Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Reading between the lines, the lack of deep passing....

Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 8:59 am
is by design. You can get on Eli all you want, but both his and Shurmer's statements to the press back it up. They are being risk averse by not taking chances. Eli is being coached not to push the ball downfield if the defense isn't giving him the look.

Shurmer:

Quote:
A: Again, I mentioned it yesterday, we took some shots and they were playing in two-shell, so the ball gets checked down. Thatís one reason for it.

A: Yeah, we called them. There were deep routes called that we couldnít get the ball downfield, so you check it down. Then you move on.

A: You call plays to be aggressive. If theyíre there, you take your shots. Thatís how you dictate. And if theyíre not there, you check them down, and then the backs catch the ball and run with it. Youíre talking about seven-eight yard gains, which is fine, so thatís how you dictate. Then you make them defend those. Thatís how you dictate, and then when you choose to run the ball, you make yardage.


Eli:

Quote:
Q: If the defense is taking away those deep routes, is it worth it at all to take a shot anyway, even though the coverage isnít ideal for that?

A: That usually leads to bad plays. Thereís ways to get explosive plays without throwing it deep. Itís not like they all have to be go-routes or post-routes. Hitting guys on the move when they do play man, in zones you can still hit plays. In breaking routes and buying time. You can still hit explosive plays when teams are trying to take away the deep shots.


This is all being coached.

Look at Case Keenum's numbers last year:

68% completion percentage. 3500 yards, 22 TD's, only 7 INT's.

This is the pace Eli is on, only Eli is not Case Keenum. Shurmer needs to open it up, IMO.
I suggest you watch  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 10/2/2018 9:04 am : link
the all 22 film breakdown, just 1 thread below.

He has time and open guys, but he is just checking down.
I don't understand  
eugibs : 10/2/2018 9:07 am : link
So, the coaches don't want to make big plays? That's the issue here? Why wouldn't the coaches want to make big plays?
From Jordan Raanan  
jlukes : 10/2/2018 9:07 am : link

Just finished watching the All-22 of the first half from Sunday. Eli Manning wasn't touched once. Took ZERO QB hits. I counted 1 pressure. Using the O-line excuse this week is lazy. This is his pocket on the second missed throw of the first half to Odell Beckham Jr.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: From Jordan Raanan  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 9:09 am : link
In comment 14102988 jlukes said:
Quote:

Just finished watching the All-22 of the first half from Sunday. Eli Manning wasn't touched once. Took ZERO QB hits. I counted 1 pressure. Using the O-line excuse this week is lazy. This is his pocket on the second missed throw of the first half to Odell Beckham Jr. Link - ( New Window )


Then the replays Romo saw and what the national audience showed is wrong as well. There were a few times it showed Eli getting up after a throw.
I think itís a combination of things  
mattlawson : 10/2/2018 9:09 am : link
Which is usually the case isnít it? Just off the top of my head.

Where Eli is in his career
Where the line is
What the coach would prefer
What the defense is dictating
Eliís preference on any given play
What the team concept is long term
What the game plan is short term
RE: I don't understand  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/2/2018 9:10 am : link
In comment 14102987 eugibs said:
Quote:
So, the coaches don't want to make big plays? That's the issue here? Why wouldn't the coaches want to make big plays?


Of course they do. I think they're trying ti press the point that there are ways of accomplishing that without low percentage throws into zone coverage.

And he's right. A checkdown to Barkley is a short throw, and he's talented enough to take it 40 yards any time he touches it.
I think you are not reading between the lines  
pjcas18 : 10/2/2018 9:10 am : link
but reading what you want to read.

Shurmur says multiple times they're calling deep plays, but they aren't there or they couldn't get the ball downfield. Eli isn't being coached to check down, he's being coached to check down IF the deep pass isn't an option (on those plays).

I don't know of any offense that suggests passing a ball deep if the play isn't there. that seems like even in a vertical offense is a smart thing to do. Tiki Barber was catching 60 - 70 passes a year in the Giants vertical offense.

.  
Danny Kanell : 10/2/2018 9:16 am : link
Quote:
I think you are not reading between the lines
pjcas18 : 9:10 am : link : reply
but reading what you want to read.


Plus a million
Latimer was starting to get some deep balls so his absense hurt.  
Ivan15 : 10/2/2018 9:17 am : link
Shurmurís comments suggest that they are very risk averse.

If they continue with this offensive scheme which Shurmur likes, they need to figure out how to get Beckham and Barkley the ball with some room to run. I donít know why that should be so hard against a Cover 2 deep zone.
Shurmur knows Eli can't throw it deep anymore with accuracy,  
Brown Recluse : 10/2/2018 9:17 am : link
and he's protecting him by telling him to check down if the deep pass isn't there wide open.

Kidding. Its ludicrous to assume such a thing.

Maybe.
Case Keenum interviewed after their win over Seattle....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 9:24 am : link
a couple weeks ago in Denver:

Quote:
"We have some incredible playmakers on this team. If anything, I need to know this week that a shot called isn't necessarily a shot taken," explained Keenum on balancing taking care of the ball with taking risks. "I can take the check down if I need to and let my guys make plays."


Sound familiar? - ( New Window )
RE: From Jordan Raanan  
giants#1 : 10/2/2018 9:27 am : link
In comment 14102988 jlukes said:
Quote:

Just finished watching the All-22 of the first half from Sunday. Eli Manning wasn't touched once. Took ZERO QB hits. I counted 1 pressure. Using the O-line excuse this week is lazy. This is his pocket on the second missed throw of the first half to Odell Beckham Jr. Link - ( New Window )


I don't recall the back half of that play, but I count 8 blockers vs 4 defenders, so maybe the 7 other defenders had blanket coverage on the 2 WRs?
Keenum's Concepts in Minny:  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 9:30 am : link
Quote:
Principles
A few overarching principles to keep in mind about the offense Case Keenum ran last year in Minnesota:

Staying on schedule is huge

Minnesotaís offense was all predicated on staying on schedule. They werenít built to come from behind or convert a lot of 3rd and longs (few teams are built for this). Their run/pass split was one of the most balanced in the league last year as they were near 50% of runs and passes.

Getting small chunks of yards that set up 2nd or 3rd and manageable kept them from getting behind the sticks early in drives.

Low risk plays led to low turnovers

Low risk doesnít necessarily mean no big plays, as Keenum still had his fair share of big plays. However, the bread and butter of the offense was a short/intermediate passing game that were inherently lower risk passes.

This approach allowed Keenum to finish top 5 in interception rate, along with Drew Brees and Tom Brady (who employ similar offensive strategies).

Get the ball to players in space

Weíll dig into it more in a later post, but Case Keenum and the Minnesota offense was one of the best in the league at generating YAC for the offense. They did this by scheming players into space where they could go make a play.


Weíll keep these in mind as we go through the various concepts each week.

With that, letís dive in!

Concepts
As the title indicated, the meat of this will be digging into two concepts Minnesota and Keenum ran with a lot of success last year.


Great breakdown with play diagrams of the concepts Keenum ran in Minny last year - ( New Window )
RE: I think you are not reading between the lines  
mdc1 : 10/2/2018 9:30 am : link
In comment 14102994 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
but reading what you want to read.

Shurmur says multiple times they're calling deep plays, but they aren't there or they couldn't get the ball downfield. Eli isn't being coached to check down, he's being coached to check down IF the deep pass isn't an option (on those plays).

I don't know of any offense that suggests passing a ball deep if the play isn't there. that seems like even in a vertical offense is a smart thing to do. Tiki Barber was catching 60 - 70 passes a year in the Giants vertical offense.


Do you think we will see checkdowns this Sunday? I doubt it and there won't be many, even it introduces Eli accuracy and turnover risk.

Sunlight exposes issues and the criticism will get louder and louder and become unacceptable regardless of how much blame you place on the oline. At some point you cant keep pointing at the monster under the bed and you have to do something about this issue and not go in a shell.

RE: I think you are not reading between the lines  
giants#1 : 10/2/2018 9:30 am : link
In comment 14102994 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
but reading what you want to read.

Shurmur says multiple times they're calling deep plays, but they aren't there or they couldn't get the ball downfield. Eli isn't being coached to check down, he's being coached to check down IF the deep pass isn't an option (on those plays).

I don't know of any offense that suggests passing a ball deep if the play isn't there. that seems like even in a vertical offense is a smart thing to do. Tiki Barber was catching 60 - 70 passes a year in the Giants vertical offense.


I agree with this. Shurmur's choosing his words wisely and conveniently omitting the reason(s) why they can't get it downfield.

Eli bashers will blame him (exclusively), Eli defenders will blame everyone else (see dep on the All-22 thread), but in reality it's likely a combo of things.
That article I just posted above is from a Denver site.  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 9:31 am : link
Completely unbiased.

You read what you want to from it. To me, sounds really familiar.
Set aside the Eli bullsh-t and read what they were doing last year in  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 9:33 am : link
Minny.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 10/2/2018 9:45 am : link
I don't think any offensive system dictates checking down when guys are open further down the field.

Eli was very bad on Sunday. He was very good the previous Sunday. Eli's YPA was ~1.2 yards lower than Keenum's was last year with a higher completion percentage.
RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 9:46 am : link
In comment 14103063 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I don't think any offensive system dictates checking down when guys are open further down the field.

Eli was very bad on Sunday. He was very good the previous Sunday. Eli's YPA was ~1.2 yards lower than Keenum's was last year with a higher completion percentage.


We're also only 4 games into the season.
This is a new system. Eli is likely running the system to a t.....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 9:47 am : link
That's what players have to do to learn it.

Perhaps when he's more comfortable in it, it will open up some.
The Broncos were killing the Chiefs cover 2 last night  
arniefez : 10/2/2018 9:50 am : link
It was fun to watch. That game was more entertaining than the last 20 Giant games combined.
Sure seemed  
pjcas18 : 10/2/2018 9:50 am : link
like Odell Beckham was hoping for a different outcome on some of those plays. Do Beckham and Eli have the same playbook?
RE: Latimer was starting to get some deep balls so his absense hurt.  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/2/2018 9:51 am : link
In comment 14103012 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
Shurmurís comments suggest that they are very risk averse.

If they continue with this offensive scheme which Shurmur likes, they need to figure out how to get Beckham and Barkley the ball with some room to run. I donít know why that should be so hard against a Cover 2 deep zone.

A pocket passer needs a big physical target like Lattimer, but one that can separate. Well at least DG tried with what was available.

Barkley on a wheel route should kill a soft man cover 2, haven't seen that all year.
RE: RE: ...  
BrettNYG10 : 10/2/2018 9:51 am : link
In comment 14103066 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103063 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I don't think any offensive system dictates checking down when guys are open further down the field.

Eli was very bad on Sunday. He was very good the previous Sunday. Eli's YPA was ~1.2 yards lower than Keenum's was last year with a higher completion percentage.



We're also only 4 games into the season.


That's irrelevant when comparing his play from one week to another. He did all the things he needed to week three. It was an excellent game. One I was hoping he'd build off of.

And then he had an awful game Sunday.
I was responding to this:  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 9:53 am : link
Quote:
Eli's YPA was ~1.2 yards lower than Keenum's was last year with a higher completion percentage.


So mentioning that Eli had only played 4 games in the system as compared to Keenum's 15 actually was relevant.
RE: This is a new system. Eli is likely running the system to a t.....  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 9:53 am : link
In comment 14103071 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
That's what players have to do to learn it.

Perhaps when he's more comfortable in it, it will open up some.


Eli has been through different coordinators before, how long before he gets comfortable? The excuses for this guy on this site are ridiculous. Eli needs to play better.
RE: RE: This is a new system. Eli is likely running the system to a t.....  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 9:54 am : link
In comment 14103083 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
Eli needs to play better.


Not one person has said differently.
Is there ever an actual football discussion here, anymore?  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 9:54 am : link
Or just a bunch of hyperbole stated as fact?

That breakdown on that Denver Broncos site is a really good breakdown of what Shurmer was running last year in Minny, and what Keenum was asked to do within that system.
I think the suggestion above of Latimer being out  
bradshaw44 : 10/2/2018 9:56 am : link
hurting the down field shots may hold some water. It will be interesting to see what happens when he's back in the line-up.
RE: I was responding to this:  
BrettNYG10 : 10/2/2018 9:57 am : link
In comment 14103082 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


Eli's YPA was ~1.2 yards lower than Keenum's was last year with a higher completion percentage.



So mentioning that Eli had only played 4 games in the system as compared to Keenum's 15 actually was relevant.


Blaming the system for Eli checking down all day Sunday does make it irrelevant. A low YPA is not something embedded in Shurmur's system. Keenum's first four games last year YPA was: 4.51, 11.18, 7.3, 6.67. 7.4 average.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 9:59 am : link
Again, the pieces around him keep changing and the offense continues to not produce.

Who is the constant?

At some point you're going to have concede that Eli might actually be a part of this problem when you watch Mayfield and the Browns drop 40+, Mitch Trubisky throw 6 TD passes in a game (5 in a half) and guys like Patrick Mahomes breaking records within 3 games of their careers.

How many more times do we need to shuffle coaches, linemen, and skill players before we finally arrive at this conclusion?
RE: RE: I was responding to this:  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 10:05 am : link
In comment 14103092 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103082 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Quote:


Eli's YPA was ~1.2 yards lower than Keenum's was last year with a higher completion percentage.



So mentioning that Eli had only played 4 games in the system as compared to Keenum's 15 actually was relevant.



Blaming the system for Eli checking down all day Sunday does make it irrelevant. A low YPA is not something embedded in Shurmur's system. Keenum's first four games last year YPA was: 4.51, 11.18, 7.3, 6.67. 7.4 average.


I'm not going to get in a dumb stats comparison with you that doesn't really mean much, but he also threw for only like 150 yards in two of those games. And only had what one would consider a good game in one of the four. 369 yards and 3 TD's. Through 4 games, he also had 4 TD's.
And he still had a higher YPA than Eli's performance Sunday.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/2/2018 10:06 am : link
You're literally proving my point for me.
RE: .  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 10:06 am : link
In comment 14103097 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Again, the pieces around him keep changing and the offense continues to not produce.

Who is the constant?

At some point you're going to have concede that Eli might actually be a part of this problem when you watch Mayfield and the Browns drop 40+, Mitch Trubisky throw 6 TD passes in a game (5 in a half) and guys like Patrick Mahomes breaking records within 3 games of their careers.

How many more times do we need to shuffle coaches, linemen, and skill players before we finally arrive at this conclusion?


I think the offense will get better as the year goes on, and the players get more comfortable running it. We shall see.

There are similarities to Minnesota, and there should be. The point is to try and understand what they're running and what it looks like. We're seeing it for the first time, but if you look at Minnesota last year, we should understand that this is the offense.
Some of you should at least try and be more consistent.  
Brown Recluse : 10/2/2018 10:07 am : link
You were all over Eli when they were losing...then they won last week and you were back on the bandwagon...now you're back to saying he's done.

Make up your mind :)
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 10:12 am : link
We've been in "wait and see" mode for a long time now. We're not seeing anything change.

I don't think the offense we're running is the problem. Minnesota was 13th in the NFL last year in 20+ yard pass plays.

Adam Theilen averaged 14 YPR last year, and Stefon Diggs was over 13. Beckham is at a career low 10.7 YPR right now.
RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 10:12 am : link
In comment 14103097 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Again, the pieces around him keep changing and the offense continues to not produce.

Who is the constant?



Eli is definitely part of the problem. What else is constant? An underperforming OL. A non existing running game.

Changing players doesnt mean success. We are going to move on from Eli probably next year. What if the next QB struggles as well. Whats the excuse going to be.

The main problem is the OL. When you cant run the ball effectively - you are going to have huge offensive problems.
RE: .  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 10:13 am : link
In comment 14103114 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We've been in "wait and see" mode for a long time now. We're not seeing anything change.

I don't think the offense we're running is the problem. Minnesota was 13th in the NFL last year in 20+ yard pass plays.

Adam Theilen averaged 14 YPR last year, and Stefon Diggs was over 13. Beckham is at a career low 10.7 YPR right now.


And that can change. You're comparing 16 games to 4.
The OL wasn't that bad Sunday.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/2/2018 10:15 am : link
I don't know if I'd classify it as good, but it wasn't bad.

Saquon average 4.4 YPC. I wouldn't call the running game non-existent (I just don't think it was used enough on Sunday).

Prime Eli didn't need everything to be good for him to perform.
RE: Some of you should at least try and be more consistent.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 10:16 am : link
In comment 14103111 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
You were all over Eli when they were losing...then they won last week and you were back on the bandwagon...now you're back to saying he's done.

Make up your mind :)


This is what Eli is, though. It's what he's always been - except now the highs and good performances aren't quite as great as they used to be.

Eli isn't the only issue here. I just think to keep bending over backwards looking for ways to make it everyone else's fault but his is starting to get silly.

I'm sure you can still win games with him if you have a top-flight OL. We don't have that. We're not winning games, and we're not scoring points.

So, how much longer do we want to commit to giving him "ideal" conditions to allow that to happen?

Basically - the question is this..

How much more are you willing to commit to the roster and for how much longer are you willing to do it?

We've spent money on offensive linemen, 3 first round picks and a 2nd rd pick on the skill players. We're still not scoring points.

Are we just going to keep firing coaches?

The Giants offense should be better than this. Full stop. We shouldn't need to wait half a season to score 30 points when much less experienced players and teams are doing it already.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 10:18 am : link
You guys keep blaming the offensive line.

If this isn't good enough, then you're not watching other football games. This is basically what QB's are working with now.

I'm not claiming ours is good - but you're basically asking the Giants to pour more resources into it to what end? How many more years should we be trying to make this OL good enough for Eli?

It's a losing proposition.
Can we get something straight?  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 10:19 am : link
This isn't an excuse for Eli, okay? Like I said, set aside that bullsh-t and let's talk about football.

Read Shurmer's comments. Read Eli's comments. Read Keenum's comments.

Then, read that article about the concepts that made Keenum successful in Minny last year, and what he was coached/asked to do.

Then think about what we do, have been doing, and what our offense looks like this year.

It's four games in. Perhaps it will open up and things will start happening like they did in Minny last year.
When a defense rushes 4 and drops 7, an offense  
PatersonPlank : 10/2/2018 10:19 am : link
needs to run the ball down their throat OR pass protect for 5+ seconds until a WR gets time to get open. An offense should be able to do either when only 4 rush, we can do neither.

