for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Reading between the lines, the lack of deep passing....

Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 8:59 am
is by design. You can get on Eli all you want, but both his and Shurmer's statements to the press back it up. They are being risk averse by not taking chances. Eli is being coached not to push the ball downfield if the defense isn't giving him the look.

Shurmer:

Quote:
A: Again, I mentioned it yesterday, we took some shots and they were playing in two-shell, so the ball gets checked down. Thats one reason for it.

A: Yeah, we called them. There were deep routes called that we couldnt get the ball downfield, so you check it down. Then you move on.

A: You call plays to be aggressive. If theyre there, you take your shots. Thats how you dictate. And if theyre not there, you check them down, and then the backs catch the ball and run with it. Youre talking about seven-eight yard gains, which is fine, so thats how you dictate. Then you make them defend those. Thats how you dictate, and then when you choose to run the ball, you make yardage.


Eli:

Quote:
Q: If the defense is taking away those deep routes, is it worth it at all to take a shot anyway, even though the coverage isnt ideal for that?

A: That usually leads to bad plays. Theres ways to get explosive plays without throwing it deep. Its not like they all have to be go-routes or post-routes. Hitting guys on the move when they do play man, in zones you can still hit plays. In breaking routes and buying time. You can still hit explosive plays when teams are trying to take away the deep shots.


This is all being coached.

Look at Case Keenum's numbers last year:

68% completion percentage. 3500 yards, 22 TD's, only 7 INT's.

This is the pace Eli is on, only Eli is not Case Keenum. Shurmer needs to open it up, IMO.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 <<Prev | Show All |
Britt  
Go Terps : 10/2/2018 7:55 pm : link
Do you know how much shit I catch for some of the things I post here?

We all want Eli to succeed. But it's a crucial distinction between what we want and what is. Last night on the MNF thread I got called a whiny bitch by a couple posters unwilling to accept that the Giants are shit, and should be called out for being shit at every possible opportunity. The last 6 years with this team have been dominated by words like "if", "hope", and "maybe". "If we get the OL fixed..." "I hope X matures..." "Maybe we get lucky with injuries..."

I'm tired of hearing those words associated with the Giants. I have no time or use for faith. I want a plan. I want to see a plan for how this horseshit is going to stop. But I'm not seeing a plan. I'm seeing more "if", "hope", and "maybe".

There's a great Churchill quote, "If you're going through hell, keep going." We're in hell right now, but we aren't going anywhere.
RE: The Broncos were killing the Chiefs cover 2 last night  
djm : 10/2/2018 7:56 pm : link
In comment 14103074 arniefez said:
Quote:
It was fun to watch. That game was more entertaining than the last 20 Giant games combined.


And the broncos lost.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Diver_Down : 10/2/2018 7:57 pm : link
In comment 14104146 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14103987 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14103841 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103828 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14103826 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant.



Did you also not spend the offseason bragging about how this was going to be Eli's revenge tour? Even dep distinguishes himself by saying at least he's not at your level of "fandom" when it comes to Eli, and he's right.

I defy you to find one other poster who believes right now that Eli is going to get an EXTENSION after this season. Try and find one.



I ignored this thread not because Britt started it, but because the 300+ posts. I knew it would be a bitch fest. But I'm bored and began to read. You want one poster? Here I am. I'm probably a bit further in Eli's camp than Britt. I've mentioned a possible extension last year, over the summer, and recently just today on another thread. You can even search through the archives when I advocated that Eli should hold out 2 years ago. Gatorade Dunk and I went back and forth and I said then that it was more likely that Eli gets a new contract. Gatorade Dunk bet me at the time (no specific terms other than a simple I'm right/wrong).


Ah, the good old days! D_D, we so rarely agree but I do always respect your take. Even though you're stone cold wrong about an extension.


