refuse to modernize to beat the ones that do.
English Alaister is dead on here. These threads serve one purpose - to unite a bunch of people who subscribe to the theory that Giants ownership is equal parts puppet masters, yet too stupid to get out of their own way, yet somehow have managed to win a SB in every decade since the 70's ended.
Also conveniently left out is the one year where we had a hell of a chance to make some noise in the 80's and didn't even get into the playoffs - thanks to the Jets...
You probably don't realize this, but Gettleman completely revamped the analytical team in Carolina to modernize it. His protege Brandon Beane has taken those improvements and has implemented it in Buffalo.
It is like some of you guys just make up shit or fail to look at the past.
bw concocts the scenario that Gettleman is a yes man here to preserve Eli's legacy when the evidence shows that Gettleman was actually fired in Carolina for refusing to do so.
It is one of the more ponderous lines of thinking on BBI
Please no more mention of other classless owners as being worse than the Maras. No one I have read has posted that Mara is a classless person. My kids like to defend themselves and their actions by telling me how much worse some other kid is or would be in the same situation. No one is asking to bring in Snyder or Jerry Jones.
There weren't any. He was desperate to get back in the game and completely lucked out when Mara brought in Accorsi.
Since Parcells left the Giants have not won a single playoff game in 23 out of 27 seasons including this one. It's great for all of us Giants fans that they went to 3 Super Bowls and won 2. All the credit in the world to the owners players and coaches for those years even though 2000 had such a painful ending.
None of those years were really great regular seasons though. The Giants have won 12 games in a season only twice since 1991 and never more than 12. Aside from the 3 Super Bowl runs they've won 1 other playoff game period.
Don't get me wrong I know since 1991 the Eagles have won 1. The Redskins not since 92. Dallas not since 95. Winning 2 and going to 3 is not to be taken for granted. But there's nothing else.
There's no consistent winning or organizational model when it comes to the Giants. Just two glorious outlier seasons that will probably have to keep us happy for a long time.
Quote:
You probably don't realize this, but Gettleman completely revamped the analytical team in Carolina to modernize it. His protege Brandon Beane has taken those improvements and has implemented it in Buffalo.
It is like some of you guys just make up shit or fail to look at the past.
bw concocts the scenario that Gettleman is a yes man here to preserve Eli's legacy when the evidence shows that Gettleman was actually fired in Carolina for refusing to do so.
It is one of the more ponderous lines of thinking on BBI
Bully for him! Can you tell me who within the Giants organization is running our technology program? Do we have someone that is an expert in data creation and architecture like I linked from the Steelers?
I've been building predictive systems for financial institutions for 7 years now and I've seen inside many organizations. And a few observations:
1) Just because someone is committed to building a software program doesn't make it a good one
2) If you can lead a team that creates technology that differentiates your analytical results you wouldn't be let go and on the off chance you clashed with management and got fired you wouldn't be out of a job for very long
3) If your stuff works people know about it, no matter how quiet you try to keep it. Can you show me any articles touting the systems he set up in Carolina? I can easily find stuff on the Jags, Pats, Eagles.
4) When organizations want to lead a modernization effort, how many of them do you think turn to 67 year olds?
But if true , a mandate in regard to Eli, would bother me. But not to the extent that I ve stopped believing the Giants are in good hands.
Since Parcells left the Giants have not won a single playoff game in 23 out of 27 seasons including this one. It's great for all of us Giants fans that they went to 3 Super Bowls and won 2. All the credit in the world to the owners players and coaches for those years even though 2000 had such a painful ending.
None of those years were really great regular seasons though. The Giants have won 12 games in a season only twice since 1991 and never more than 12. Aside from the 3 Super Bowl runs they've won 1 other playoff game period.
Don't get me wrong I know since 1991 the Eagles have won 1. The Redskins not since 92. Dallas not since 95. Winning 2 and going to 3 is not to be taken for granted. But there's nothing else.
There's no consistent winning or organizational model when it comes to the Giants. Just two glorious outlier seasons that will probably have to keep us happy for a long time.
Our last 2 SB wins were not an outlier. It was Accorsi's vision to stockpile our team with pass rushing DE, who got hot in a sort of feeding frenzy at the right time.
Let's just say we were no longer ble to continue this model. Drafting Damontre Moore wasn't working, and of course we bring back Spags because nostalgia.
AnnapolisMike : 1:59 pm : link : reply
Eli has a completion percentage of 75%, a rating of 99 and is on pace to throw for 4,200 yards.
You left out the part where he throws for a total of 16 tds, the team finishes 4-12, and and finish 29th in scoring with 18.2 ppg....
And if the Giants indeed finish this year at 4-12, Eli's career record, after 15 full seasons, would be 115 wins and 115 losses.
Think about that the next time someone has the urge to be the first to post Eli surpassing so-and-so and moving into 7th all time in this stat, or 8th all time in that stat.
The standard of excellence for personal stats has evolved a lot as the NFL has evolved a lot, but for the paramount important measure -- the # of victories -- the standard has remained constant: a 12-4 record in 2018 is as great an accomplishment as it was in 1985.
Disclaimer: Yes I deeply appreciate Eli's two Super Bowl wins -- I was at Indy to witness the second one. And yes I am fully aware football is a team game, with one salient example being the Giants would not have won either one of Eli's two Super Bowls if their defense were substituted by any of the other 31 NFL defenses.