Its a broken record, its been happening for over a year now. Until we can do 1 or the other, then this will continue.
And I'm not talking about committing anything...  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 10:20 am : link
I'm talking about right now. I'm talking about winning THIS week.

What's done is done for the season and whatever happens next offseason is then. This is about NOW.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 10:20 am : link
In comment 14103116 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103114 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


We've been in "wait and see" mode for a long time now. We're not seeing anything change.

I don't think the offense we're running is the problem. Minnesota was 13th in the NFL last year in 20+ yard pass plays.

Adam Theilen averaged 14 YPR last year, and Stefon Diggs was over 13. Beckham is at a career low 10.7 YPR right now.



And that can change. You're comparing 16 games to 4.


Minnesota broke 30 points in game 3 last year. They didn't even need 4 games.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 10:21 am : link
Cmon, Britt - you have an agenda here just like you always do.

To defend Eli Manning.

At least just be honest about it. It gets hard to take seriously when you pretend that's not what you're doing here.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/2/2018 10:21 am : link
arc, I couldn't agree more. I think the excuse making for Eli ignores and underrates how good he used to be. He consistently elevated guys and thrived even when the OLs were awful. I think this board forgets how bad the 2011 line was. It was one of the worst in the league the first 14 games of the year. He was getting killed all year long.

It's disappointing that those performances are rare. I was very hopeful that the Texans performance was a sign of things to come. Maybe they do get a bit better. But I don't see Eli leading an elite offense anymore.
Alright... it's a big whatever then, I guess.  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 10:22 am : link
.
RE: RE: RE: I was responding to this:  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/2/2018 10:25 am : link
In comment 14103103 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103092 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 14103082 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Quote:


Eli's YPA was ~1.2 yards lower than Keenum's was last year with a higher completion percentage.



So mentioning that Eli had only played 4 games in the system as compared to Keenum's 15 actually was relevant.



Blaming the system for Eli checking down all day Sunday does make it irrelevant. A low YPA is not something embedded in Shurmur's system. Keenum's first four games last year YPA was: 4.51, 11.18, 7.3, 6.67. 7.4 average.



I'm not going to get in a dumb stats comparison with you that doesn't really mean much, but he also threw for only like 150 yards in two of those games. And only had what one would consider a good game in one of the four. 369 yards and 3 TD's. Through 4 games, he also had 4 TD's.

Darnold cultists whip themselves up into a delirious ecstatic frenzy with visions of Canton lumpy head busts whenever their God-Quaterback throws for less than 200 yards and a pick 6 against Matt Patricia.
Be careful, I think you're missing part of the nuance  
JonC : 10/2/2018 10:25 am : link
I think Shurmur is choosing his words more carefully on Monday, after being a bit more revealing in his post-game comments.

While the concepts and Keenum comparisons carry some validity, it seems Eli's choosing the check downs more than preferred. He was trying to quickly get rid of the ball vs the Saints, yet again this unit collectively failed to defeat simple Cover 2 looks.

The OL lack of talent is part of the problem, youth at the skill positions and the QB are part of the problem. Can they reverse the tide remains to be seen.

RE: ....  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 10:27 am : link
In comment 14103135 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
arc, I couldn't agree more. I think the excuse making for Eli ignores and underrates how good he used to be. He consistently elevated guys and thrived even when the OLs were awful. I think this board forgets how bad the 2011 line was. It was one of the worst in the league the first 14 games of the year. He was getting killed all year long.

It's disappointing that those performances are rare. I was very hopeful that the Texans performance was a sign of things to come. Maybe they do get a bit better. But I don't see Eli leading an elite offense anymore.


I was too. I thought the Texans game was a good stepping stone and could have been a sign of a turnaround.

Turns out, Houston might just have a really, really crappy defense.

I'm not pretending I have all the answers here. I just think at some point we have to consider that perhaps we're not going to be able to form the OL good enough for this particular QB in time to make another run with him.

It feels like we're swimming against the current.
RE: The OL wasn't that bad Sunday.  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 10:29 am : link
In comment 14103121 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I don't know if I'd classify it as good, but it wasn't bad.

Saquon average 4.4 YPC. I wouldn't call the running game non-existent (I just don't think it was used enough on Sunday).

Prime Eli didn't need everything to be good for him to perform.


Take away his long run he had 9 carries for 18 yards. One run skewed the numbers just like it did agaisnt JAX.

The OL is not acceptable no matter who the QB is.
not to pile on  
ron mexico : 10/2/2018 10:29 am : link
but does it seem like it takes forever for the ball to get to the RB on swing routes? Seems like SB is usually waiting for the ball and the defenders have the opportunity to close in
RE: RE: The OL wasn't that bad Sunday.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/2/2018 10:33 am : link
In comment 14103156 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103121 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I don't know if I'd classify it as good, but it wasn't bad.

Saquon average 4.4 YPC. I wouldn't call the running game non-existent (I just don't think it was used enough on Sunday).

Prime Eli didn't need everything to be good for him to perform.



Take away his long run he had 9 carries for 18 yards. One run skewed the numbers just like it did agaisnt JAX.

The OL is not acceptable no matter who the QB is.


I think you have unrealistic expectations for the OL.
RE: When a defense rushes 4 and drops 7, an offense  
Eman11 : 10/2/2018 10:34 am : link
In comment 14103128 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
needs to run the ball down their throat OR pass protect for 5+ seconds until a WR gets time to get open. An offense should be able to do either when only 4 rush, we can do neither.

Its a broken record, its been happening for over a year now. Until we can do 1 or the other, then this will continue.


Yeah that's what I see as well. Get the running game going and it'll open up the passing game more. I thought that was a main part of the thinking when drafting Barkley.

IMO Barkley only getting a handful of rushing attempts in the second half after his first run played right into the Saints hands.

I say make a commitment to running and getting Saquon going. Not only will it help the passing game but he energizes the whole team, and home crowd as well.
RE: RE: RE: The OL wasn't that bad Sunday.  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 10:34 am : link
In comment 14103165 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:

I think you have unrealistic expectations for the OL.


We have been the worst rushing team in football for 6 years. Asking for a sustainable running game shouldnt be this hard.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The OL wasn't that bad Sunday.  
Eman11 : 10/2/2018 10:38 am : link
In comment 14103171 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103165 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:



I think you have unrealistic expectations for the OL.



We have been the worst rushing team in football for 6 years. Asking for a sustainable running game shouldnt be this hard.


No it shouldn't.

Now that we have a dynamic back who can make things happen, they need to feed him the ball and commit to getting a running game going.

His skills should make up for some of the lines deficiencies IMO.
I just want to jump in...  
bw in dc : 10/2/2018 10:40 am : link
and commend arc on a job well done here.

Nailed a ton of salient points, and not based on some "hyperbolic" intention.
For as great as Barkley is  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 10:40 am : link
and being touched by the hand of god.... sorry I couldnt resist...

He cant magically makes 6 defenders miss him at the LOS. He will make 1-2. But he needs room to operate as well. He is averaging 2.8 YPC outside two long runs where he did everything himself. 2.8!!!!!

RE: From Jordan Raanan  
montanagiant : 10/2/2018 10:43 am : link
In comment 14102988 jlukes said:
Quote:

Just finished watching the All-22 of the first half from Sunday. Eli Manning wasn't touched once. Took ZERO QB hits. I counted 1 pressure. Using the O-line excuse this week is lazy. This is his pocket on the second missed throw of the first half to Odell Beckham Jr. Link - ( New Window )

I don't know what game Raanan watched but the whole 2nd half he was getting pressured right up the middle
A tidbit to keep in mind is OB's reactions during the game  
JonC : 10/2/2018 10:47 am : link
He was fighting to keep himself composed, but he was clearly growing frustrated after plays and it wasn't because he was covered, held, etc. He was OPEN and often and Eli wasn't throwing it to him.
RE: Some of you should at least try and be more consistent.  
GeofromNJ : 10/2/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 14103111 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
You were all over Eli when they were losing...then they won last week and you were back on the bandwagon...now you're back to saying he's done.

Make up your mind :)

Individual posters do not change their minds. Posters who say that Eli is done are not the same posters who applaud him when the Giants win or when he does well. They are different posters.
RE: For as great as Barkley is  
Eman11 : 10/2/2018 10:53 am : link
In comment 14103186 dep026 said:
Quote:
and being touched by the hand of god.... sorry I couldnt resist...

He cant magically makes 6 defenders miss him at the LOS. He will make 1-2. But he needs room to operate as well. He is averaging 2.8 YPC outside two long runs where he did everything himself. 2.8!!!!!


No he can't but posters are saying D's are dropping seven into coverage. If that's the case, they should be running more. Get a hat on a hat and let Saquon find a crease.

I see it as them not committing to running. It looks to me like they just throw a few in to keep a D honest when they should be making D's have to commit and focus on stopping a running game.

Maybe it's just how I'm seeing it but it doesn't appear to me the Giants are committed enough both mentally and physically to the run game. I'd love for them to just say we're going to run it down their throats this drive, and see if the OLine feeds off that.

I know they're not the most talented line but maybe if they felt running was as important as pass blocking they would be better at it. When the majority of a half is spent passing when a game isn't out of hand, it seems to me that's showing where the priorities of the coaching is.
Good post  
TMS : 10/2/2018 10:54 am : link
and explains a lot of things with this offense. We are not able to use our longer pass game because the OC/HC Shurmur thinks it is too high risk. That is one of ELI's strengths and how we won in the past. Our coaching staff better figure this out fast, or we are done this season with this terrible low yield offensives scheme. Our defense is at least average and getting better every game. MO.
RE: A tidbit to keep in mind is OB's reactions during the game  
bw in dc : 10/2/2018 10:55 am : link
In comment 14103194 JonC said:
Quote:
He was fighting to keep himself composed, but he was clearly growing frustrated after plays and it wasn't because he was covered, held, etc. He was OPEN and often and Eli wasn't throwing it to him.


This is going to be unbelievable coming from my keyboard, because I have killed OBJ for his antics, but he is 100% right to be frustrated. For that guy with that skill set not have a TD a quarter of the way through the season is absolutely insane.

Let's be honest, right now the contract we are paying OBJ is a complete waste of money. And it's absolutely not him.
RE: Be careful, I think you're missing part of the nuance  
jlukes : 10/2/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 14103147 JonC said:
Quote:
I think Shurmur is choosing his words more carefully on Monday, after being a bit more revealing in his post-game comments.

While the concepts and Keenum comparisons carry some validity, it seems Eli's choosing the check downs more than preferred. He was trying to quickly get rid of the ball vs the Saints, yet again this unit collectively failed to defeat simple Cover 2 looks.

The OL lack of talent is part of the problem, youth at the skill positions and the QB are part of the problem. Can they reverse the tide remains to be seen.


Bingo. Shurmur is the anti McAdoo. McAdoo would be throwing Eli under the bus. Shurmur is doing a much better job of managing the situation
RE: RE: Be careful, I think you're missing part of the nuance  
bw in dc : 10/2/2018 11:02 am : link
In comment 14103214 jlukes said:
Quote:


Bingo. Shurmur is the anti McAdoo. McAdoo would be throwing Eli under the bus. Shurmur is doing a much better job of managing the situation


I know this thread is about Eli and the offense, but the team is 1-3 and can't get out of its own way. I don't give a flying f-ck how well Shurmur is managing the press because, more importantly, it's very difficult right now to differentiate his game day decisions from McAdoo's.
RE: RE: RE: Be careful, I think you're missing part of the nuance  
jlukes : 10/2/2018 11:04 am : link
In comment 14103220 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14103214 jlukes said:


Quote:




Bingo. Shurmur is the anti McAdoo. McAdoo would be throwing Eli under the bus. Shurmur is doing a much better job of managing the situation



I know this thread is about Eli and the offense, but the team is 1-3 and can't get out of its own way. I don't give a flying f-ck how well Shurmur is managing the press because, more importantly, it's very difficult right now to differentiate his game day decisions from McAdoo's.


You might not care, but the players on the team sure as hell care. The players pretty much mutinied McAdoo last year because of how he repeatedly handled talking about players in the media. That absolutely has an impact on how the team plays on the field
Agree this is something coached in Shurmurís offense  
BBelle21 : 10/2/2018 11:05 am : link
And itís probably good coaching except that we fans are very restless. Shurmur and Eli will never say it to the press but here we have Syís game review where he wrote:

ďBeckham had a hard time getting behind the Saints secondary, or even close to it.Ē

I firmly believe Odell was not frustrated or angry at Eli, he was frustrated and angry with himself whether it be his cramping or the Saints defense successfully corralling him. Heís a perfectionist and a fierce competitor. But Shurmur and Eli are right to not force these throws to Odell no matter what nonsense Jordan Raanan wants to tweet. Itís also admirable that Shurmur and Eli REFUSE to throw anyone under the bus.

Eli needs to play better but so does Odell and everyone else.

You can't really throw deep  
ajr2456 : 10/2/2018 11:07 am : link
When your accuracy counting for drops on deep passes is 23%...
I should have posted this all together to begin with....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:09 am : link
but I was uncovering it as I was going. Reading all of this together might help to make the picture clearer. Just posting them to unify them:

Shurmur:

Quote:
A: Again, I mentioned it yesterday, we took some shots and they were playing in two-shell, so the ball gets checked down. Thatís one reason for it.

A: Yeah, we called them. There were deep routes called that we couldnít get the ball downfield, so you check it down. Then you move on.

A: You call plays to be aggressive. If theyíre there, you take your shots. Thatís how you dictate. And if theyíre not there, you check them down, and then the backs catch the ball and run with it. Youíre talking about seven-eight yard gains, which is fine, so thatís how you dictate. Then you make them defend those. Thatís how you dictate, and then when you choose to run the ball, you make yardage.


Eli:

Quote:
Q: If the defense is taking away those deep routes, is it worth it at all to take a shot anyway, even though the coverage isnít ideal for that?

A: That usually leads to bad plays. Thereís ways to get explosive plays without throwing it deep. Itís not like they all have to be go-routes or post-routes. Hitting guys on the move when they do play man, in zones you can still hit plays. In breaking routes and buying time. You can still hit explosive plays when teams are trying to take away the deep shots.


Keenum this year in Denver:

Quote:
"We have some incredible playmakers on this team. If anything, I need to know this week that a shot called isn't necessarily a shot taken," explained Keenum on balancing taking care of the ball with taking risks. "I can take the check down if I need to and let my guys make plays."


Keenums Stats in Minny last year:

68% completion percentage. 3500 yards, 22 TD's, only 7 INT's.

This is the pace Eli is on right now.

"Keenum's Koncepts" in Minny, from Mile High Report:

Quote:
Principles
A few overarching principles to keep in mind about the offense Case Keenum ran last year in Minnesota:

Staying on schedule is huge

Minnesotaís offense was all predicated on staying on schedule. They werenít built to come from behind or convert a lot of 3rd and longs (few teams are built for this). Their run/pass split was one of the most balanced in the league last year as they were near 50% of runs and passes.

Getting small chunks of yards that set up 2nd or 3rd and manageable kept them from getting behind the sticks early in drives.

Low risk plays led to low turnovers

Low risk doesnít necessarily mean no big plays, as Keenum still had his fair share of big plays. However, the bread and butter of the offense was a short/intermediate passing game that were inherently lower risk passes.

This approach allowed Keenum to finish top 5 in interception rate, along with Drew Brees and Tom Brady (who employ similar offensive strategies).

Get the ball to players in space

Weíll dig into it more in a later post, but Case Keenum and the Minnesota offense was one of the best in the league at generating YAC for the offense. They did this by scheming players into space where they could go make a play.

Weíll keep these in mind as we go through the various concepts each week.

With that, letís dive in!

Concepts
As the title indicated, the meat of this will be digging into two concepts Minnesota and Keenum ran with a lot of success last year.


Keenum's Koncepts 7/18/18 - ( New Window )
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 11:14 am : link
The 2017 Vikings were 10th in points and 11th in yards.

The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.

We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....
Jordan Raanan's evidence of a clean pocket:  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:16 am : link


So it takes us 8 guys to block 4 defenders.

Basically we had 2 WR's out on routes verses seven guys in coverage.
RE: .  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:17 am : link
In comment 14103248 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The 2017 Vikings were 10th in points and 11th in yards.

The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.

We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....


That's not the point. I'm using it to try and paint a picture of what the offense was designed to do and his job within it.
RE: Jordan Raanan's evidence of a clean pocket:  
jlukes : 10/2/2018 11:18 am : link
In comment 14103254 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


So it takes us 8 guys to block 4 defenders.

Basically we had 2 WR's out on routes verses seven guys in coverage.


C'mon Britt - tell the whole story.

Sure, we only had 2 WRs out on routes, but OBJ STILL got wide open.

And Eli missed him
RE: RE: .  
ajr2456 : 10/2/2018 11:18 am : link
In comment 14103257 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103248 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The 2017 Vikings were 10th in points and 11th in yards.

The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.

We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....



That's not the point. I'm using it to try and paint a picture of what the offense was designed to do and his job within it.


Watch Vikings games from last and compare it to the Giants this year. It's not the same offense.
RE: RE: Jordan Raanan's evidence of a clean pocket:  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 11:21 am : link
In comment 14103261 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 14103254 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




So it takes us 8 guys to block 4 defenders.

Basically we had 2 WR's out on routes verses seven guys in coverage.



C'mon Britt - tell the whole story.

Sure, we only had 2 WRs out on routes, but OBJ STILL got wide open.

And Eli missed him


I didn't know if this was the same play or not, thank you for confirming.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 11:21 am : link
In comment 14103257 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103248 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The 2017 Vikings were 10th in points and 11th in yards.

The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.

We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....



That's not the point. I'm using it to try and paint a picture of what the offense was designed to do and his job within it.


I watched plenty of the Vikings offense last year. It was much better than this is. And Keenum didn't have any more weapons than Eli has. So, what's the issue? Why are we less productive?
RE: RE: Jordan Raanan's evidence of a clean pocket:  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:23 am : link
In comment 14103261 jlukes said:
Quote:
In comment 14103254 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




So it takes us 8 guys to block 4 defenders.

Basically we had 2 WR's out on routes verses seven guys in coverage.



C'mon Britt - tell the whole story.

Sure, we only had 2 WRs out on routes, but OBJ STILL got wide open.

And Eli missed him


He missed the throw. He didn't miss the read. And it wasn't some deep bomb, it was an intermediate route underneath the zone.

It was a really high throw. Why he missed it that bad, I don't know, but he was going OBJ's direction.

Missing the throw and not seeing the guy open or not making the read are different things being discussed here.