And I respect you. Again not to underscore the premise of this thread (or not), but I have a strong suspicion that I'm right. DG loves Eli. When we were going back and forth then, Reese was in charge and I'll admit, it didn't look like my prediction would be correct.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Just for the record  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 7:58 pm : link
In comment 14104142 Gatorade Dunk
Quote:


The problem is that Eli needs the exact same supporting cast as a rookie QB would, but costs 5x what a rookie QB would cost. A franchise QB with a franchise QB price tag needs to be able to overcome some roster weakness created by his own cap number. Eli, seemingly, no longer can do that.


Hence why 2019 the giants should have a new QB. Ive felt that for awhile now.
The sad part was that Britt was right about what DG would do  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/2/2018 8:09 pm : link
And that us fans were right about what should have been done. Thats some soul crushing thoughts as a fan when we outmaneuver the GM.

Since we were right Elis last year or years here will be rooted in futility. Im losing hope this FO has any clue at all now.
RE: Just for the record  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:13 pm : link
In comment 14104151 dep026 said:
Quote:

Hence why 2019 the giants should have a new QB. Ive felt that for awhile now.


Dep: I think DG and PS thought the Oline would be improved substantially this year, finish the job next year. The efforts they've made have not borne fruit...yet.

They drafted the best guy in the draft, grabbed Lauletta, cut Webb and are likely heavily scouting QBs now. Unless they go ga-ga for Lauletta, one will be drafted next year or obtained from the Vikings.

Then you have Barkley & good young QB prospect.
Relax. It's gunna happen.

RE: The sad part was that Britt was right about what DG would do  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:16 pm : link
In comment 14104163 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
And that us fans were right about what should have been done.


Dammit Jim! You realize that you and some other fans have now claimed they know more about scouting QBs and team building than DG & Co?

If serious it's laughable.
...  
christian : 10/2/2018 8:20 pm : link
This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.
Its not about scouting  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/2/2018 8:22 pm : link
Its knowing that Trotting Eli out here wasnt heading anywhere. It was time to move on and they had the draft capital to do it without paying an exorbitant price. That shit is rare. #2 pick in a QB rich draft. Looked obvious to me.
RE: ...  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:23 pm : link
In comment 14104171 christian said:
Quote:
This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.


Logical takes, Mr. Christian? I'm about ready to get my prescription pad and write out scripts for 1/2 the folks on this thread!
RE: RE: ...  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 8:26 pm : link
In comment 14104175 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 14104171 christian said:


Quote:


This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.



Logical takes, Mr. Christian? I'm about ready to get my prescription pad and write out scripts for 1/2 the folks on this thread!


If you've been watching this offense for the past few years; yes, completely logical takes based in reality.

This offense hasn't scored 30 point in 3 years. A league that is borderline BEGGING teams to score as many points as possible. Think about that.

Some folks need to open up their eyes. It's not 2011 anymore.
RE: Its not about scouting  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:26 pm : link
In comment 14104174 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Its knowing that Trotting Eli out here wasnt heading anywhere. It was time to move on and they had the draft capital to do it without paying an exorbitant price. That shit is rare. #2 pick in a QB rich draft. Looked obvious to me.


I think Eli's issues are 100% Oline related. For you to be right here, either Darnold or Rosen need to become franchise type QBs. (Please don't mention Allen or I will have lost respect for you.)
In all honesty I wanted to trade Eli  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/2/2018 8:27 pm : link
Not because I wanted high draft picks but I thought he deserved a shot at wining a ring. I thought in Denver with those weapons and that defense, hed have a shot.

Him returning here I thought theyd be mediocre, whats the point? To win 6-8 games?

Blah doesnt matter anymore, were in shits creek now.
RE: ...  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 8:27 pm : link
In comment 14104171 christian said:
Quote:
This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.


Someone said I was logical in regards to Eli. Oh fuck yeah!!! Ive turned the corner.

But one thing I will note. I went back and forth with a few people this thread and I noticed one thing. Lot of disagreeing.... nothing that came close to crossing the line or personal. Kudos to all.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:29 pm : link
In comment 14104178 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:

If you've been watching this offense for the past few years; yes, completely logical takes based in reality.