Carry on. We have a new tradition of excellence to look forward to due to failed leadership.
ever since then -- the player moves and drafts have mostly been terrible ..
worse .. when they let go Tom Coughlin -Giant could have kicked him upstairs ..Coughlin literally hung around the Giants facility for a year waiting for that job
but they could never offer it to him because Chris Mara already is in that position
so Coughlin goes to Jags and steers their franchise .to winning records and playoff appereancss
enough of rich white dudes who are born on third base and think they hit a triple
Nepotism sucks
Quote:
You bunch of dicks don't even have the first idea what loyalty entails. Instead we get threads like 'Do Gettleman and Schumer (presumably not Amy) deserve to be publicly lashed?' 'Is Vernon tougher than a 6 year old girl?' or this peach. It is no wonder posters like Fatman or B in ALB who has an idea what a pro locker room look like can't take any more of this nonsense. Don't even start me on bw and his jints central act which has routinely been a guide to a team about to go to a superbowl but is now scaling new levels of conjecture and hyperbole.
The reality is this. You cannot realistically expect to judge the owners over a 3 or 4 year period. Mistakes have been made and this is an unforgiving league intolerant of mistakes. I don't think anyone can refute that but the last 32 years have yielded 4 superbowls (and a fifth appearance) whereby statistically they should have yielded approximately one.
That is because the Giants way works. We are a good football organisation that routinely makes solid football decisions and allows people to succeed or fail with class. Meanwhile the same horrific posters who wanted to get rid of Coughlin for McAdoo but now fete him at Jacksonville ponder should they allow their "loyalty" to continue for a 5th week of a new regime. These people would have traded Eli for Fitzpatrick three times by now and wonder why they're still trophyless.
It's just embarrassing to be a part of this fanbase at times.
Some statistical analysis from one of the "dicks"
Pittsburgh, San Diego and the Giants all drafted franchise QBs in 2004. Our records since then (not including this year)
Steelers - 150-74
Chargers - 127-97
Giants - 116-108
Getting the franchise QB is the hardest part and we don't win either of our super bowls without some amazing play from Eli. Nobody is going to argue that the Chargers are some world beating organization yet since we all drafted franchise QBs we've had the worst regular season record. That to me says we have a talent evaluation problem, we aren't building a team to compete in the modern NFL and we are being left behind.
I've posted this before, but where are the Giants on things like this? No where.
Ever wonder why the Patriots have been so successful. See what is said about them in The Great Analytics Rankings
Quote:
Owner Robert Kraft worked with a former colleague in the 1990s to create statistical models for player valuation. And for the past 15 years, Belichick has relied heavily on his football research director, Ernie Adams, a former Wall Street trader who collaborates with the coach to develop a variety of cutting-edge approaches to team building and game play.
That's right the Patriots have been working on software systems for decades and we hired a senior citizen that doesn't believe in analytics to bring us back to winning football.
Yeah, it's always a good idea to count on businesses that refuse to modernize to beat the ones that do.
This is the kind of post that I refer to. Every. Single. NFL. Team. Uses. Analytics. The Giants do and heavily. I know this for a fact. They use predictive, they use modelling they track every snap of every player college and pro.
How far do you want to take it though? Clearly you're super committed to it as it's your profession and great for you but for me I think it is just a data point and it will always struggle to be as effective in football as in baseball for what I'm sure are very obvious reasons to you.
Still, you remain convinced the Giants refuse to modernise and the Jags, Eagles and others are mentioned. Do you think Coughlin suddenly became a numbers guy? No... he was for years at the giants. The Eagles are a smart org you say and the numbers told them... to hire Ben McAdoo. I note today Eli is top 4 in passes completed above expectation for example. To steal from the sage Bill2 you can torture the data into confessing any number of ways.
Ultimately numbers rarely tell you who is going to break out, who brings others together in a locker room and who brings something even greater than wins to a community. Football isn't wall street. It's a hugely complex interdependent operation more akin to predicting the weather than analysing trading patterns.
I think this roster is ill equipped for today's NFL. The organisation is not. Trust DG. He won't let you down and certainly not in the manner you suggest.
ever since then -- the player moves and drafts have mostly been terrible ..
worse .. when they let go Tom Coughlin -Giant could have kicked him upstairs ..Coughlin literally hung around the Giants facility for a year waiting for that job
but they could never offer it to him because Chris Mara already is in that position
so Coughlin goes to Jags and steers their franchise .to winning records and playoff appereancss
enough of rich white dudes who are born on third base and think they hit a triple
Nepotism sucks
It is nepotism of course but ask Bill Parcells (seeing as he seems to be good on this thread) what he thinks of Chris Mara. Whilst you're there kill two birds with one stone and ask him what he thinks of Odell too.
Spineless
I just hope the media take him to task often and directly
From 84-90 and 07-11 the Giants have been the envy of the league. Those are amazing stretches, but those eras are long gone and not indicative of future success.
The Giants have won playoff games in 3 out of the of the 40 other years in the Super Bowl era.
The team has sucked hard for 5 of the last 6 years. As do coaches, GMs, and players some times owners get worse or have shitty streaks in decision making. Mara is in one of those streaks.
It will be a long, long road if the Giants are slapping backs over what they accomplished with Coughlin.