A lot of people's argument is that Eli is checking down because he's hearing footsteps and checking down instead. That wasn't a checkdown. He found OBJ, he just physically missed the throw.
Done  
Thegratefulhead : 10/2/2018 11:27 am : link
This offense does not play to Eli Strengths. He will not consistently succeed in it. Eli has not had many games in career like the one against the Texans. He just is not that consistently accurate. The Texans was a statistical outlier game. That is a fact. 36 games and counting under 30 points. He has great weapons that a defense must respect. I will even give you an out. It isn't his fault. He was fucked royally. They should have NEVER changed the entire offensive philosophy so late in his career. His GM failed him. He should have been allowed to retire with Coughlin. The last five years toasted him. Go put on the SF championship game, he was getting absolutely killed and he still made plays. If you watch that, and tell me he is even close to the same guy you need new glasses. It's over, it was over last year.
RE: RE: From Jordan Raanan  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/2/2018 11:27 am : link
In comment 14103190 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14102988 jlukes said:


Quote:



Just finished watching the All-22 of the first half from Sunday. Eli Manning wasn't touched once. Took ZERO QB hits. I counted 1 pressure. Using the O-line excuse this week is lazy. This is his pocket on the second missed throw of the first half to Odell Beckham Jr. Link - ( New Window )


I don't know what game Raanan watched but the whole 2nd half he was getting pressured right up the middle
Wind must have picked up at MetLife prior to the throw  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 11:27 am : link
.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 11:28 am : link
Let's re-frame the question for a second...

What do we feel Eli is doing well so far this year?

Not what he hasn't been able to do because of the OL.. or the new offense.... or some other reason.

What's he succeeding at thus far and what is happening that should give us faith things will turn?
RE: .  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 11:31 am : link
In comment 14103297 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Let's re-frame the question for a second...

What do we feel Eli is doing well so far this year?

Not what he hasn't been able to do because of the OL.. or the new offense.... or some other reason.

What's he succeeding at thus far and what is happening that should give us faith things will turn?


He's got close to a 75% comp percentage going for him...which is nice.
RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 11:31 am : link
In comment 14103297 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Let's re-frame the question for a second...

What do we feel Eli is doing well so far this year?

Not what he hasn't been able to do because of the OL.. or the new offense.... or some other reason.

What's he succeeding at thus far and what is happening that should give us faith things will turn?


Agree or not, he has not put the ball in the air for the defense to make a play. His misses have been out of the defenders chance. His only INT was on a tip ball.

I know some may not want to hear this..... but when Eli was throwing a ton of INTs - people bitched he was too much of a gun slinger and needed to check it down and be more careful with the ball.
But under a 7 YPA  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 11:32 am : link
which isn't.
He is completing the passes that he throws. He has a live arm....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:32 am : link
that can make the throws. He seems to be operating withing the offense with mostly what the defense is giving him.

Not so much faith as patience, and hope that the offense will evolve and gel. That as players get more comfortable in it, it will open up some.

That's it.
And all we can do is wait.  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:34 am : link
Some of you think he is cooked, toast, done. And that this year is over. You are entitled to that.

So you should expect a season of losses like Sunday.

I think they will evolve and get better. I'm hopeful that as the season progresses we'll have more performances like last Sunday.

Guess we'll all just have to wait and see.
Britt  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 11:34 am : link
You keep saying once he gets comfortable in the offense, what does that mean? By week 8 or 9, he will hit his stride?
I mean it's a brand new offense....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:35 am : link
that's only 4 games into the season, with limited offseason and practice time to install it.

I don't think we're seeing the finished product quite yet. But that's me.
Understood  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 11:37 am : link
But you keep referencing Keenum and if you look at his game log from last year, it didn't seem like it took him long to get comfortable.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 11:37 am : link
In comment 14103305 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103297 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Let's re-frame the question for a second...

What do we feel Eli is doing well so far this year?

Not what he hasn't been able to do because of the OL.. or the new offense.... or some other reason.

What's he succeeding at thus far and what is happening that should give us faith things will turn?



Agree or not, he has not put the ball in the air for the defense to make a play. His misses have been out of the defenders chance. His only INT was on a tip ball.

I know some may not want to hear this..... but when Eli was throwing a ton of INTs - people bitched he was too much of a gun slinger and needed to check it down and be more careful with the ball.


Of course he's not going to throw many INT's when he's barely ever throwing the ball past the sticks.

I don't really look at that as much of a positive right now.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 11:39 am : link
Eli has 4 TD passes in 4 games.

Mitch Trubisky, who "sucks" I was told, threw more than that in one half of football Sunday.
I can't believe that arguing FOR Eli Manning has come down  
jlukes : 10/2/2018 11:40 am : link
to comparing him Case Keenum.
RE: RE: RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 11:40 am : link
In comment 14103326 arcarsenal said:
Quote:



Of course he's not going to throw many INT's when he's barely ever throwing the ball past the sticks.

I don't really look at that as much of a positive right now.


I agree but this was a huge complaint in gilbrides offense. Too many wrong reads, wrong routes, INTs, etc...

Now we are seeing the other spectrum. Its not pretty.
RE: I can't believe that arguing FOR Eli Manning has come down  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 11:42 am : link
In comment 14103335 jlukes said:
Quote:
to comparing him Case Keenum.


It really is amazing.
RE: .  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/2/2018 11:43 am : link
In comment 14103248 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The 2017 Vikings were 10th in points and 11th in yards.

The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.

We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....

Maybe Denver will give Eli a huge contract next year.
RE: Done  
GiantGrit : 10/2/2018 11:45 am : link
In comment 14103293 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
This offense does not play to Eli Strengths. He will not consistently succeed in it. Eli has not had many games in career like the one against the Texans. He just is not that consistently accurate. The Texans was a statistical outlier game. That is a fact. 36 games and counting under 30 points. He has great weapons that a defense must respect. I will even give you an out. It isn't his fault. He was fucked royally. They should have NEVER changed the entire offensive philosophy so late in his career. His GM failed him. He should have been allowed to retire with Coughlin. The last five years toasted him. Go put on the SF championship game, he was getting absolutely killed and he still made plays. If you watch that, and tell me he is even close to the same guy you need new glasses. It's over, it was over last year.


So well said and others here are sharing some great points.

Eman, you are right. When was the last time the Giants came out and actually showed a first priority to run the ball down your throat? Denver last year? They don't do it. They must feel as if the offense has no chance of successfully running the ball consistently but they never try!

gratefulhead, also well stated. Eli was a gunslinger and they basically neutered him by forcing WCO onto him. His last great season was a mix of Gilbride and Mac's systems in 2015.

Even former players came out and said it - this franchise failed Eli on the latter half of his career in many ways. I think this is undeniable. But, we are in the here and now. Right now, i think he is cooked (again for many reasons out of his control unfortunately)

My question is, did they see this coming? Was there a plan to give him this year and then move on? Or did they really believe he has years left in him? As someone who still has faith in Gettleman, if it is the latter i would be really concerned.
RE: Understood  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:45 am : link
In comment 14103325 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
But you keep referencing Keenum and if you look at his game log from last year, it didn't seem like it took him long to get comfortable.


Keenum 1st 4 games last year:

78/124 62% 895 yards (7.2 y/a), 4 TD's, 0 INT's

Eli's 1st 4 games this year:

112/151 74% 1055 yards (6.98 y/a), 4 TD's, 1 INT

Again, this is not comparing the two athletes, it is comparing their performance in the system.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 11:46 am : link
In comment 14103336 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103326 arcarsenal said:


Quote:





Of course he's not going to throw many INT's when he's barely ever throwing the ball past the sticks.

I don't really look at that as much of a positive right now.



I agree but this was a huge complaint in gilbrides offense. Too many wrong reads, wrong routes, INTs, etc...

Now we are seeing the other spectrum. Its not pretty.


Well, the Giants shouldn't be building their offense based on what the fans complain about or how much they complain.

The goal is to put points on the board. We didn't do it in 2016. We didn't do it in 2017. And again, we're not doing it in 2018. Different coaches, different coordinators, different offensive linemen, different skill players.

Whether it was Coughlin's offense/influence or Eli no longer being the same QB, 2015 was the last time he played at a high level and in the NFL, that might as well have been a decade ago.

The excuse well for Eli is running dry.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 11:50 am : link
In comment 14103353 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

The excuse well for Eli is running dry.


I dont understand this statement. Its basically saying the reason is because of Eli. Eli plays a big part, which I am not seeing anyone say differently. But the offense is still 11 guys on the field with a handful of coaches.

I keep hearing changing the QB is the answer. Well changing the OL, skill guys, and coaches hasnt been the answer - what makes the QB the sole answer.

Cleveland has been searching how long for a QB? Futility doesnt end with change.

I fully expect this to be Eli's final year with the Giants, however I still see futility for awhile due to the fact we have glaring holes in many areas. I think Giant fans overvalue guys like SS and EE who are nice players but limited. We have a great WR and RB, a RB who is struggle mightily to develop a consistent run game.

I see very vanilla game plans. I dont see much adjusting.

There's a shitload of problem, inlcuing the QB. But the majority of people are looking at ONE position when we should be looking at fixing MULTIPLE ones.
RE: RE: Understood  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 11:50 am : link
In comment 14103351 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103325 figgy2989 said:


Quote:


But you keep referencing Keenum and if you look at his game log from last year, it didn't seem like it took him long to get comfortable.



Keenum 1st 4 games last year:

78/124 62% 895 yards (7.2 y/a), 4 TD's, 0 INT's

Eli's 1st 4 games this year:

112/151 74% 1055 yards (6.98 y/a), 4 TD's, 1 INT

Again, this is not comparing the two athletes, it is comparing their performance in the system.


Considering that Keenum was a journeyman QB who was thrown to the fire replacing Bradford, you would think that Eli's stats might be a bit better, no? Hell, Bradford looked good in the first two games before he got hurt in Minny.
RE: RE: RE: Understood  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:52 am : link
In comment 14103359 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103351 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14103325 figgy2989 said:


Quote:


But you keep referencing Keenum and if you look at his game log from last year, it didn't seem like it took him long to get comfortable.



Keenum 1st 4 games last year:

78/124 62% 895 yards (7.2 y/a), 4 TD's, 0 INT's

Eli's 1st 4 games this year:

112/151 74% 1055 yards (6.98 y/a), 4 TD's, 1 INT

Again, this is not comparing the two athletes, it is comparing their performance in the system.



Considering that Keenum was a journeyman QB who was thrown to the fire replacing Bradford, you would think that Eli's stats might be a bit better, no? Hell, Bradford looked good in the first two games before he got hurt in Minny.


I'm saying he is running the offense as it is designed, currently.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 11:54 am : link
In comment 14103358 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103353 arcarsenal said:


Quote:



The excuse well for Eli is running dry.



I dont understand this statement. Its basically saying the reason is because of Eli. Eli plays a big part, which I am not seeing anyone say differently. But the offense is still 11 guys on the field with a handful of coaches.

I keep hearing changing the QB is the answer. Well changing the OL, skill guys, and coaches hasnt been the answer - what makes the QB the sole answer.

Cleveland has been searching how long for a QB? Futility doesnt end with change.

I fully expect this to be Eli's final year with the Giants, however I still see futility for awhile due to the fact we have glaring holes in many areas. I think Giant fans overvalue guys like SS and EE who are nice players but limited. We have a great WR and RB, a RB who is struggle mightily to develop a consistent run game.

I see very vanilla game plans. I dont see much adjusting.

There's a shitload of problem, inlcuing the QB. But the majority of people are looking at ONE position when we should be looking at fixing MULTIPLE ones.


It's pretty easy to understand.

Everything around him has changed, yet the offense has continued to struggle. He's the constant.

How many more coaches and sets of players do we need to go through until we're willing to admit this?

All the posters who keep saying the OL isn't good enough - well, guess what, this is what most offensive lines look like in 2018. If you want a dominant, elite offensive line, we're going to need about 2-3 more years to get that on the field.

Then Eli is 40 years old.

Cleveland's offense looked INEPT with Taylor on the field. All everyone said was "wow that offensive line is awful!" Then they dropped 40+ with Mayfield in his first NFL start.

When was the last time the Giants dropped 40+ points?

This offense is not producing. It hasn't produced. Different systems, different coordinators, different skill players.

My argument isn't that Eli is the ONLY problem. My argument is that if we can't score points with him, we should perhaps start thinking about his successor sooner than later.
Keenum and Eli are two completely different QBs  
jcn56 : 10/2/2018 11:56 am : link
and yet it feels like we're running the same damn offense.
RE: Keenum and Eli are two completely different QBs  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 11:57 am : link
In comment 14103371 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and yet it feels like we're running the same damn offense.


Yes, this is what I'm saying.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 11:58 am : link
If Eli can't make these reads, he shouldn't be playing. I'm sorry.

These are plays you only get a couple of chances to make in a game and you can't miss them when they're there.

He didn't even attempt to get the ball down the field.

These are TD passes for a lot of other QB's because they either buy the extra 2 seconds to get a better throwing lane or they hang in the pocket just a little longer.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 11:59 am : link
In comment 14103367 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

It's pretty easy to understand.

Everything around him has changed, yet the offense has continued to struggle. He's the constant.

How many more coaches and sets of players do we need to go through until we're willing to admit this?

All the posters who keep saying the OL isn't good enough - well, guess what, this is what most offensive lines look like in 2018. If you want a dominant, elite offensive line, we're going to need about 2-3 more years to get that on the field.

Then Eli is 40 years old.

Cleveland's offense looked INEPT with Taylor on the field. All everyone said was "wow that offensive line is awful!" Then they dropped 40+ with Mayfield in his first NFL start.

When was the last time the Giants dropped 40+ points?

This offense is not producing. It hasn't produced. Different systems, different coordinators, different skill players.

My argument isn't that Eli is the ONLY problem. My argument is that if we can't score points with him, we should perhaps start thinking about his successor sooner than later.


Changing players doesnt always equate to better results. Thats all I am going to say. A bad offensive line has been constant for many many many years. Irregardless of players.
RE: .  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14103377 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
If Eli can't make these reads, he shouldn't be playing. I'm sorry.

These are plays you only get a couple of chances to make in a game and you can't miss them when they're there.

He didn't even attempt to get the ball down the field.

These are TD passes for a lot of other QB's because they either buy the extra 2 seconds to get a better throwing lane or they hang in the pocket just a little longer. Link - ( New Window )


Well, we'll see if that changes as the year progresses, whether he sees this in his film study and progresses from it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14103379 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103367 arcarsenal said:


Quote:



It's pretty easy to understand.

Everything around him has changed, yet the offense has continued to struggle. He's the constant.

How many more coaches and sets of players do we need to go through until we're willing to admit this?

All the posters who keep saying the OL isn't good enough - well, guess what, this is what most offensive lines look like in 2018. If you want a dominant, elite offensive line, we're going to need about 2-3 more years to get that on the field.

Then Eli is 40 years old.

Cleveland's offense looked INEPT with Taylor on the field. All everyone said was "wow that offensive line is awful!" Then they dropped 40+ with Mayfield in his first NFL start.

When was the last time the Giants dropped 40+ points?

This offense is not producing. It hasn't produced. Different systems, different coordinators, different skill players.

My argument isn't that Eli is the ONLY problem. My argument is that if we can't score points with him, we should perhaps start thinking about his successor sooner than later.



Changing players doesnt always equate to better results. Thats all I am going to say. A bad offensive line has been constant for many many many years. Irregardless of players.


Maybe it's not the offensive line as much as you think it is.

How many more years should we spend firing coaches and swapping new players in and out to see when we can finally put a decent offense on the field again?

2 years? 3 years?
Great job, arc  
JonC : 10/2/2018 12:03 pm : link
I understand wanting to give Eli every chance to succeed. Hell, it is the franchise mandate for 2018, but if the Giants win 4-6 games this season, and the performance trend continues ... then I find it hard to understand why fans would WANT to continue as is and build around Eli at 38.

The window is rapidly closing if it's not already shut, and the Giants are standing still hoping Eli is reborn while they try to patch together the OL, etc. I too would rather pull the plug sooner than later.
RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14103377 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
If Eli can't make these reads, he shouldn't be playing. I'm sorry.

These are plays you only get a couple of chances to make in a game and you can't miss them when they're there.

He didn't even attempt to get the ball down the field.

These are TD passes for a lot of other QB's because they either buy the extra 2 seconds to get a better throwing lane or they hang in the pocket just a little longer. Link - ( New Window )


See, this is why I hate tlking QB play. This play that is being broken down is a play to Russell Shepard who becomes wide open AFTER the ball was thrown. You see the defenders moving forward and plus Shepard isnt EVEN LOOKING for the ball. If Eli stares him down - you dont think the defenders would react???


I dont know. I am sure there are plenty of times Eli misses guys for whatever reason. I hope for the people here he is gone after this year. And I pray that the next QB can do things that people want. I suspect that we will see a ton of struggles next year whoever the QB is.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Understood  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 12:04 pm : link
In comment 14103362 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103359 figgy2989 said:


Quote:




I'm saying he is running the offense as it is designed, currently.


So it's really Shurmur holding Eli back at this point. Have fun on your crusade Britt.
I'm not saying anybody is holding anybody back....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 12:05 pm : link
I'm trying to understand EVERYTHING that's happening.
And say Eli is 100% wrong for that play  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 12:05 pm : link
if we have 1-2 chances a game to make a play - then the offense sucks regardless.

Every week I see teams have huge amount of attempts to make plays. And for us to be done after missing 1-2 tells me a bigger picture.
No matter how you spin it, bad things are happening.  
jcn56 : 10/2/2018 12:06 pm : link
I get it - we don't want to believe the Giants are in deep shit. We want to think that they've got this figured out, but just need time.

I just don't see how you can sell it any way that makes sense. Either:

- The Giants knew the roster was rotten and was in need of a large infusion of talent, specifically on the OL. They knew they needed at least 2 seasons to turn it around.
----If this is the case, then Eli should have been traded or let go. He won't last until that turnaround is complete.

- The Giants thought they could rebuild the OL quickly, and the addition of Barkley would add an element to the offense that would help Eli out.
----If this is the case, they were dead wrong.

We're fucked. Whether you think Eli is a big part of the problem or not, it's clear he's not going to be part of the solution. Now is the time to pray these fuckers didn't completely blow their QB evaluations, because if they did, this is going to look even worse than it already does.
And Ive said it before and I'll say it again  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 12:08 pm : link
Darnold should have been the pick. But he isnt. Eli is our QB and thats not going to change, at least til next year.