This offense hasn't scored 30 point in 3 years. A league that is borderline BEGGING teams to score as many points as possible. Think about that.

Some folks need to open up their eyes. It's not 2011 anymore.


My take is that the Oline cannot pass or run block year after year. If the Giants need big bucks to fix it, yes, cut Eli next year and do whatever it takes to buy the fix with that savings. Then get some kid QB on the cheap. We are set for skill players on offense.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 10/2/2018 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14104181 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14104171 christian said:


Quote:


This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.



Someone said I was logical in regards to Eli. Oh fuck yeah!!! Ive turned the corner.

But one thing I will note. I went back and forth with a few people this thread and I noticed one thing. Lot of disagreeing.... nothing that came close to crossing the line or personal. Kudos to all.


And Dep was accused of being logical regarding Manning.

Which to be fair, you've been pretty right on the mark the last several months.
RE: I'm an Eli fan,  
mako J : 10/2/2018 10:22 pm : link
In comment 14104136 Photoguy said:
Quote:
but reasonable enough not to be an apologist, and it kills me to see him fail, because when he fails, the offense fails. Whatever the problems are, they need to be addressed and corrected. Nothing else matters. I looked at this year as a 'bridge' year for Gettleman and Shurmer to establish a foundation going forward. I really think they viewed Eli as part of that bridge to get to the next era of Giants football.

Nothing's working much right now, but I have faith that things will work out.......maybe not this year, but in the next couple years. I'm not anxious to get into a head coach a year deal. I'm solidly behind this GM/HC team.

JMHO


+1
RE: Its not about scouting  
Jimmy Googs : 10/2/2018 10:29 pm : link
In comment 14104174 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Its knowing that Trotting Eli out here wasnt heading anywhere. It was time to move on and they had the draft capital to do it without paying an exorbitant price. That shit is rare. #2 pick in a QB rich draft. Looked obvious to me.


Agree with you Jim. Happy as hell to have SB as he is the goods and a nice asset going forward. But have always intimated the real restructuring of this team will not occur until we have a new guy under center.

2017 and 2018 seasons really have served no other purpose than drafting a few chess pieces for the next stage of this franchise. Other than that, it has been a huge waste of time...



.  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:36 am : link
Quote:
Ralph Vacchiano

Verified account

@RVacchianoSNY
Following Following @RVacchianoSNY
More
Giants coach Pat Shurmur to the teams website: Thats a false narrative that we werent trying to throw the ball down the field. Thats a false narrative, and if for some reason, they legislate against it, we have to check the ball down, keep the chains moving.


Quote:
Ralph Vacchiano

Verified account

@RVacchianoSNY
Following Following @RVacchianoSNY
More Ralph Vacchiano Retweeted Ralph Vacchiano
Shurmur on how tightly teams cover Odell Beckham: You see how one question is totally opposite from the other? Just throw it to Odell, no matter what, but then hey, by the way, they were surrounding him.


Quote:
Ralph Vacchiano

Verified account

@RVacchianoSNY
Following Following @RVacchianoSNY
More Ralph Vacchiano Retweeted Ralph Vacchiano
More Shurmur via @giantseisen: Just to chuck the ball down the field with no regard for how theyre covering you at times is reckless. It has to be strategic.
OBJ is on a video on ESPN  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 9:42 am : link
indicating Giants do not play with enough heart and he is questioning why they do not "even attempt" to throw the ball 20+ yards...

Sounds like that's a direct answer from Shurmur to that....  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:44 am : link
unless you think he's lying.
Look, you can keep beating the drum that Eli is a chickenshit....  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:45 am : link
and let's face it, that's what's being said.

But Shurmur is coaching this. The answers above can't get anymore direct than that. Case Keenum is echoing similar statements on another team, which tells you that that's what he was coached to do as well.