The hand wringing over 1-2 plays a game is just asinine.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:09 pm : link
In comment 14103387 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103377 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


If Eli can't make these reads, he shouldn't be playing. I'm sorry.

These are plays you only get a couple of chances to make in a game and you can't miss them when they're there.

He didn't even attempt to get the ball down the field.

These are TD passes for a lot of other QB's because they either buy the extra 2 seconds to get a better throwing lane or they hang in the pocket just a little longer. Link - ( New Window )



See, this is why I hate tlking QB play. This play that is being broken down is a play to Russell Shepard who becomes wide open AFTER the ball was thrown. You see the defenders moving forward and plus Shepard isnt EVEN LOOKING for the ball. If Eli stares him down - you dont think the defenders would react???


I dont know. I am sure there are plenty of times Eli misses guys for whatever reason. I hope for the people here he is gone after this year. And I pray that the next QB can do things that people want. I suspect that we will see a ton of struggles next year whoever the QB is.


Who is asking Eli to stare his target down?

You don't see a play there to be made?

I am seeing tons of plays made in the NFL when QB's are able to create a couple of extra seconds. Eli is not capable of doing that.

And no, this isn't the "mobile QB" buzzword. I'm not looking for a guy who is going to take off running all the time. I'm talking about being able to buy an extra couple of seconds if your protection isn't perfect.

Eli doens't do that and we miss on a lot of potential plays as a result.

The big play has been noticeably absent for a long time. And I'm not talking about quick slants that Beckham takes to the house by outrunning the entire defense.

We were 3rd to last in 20+ yard plays last year and are in the bottom 3rd of the league so far again this year.
good posts arc  
Kyle in NY : 10/2/2018 12:12 pm : link
rational, respectful of what Eli has meant to this franchise, but also realistic about what we've seen through 4 weeks. This is going to get ugly if something doesn't get fixed fast.
RE: RE: RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14103405 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

Who is asking Eli to stare his target down?

You don't see a play there to be made?

I am seeing tons of plays made in the NFL when QB's are able to create a couple of extra seconds. Eli is not capable of doing that.

And no, this isn't the "mobile QB" buzzword. I'm not looking for a guy who is going to take off running all the time. I'm talking about being able to buy an extra couple of seconds if your protection isn't perfect.

Eli doens't do that and we miss on a lot of potential plays as a result.

The big play has been noticeably absent for a long time. And I'm not talking about quick slants that Beckham takes to the house by outrunning the entire defense.

We were 3rd to last in 20+ yard plays last year and are in the bottom 3rd of the league so far again this year.


Arc,

This could be a play Eli missed. My point is if we only have a few plays like this a game, we have bigger issues than just a QB. You should have a few opportunities like this a drive/quarter. Not a game.
Iím in the camp that doesnít place blame on 1 individual  
UConn4523 : 10/2/2018 12:13 pm : link
Eli didnít have a good game at all on Sunday, neither did Shurmur. Both need to adjust and fix what isnít working. Shurmur should have ran the ball more, and Eli should be taking more shots down field.
I've been as critical of Eli as anyone lately  
jcn56 : 10/2/2018 12:15 pm : link
but to Britt's original point - while I think Eli is part of the problem, I don't think Shurmur is helping matters either.

Honestly, if I had been in a coma until this today and watched this season's games, you wouldn't be able to convince me they had changed the FO and HC from last season. The results look every bit as shitty as they were last year.
RE: No matter how you spin it, bad things are happening.  
giants#1 : 10/2/2018 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14103396 jcn56 said:
Quote:
I get it - we don't want to believe the Giants are in deep shit. We want to think that they've got this figured out, but just need time.

I just don't see how you can sell it any way that makes sense. Either:

- The Giants knew the roster was rotten and was in need of a large infusion of talent, specifically on the OL. They knew they needed at least 2 seasons to turn it around.
----If this is the case, then Eli should have been traded or let go. He won't last until that turnaround is complete.

- The Giants thought they could rebuild the OL quickly, and the addition of Barkley would add an element to the offense that would help Eli out.
----If this is the case, they were dead wrong.

We're fucked. Whether you think Eli is a big part of the problem or not, it's clear he's not going to be part of the solution. Now is the time to pray these fuckers didn't completely blow their QB evaluations, because if they did, this is going to look even worse than it already does.


Why are those the only viable options?

Maybe they knew the roster was rotten and in need of a large infusion of talent and felt Barkley >>> Darnold/Rosen/Allen. If they didn't view anyone in that trio as being a franchise QB, why overreach for them? That's how teams end up with Blake Bortles instead of Mack, Donald, Beckham, etc.

Now it's only been 4 games, but Barkley (IMO) certainly has the potential to be in that Mack/Donald/Beckham class. Who knows with the QB trio though. Gotta give QBs at least 2 years (Goff looked like a career backup his rookie season).
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:19 pm : link
In comment 14103416 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103405 arcarsenal said:


Quote:



Who is asking Eli to stare his target down?

You don't see a play there to be made?

I am seeing tons of plays made in the NFL when QB's are able to create a couple of extra seconds. Eli is not capable of doing that.

And no, this isn't the "mobile QB" buzzword. I'm not looking for a guy who is going to take off running all the time. I'm talking about being able to buy an extra couple of seconds if your protection isn't perfect.

Eli doens't do that and we miss on a lot of potential plays as a result.

The big play has been noticeably absent for a long time. And I'm not talking about quick slants that Beckham takes to the house by outrunning the entire defense.

We were 3rd to last in 20+ yard plays last year and are in the bottom 3rd of the league so far again this year.



Arc,

This could be a play Eli missed. My point is if we only have a few plays like this a game, we have bigger issues than just a QB. You should have a few opportunities like this a drive/quarter. Not a game.


A few opportunities like this per drive? No way.

You don't get these many times a game, and this is where a lot of the missing points are.

We aren't connecting on these.

How many times can you recall us hitting on a big play downfield for a touchdown recently?

Not quick slants that go the distance. Throws that go 30+ yards downfield into the endzone for a score.

It's not happening now. It wasn't happening last year and it didn't happen the year before, either.

We have the players to make the big plays - but we aren't making them.
RE: RE: No matter how you spin it, bad things are happening.  
jcn56 : 10/2/2018 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14103427 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103396 jcn56 said:


Quote:


I get it - we don't want to believe the Giants are in deep shit. We want to think that they've got this figured out, but just need time.

I just don't see how you can sell it any way that makes sense. Either:

- The Giants knew the roster was rotten and was in need of a large infusion of talent, specifically on the OL. They knew they needed at least 2 seasons to turn it around.
----If this is the case, then Eli should have been traded or let go. He won't last until that turnaround is complete.

- The Giants thought they could rebuild the OL quickly, and the addition of Barkley would add an element to the offense that would help Eli out.
----If this is the case, they were dead wrong.

We're fucked. Whether you think Eli is a big part of the problem or not, it's clear he's not going to be part of the solution. Now is the time to pray these fuckers didn't completely blow their QB evaluations, because if they did, this is going to look even worse than it already does.



Why are those the only viable options?

Maybe they knew the roster was rotten and in need of a large infusion of talent and felt Barkley >>> Darnold/Rosen/Allen. If they didn't view anyone in that trio as being a franchise QB, why overreach for them? That's how teams end up with Blake Bortles instead of Mack, Donald, Beckham, etc.

Now it's only been 4 games, but Barkley (IMO) certainly has the potential to be in that Mack/Donald/Beckham class. Who knows with the QB trio though. Gotta give QBs at least 2 years (Goff looked like a career backup his rookie season).


Maybe (see my last paragraph). But at that point, why keep Eli around? The cap hit would have amounted to $11.5M according to OTC. You'd get money back, and could play a scrub QB (like Webb?) for a season, knowing the results would be terrible and you'd be back at the well in 2019 for a QB. What was the point of keeping Eli around and subjecting him and us to this shit? A combination of an immobile QB and a useless OL doesn't benefit anyone.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 12:23 pm : link
In comment 14103432 arcarsenal said:
Quote:


A few opportunities like this per drive? No way.

You don't get these many times a game, and this is where a lot of the missing points are.

We aren't connecting on these.

How many times can you recall us hitting on a big play downfield for a touchdown recently?

Not quick slants that go the distance. Throws that go 30+ yards downfield into the endzone for a score.

It's not happening now. It wasn't happening last year and it didn't happen the year before, either.

We have the players to make the big plays - but we aren't making them.


We have one player who can go deep for the scores you want. The player is often doubled. SS cant do it. EE isnt the guy either. Latimer may get 1-2 this year.

.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:26 pm : link
He has been open several times down the field and isn't getting the football.
arc hates Eli and forgets he has two Super Bowl MVPs.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/2/2018 12:30 pm : link
Loser.
RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14103446 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
He has been open several times down the field and isn't getting the football.


So is this about appeasing OBJ or making the Giants better?
New offense  
crick n NC : 10/2/2018 12:39 pm : link
New coach, new players inconsistent offense. That sounds about right, although improvement is rightfully expected, of course how do we know how much this offense should improve on what amount of time. Valid questions
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14103474 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103446 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


He has been open several times down the field and isn't getting the football.



So is this about appeasing OBJ or making the Giants better?


It's about making plays down the field when they are there to be made. It has absolutely nothing to do with appeasing OBJ. We're a better team when we get him the football and we're not doing a good job of that right now.

Eli has been around for about a decade and a half now. He shouldn't need half a season to learn a new offense when several other QB's in this league are doing more under the same circumstances.
RE: RE: RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14103490 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14103474 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 14103446 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


He has been open several times down the field and isn't getting the football.



So is this about appeasing OBJ or making the Giants better?



It's about making plays down the field when they are there to be made. It has absolutely nothing to do with appeasing OBJ. We're a better team when we get him the football and we're not doing a good job of that right now.


Beckham is 4th in the NFL in catches. Your beef isnt getting him the ball, its where he is getting it. Thats a coaching, design problem.
RE: arc hates Eli and forgets he has two Super Bowl MVPs.  
bw in dc : 10/2/2018 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14103457 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Loser.


Did you even read the material acr wrote above? It's well reasoned and measured.

This give him the benefit-of-the-doubt-for-services-rendered routine has to end. I don't give a fly f-ck what Eli did 6 years ago, I care what he's doing now. And right now, he's not making enough plays.

And you can't create football utopia where everything is ideal - great oline, great receivers, great RBs, great scheme, great coaching, great weather, great officiating, great luck, etc. The cap and God won't allow it...
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:44 pm : link
No, it's not all coaching. The QB is missing throws or not even seeing him when he's open down the field.

You can't blame everything on the coaches and the offensive line.

Beckham is as good a WR as there is in football at gaining separation and getting open. Why are we only able to get him the football within 10-15 yards of the LOS? He's not running any routes deeper than that?

Nonsense.
Lots of backpedaling and rationalization this week  
bigbluehoya : 10/2/2018 12:45 pm : link
After some full-throated callouts and chest thumping from the Eli brigade last week.

The last two games have shown that some moderation is warranted from both extremes.

To me, the balance of the evidence to this point would suggest that it was 100% reasonable to question if retaining the player at $22M was prudent. But I remain hopeful that some increased reps for the new offense and a more favorable schedule ahead may lead to some meaningful improvement.
RE: .  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14103506 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
No, it's not all coaching. The QB is missing throws or not even seeing him when he's open down the field.

You can't blame everything on the coaches and the offensive line.

Beckham is as good a WR as there is in football at gaining separation and getting open. Why are we only able to get him the football within 10-15 yards of the LOS? He's not running any routes deeper than that?

Nonsense.


Well....

Quote:
Staying on schedule is huge

Minnesotaís offense was all predicated on staying on schedule. They werenít built to come from behind or convert a lot of 3rd and longs (few teams are built for this). Their run/pass split was one of the most balanced in the league last year as they were near 50% of runs and passes.

Getting small chunks of yards that set up 2nd or 3rd and manageable kept them from getting behind the sticks early in drives.

Low risk plays led to low turnovers

Low risk doesnít necessarily mean no big plays, as Keenum still had his fair share of big plays. However, the bread and butter of the offense was a short/intermediate passing game that were inherently lower risk passes.

This approach allowed Keenum to finish top 5 in interception rate, along with Drew Brees and Tom Brady (who employ similar offensive strategies).

Get the ball to players in space

Weíll dig into it more in a later post, but Case Keenum and the Minnesota offense was one of the best in the league at generating YAC for the offense. They did this by scheming players into space where they could go make a play.
Cutting Eli was a $28M cap hit  
JonC : 10/2/2018 12:47 pm : link
so that option was out once the Broncos signed Keenum, as they were believed to be the strongest suitor for Eli.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14103516 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103506 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


No, it's not all coaching. The QB is missing throws or not even seeing him when he's open down the field.

You can't blame everything on the coaches and the offensive line.

Beckham is as good a WR as there is in football at gaining separation and getting open. Why are we only able to get him the football within 10-15 yards of the LOS? He's not running any routes deeper than that?

Nonsense.



Well....



Quote:


Staying on schedule is huge

Minnesotaís offense was all predicated on staying on schedule. They werenít built to come from behind or convert a lot of 3rd and longs (few teams are built for this). Their run/pass split was one of the most balanced in the league last year as they were near 50% of runs and passes.

Getting small chunks of yards that set up 2nd or 3rd and manageable kept them from getting behind the sticks early in drives.

Low risk plays led to low turnovers

Low risk doesnít necessarily mean no big plays, as Keenum still had his fair share of big plays. However, the bread and butter of the offense was a short/intermediate passing game that were inherently lower risk passes.

This approach allowed Keenum to finish top 5 in interception rate, along with Drew Brees and Tom Brady (who employ similar offensive strategies).

Get the ball to players in space

Weíll dig into it more in a later post, but Case Keenum and the Minnesota offense was one of the best in the league at generating YAC for the offense. They did this by scheming players into space where they could go make a play.



Part of what you bolded highlights that Keenum still hit on his share of big plays.

Where are ours?
RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14103506 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
No, it's not all coaching. The QB is missing throws or not even seeing him when he's open down the field.

You can't blame everything on the coaches and the offensive line.

Beckham is as good a WR as there is in football at gaining separation and getting open. Why are we only able to get him the football within 10-15 yards of the LOS? He's not running any routes deeper than that?

Nonsense.


Well do you know the breakdown of deep routes compared to short routes? I dont know. I know you dont. OBJ, Eli, and Shurmur have said that defense are trying to limit OBJ from getting behind them, so I think that should answer it.

And AGAIN, Eli has missed him. That seems to be lost by people ripping Eli left and right. Eli has missed OBJ a couple times. he missed him for a TD in the Jacksonville game. He missed him twice in the first half for easy completions which are totally Eli's fault. But man this play to Shepard is going to be overanalyzed to death like the tipped ball in week 1.

Open receivers are missed a lot during games for various reasons. It sucks, but it happens.

Usually its unluckly for a new QB to replace a team legend when the legend leaves - but the next Giants QB has it made in the shade. If he performs - great he is doing well and will do things Eli couldnt. If he struggles - people can just say well Eli struggled for years.
Dunno, maybe they're coming....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 12:51 pm : link
I feel like I've seen a few missed attempts, like OBJ open week 1 in the endzone. Maybe a completion or two so far, I think Lattimer and Sheppard have caught a deep one more than 20 yards so far.

Like I said, I'm hopeful that as player become more comfortable, maybe they will come.
RE: Cutting Eli was a $28M cap hit  
bigbluehoya : 10/2/2018 12:51 pm : link
In comment 14103517 JonC said:
Quote:
so that option was out once the Broncos signed Keenum, as they were believed to be the strongest suitor for Eli.


Jon, Iím not 100% positive but I believe this may be incorrect. The numbers you are currently looking at on Spotrac or the like are treating his current year salary and roster bonus as part of the dead cap because theyíve passed as of the present date.

My understanding is that cutting bait prior to 3/18/18 was a savings of roughly $10m.

Again, could be wrong.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:52 pm : link
It's not a good sign when we need to hinge on things like "hope" at this point.

We're hoping Eli can even just be Case Keenum now.

The bar just keeps getting lower and lower...
I never compared Eli directly to Keenum in a player vs. player  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 12:55 pm : link
comparison. I don't care if you say it over and over that I did, I did not.

I'm comparing what they are being asked to do within the offense that they are operating, with similar results.

All that Minnesota stuff is right there for you. That's what Shurmur ran there, and that's what he's running here.
hoya  
JonC : 10/2/2018 12:55 pm : link
I'll ask around, it's a good question and I missed the dynamic you mentioned.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 12:56 pm : link
In comment 14103522 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103506 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


No, it's not all coaching. The QB is missing throws or not even seeing him when he's open down the field.

You can't blame everything on the coaches and the offensive line.

Beckham is as good a WR as there is in football at gaining separation and getting open. Why are we only able to get him the football within 10-15 yards of the LOS? He's not running any routes deeper than that?

Nonsense.



Well do you know the breakdown of deep routes compared to short routes? I dont know. I know you dont. OBJ, Eli, and Shurmur have said that defense are trying to limit OBJ from getting behind them, so I think that should answer it.

And AGAIN, Eli has missed him. That seems to be lost by people ripping Eli left and right. Eli has missed OBJ a couple times. he missed him for a TD in the Jacksonville game. He missed him twice in the first half for easy completions which are totally Eli's fault. But man this play to Shepard is going to be overanalyzed to death like the tipped ball in week 1.

Open receivers are missed a lot during games for various reasons. It sucks, but it happens.

Usually its unluckly for a new QB to replace a team legend when the legend leaves - but the next Giants QB has it made in the shade. If he performs - great he is doing well and will do things Eli couldnt. If he struggles - people can just say well Eli struggled for years.


We are at a point now where we can't afford the misses. Some teams can. We clearly cannot.

So, if Eli is going to miss these big plays when they are there - what are we relying on him for?

The offense is now at a point where the only plays that have a chance are the ones that are perfectly blocked and executed. There is no improv aspect to Eli's game. If a play is off schedule, it fails. That means that we almost HAVE to hit on the few opportunities like these that present themselves. Otherwise we are hoping for long dink and dunk drives which, again, are difficult because the more plays you run, the more the odds of a mistake or a turnover will increase.

This doesn't seem like an offense that is just going to "click" any time soon to me. But, I guess we can just keep waiting and hoping... we've been doing it the last few years. What's a few more.
My hope is that Eli will get better results....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 12:57 pm : link
over the course of the season, because he is a better player than Keenum.

But right now, early, he is operating within and learning the offense. I hope he will get more comfortable and things will open up.
The overall philosophy is....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 1:00 pm : link
Call deep shots, but if it's not there take the sure yardage and get yourself into managable down and distance to dictate the game. Deep plays are not the only way to make explosive plays.

Shurmur said it, Eli said it, Keenum said it.

That's the philosophy and how they are running the offense... right, wrong, or indifferent.
And the fact that Keenum is saying it on another team....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 1:01 pm : link
shows you that this is not something that Shurmur is saying to protect Manning, it's a philosophy he's teaching the QB's that run his offense.
It's weird..  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 1:01 pm : link
if you read this place back in May, June, July, and August, this was going to be 'Eli's revenge tour' and he was going to shove it up everyone's ass. Now, a full month into the regular season already, we have to wait and be patient...yet again....even after just playing the worst pass defense in the league...at home...in perfect weather conditions.

Okay.

RE: RE: RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14103538 arcarsenal said:
Quote:




We are at a point now where we can't afford the misses. Some teams can. We clearly cannot.

So, if Eli is going to miss these big plays when they are there - what are we relying on him for?

The offense is now at a point where the only plays that have a chance are the ones that are perfectly blocked and executed. There is no improv aspect to Eli's game. If a play is off schedule, it fails. That means that we almost HAVE to hit on the few opportunities like these that present themselves. Otherwise we are hoping for long dink and dunk drives which, again, are difficult because the more plays you run, the more the odds of a mistake or a turnover will increase.

This doesn't seem like an offense that is just going to "click" any time soon to me. But, I guess we can just keep waiting and hoping... we've been doing it the last few years. What's a few more.


Its probably going to be his last year here. So the hand wringing should be constrained at least some.

I am not singingly you out, I am speaking in general. A lot of people want Eli gone, and I fully understand it. I just hope people realize that by replacing him, doesnt mean success is guaranteed. Especially instantly.

I truly wished they drafted Darnold. Eli could have started for a bunch of games until we were eliminated, Darnold could have taken over and start in 2019. But unfortunatley our GM didnt see that.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 1:06 pm : link
Well, we made the bed - we can't do anything about it now.

I think we're in for another long, frustrating football season with more struggling offense and more goalpost moving to figure out new ways to claim it's not Eli's fault.. but I guess we'll see.
People are afraid of dead money  
AcesUp : 10/2/2018 1:07 pm : link
But if you are not going to be competitive in a given year, it makes sense to carry the cap burden that year to clear the books for when you actually do have a chance. Even if that means you are staring down the barrel of an 8 figure dead money hit. A little early to write the Giants off completely but if this continues, hindsight dictates we were better off moving on from Eli this past offseason. Especially when you factor in the roster bonus that hit in March.
RE: .  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14103559 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Well, we made the bed - we can't do anything about it now.

I think we're in for another long, frustrating football season with more struggling offense and more goalpost moving to figure out new ways to claim it's not Eli's fault.. but I guess we'll see.


See your making this ALL about Eli. And thats where I think this board needs to step back and realize we have a lot of problems. Draftign Darnold this year wasnt going to change the other narratives.

We havent had a free safety since Kenny Phillips.
We have 1 LB - again
We dont sack the QB or force turnovers.
We cant run the ball.... again.
Eli is being paid a ton of money, but so is Solder and Vernon and they havent come close to producing either.
We have one reliable corner.

Again, we arent very good for many reasons, one of them being the QB. But what are 95% of the post about it..... you guessed it.
Britt  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 1:09 pm : link
I know you like to always compare the 04 draft class. Big Ben gets a new OC, doesn't miss a stride. Whisenhunt leaves the chargers in 2013, Rivers keeps putting up numbers.

Why can't we have similar expectations for Eli and that a veteran QB should be able to adapt quicker than say a journeyman QB (Keenum)?
This  
Thegratefulhead : 10/2/2018 1:16 pm : link
Is the exact shitshow I dreaded would happen. There are posts I made last year about what this was going to look like for Eli and management if this didn't go well. With every loss, questions about is or isn't Eli toast. It gets good ratings. The media loves controversy. The pressure is mounting. Eli knows, you know he knows. He is afraid to make a mistake, it is why he looks so bad. What made him great "HE HAS A FEEL FOR THE POCKET. FEELS THE RUSH THROWS THE BALL, TAKES THE HIT, GETS RIGHT BACK UPÖ HAS COURAGE AND POISE. IN MY OPINION, MOST OF ALL, HE HAS THAT QUALITY THAT YOU CANíT DEFINE. CALL IT MAGIC. AS [FORMER BALTIMORE COLTS DEFENSIVE BACK] BOBBY BOYD TOLD ME ONCE ABOUT UNITAS, ďTWO THINGS SET HIM APART: HIS LEFT TESTICLE AND HIS RIGHT TESTICLEĒÖ" The magic is gone, you can feel it's absence when you watch him play. It isn't a stat. He had it and it is gone. I think he can summon it once in while and make you remember why you loved to watch him play. It's like a ghost of what is was though.
RE: Britt  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14103568 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
I know you like to always compare the 04 draft class. Big Ben gets a new OC, doesn't miss a stride. Whisenhunt leaves the chargers in 2013, Rivers keeps putting up numbers.

Why can't we have similar expectations for Eli and that a veteran QB should be able to adapt quicker than say a journeyman QB (Keenum)?


Big Ben has been awful this year.
What we need  
5BowlsSoon : 10/2/2018 1:21 pm : link
Is a mobile qb who can improvise when the OL breaks down. Many teams have OL problems like us, but they have a qb who knows how to buy time, throw on the run, move in the pocket.

Attention: ELI IS NOT CAPABLE TO DO THAT. Therefore, you have to give him 4-5 seconds in the pocket to be effective. That isnít possible.

Conclusion: either you get 2-3 stud lineman or get a more mobile qb
RE: RE: Britt  
bw in dc : 10/2/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14103594 dep026 said:
Quote:


Big Ben has been awful this year.


Awful isn't the right word. He's had two poor games and two really good games.
RE: RE: Britt  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14103594 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103568 figgy2989 said:


Quote:


I know you like to always compare the 04 draft class. Big Ben gets a new OC, doesn't miss a stride. Whisenhunt leaves the chargers in 2013, Rivers keeps putting up numbers.

Why can't we have similar expectations for Eli and that a veteran QB should be able to adapt quicker than say a journeyman QB (Keenum)?



Big Ben has been awful this year.


Dep, awful? I know you have an agenda here, but come on.
RE: RE: RE: Britt  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14103601 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103594 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 14103568 figgy2989 said:


Quote:


I know you like to always compare the 04 draft class. Big Ben gets a new OC, doesn't miss a stride. Whisenhunt leaves the chargers in 2013, Rivers keeps putting up numbers.

Why can't we have similar expectations for Eli and that a veteran QB should be able to adapt quicker than say a journeyman QB (Keenum)?



Big Ben has been awful this year.



Dep, awful? I know you have an agenda here, but come on.


Maybe not awful.... but he lost about 4 strides this year. He was terrible in cleveland and Sunday night. He had a good game against KC and TB - but his turnovers have been on the uptick and cost them in a lot of situations.
RE: .  
HomerJones45 : 10/2/2018 1:27 pm : link
In comment 14103332 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Eli has 4 TD passes in 4 games.

Mitch Trubisky, who "sucks" I was told, threw more than that in one half of football Sunday.
Tampa helped- their pass defense is non-existent. The Bears also have more weapons- they have a good TE, 4 functional receivers and two backs who can catch. Even a clown like Trubisky and be successful with that crew and a bad defense.

You guys are still over-estimating our personnel. We have no tight end at the moment, no 3rd wideout (GTFO with Latimer- he has sucked for going on 5 years now), one great wideout, a second wideout who is a possession receiver who scares no one down the field and 1 great running back.

Look at the receiving corps for the 4 teams that played Sunday night and Monday night. The wideouts go 4 deep, they have multiple backs and tight ends who can catch and they have multiple players with speed and quickness.

We are trying to run a modern NFL passing attack with two players when the successful teams have 6 or 7. Double or triple team ODB and SB and we are done- the other guys can be singled covered without risk.

Guess what, all qb's miss open guys. The issue is they will have guys get open again; we won't.
Still found a way to put up numbers  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 1:27 pm : link
Can you imagine once he gets "comfortable" in the system and working with a new OC?
The upside  
crick n NC : 10/2/2018 1:43 pm : link
To being wrong is the chance to learn, if we aren't too proud
The Eli debates are maddening.  
rocco8112 : 10/2/2018 1:47 pm : link
Fact is he is the starter for what might be the worst team in the league. This team sucks and does nothing well. It is getting harder and harder to defend Eli and he is football old. Hitching the wagon to the Eli train may prove to be a disaster for the franchise. Although, with the top four pick in the next draft the team can draft a QB.

I hate watching Eli go out like this, but what can you do I just hope he can finish with a career record above five hundred.

As to why he is throwing short, it really is not rocket science. It is the same reason Barkley gets only ten rushes, they do not trust the o line to block. They can't run deep drops and they can't run the ball against a soft box. Everyone is backed up clogging all passing lanes. This has been going on for a long time now.

Also, the last coach conditioned Eli to get the ball out fast, get the ball the FUCK OUT to a receiver to mitigate the shit o line. That seems to be continuing now and that philosophy has fucked up Eli more than being hit.

You can't scheme around a league worst o line. They can't run with power and teams get consistent pressure with four. Also, the Giants have to be pacing the NFL in runs for loss. Big money man Solder whiffed and caused a tfl in this week's shit show and he is the best lineman on the team.

Eli is done here and this team sucks brutally. They do. I just hope this GM can find the next QB and bring in talent and that this coach is good. If not strap in for a decade of losing.

As to the original poster's point. It is interesting to see Keenum's comments and look for insight in this system. It changes nothing though, this team is the one every other team wants to play to get an easy W. Eli is part of it and this will be his last year in the league. Sucks, but what can you do.

RE: RE: .  
christian : 10/2/2018 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14103607 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103332 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Eli has 4 TD passes in 4 games.

Mitch Trubisky, who "sucks" I was told, threw more than that in one half of football Sunday.

Tampa helped- their pass defense is non-existent. The Bears also have more weapons- they have a good TE, 4 functional receivers and two backs who can catch. Even a clown like Trubisky and be successful with that crew and a bad defense.

You guys are still over-estimating our personnel. We have no tight end at the moment, no 3rd wideout (GTFO with Latimer- he has sucked for going on 5 years now), one great wideout, a second wideout who is a possession receiver who scares no one down the field and 1 great running back.

Look at the receiving corps for the 4 teams that played Sunday night and Monday night. The wideouts go 4 deep, they have multiple backs and tight ends who can catch and they have multiple players with speed and quickness.

We are trying to run a modern NFL passing attack with two players when the successful teams have 6 or 7. Double or triple team ODB and SB and we are done- the other guys can be singled covered without risk.

Guess what, all qb's miss open guys. The issue is they will have guys get open again; we won't.


HJ45 and I have agreed about one time in the last 20 years -- this absolutely hits the nail on the head.

This offense has 2 great players, and 2-3 good-NFL caliber skill players. Behind that are a bunch of fringe players who no one would be surprised if they were out of the NFL next year.

The Giants are several players on offense from being good. That includes lineman, skill players and probably QB.
So am I summarizing the point of this Thread correctly...  
Jimmy Googs : 10/2/2018 2:11 pm : link
The Giants offense is purposely designed not to throw the ball deep or take chances whatsoever. Disregard the facts and circumstances of an individual play or score in the game.

Eli is being instructed to keep this offense in neutral based on reading certain defenses that are presumably impenetrable. Including the 30th ranked pass defense of the Saints.

None of this has anything to do with Eli. The coaches think this gives the team the best chance to win, and Eli is jsut doing what he is coached to do.

As an aside, the Giants are 4-16 over their last 20 games and haven't scored 30+ points in several years.

do I have it?
RE: RE: RE: No matter how you spin it, bad things are happening.  
giants#1 : 10/2/2018 2:20 pm : link
In comment 14103435 jcn56 said:
Quote:

Maybe (see my last paragraph). But at that point, why keep Eli around? The cap hit would have amounted to $11.5M according to OTC. You'd get money back, and could play a scrub QB (like Webb?) for a season, knowing the results would be terrible and you'd be back at the well in 2019 for a QB. What was the point of keeping Eli around and subjecting him and us to this shit? A combination of an immobile QB and a useless OL doesn't benefit anyone.


Cynically? $$$$ The fan backlash if they cut him and went with Webb/Lauletta would've been ridiculous.

If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, they were/are hoping to catch lightning in a bottle one last time.

Even the biggest Eli supporter (ok, maybe not dep/Britt), would've agreed back in March that he had 2, maybe 3, years left at a level that would put him at the bottom of the top 10 QBs (at best). So any decent GM would consider drafting his replacement, yet the Giants went with Barkley. Why?

IMO, they just didn't see a franchise QB in the Darnold/Allen/Rosen trio. We'll see if they were right, especially with Darnold playing for the Jets.

So now Eli can't succeed because we lack skill players....  
Tesla : 10/2/2018 2:28 pm : link
when all offseason we were raving about all the offensive weapons we have? ESPN ranked our offensive skill players 2nd in the league before the season started.

But now they suck and Eli has nobody to throw to.

Plus it's also the OL's fault.

Plus also Shurmur doesn't know what he's doing.

Plus Eli's missing only a few throws a game...I mean every QB does that, right!

Plus I heard the new equipment guy ordered the wrong size uniform for Eli this year and it's a size too small and it's really affecting Eli's ability to threw the deep out.
RE: RE: RE: No matter how you spin it, bad things are happening.  
ron mexico : 10/2/2018 2:30 pm : link
"
Maybe (see my last paragraph). But at that point, why keep Eli around? The cap hit would have amounted to $11.5M according to OTC. You'd get money back, and could play a scrub QB (like Webb?) for a season, knowing the results would be terrible and you'd be back at the well in 2019 for a QB. What was the point of keeping Eli around and subjecting him and us to this shit? A combination of an immobile QB and a useless OL doesn't benefit anyone. "

Just to clarify - Eli would have the same cap hit on or off the roster for this year. And thats before the $5mm roster bonus. Come draft day (to be precise the 3rd day of the league year) it would cost the Giants $5mm more to cut him than to keep him on.

Since there would be no financial benefit from parting ways, might as well trot hi out there and hope for the best.

I almost
RE: So now Eli can't succeed because we lack skill players....  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14103687 Tesla said:
Quote:
when all offseason we were raving about all the offensive weapons we have? ESPN ranked our offensive skill players 2nd in the league before the season started.

But now they suck and Eli has nobody to throw to.

Plus it's also the OL's fault.

Plus also Shurmur doesn't know what he's doing.

Plus Eli's missing only a few throws a game...I mean every QB does that, right!

Plus I heard the new equipment guy ordered the wrong size uniform for Eli this year and it's a size too small and it's really affecting Eli's ability to threw the deep out.


At this point, the Giants could go 0-16 next season and Eli could throw 50 picks, and there'd still be at least two people here claiming it isn't Eli's fault and to give him a couple more years, he'll eventually get it!
RE: RE: So now Eli can't succeed because we lack skill players....  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14103705 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 14103687 Tesla said:


Quote:


when all offseason we were raving about all the offensive weapons we have? ESPN ranked our offensive skill players 2nd in the league before the season started.

But now they suck and Eli has nobody to throw to.

Plus it's also the OL's fault.

Plus also Shurmur doesn't know what he's doing.

Plus Eli's missing only a few throws a game...I mean every QB does that, right!

Plus I heard the new equipment guy ordered the wrong size uniform for Eli this year and it's a size too small and it's really affecting Eli's ability to threw the deep out.



At this point, the Giants could go 0-16 next season and Eli could throw 50 picks, and there'd still be at least two people here claiming it isn't Eli's fault and to give him a couple more years, he'll eventually get it!


Lol. Your Ivy League degree isnít helping you when reading my post. I have said a billion times this should be Eliís last year. But keep it up.
RE: RE: RE: So now Eli can't succeed because we lack skill players....  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 2:42 pm : link
In comment 14103709 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103705 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 14103687 Tesla said:


Quote:


when all offseason we were raving about all the offensive weapons we have? ESPN ranked our offensive skill players 2nd in the league before the season started.

But now they suck and Eli has nobody to throw to.

Plus it's also the OL's fault.

Plus also Shurmur doesn't know what he's doing.

Plus Eli's missing only a few throws a game...I mean every QB does that, right!

Plus I heard the new equipment guy ordered the wrong size uniform for Eli this year and it's a size too small and it's really affecting Eli's ability to threw the deep out.



At this point, the Giants could go 0-16 next season and Eli could throw 50 picks, and there'd still be at least two people here claiming it isn't Eli's fault and to give him a couple more years, he'll eventually get it!



Lol. Your Ivy League degree isnít helping you when reading my post. I have said a billion times this should be Eliís last year. But keep it up.


Did I say you?

Maybe you should keep up.
once in a while you gotta  
xtian : 10/2/2018 2:43 pm : link
max protect and throw a few bombs. just sayin'.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So now Eli can't succeed because we lack skill players....  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 2:49 pm : link
In comment 14103714 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 14103709 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 14103705 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 14103687 Tesla said:


Quote:


when all offseason we were raving about all the offensive weapons we have? ESPN ranked our offensive skill players 2nd in the league before the season started.

But now they suck and Eli has nobody to throw to.

Plus it's also the OL's fault.

Plus also Shurmur doesn't know what he's doing.

Plus Eli's missing only a few throws a game...I mean every QB does that, right!

Plus I heard the new equipment guy ordered the wrong size uniform for Eli this year and it's a size too small and it's really affecting Eli's ability to threw the deep out.



At this point, the Giants could go 0-16 next season and Eli could throw 50 picks, and there'd still be at least two people here claiming it isn't Eli's fault and to give him a couple more years, he'll eventually get it!



Lol. Your Ivy League degree isnít helping you when reading my post. I have said a billion times this should be Eliís last year. But keep it up.



Did I say you?

Maybe you should keep up.


In all sincerity, if you didnít mean me I owe you an apology. I usually get lumped with Britt for being his biggest defender. While I still defend him, I try to be much more rational in discussions. And when people say I never blame him, I just get frustrated.

I know this should be eliís Last year. But when I read some of the stuff from posters, itís like they legitimately enjoy when he plays poorly.
No they want the Giants to look better playing  
Jimmy Googs : 10/2/2018 3:22 pm : link
and are pissed waiting for the most important piece.