It's a new offense, and that's what they're preaching. Right, wrong, or indifferent.
You can take the words at face value.  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:47 am : link
Or you can create alternate realities where there is some front office conspiracy to deflect blame from Manning at all costs.

That's the offensive philosophy.

Hopefully it will open up as we move forward.
RE: OBJ is on a video on ESPN  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:48 am : link
In comment 14107065 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
indicating Giants do not play with enough heart and he is questioning why they do not "even attempt" to throw the ball 20+ yards...


And when in his entire career has Manning been scared of forcing a throw. Give me a break. He's changed because the way he's being coached to play has changed.

He went from high risk, high reward offense to low risk, no reward offense.
I think they better work on executing their check-downs better  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 9:49 am : link
if that is what is going to move the chains, and create scores.

Otherwise he is lying to himself...
RE: I think they better work on executing their check-downs better  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 14107085 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
if that is what is going to move the chains, and create scores.

Otherwise he is lying to himself...


Agreed.
Don't get so excited...nobody called Eli chicken-shit  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 9:52 am : link
do you always like to create your own conversations?

I put the OBJ comment out there because right/wrong/indifferent Shurmur has to keep this team together and you can see it slipping already...
Let's be real...  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:54 am : link
The whole narrative this week is that Eli is scared of pressure, real or perceived, this week and that's why he won't throw the ball downfield. Basically chickensh-t.
RE: OBJ is on a video on ESPN  
ron mexico : 10/5/2018 9:57 am : link
In comment 14107065 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
indicating Giants do not play with enough heart and he is questioning why they do not "even attempt" to throw the ball 20+ yards...


link?

this seems to be  
ron mexico : 10/5/2018 10:03 am : link
what you are talking about
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Let's be real...  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:15 am : link
In comment 14107097 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
The whole narrative this week is that Eli is scared of pressure, real or perceived, this week and that's why he won't throw the ball downfield. Basically chickensh-t.


Man, you gotta take it down a notch...

What the hell difference does this week's narrative (or any other week's) matter? Its like posters are criticizing you and our family the way you respond try to fend off these comments.

Shurmur's gameplan aside, Eli isn't at all comfortable anymore when he drops back to pass, and we don't need to go into the numerous reasons why that is valid or not. He simply is not. And its not helping the offense...
What the hell is this message board then if not for that?  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:17 am : link
I don't agree that he won't throw it down field because he's scared.

I think it's what Shurmur is coaching.
Hell, even Shurmur mentioned the narrative:  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:20 am : link
Quote:
Thats a false narrative that we werent trying to throw the ball down the field. Thats a false narrative, and if for some reason, they legislate against it, we have to check the ball down, keep the chains moving.
Just put it on the list  
Keith : 10/5/2018 10:21 am : link
as another person who is at fault for the offenses failures. Its never Eli.
The Saints defender is the one who said he was scared  
jcn56 : 10/5/2018 10:23 am : link
On BBI, we've seen repeatedly people mentioning his anticipation of pressure that isn't there, and that his internal clock is off.

I don't think Eli's afraid to take the hit. I think after being sacked so many times, and in an attempt to reduce the number of sacks and fumbles, he throws the ball when he senses the pocket is starting to collapse, often to a checkdown. That, combined with the overall scheme of working short to intermediate passes and trying to get the ball out quicker to offset the rush is resulting in a dysfunctional offense.
RE: Just put it on the list  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:23 am : link
In comment 14107165 Keith said:
Quote:
as another person who is at fault for the offenses failures. Its never Eli.


See, this is what is frustrating....

It's not about Eli. It's about the quarterback, okay? It's about what the quarterback is being asked to do within the system, and I've posted a ton of stuff on this very thread about that. Case Keenum was doing the same things in Minny last year, saying the same things.

This is what Shurmur is coaching.
It's not about absolving Eli at this point....  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:24 am : link
I'm trying to figure out why the offense is underperforming.
The one thing I dont get it  
dep026 : 10/5/2018 10:25 am : link
Even I can blame Eli for his faults this year.... HE was too reactionary in the Saints game, he missed some throws against JAX. Dallas game I put more on the OL.