Many of the posts you couch as wanting him to fail are guys baiting the defenders of the faith and you all canít not take the bait.

Grab a parachute before they are gone...
I love how I'm labeled the irrational one.....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:25 pm : link
What was my track record in calling every move last year compared to all of the rational posters here?
RE: So now Eli can't succeed because we lack skill players....  
Les in TO : 10/2/2018 3:27 pm : link
In comment 14103687 Tesla said:
Quote:
when all offseason we were raving about all the offensive weapons we have? ESPN ranked our offensive skill players 2nd in the league before the season started.

But now they suck and Eli has nobody to throw to.

Plus it's also the OL's fault.

Plus also Shurmur doesn't know what he's doing.

Plus Eli's missing only a few throws a game...I mean every QB does that, right!

Plus I heard the new equipment guy ordered the wrong size uniform for Eli this year and it's a size too small and it's really affecting Eli's ability to threw the deep out.
the eli fanboy excuse innovation lab has produced some absolute gems this season.
What you are witnessing is one gigantic, collective....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:28 pm : link
temper tantrum of posters that did not get their way in drafting a QB, so much so that it blinds every other thing the organization does.

It's a mardi gras after we lose, and a ghost town after we win.
And it's never going to stop until Eli leaves town.  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:34 pm : link
Which may be at the end of this year, or gasp in one or two more seasons.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So now Eli can't succeed because we lack skill players....  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 3:34 pm : link
No problem, dep. You're one of the good ones that at least realizes that just because the Giants made the moves they made in the offseason, doesn't necessarily mean they will end up being the right moves, as we're seeing this season...again.

It's been going on 7 seasons of excuses. I'm sure one of these years the decisions this organization makes and gets supported by a few on here will actually pay off and get them in going in the right direction again.

Any year now..
awww, that's sweet.  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:35 pm : link
.
Or,  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 3:37 pm : link
we could find yet another head coach. Fire the GM again. Cut the entire OLine AND all of the skill position players.

Oh, wait. Already did all of that.

What else can we change? Maybe it's the water in Metlife that the players drink. Maybe we can change the water supplier. Yeah, that's the ticket!
We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:39 pm : link
but it's going to be entertaining yet again this offseason when Eli is not cut, or traded.

Even more entertaining if he's restructured and that restructure results in a one year extension, and the massive temper tantrum that will ensue.

That will bother a lot of you guys a lot more than him getting cut, traded, or extended will bother me.
I didn't care if the Giants drafted a QB  
pjcas18 : 10/2/2018 3:40 pm : link
at #2 or a RB or a DE or a S or a OT - I just didn't want them to draft a G - I just felt like at #2 the value wasn't there - some could say the same for RB, but whatever I won't debate that, I don't watch enough college football to pretend to be an expert on the NFL draft like some of you.

However, to claim that the offense is checking down this often, against some low caliber defenses by design is like I said in my first post in the thread, reading into comments something you thought to be true and are twisting words to make it be true.

Shurmur simply said they have called deep pass plays, but they "haven't been there" or "we couldn't get the ball downfield". Ask Beckham privately and what do you think he tells you?

I'm not putting it all on Eli, but to say this is by design vs Eli not contributing to this situation is silly.


The people making excuses for Eli are just as irrational as those making it all about Eli.

I read someone on here claim that the Bears skill players were better than the Giants and that's why Trubisky threw 6 TD's on Sunday.

Allen Robinson
Taylor Gabriel
Anthony Miller
Jordan Howard
Tarik Cohen
Trey Burton

are why Mitch Trubisky threw all over the field Sunday and Eli with:

Odell Beckham
Sterling Shepard
Saquon Barkley
Evan Engram (until Sunday)
Wayne Gallman

don't have enough skill to help Eli.

holy shit.


Nah, it might bother some that actually want to see the  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 3:41 pm : link
team win some games for once. We are actually Giants fans that want to see the team win.

Crazy concept, we know.
Right, and I don't....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:42 pm : link
that's a completely rational take.
RE: I didn't care if the Giants drafted a QB  
ron mexico : 10/2/2018 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14103812 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
at #2 or a RB or a DE or a S or a OT - I just didn't want them to draft a G - I just felt like at #2 the value wasn't there - some could say the same for RB, but whatever I won't debate that, I don't watch enough college football to pretend to be an expert on the NFL draft like some of you.

However, to claim that the offense is checking down this often, against some low caliber defenses by design is like I said in my first post in the thread, reading into comments something you thought to be true and are twisting words to make it be true.

Shurmur simply said they have called deep pass plays, but they "haven't been there" or "we couldn't get the ball downfield". Ask Beckham privately and what do you think he tells you?

I'm not putting it all on Eli, but to say this is by design vs Eli not contributing to this situation is silly.


The people making excuses for Eli are just as irrational as those making it all about Eli.

I read someone on here claim that the Bears skill players were better than the Giants and that's why Trubisky threw 6 TD's on Sunday.

Allen Robinson
Taylor Gabriel
Anthony Miller
Jordan Howard
Tarik Cohen
Trey Burton

are why Mitch Trubisky threw all over the field Sunday and Eli with:

Odell Beckham
Sterling Shepard
Saquon Barkley
Evan Engram (until Sunday)
Wayne Gallman

don't have enough skill to help Eli.

holy shit.



ha! - that one caught my eye as well. I had to look up who this world beater the bears have at TE, was it some rookie stud I never heard of? Nope, a guy in his 4th year with 8-- career receiving yards.
800 career  
ron mexico : 10/2/2018 3:45 pm : link
receiving yards
This thread was a thread created...  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:48 pm : link
to show a correlation between the offensive philosophy in Minnesota, and the offensive philosophy here.

It didn't have to become this. I'll let people re-read the thread to see what steered it in that direction.
RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Tesla : 10/2/2018 3:48 pm : link
In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but it's going to be entertaining yet again this offseason when Eli is not cut, or traded.

Even more entertaining if he's restructured and that restructure results in a one year extension, and the massive temper tantrum that will ensue.

That will bother a lot of you guys a lot more than him getting cut, traded, or extended will bother me.


Dude, you need to take a break and step away from the computer. Your actually expressing your delusional fantasies about the Giants extending Eli after this season....its time to take a little break.
RE: RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:50 pm : link
In comment 14103826 Tesla said:
Quote:
In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but it's going to be entertaining yet again this offseason when Eli is not cut, or traded.

Even more entertaining if he's restructured and that restructure results in a one year extension, and the massive temper tantrum that will ensue.

That will bother a lot of you guys a lot more than him getting cut, traded, or extended will bother me.



Dude, you need to take a break and step away from the computer. Your actually expressing your delusional fantasies about the Giants extending Eli after this season....its time to take a little break.


Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant.
RE: This thread was a thread created...  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 3:50 pm : link
In comment 14103825 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
to show a correlation between the offensive philosophy in Minnesota, and the offensive philosophy here.

It didn't have to become this. I'll let people re-read the thread to see what steered it in that direction.


Interesting. Just a week ago you started a thread celebrating a win over the Texans baiting everyone on the board who shares a different opinion than yourself; proclaiming that Eli/the offense are back and this and that.

Fast forward just one week later; and we need a new theory on why our offense couldn't beat the worst pass defense in the league, at home in perfect weather.

I guess alot can change in a week.
really sick of having to tune in here  
hitdog42 : 10/2/2018 3:53 pm : link
to read about people's emotions and feelings about a player.

here are the facts
the offense sucks
the scheming sucks
the line sucks
and the quarterback sucks

there... can we move on to new topics now-- tx

RE: RE: This thread was a thread created...  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:54 pm : link
In comment 14103830 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 14103825 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


to show a correlation between the offensive philosophy in Minnesota, and the offensive philosophy here.

It didn't have to become this. I'll let people re-read the thread to see what steered it in that direction.



Interesting. Just a week ago you started a thread celebrating a win over the Texans baiting everyone on the board who shares a different opinion than yourself; proclaiming that Eli/the offense are back and this and that.

Fast forward just one week later; and we need a new theory on why our offense couldn't beat the worst pass defense in the league, at home in perfect weather.

I guess alot can change in a week.


I read the comments from the QB and the coach. Then compared them to the comments from the last QB in the system.

I know, much more irrational approach.
RE: RE: RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
ron mexico : 10/2/2018 3:55 pm : link
In comment 14103828 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103826 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but it's going to be entertaining yet again this offseason when Eli is not cut, or traded.

Even more entertaining if he's restructured and that restructure results in a one year extension, and the massive temper tantrum that will ensue.

That will bother a lot of you guys a lot more than him getting cut, traded, or extended will bother me.



Dude, you need to take a break and step away from the computer. Your actually expressing your delusional fantasies about the Giants extending Eli after this season....its time to take a little break.



Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant.


that was not exactly going out on a limb. All you had to do was look at his contract and dead cap figure.

I don't remember a ton of people saying Eli played his last game outside of the week between when he was benched and Mac got fired.
I'm done with this now.  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 3:56 pm : link
We'll see what's what at the end of the season.
RE: RE: RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Tesla : 10/2/2018 3:56 pm : link
In comment 14103828 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14103826 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant.


Did you also not spend the offseason bragging about how this was going to be Eli's revenge tour? Even dep distinguishes himself by saying at least he's not at your level of "fandom" when it comes to Eli, and he's right.

I defy you to find one other poster who believes right now that Eli is going to get an EXTENSION after this season. Try and find one.
That's nice.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 3:57 pm : link
Except for the fact that the struggles of this offense/QB/Line (everyone) goes back far beyond the 4 games of this season. This goes back 3-4 years now. What were the excuses back then?

Like everyone else on this thread has said. It's just more excuses. I'm sure there will be more next season as well when we're working on 8 seasons of losing and failure.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14103841 Tesla said:
Quote:
In comment 14103828 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14103826 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant.



Did you also not spend the offseason bragging about how this was going to be Eli's revenge tour? Even dep distinguishes himself by saying at least he's not at your level of "fandom" when it comes to Eli, and he's right.

I defy you to find one other poster who believes right now that Eli is going to get an EXTENSION after this season. Try and find one.


Sounds like a challenge... I could, but I don't want to entertain you.
Just because the Giants make a decision on Eli,  
Keith : 10/2/2018 4:01 pm : link
doesn't mean they were right. Just like coming into the year with Eli as our starter. Just like drafting a RB at #2. You can make a case that they've done more wrong than right with this new regime.

Britt, I can appreciate your love for Eli. I too am a huge fan, but you are letting that fandom blind you from reality. Great QB's dont lose as much as he has in recent years. Great QB's don't fail to score 30 pts for 3 seasons. Great QB's don't continue to make poor decisions and poor throws againts poor defenses.

The defense of Eli is getting crazy now. Multiple coordinators, multiple coaches, now multiple GM's, a slew of WR's/TE's/RB's and OL have all been to blame and yet here Eli is blameless to some. Its hard to fathom. Kinda shocking. I'm about as big of a fan as anyone else(outside BRitt and dep) and I can see it. He is never going to win on the Giants. I said it last year and I'll keep saying it. It's over.
I think the multiple coaches and coordinators things is overstated  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 4:03 pm : link
McAdoo. And McAdoo was his own OC, so it's still one guy.
That's it. That's the only coach not named Coughlin or Gilbride that took a shot with him and failed.

Book is still out on new regime.
Like I said, we'll see what happens.  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 4:07 pm : link
Contrary to what it feels like on here right now, there is a LOT of football left to play this season.
RE: Just because the Giants make a decision on Eli,  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14103851 Keith said:
Quote:
doesn't mean they were right. Just like coming into the year with Eli as our starter. Just like drafting a RB at #2. You can make a case that they've done more wrong than right with this new regime.

Britt, I can appreciate your love for Eli. I too am a huge fan, but you are letting that fandom blind you from reality. Great QB's dont lose as much as he has in recent years. Great QB's don't fail to score 30 pts for 3 seasons. Great QB's don't continue to make poor decisions and poor throws againts poor defenses.

The defense of Eli is getting crazy now. Multiple coordinators, multiple coaches, now multiple GM's, a slew of WR's/TE's/RB's and OL have all been to blame and yet here Eli is blameless to some. Its hard to fathom. Kinda shocking. I'm about as big of a fan as anyone else(outside BRitt and dep) and I can see it. He is never going to win on the Giants. I said it last year and I'll keep saying it. It's over.


Yep. And let's be honest, if this was anyother offense/QB in the league that hadn't scored 30 points since 2015, these guys would be highly critical of that offense and QB, without a doubt. I mean, how could you not be? This is an era of NFL football where high-scoring offenses are actually *encouraged* by the NFL these days with some of these rules.

You almost have to try NOT to score 30 points once in three years to actually achieve that in today's NFL. It's downright scary.

The OLine has been changed up multiple times. Even Flowers has now been finally benched. Multiple, new, heavily talented and praised skill position players all over the offense. New HC's, OC's, GM. Literally EVERYTHING has been changed at least once.

I'm sure some would rather change everything else up once again though than admit that the QB has a decent amount of a role in all of this, though.

Well,  
Keith : 10/2/2018 4:08 pm : link
this year certainly looks a lot like last year, no? I think most people would agree that its probably not going to get much better this season. The dude is 37 and seems frightened when he's in the pocket. He's continually staring at the rush rather than the routes down the field. How is that gonna change?
RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
bw in dc : 10/2/2018 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but it's going to be entertaining yet again this offseason when Eli is not cut, or traded.

Even more entertaining if he's restructured and that restructure results in a one year extension, and the massive temper tantrum that will ensue.

That will bother a lot of you guys a lot more than him getting cut, traded, or extended will bother me.


I regret to say it, but you may be right here.

This organization has done an endless list of stupid things the last five years. So your hypothetical coming to reality would just add to the list.

RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/2/2018 4:20 pm : link
In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but it's going to be entertaining yet again this offseason when Eli is not cut, or traded.

Even more entertaining if he's restructured and that restructure results in a one year extension, and the massive temper tantrum that will ensue.

That will bother a lot of you guys a lot more than him getting cut, traded, or extended will bother me.

I sincerely doubt that. But you're back to pretending to be the balanced, unbiased poster again this week I see. I'm sure we'll see your true colors when Eli has his other good game this season.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 4:35 pm : link
Really? So, the argument now from some of you guys is that he STILL doesn't have enough weapons to work with?

It's like until we have an elite, top 3 NFL OL and all-pro players at every skill spot, you'll still find ways to claim that he's being undermined by his situation.

The excuse-making is just reaching ridiculous levels now.

Beckham and Barkley alone is more than a lot of QB's in this league have. Shepard is a very good slot WR. The lack of talent argument worked last year - it doesn't work now.

Are the Saints' weapons that much better? Thomas/Kamara and Beckham/Barkley should be a wash. The only two guys on that roster with more than 10 receptions between those two are Ted Ginn (12) and Ben Watson (13)

Yet, New Orleans is a top 5 scoring offense so far.

So, how is Drew Brees managing with this type of cast that is apparently too poor to succeed with for Eli?
Just for the record  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 4:42 pm : link
I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, Iíd be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough.

As far as OL tho, we arenít even bad. We are worse than that.
I think it's time to accept it's over for Eli here  
Go Terps : 10/2/2018 4:43 pm : link
That isn't simply because Eli can't play anymore - though his performance is definitely a factor. There are several issues at play, not the least of which is the idiocy of hiring (again) a coordinator that is married to a system that doesn't suit what Eli does well.

Eli should be throwing the ball intermediate to deep, and outside the numbers. It should often be coming off play action and 5- and 7-step drops. That isn't happening in part because the OL is shit and in part because the offense isn't designed for it. It's also not happening in part because it's an antiquated way to play offensive football.

But the "why" doesn't really matter. It's over. For all intents and purposes it's been over for Eli as a Giant since 2012. Everything since has been epilogue.

It's time to move the fuck on.
RE: .  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/2/2018 4:44 pm : link
In comment 14103888 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Really? So, the argument now from some of you guys is that he STILL doesn't have enough weapons to work with?

It's like until we have an elite, top 3 NFL OL and all-pro players at every skill spot, you'll still find ways to claim that he's being undermined by his situation.

The excuse-making is just reaching ridiculous levels now.


This should be a familiar tune. The same type of excuse making was made for Tom Coughlin, with people bending reality to make him out to be an innocent victim during Jerry Reese's reign of terror.
RE: Just for the record  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 4:48 pm : link
In comment 14103899 dep026 said:
Quote:
I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, Iíd be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough.

As far as OL tho, we arenít even bad. We are worse than that.


A lot of teams are, though. If we cant move the ball with anything other than an elite offensive line, we chose the wrong direction to go in QB-wise.

It's a losing proposition if you have a QB who can't do anything with anything other than ideal surrounding conditions.

The QB has to be able to make off-schedule plays. All of the best QB's in this league are able to do that. Hell, Patrick Mahomes basically threw a chest pass left-handed while he was falling down last night for a completion.

We need to stop chasing the "right situation" for Eli because we're literally pissing into the wind.
You are spouting off that you have been right every step of the way  
Jimmy Googs : 10/2/2018 4:49 pm : link
regarding how things played out with Eli?

Did you miss the fact that we still completely suck at Offense and are 1-4 and heading nowhere for yet another season.

This is groundhog day and you want to take victory laps for predicting a poor decision that has wasted another year of football for this franchise and its fans.

Did you even wonder if posters gave different views because they were praying that if it went down this way it could/would be the very disaster it is...ever?
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 4:50 pm : link
In comment 14103907 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14103888 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Really? So, the argument now from some of you guys is that he STILL doesn't have enough weapons to work with?

It's like until we have an elite, top 3 NFL OL and all-pro players at every skill spot, you'll still find ways to claim that he's being undermined by his situation.

The excuse-making is just reaching ridiculous levels now.



This should be a familiar tune. The same type of excuse making was made for Tom Coughlin, with people bending reality to make him out to be an innocent victim during Jerry Reese's reign of terror.


There's just no give from this side sometimes. And yes, it goes both ways - we have people who want to lay ALL of the blame at the feet of the QB.

But it's just constant excuse making and "wait and see" over and over and over.

I'm not sure what it will take for a few of you guys to admit that maybe it really is over for Eli here and that it's time to move on. No more extensions, "going for it", etc.

We need to start planning for life after Eli... like, yesterday.
RE: RE: Just for the record  
pjcas18 : 10/2/2018 4:50 pm : link
In comment 14103916 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14103899 dep026 said:


Quote:


I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, Iíd be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough.

As far as OL tho, we arenít even bad. We are worse than that.



A lot of teams are, though. If we cant move the ball with anything other than an elite offensive line, we chose the wrong direction to go in QB-wise.

It's a losing proposition if you have a QB who can't do anything with anything other than ideal surrounding conditions.

The QB has to be able to make off-schedule plays. All of the best QB's in this league are able to do that. Hell, Patrick Mahomes basically threw a chest pass left-handed while he was falling down last night for a completion.

We need to stop chasing the "right situation" for Eli because we're literally pissing into the wind.


I don't think you mean literally there.
RE: RE: RE: .  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/2/2018 4:52 pm : link
In comment 14103921 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14103907 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 14103888 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Really? So, the argument now from some of you guys is that he STILL doesn't have enough weapons to work with?

It's like until we have an elite, top 3 NFL OL and all-pro players at every skill spot, you'll still find ways to claim that he's being undermined by his situation.

The excuse-making is just reaching ridiculous levels now.



This should be a familiar tune. The same type of excuse making was made for Tom Coughlin, with people bending reality to make him out to be an innocent victim during Jerry Reese's reign of terror.



There's just no give from this side sometimes. And yes, it goes both ways - we have people who want to lay ALL of the blame at the feet of the QB.

But it's just constant excuse making and "wait and see" over and over and over.

I'm not sure what it will take for a few of you guys to admit that maybe it really is over for Eli here and that it's time to move on. No more extensions, "going for it", etc.

We need to start planning for life after Eli... like, yesterday.


Look, we had at least one user admitting to crying into his soup that Eli was benched last year.

Some people aren't going to let go until he's out there like a punch drunk boxer on fumes. They'll swear he's got one more run in him if he can just get an OL.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 4:55 pm : link
Sadly, you're right Hammer. Sentimentality is playing a big role in a lot of opinions here and this isn't always an objective discussion.

I understand why - but we need to be honest about this at some point. We can only re-shuffle things around the QB so many times before we keep arriving at the same place like this.
RE: RE: Just for the record  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 4:56 pm : link
In comment 14103916 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14103899 dep026 said:


Quote:


I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, Iíd be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough.

As far as OL tho, we arenít even bad. We are worse than that.



A lot of teams are, though. If we cant move the ball with anything other than an elite offensive line, we chose the wrong direction to go in QB-wise.

It's a losing proposition if you have a QB who can't do anything with anything other than ideal surrounding conditions.

The QB has to be able to make off-schedule plays. All of the best QB's in this league are able to do that. Hell, Patrick Mahomes basically threw a chest pass left-handed while he was falling down last night for a completion.

We need to stop chasing the "right situation" for Eli because we're literally pissing into the wind.


I didnít ask for an elite offensive line. How about an average one? Most team have average or better OLs.

Think of it this way Arc.... do you want barkley and a new QB behind this OL for the rest of their careers? I mean we are looking at already needing 3 starters for next year already.

Whenever Eli is done. This week, next month or next year... the next QB deserves A LOT better than what we have there now.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 5:02 pm : link
Believe it or not, what we have now might be closer to "average" than we think. NFL OL's are bad right now. They've been bad. You have to be able to overcome that to at least a small degree.

I didn't watch a game on Sunday where I felt like Eli constantly had no chance to make plays.

The protection against Dallas was different. Want to say the line was too poor for most QB's to do anything behind? I'll buy it in a game like that.

Not Sunday, though. If that's not good enough, we're just not going to be able to provide for Eli what he needs to succeed.
dep  
Go Terps : 10/2/2018 5:05 pm : link
You're right about the offensive line. It's been a fucking joke, and the team destroyed the second half of Eli Manning's career through incompetence both in the front office and in the coaching staff starting around 2013. That's a hard, shitty truth to accept. I view Eli as a tragic figure. I named my kid after the fucking guy - to see how his career has concluded angers me as much as anything in sports could.

That's the first element of the situation. The second element is what should be done going forward. The first element should not inform the second. Mapping out the future requires complete objectivity. We're no longer talking about Eli Manning...we're talking about a 37 year old QB that costs $22M against the cap, and under whom the offense is not fully functioning.

If I'm running the Giants I am not starting the 2019 season with Eli Manning on the roster. If he's the QB we are not moving in a positive direction for the future. We'd be better off going with Lauletta and hoping he develops into anything.

It is over.
I remember when I posted this thread...  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 5:21 pm : link
after the first seven games on McAdoo's tenure.

Same crowd jumping all over me....

Quote:
Points for through 7 games last year:
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:18 am : link
26
20
32
24
30
7
27
166 Points for through 7 games.

Ended up the season with 420, good for 6th in the NFL. Defense was the problem last year.

Points for through 7 games this year:

20
16
27
10
16
27
17
133 Point for through 7 games

Good for 25th in the NFL currently.


Quote:
Last year's MO was that the offense was going to score a lot of points
Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:34 am : link
and the defense was either going to hold or lose it for us in the 4th.

This year's MO is that the defense will keep us in it, and we don't know what the offense will do, if anything.

Through seven games last year, the offense broke 20 points 6 times.

Through seven games this year, the offense broke 20 points only 3 times. That's not good enough, or a sustainable model, to win games in today's NFL.


Guess what, shortly after that post we went on a Giants record streak of 8 games spanning two seasons of not beating 20 points.

I also mentioned Flaherty getting fired on that thread, for not getting along with Flowers, and how Flowers had performed better for Flaherty, but again, just delusional posting from a "Coughlin lover".
Link - ( New Window )
I pointed out that 20 point barrier before it was ever a...  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 5:25 pm : link
"thing". Check the date. Proof is all right there.

But I was a delusional Coughlin apologist and we were 4-3! We were winning! It didn't matter!
It's not about....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 5:29 pm : link
"being right" about a player or coach.

It's noticing trends and observations bigger than one player. It's trying to get a read on the overall organization and philosophy.

I think the proof is in the pudding right now that I've had a pretty damn good read on things, whether you agree with the organization on them or not, on what moves they were going to make and their reasoning behind them.

So call me delusional if you want.
I pointed out another correlation in this thread....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 5:30 pm : link
that really had little to do with Eli other than he is the guy running the system.

The correlation is with Shurmur, and what he's teaching offensively.
So weird.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 5:31 pm : link
During the summer it was all about Eli kicking his and taking names coming right up this season. Now it's 'philosophy' and 'be patient' and 'trends.'
*kicking ass*  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 5:31 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Diver_Down : 10/2/2018 5:33 pm : link
In comment 14103841 Tesla said:
Quote:
In comment 14103828 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14103826 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant.



Did you also not spend the offseason bragging about how this was going to be Eli's revenge tour? Even dep distinguishes himself by saying at least he's not at your level of "fandom" when it comes to Eli, and he's right.

I defy you to find one other poster who believes right now that Eli is going to get an EXTENSION after this season. Try and find one.


I ignored this thread not because Britt started it, but because the 300+ posts. I knew it would be a bitch fest. But I'm bored and began to read. You want one poster? Here I am. I'm probably a bit further in Eli's camp than Britt. I've mentioned a possible extension last year, over the summer, and recently just today on another thread. You can even search through the archives when I advocated that Eli should hold out 2 years ago. Gatorade Dunk and I went back and forth and I said then that it was more likely that Eli gets a new contract. Gatorade Dunk bet me at the time (no specific terms other than a simple I'm right/wrong).
Considering all the talk team management did about Eli this summer  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/2/2018 5:41 pm : link
Getting a short extension done with Eli would be about as shocking as beige paint. Part of me feels like elements of ownership have been on an apology tour since the benching.
RE: I love how I'm labeled the irrational one.....  
christian : 10/2/2018 6:01 pm : link
In comment 14103783 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
What was my track record in calling every move last year compared to all of the rational posters here?


These conversations are always difficult with you because of the personal back slapping and pleasure you take when you've guessed what the organization will do.

But guessing what this organization will do is much different than what will work.

I'd always wager the Maras to do the loyal thing, especially for characters from the recent Super Bowl era. Doesn't mean it's the right or winning thing to do.

Does being right make up for watching this crap team they are fielding and watching Manning get his shit kicked in weekly?
RE: It's not about....  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 6:04 pm : link
In comment 14103981 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
"being right" about a player or coach.

It's noticing trends and observations bigger than one player. It's trying to get a read on the overall organization and philosophy.

I think the proof is in the pudding right now that I've had a pretty damn good read on things, whether you agree with the organization on them or not, on what moves they were going to make and their reasoning behind them.

So call me delusional if you want.


Are you sure it's not about being right?

You're digging up 2 year old posts of yours and seem to often go out of your way to remind people what your stances were from years past.

If anything you've predicted even remotely comes into fruition, you're the first one to remind everyone by either pulling up an old thread or starting a new one as a reminder.

Not trying to be a jerk, but I do think you care about being right because your posting patterns make it pretty clear.
It's not about being right....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 6:12 pm : link
It's about having examples where I was piled on and called delusional only to have it come to fruition.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 6:16 pm : link
So, it's about being right.
Britt  
Go Terps : 10/2/2018 6:21 pm : link
You've been good at predicting what the Giants will do, but not so good at predicting the results of their actions. You thought we'd blow out Jacksonville and Dallas. You thought the offense would bounce back once the scourge of McAdoo (who looks less dumb by the minute) and Reese were eliminated.

We all would be best served by accepting what this team has let itself become: a mismanaged disaster with no overall plan.
RE: .  
jcn56 : 10/2/2018 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14104041 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
So, it's about being right.


Of course it is. And everyone else is just mad at not drafting a QB, nothing to do with the fact that the team is in shambles now.
Okay, dudes....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 6:30 pm : link
you can pile on me, call me delusional, call me irrational, call me an apologist, and Eli lover, a Coughlin lover...

But when I get it right, it's just about me being right. Got it.

You know, when the Giants lose, we all lose, right?

Pointing out the 20 point deficiency wasn't done because I wanted to be right. I was trying to figure out why.

Just like I am now. But all you guys do is want to discredit the Eli Apologist.
This thread was about the corelations I was noticing...  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 6:34 pm : link
in Shurmur's, Eli's, and Keenum's statements regarding the offensive philosophy. It was not an Eli excuse or apologist thread. It was trying to figure out why we weren't passing deep.

That thread was about why we weren't scoring 20 points, and the difference between the two offenses over an offseason and transition from one HC to another that was supposed to be done for offensive continuity. It wasn't a Coughlin apologist thread.

Both thread were improperly turned into something they were not. Not by me.
Britt  
Go Terps : 10/2/2018 6:38 pm : link
You may be right (though I'm not sure)...but pointing out the idiosyncrasies of Shurmur's offense is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

.  
arcarsenal : 10/2/2018 6:40 pm : link
I haven't called you any of those things. I think my arguments today were completely non-personal and logical. I've done nothing but offer my own opinions on the situation. I didn't resort fo any personal attacks with any poster here.

I just think you absolutely care about being right.

You came up with this whole prediction/scenario thing about how the Redskins were going to handle RG3 after he got hurt a few years back and literally every step of the way, you made sure to remind everyone what your prediction was.

You most certainly care about your track record here when it comes to forecasting the way things will play out both with the Giants and elsewhere - in fact, much of your posting revolves around it whether you've noticed that or not.

I'm not attacking you or calling you names. Just my take. And I think you're getting so defensive because part of you knows it's true.
I'm a huge eli  
crick n NC : 10/2/2018 6:40 pm : link
Fan, that doesn't mean I value him over the team. I'm a fan because it's been a pleasure to have him as a NY Giant. I understand the good possibility that he is cooked mentally from years of not having protection. I'm actually ok if that is the case, it sucks, but it's what happens. I will say if this it for Manning and the giants pick high again it will be exciting at least for me. They got a really good player in Saquon this year, and if this season goes way south they could be in position to grab a top qb adding him to some good pieces ready.
I think it was toomer  
idiotsavant : 10/2/2018 6:55 pm : link
Who commented to the effect that

"he and Manning would repeatedly practice a single play in their own time. Ten extra times. Twenty extra times. Get the timing down."

Beck's. Latimer. The Shep's, EE., these players might want to stop expecting some pie in the sky ideal (if thats what they are doing) and put those type of reps in with the QB . especially on those long routes. Manning always seemed to need that trust level and is more int adverse now.
I will always love Eli,  
Mr. Bungle : 10/2/2018 6:56 pm : link
and I support drafting Barkley.

But in a league where guys like Andy Dalton, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Mitchell Trubisky can put up pinball machine numbers, I don't think it's too much to expect the Giants offense to move the ball in the air consistently well, especially with one of the three most electrifying wide receivers in the game.

Paying a 38-year-old $19 million in 2019 to continue leading a long-struggling offense will make exactly zero sense.

This thing need to end. See what Lauletta can do and, if necessary, get someone else in here in the spring.
They say when...  
bw in dc : 10/2/2018 6:59 pm : link
when someone says itís not about the money, everyone knows itís about the money.

Apply that here.

When someone says itís not about being right, everyone knows thatís exactly what itís about...
RE: I think it was toomer  
Diver_Down : 10/2/2018 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14104083 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
Who commented to the effect that

"he and Manning would repeatedly practice a single play in their own time. Ten extra times. Twenty extra times. Get the timing down."

Beck's. Latimer. The Shep's, EE., these players might want to stop expecting some pie in the sky ideal (if thats what they are doing) and put those type of reps in with the QB . especially on those long routes. Manning always seemed to need that trust level and is more int adverse now.


Are you suggesting that OBJ would be best served to participate in Manning's Pitch/Catch session at Duke?
RE: This thread was about the corelations I was noticing...  
christian : 10/2/2018 7:13 pm : link
In comment 14104061 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
in Shurmur's, Eli's, and Keenum's statements regarding the offensive philosophy. It was not an Eli excuse or apologist thread. It was trying to figure out why we weren't passing deep.

That thread was about why we weren't scoring 20 points, and the difference between the two offenses over an offseason and transition from one HC to another that was supposed to be done for offensive continuity. It wasn't a Coughlin apologist thread.

Both thread were improperly turned into something they were not. Not by me.


Oh come on dude -- this thread has hundreds of posts -- the vast majority good football chat. This thread went sideways at exactly 3:25 pm:

Quote:
I love how I'm labeled the irrational one ... What was my track record in calling every move last year compared to all of the rational posters here?


And this gem:

Quote:
What you are witnessing is one gigantic, collective temper tantrum of posters that did not get their way in drafting a QB, so much so that it blinds every other thing the organization does.

It's a mardi gras after we lose, and a ghost town after we win.
Shouldn't we all have a little accountability here?  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 7:19 pm : link
I mean, instead of just verbal diarrhea after every synapse fires in our head?

Should we want to revisit things down the line?

I just don't get it, I guess.
The vast majority of this post was good football chat?  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 7:21 pm : link
I don't see that.

How many posts actually addressed what the thread was about? Not many.
Just fuck it....  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 7:22 pm : link
It's really a big whatever from me.

This hasn't been a discussion, it's been an argument akin to a political discussion. There was never a discussion. Just two sides yelling at each other.
excuse me, political argument.  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 7:23 pm : link
Because we know those definitely aren't discussions.
I hope Eli lights it the fuck up, because that means the Giants...  
Britt in VA : 10/2/2018 7:23 pm : link
are doing well.

But you sure as fuck won't hear a peep from me about it from here on out.
Arc mentioned it perfectly above  
figgy2989 : 10/2/2018 7:24 pm : link
It is more important for you to be ďrightĒ on an anonymous message board.

If this board bothers you so much as the majority of the posters have an opposite opinion, maybe you need to take a break for a while. Not passing judgement, but arenít you a teacher? How do you find the time everyday to get into these debates?
Did you  
ajr2456 : 10/2/2018 7:31 pm : link
Not spend the offseason calling people who pointed out flaws and decline in Eli delusional?

Get a grip.
RE: Just fuck it....  
Diver_Down : 10/2/2018 7:34 pm : link
In comment 14104114 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
It's really a big whatever from me.

This hasn't been a discussion, it's been an argument akin to a political discussion. There was never a discussion. Just two sides yelling at each other.


Well, not to say I was right, but it was just a bitch fest. Just saying...
I'm an Eli fan,  
Photoguy : 10/2/2018 7:39 pm : link
but reasonable enough not to be an apologist, and it kills me to see him fail, because when he fails, the offense fails. Whatever the problems are, they need to be addressed and corrected. Nothing else matters. I looked at this year as a 'bridge' year for Gettleman and Shurmer to establish a foundation going forward. I really think they viewed Eli as part of that bridge to get to the next era of Giants football.

Nothing's working much right now, but I have faith that things will work out.......maybe not this year, but in the next couple years. I'm not anxious to get into a head coach a year deal. I'm solidly behind this GM/HC team.

JMHO
RE: RE: RE: Just for the record  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/2/2018 7:46 pm : link
In comment 14103934 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14103916 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14103899 dep026 said:


Quote:


I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, Iíd be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough.

As far as OL tho, we arenít even bad. We are worse than that.



A lot of teams are, though. If we cant move the ball with anything other than an elite offensive line, we chose the wrong direction to go in QB-wise.

It's a losing proposition if you have a QB who can't do anything with anything other than ideal surrounding conditions.

The QB has to be able to make off-schedule plays. All of the best QB's in this league are able to do that. Hell, Patrick Mahomes basically threw a chest pass left-handed while he was falling down last night for a completion.

We need to stop chasing the "right situation" for Eli because we're literally pissing into the wind.



I didnít ask for an elite offensive line. How about an average one? Most team have average or better OLs.

Think of it this way Arc.... do you want barkley and a new QB behind this OL for the rest of their careers? I mean we are looking at already needing 3 starters for next year already.

Whenever Eli is done. This week, next month or next year... the next QB deserves A LOT better than what we have there now.

The problem is that Eli needs the exact same supporting cast as a rookie QB would, but costs 5x what a rookie QB would cost. A franchise QB with a franchise QB price tag needs to be able to overcome some roster weakness created by his own cap number. Eli, seemingly, no longer can do that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/2/2018 7:51 pm : link
In comment 14103987 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14103841 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103828 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14103826 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant.



Did you also not spend the offseason bragging about how this was going to be Eli's revenge tour? Even dep distinguishes himself by saying at least he's not at your level of "fandom" when it comes to Eli, and he's right.

I defy you to find one other poster who believes right now that Eli is going to get an EXTENSION after this season. Try and find one.



I ignored this thread not because Britt started it, but because the 300+ posts. I knew it would be a bitch fest. But I'm bored and began to read. You want one poster? Here I am. I'm probably a bit further in Eli's camp than Britt. I've mentioned a possible extension last year, over the summer, and recently just today on another thread. You can even search through the archives when I advocated that Eli should hold out 2 years ago. Gatorade Dunk and I went back and forth and I said then that it was more likely that Eli gets a new contract. Gatorade Dunk bet me at the time (no specific terms other than a simple I'm right/wrong).

Ah, the good old days! D_D, we so rarely agree but I do always respect your take. Even though you're stone cold wrong about an extension.
Britt  
Go Terps : 10/2/2018 7:55 pm : link
Do you know how much shit I catch for some of the things I post here?

We all want Eli to succeed. But it's a crucial distinction between what we want and what is. Last night on the MNF thread I got called a whiny bitch by a couple posters unwilling to accept that the Giants are shit, and should be called out for being shit at every possible opportunity. The last 6 years with this team have been dominated by words like "if", "hope", and "maybe". "If we get the OL fixed..." "I hope X matures..." "Maybe we get lucky with injuries..."

I'm tired of hearing those words associated with the Giants. I have no time or use for faith. I want a plan. I want to see a plan for how this horseshit is going to stop. But I'm not seeing a plan. I'm seeing more "if", "hope", and "maybe".

There's a great Churchill quote, "If you're going through hell, keep going." We're in hell right now, but we aren't going anywhere.
RE: The Broncos were killing the Chiefs cover 2 last night  
djm : 10/2/2018 7:56 pm : link
In comment 14103074 arniefez said:
Quote:
It was fun to watch. That game was more entertaining than the last 20 Giant games combined.


And the broncos lost.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We may win some more, and we may lose some more....  
Diver_Down : 10/2/2018 7:57 pm : link
In comment 14104146 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14103987 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14103841 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103828 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14103826 Tesla said:


Quote:


In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant.



Did you also not spend the offseason bragging about how this was going to be Eli's revenge tour? Even dep distinguishes himself by saying at least he's not at your level of "fandom" when it comes to Eli, and he's right.

I defy you to find one other poster who believes right now that Eli is going to get an EXTENSION after this season. Try and find one.



I ignored this thread not because Britt started it, but because the 300+ posts. I knew it would be a bitch fest. But I'm bored and began to read. You want one poster? Here I am. I'm probably a bit further in Eli's camp than Britt. I've mentioned a possible extension last year, over the summer, and recently just today on another thread. You can even search through the archives when I advocated that Eli should hold out 2 years ago. Gatorade Dunk and I went back and forth and I said then that it was more likely that Eli gets a new contract. Gatorade Dunk bet me at the time (no specific terms other than a simple I'm right/wrong).


Ah, the good old days! D_D, we so rarely agree but I do always respect your take. Even though you're stone cold wrong about an extension.


And I respect you. Again not to underscore the premise of this thread (or not), but I have a strong suspicion that I'm right. DG loves Eli. When we were going back and forth then, Reese was in charge and I'll admit, it didn't look like my prediction would be correct.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Just for the record  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 7:58 pm : link
In comment 14104142 Gatorade Dunk
Quote:


The problem is that Eli needs the exact same supporting cast as a rookie QB would, but costs 5x what a rookie QB would cost. A franchise QB with a franchise QB price tag needs to be able to overcome some roster weakness created by his own cap number. Eli, seemingly, no longer can do that.


Hence why 2019 the giants should have a new QB. Iíve felt that for awhile now.
The sad part was that Britt was right about what DG would do  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/2/2018 8:09 pm : link
And that us fans were right about what should have been done. Thatís some soul crushing thoughts as a fan when we outmaneuver the GM.

Since we were right Eliís last year or years here will be rooted in futility. Iím losing hope this FO has any clue at all now.
RE: Just for the record  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:13 pm : link
In comment 14104151 dep026 said:
Quote:

Hence why 2019 the giants should have a new QB. Iíve felt that for awhile now.


Dep: I think DG and PS thought the Oline would be improved substantially this year, finish the job next year. The efforts they've made have not borne fruit...yet.

They drafted the best guy in the draft, grabbed Lauletta, cut Webb and are likely heavily scouting QBs now. Unless they go ga-ga for Lauletta, one will be drafted next year or obtained from the Vikings.

Then you have Barkley & good young QB prospect.
Relax. It's gunna happen.

RE: The sad part was that Britt was right about what DG would do  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:16 pm : link
In comment 14104163 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
And that us fans were right about what should have been done.


Dammit Jim! You realize that you and some other fans have now claimed they know more about scouting QBs and team building than DG & Co?

If serious it's laughable.
...  
christian : 10/2/2018 8:20 pm : link
This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.
Itís not about scouting  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/2/2018 8:22 pm : link
Itís knowing that Trotting Eli out here wasnít heading anywhere. It was time to move on and they had the draft capital to do it without paying an exorbitant price. That shit is rare. #2 pick in a QB rich draft. Looked obvious to me.
RE: ...  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:23 pm : link
In comment 14104171 christian said:
Quote:
This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.


Logical takes, Mr. Christian? I'm about ready to get my prescription pad and write out scripts for 1/2 the folks on this thread!
RE: RE: ...  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/2/2018 8:26 pm : link
In comment 14104175 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 14104171 christian said:


Quote:


This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.



Logical takes, Mr. Christian? I'm about ready to get my prescription pad and write out scripts for 1/2 the folks on this thread!


If you've been watching this offense for the past few years; yes, completely logical takes based in reality.

This offense hasn't scored 30 point in 3 years. A league that is borderline BEGGING teams to score as many points as possible. Think about that.

Some folks need to open up their eyes. It's not 2011 anymore.
RE: Itís not about scouting  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:26 pm : link
In comment 14104174 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Itís knowing that Trotting Eli out here wasnít heading anywhere. It was time to move on and they had the draft capital to do it without paying an exorbitant price. That shit is rare. #2 pick in a QB rich draft. Looked obvious to me.


I think Eli's issues are 100% Oline related. For you to be right here, either Darnold or Rosen need to become franchise type QBs. (Please don't mention Allen or I will have lost respect for you.)
In all honesty I wanted to trade Eli  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/2/2018 8:27 pm : link
Not because I wanted high draft picks but I thought he deserved a shot at wining a ring. I thought in Denver with those weapons and that defense, heíd have a shot.

Him returning here I thought theyíd be mediocre, whatís the point? To win 6-8 games?

Blah doesnít matter anymore, were in shits creek now.
RE: ...  
dep026 : 10/2/2018 8:27 pm : link
In comment 14104171 christian said:
Quote:
This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.


Someone said I was logical in regards to Eli. Oh fuck yeah!!! Iíve turned the corner.

But one thing I will note. I went back and forth with a few people this thread and I noticed one thing. Lot of disagreeing.... nothing that came close to crossing the line or personal. Kudos to all.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
mrvax : 10/2/2018 8:29 pm : link
In comment 14104178 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:

If you've been watching this offense for the past few years; yes, completely logical takes based in reality.

This offense hasn't scored 30 point in 3 years. A league that is borderline BEGGING teams to score as many points as possible. Think about that.

Some folks need to open up their eyes. It's not 2011 anymore.


My take is that the Oline cannot pass or run block year after year. If the Giants need big bucks to fix it, yes, cut Eli next year and do whatever it takes to buy the fix with that savings. Then get some kid QB on the cheap. We are set for skill players on offense.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 10/2/2018 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14104181 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14104171 christian said:


Quote:


This has been classic BBI. On this thread you have Gene and me agreeing, Gatorade and Diver agreeing, and plenty of logical takes.



Someone said I was logical in regards to Eli. Oh fuck yeah!!! Iíve turned the corner.

But one thing I will note. I went back and forth with a few people this thread and I noticed one thing. Lot of disagreeing.... nothing that came close to crossing the line or personal. Kudos to all.


And Dep was accused of being logical regarding Manning.

Which to be fair, you've been pretty right on the mark the last several months.
RE: I'm an Eli fan,  
mako J : 10/2/2018 10:22 pm : link
In comment 14104136 Photoguy said:
Quote:
but reasonable enough not to be an apologist, and it kills me to see him fail, because when he fails, the offense fails. Whatever the problems are, they need to be addressed and corrected. Nothing else matters. I looked at this year as a 'bridge' year for Gettleman and Shurmer to establish a foundation going forward. I really think they viewed Eli as part of that bridge to get to the next era of Giants football.

Nothing's working much right now, but I have faith that things will work out.......maybe not this year, but in the next couple years. I'm not anxious to get into a head coach a year deal. I'm solidly behind this GM/HC team.

JMHO


+1
RE: Itís not about scouting  
Jimmy Googs : 10/2/2018 10:29 pm : link
In comment 14104174 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Itís knowing that Trotting Eli out here wasnít heading anywhere. It was time to move on and they had the draft capital to do it without paying an exorbitant price. That shit is rare. #2 pick in a QB rich draft. Looked obvious to me.


Agree with you Jim. Happy as hell to have SB as he is the goods and a nice asset going forward. But have always intimated the real restructuring of this team will not occur until we have a new guy under center.

2017 and 2018 seasons really have served no other purpose than drafting a few chess pieces for the next stage of this franchise. Other than that, it has been a huge waste of time...



.  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:36 am : link
Quote:
Ralph Vacchiano

Verified account

@RVacchianoSNY
Following Following @RVacchianoSNY
More
Giants coach Pat Shurmur to the teamís website: ďThatís a false narrative that we werenít trying to throw the ball down the field. Thatís a false narrative, and if for some reason, they legislate against it, we have to check the ball down, keep the chains moving.Ē


Quote:
Ralph Vacchiano

Verified account

@RVacchianoSNY
Following Following @RVacchianoSNY
More Ralph Vacchiano Retweeted Ralph Vacchiano
Shurmur on how tightly teams cover Odell Beckham: ďYou see how one question is totally opposite from the other? Just throw it to Odell, no matter what, but then hey, by the way, they were surrounding him.Ē


Quote:
Ralph Vacchiano

Verified account

@RVacchianoSNY
Following Following @RVacchianoSNY
More Ralph Vacchiano Retweeted Ralph Vacchiano
More Shurmur via @giantseisen: ďJust to chuck the ball down the field with no regard for how theyíre covering you at times is reckless. It has to be strategic.Ē
OBJ is on a video on ESPN  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 9:42 am : link
indicating Giants do not play with enough heart and he is questioning why they do not "even attempt" to throw the ball 20+ yards...

Sounds like that's a direct answer from Shurmur to that....  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:44 am : link
unless you think he's lying.
Look, you can keep beating the drum that Eli is a chickenshit....  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:45 am : link
and let's face it, that's what's being said.

But Shurmur is coaching this. The answers above can't get anymore direct than that. Case Keenum is echoing similar statements on another team, which tells you that that's what he was coached to do as well.

It's a new offense, and that's what they're preaching. Right, wrong, or indifferent.
You can take the words at face value.  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:47 am : link
Or you can create alternate realities where there is some front office conspiracy to deflect blame from Manning at all costs.

That's the offensive philosophy.

Hopefully it will open up as we move forward.
RE: OBJ is on a video on ESPN  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:48 am : link
In comment 14107065 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
indicating Giants do not play with enough heart and he is questioning why they do not "even attempt" to throw the ball 20+ yards...


And when in his entire career has Manning been scared of forcing a throw. Give me a break. He's changed because the way he's being coached to play has changed.

He went from high risk, high reward offense to low risk, no reward offense.
I think they better work on executing their check-downs better  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 9:49 am : link
if that is what is going to move the chains, and create scores.

Otherwise he is lying to himself...
RE: I think they better work on executing their check-downs better  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 14107085 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
if that is what is going to move the chains, and create scores.

Otherwise he is lying to himself...


Agreed.
Don't get so excited...nobody called Eli chicken-shit  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 9:52 am : link
do you always like to create your own conversations?

I put the OBJ comment out there because right/wrong/indifferent Shurmur has to keep this team together and you can see it slipping already...
Let's be real...  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 9:54 am : link
The whole narrative this week is that Eli is scared of pressure, real or perceived, this week and that's why he won't throw the ball downfield. Basically chickensh-t.
RE: OBJ is on a video on ESPN  
ron mexico : 10/5/2018 9:57 am : link
In comment 14107065 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
indicating Giants do not play with enough heart and he is questioning why they do not "even attempt" to throw the ball 20+ yards...


link?

this seems to be  
ron mexico : 10/5/2018 10:03 am : link
what you are talking about
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Let's be real...  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:15 am : link
In comment 14107097 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
The whole narrative this week is that Eli is scared of pressure, real or perceived, this week and that's why he won't throw the ball downfield. Basically chickensh-t.


Man, you gotta take it down a notch...

What the hell difference does this week's narrative (or any other week's) matter? Its like posters are criticizing you and our family the way you respond try to fend off these comments.

Shurmur's gameplan aside, Eli isn't at all comfortable anymore when he drops back to pass, and we don't need to go into the numerous reasons why that is valid or not. He simply is not. And its not helping the offense...
What the hell is this message board then if not for that?  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:17 am : link
I don't agree that he won't throw it down field because he's scared.

I think it's what Shurmur is coaching.
Hell, even Shurmur mentioned the narrative:  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:20 am : link
Quote:
ďThatís a false narrative that we werenít trying to throw the ball down the field. Thatís a false narrative, and if for some reason, they legislate against it, we have to check the ball down, keep the chains moving.Ē
Just put it on the list  
Keith : 10/5/2018 10:21 am : link
as another person who is at fault for the offenses failures. Its never Eli.
The Saints defender is the one who said he was scared  
jcn56 : 10/5/2018 10:23 am : link
On BBI, we've seen repeatedly people mentioning his anticipation of pressure that isn't there, and that his internal clock is off.

I don't think Eli's afraid to take the hit. I think after being sacked so many times, and in an attempt to reduce the number of sacks and fumbles, he throws the ball when he senses the pocket is starting to collapse, often to a checkdown. That, combined with the overall scheme of working short to intermediate passes and trying to get the ball out quicker to offset the rush is resulting in a dysfunctional offense.
RE: Just put it on the list  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:23 am : link
In comment 14107165 Keith said:
Quote:
as another person who is at fault for the offenses failures. Its never Eli.


See, this is what is frustrating....

It's not about Eli. It's about the quarterback, okay? It's about what the quarterback is being asked to do within the system, and I've posted a ton of stuff on this very thread about that. Case Keenum was doing the same things in Minny last year, saying the same things.

This is what Shurmur is coaching.
It's not about absolving Eli at this point....  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:24 am : link
I'm trying to figure out why the offense is underperforming.
The one thing I dont get it  
dep026 : 10/5/2018 10:25 am : link
Even I can blame Eli for his faults this year.... HE was too reactionary in the Saints game, he missed some throws against JAX. Dallas game I put more on the OL.

But it just seems now its all Eli or all someone else. This is an Eli problem. Its a Shurmur problem. Its an OL problem. And some can be attest to injuries (no EE last week), no reliable deep threat outside OBJ (Russell Shepard, really?).

Our problems wont be solved by changing one player or one coach or a few OL. We need EVERYTHING to change for the better.
What I don't understand....  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:28 am : link
Is when the Saints were clearly in zone coverage and taking away everything past 15 yards, why we didn't run the ball down their throat, or at least try to.

We also missed Engram last week, up the seam.
RE: What the hell is this message board then if not for that?  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:31 am : link
In comment 14107158 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't agree that he won't throw it down field because he's scared.

I think it's what Shurmur is coaching.


Yes...lets blame Shurmur.
RE: It's not about absolving Eli at this point....  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 14107174 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I'm trying to figure out why the offense is underperforming.


you crack me up...
RE: RE: What the hell is this message board then if not for that?  
dep026 : 10/5/2018 10:34 am : link
In comment 14107185 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14107158 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't agree that he won't throw it down field because he's scared.

I think it's what Shurmur is coaching.



Yes...lets blame Shurmur.


There is a lot of blame to go around which includes the HC and QB.
RE: What I don't understand....  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:35 am : link
In comment 14107181 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Is when the Saints were clearly in zone coverage and taking away everything past 15 yards, why we didn't run the ball down their throat, or at least try to.

We also missed Engram last week, up the seam.


Generally or specifically, the Giants suck at offense. The Oline creates many problems of course...no question. But even when things are blocked up front, Eli and our playmakers make critical mistakes too when given the opportunity. And when they don't, sometimes Shurmur is not adapting to what the defense is doing.

they stink although have 12 games to improve...
RE: The one thing I dont get it  
Keith : 10/5/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 14107177 dep026 said:
Quote:
Even I can blame Eli for his faults this year.... HE was too reactionary in the Saints game, he missed some throws against JAX. Dallas game I put more on the OL.

But it just seems now its all Eli or all someone else. This is an Eli problem. Its a Shurmur problem. Its an OL problem. And some can be attest to injuries (no EE last week), no reliable deep threat outside OBJ (Russell Shepard, really?).

Our problems wont be solved by changing one player or one coach or a few OL. We need EVERYTHING to change for the better.


Agreed. We have too many problems that can't be fixed. That's why most logical people were ready to rebuild this offseason as opposed to trying to patchwork the deficiancies to appease all the giants fans that cried like little babies when Eli was benched. We had a chance and we passed. Instead we chose to try and go for it with a declining 37 year old that is playing scared and can't even navigate a pocket.
Logical gets used in funny ways around here.  
Britt in VA : 10/5/2018 10:46 am : link
.
Unfortunately emotion  
Keith : 10/5/2018 10:49 am : link
gets used just a little more. Equally, I would hope that my team would use logic instead of emotion when making key decisions, but that's not the case here.
RE: this seems to be  
ron mexico : 10/5/2018 10:51 am : link
In comment 14107111 ron mexico said:
Quote:
what you are talking about Link - ( New Window )


BTW who is he sitting with?
RE: Unfortunately emotion  
Jimmy Googs : 10/5/2018 10:54 am : link
In comment 14107207 Keith said:
Quote:
gets used just a little more. Equally, I would hope that my team would use logic instead of emotion when making key decisions, but that's not the case here.


Don't forget, they used the tape from last year's Philly game too...
QB guru  
BBelle21 : 10/5/2018 12:31 pm : link
Mark Schofield talks in depth about what Britt in Va brings up. Itís an interesting listen about the schematic role in Eliís checkdowns


Locked on Giants- Eli Manningís checkdowns - ( New Window )
Itís not just the offense philosophy  
BillT : 10/12/2018 8:42 am : link
Itís the offensive philosophy plus an OL that can neither run block or pass block.
Back to the Corner