But it just seems now its all Eli or all someone else. This is an Eli problem. Its a Shurmur problem. Its an OL problem. And some can be attest to injuries (no EE last week), no reliable deep threat outside OBJ (Russell Shepard, really?).

Our problems wont be solved by changing one player or one coach or a few OL. We need EVERYTHING to change for the better.
What I don't understand....  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:28 am : link
Is when the Saints were clearly in zone coverage and taking away everything past 15 yards, why we didn't run the ball down their throat, or at least try to.

We also missed Engram last week, up the seam.
RE: What the hell is this message board then if not for that?  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:31 am : link
In comment 14107158 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't agree that he won't throw it down field because he's scared.

I think it's what Shurmur is coaching.


Yes...lets blame Shurmur.
RE: It's not about absolving Eli at this point....  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 14107174 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I'm trying to figure out why the offense is underperforming.


you crack me up...
RE: RE: What the hell is this message board then if not for that?  
dep026 : 10/5/2018 10:34 am : link
In comment 14107185 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14107158 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't agree that he won't throw it down field because he's scared.

I think it's what Shurmur is coaching.



Yes...lets blame Shurmur.


There is a lot of blame to go around which includes the HC and QB.
RE: What I don't understand....  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:35 am : link
In comment 14107181 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Is when the Saints were clearly in zone coverage and taking away everything past 15 yards, why we didn't run the ball down their throat, or at least try to.

We also missed Engram last week, up the seam.


Generally or specifically, the Giants suck at offense. The Oline creates many problems of course...no question. But even when things are blocked up front, Eli and our playmakers make critical mistakes too when given the opportunity. And when they don't, sometimes Shurmur is not adapting to what the defense is doing.

they stink although have 12 games to improve...
RE: The one thing I dont get it  
Keith : 10/5/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 14107177 dep026 said:
Quote:
Even I can blame Eli for his faults this year.... HE was too reactionary in the Saints game, he missed some throws against JAX. Dallas game I put more on the OL.

But it just seems now its all Eli or all someone else. This is an Eli problem. Its a Shurmur problem. Its an OL problem. And some can be attest to injuries (no EE last week), no reliable deep threat outside OBJ (Russell Shepard, really?).

Our problems wont be solved by changing one player or one coach or a few OL. We need EVERYTHING to change for the better.


Agreed. We have too many problems that can't be fixed. That's why most logical people were ready to rebuild this offseason as opposed to trying to patchwork the deficiancies to appease all the giants fans that cried like little babies when Eli was benched. We had a chance and we passed. Instead we chose to try and go for it with a declining 37 year old that is playing scared and can't even navigate a pocket.
Logical gets used in funny ways around here.  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:46 am : link
.
Unfortunately emotion  
Keith : 10/5/2018 10:49 am : link
gets used just a little more. Equally, I would hope that my team would use logic instead of emotion when making key decisions, but that's not the case here.
RE: this seems to be  
ron mexico : 10/5/2018 10:51 am : link
In comment 14107111 ron mexico said:
Quote:
what you are talking about Link - ( New Window )


BTW who is he sitting with?
RE: Unfortunately emotion  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:54 am : link
In comment 14107207 Keith said:
Quote:
gets used just a little more. Equally, I would hope that my team would use logic instead of emotion when making key decisions, but that's not the case here.


Don't forget, they used the tape from last year's Philly game too...
QB guru  
BBelle21 : 10/5/2018 12:31 pm : link
Mark Schofield talks in depth about what Britt in Va brings up. Its an interesting listen about the schematic role in Elis checkdowns


Locked on Giants- Eli Mannings checkdowns - ( New Window )
Its not just the offense philosophy  
BillT : 10/12/2018 8:42 am : link
Its the offensive philosophy plus an OL that can neither run block or pass block.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner