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| A: Again, I mentioned it yesterday, we took some shots and they were playing in two-shell, so the ball gets checked down. That’s one reason for it. A: Yeah, we called them. There were deep routes called that we couldn’t get the ball downfield, so you check it down. Then you move on. A: You call plays to be aggressive. If they’re there, you take your shots. That’s how you dictate. And if they’re not there, you check them down, and then the backs catch the ball and run with it. You’re talking about seven-eight yard gains, which is fine, so that’s how you dictate. Then you make them defend those. That’s how you dictate, and then when you choose to run the ball, you make yardage. |
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| Q: If the defense is taking away those deep routes, is it worth it at all to take a shot anyway, even though the coverage isn’t ideal for that? A: That usually leads to bad plays. There’s ways to get explosive plays without throwing it deep. It’s not like they all have to be go-routes or post-routes. Hitting guys on the move when they do play man, in zones you can still hit plays. In breaking routes and buying time. You can still hit explosive plays when teams are trying to take away the deep shots. |
It's disappointing that those performances are rare. I was very hopeful that the Texans performance was a sign of things to come. Maybe they do get a bit better. But I don't see Eli leading an elite offense anymore.
I was too. I thought the Texans game was a good stepping stone and could have been a sign of a turnaround.
Turns out, Houston might just have a really, really crappy defense.
I'm not pretending I have all the answers here. I just think at some point we have to consider that perhaps we're not going to be able to form the OL good enough for this particular QB in time to make another run with him.
It feels like we're swimming against the current.
Saquon average 4.4 YPC. I wouldn't call the running game non-existent (I just don't think it was used enough on Sunday).
Prime Eli didn't need everything to be good for him to perform.
Take away his long run he had 9 carries for 18 yards. One run skewed the numbers just like it did agaisnt JAX.
The OL is not acceptable no matter who the QB is.
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I don't know if I'd classify it as good, but it wasn't bad.
Saquon average 4.4 YPC. I wouldn't call the running game non-existent (I just don't think it was used enough on Sunday).
Prime Eli didn't need everything to be good for him to perform.
Take away his long run he had 9 carries for 18 yards. One run skewed the numbers just like it did agaisnt JAX.
The OL is not acceptable no matter who the QB is.
I think you have unrealistic expectations for the OL.
Its a broken record, its been happening for over a year now. Until we can do 1 or the other, then this will continue.
Yeah that's what I see as well. Get the running game going and it'll open up the passing game more. I thought that was a main part of the thinking when drafting Barkley.
IMO Barkley only getting a handful of rushing attempts in the second half after his first run played right into the Saints hands.
I say make a commitment to running and getting Saquon going. Not only will it help the passing game but he energizes the whole team, and home crowd as well.
I think you have unrealistic expectations for the OL.
We have been the worst rushing team in football for 6 years. Asking for a sustainable running game shouldnt be this hard.
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I think you have unrealistic expectations for the OL.
We have been the worst rushing team in football for 6 years. Asking for a sustainable running game shouldnt be this hard.
No it shouldn't.
Now that we have a dynamic back who can make things happen, they need to feed him the ball and commit to getting a running game going.
His skills should make up for some of the lines deficiencies IMO.
Nailed a ton of salient points, and not based on some "hyperbolic" intention.
He cant magically makes 6 defenders miss him at the LOS. He will make 1-2. But he needs room to operate as well. He is averaging 2.8 YPC outside two long runs where he did everything himself. 2.8!!!!!
Just finished watching the All-22 of the first half from Sunday. Eli Manning wasn't touched once. Took ZERO QB hits. I counted 1 pressure. Using the O-line excuse this week is lazy. This is his pocket on the second missed throw of the first half to Odell Beckham Jr. Link - ( New Window )
I don't know what game Raanan watched but the whole 2nd half he was getting pressured right up the middle
Make up your mind :)
Individual posters do not change their minds. Posters who say that Eli is done are not the same posters who applaud him when the Giants win or when he does well. They are different posters.
He cant magically makes 6 defenders miss him at the LOS. He will make 1-2. But he needs room to operate as well. He is averaging 2.8 YPC outside two long runs where he did everything himself. 2.8!!!!!
No he can't but posters are saying D's are dropping seven into coverage. If that's the case, they should be running more. Get a hat on a hat and let Saquon find a crease.
I see it as them not committing to running. It looks to me like they just throw a few in to keep a D honest when they should be making D's have to commit and focus on stopping a running game.
Maybe it's just how I'm seeing it but it doesn't appear to me the Giants are committed enough both mentally and physically to the run game. I'd love for them to just say we're going to run it down their throats this drive, and see if the OLine feeds off that.
I know they're not the most talented line but maybe if they felt running was as important as pass blocking they would be better at it. When the majority of a half is spent passing when a game isn't out of hand, it seems to me that's showing where the priorities of the coaching is.
This is going to be unbelievable coming from my keyboard, because I have killed OBJ for his antics, but he is 100% right to be frustrated. For that guy with that skill set not have a TD a quarter of the way through the season is absolutely insane.
Let's be honest, right now the contract we are paying OBJ is a complete waste of money. And it's absolutely not him.
While the concepts and Keenum comparisons carry some validity, it seems Eli's choosing the check downs more than preferred. He was trying to quickly get rid of the ball vs the Saints, yet again this unit collectively failed to defeat simple Cover 2 looks.
The OL lack of talent is part of the problem, youth at the skill positions and the QB are part of the problem. Can they reverse the tide remains to be seen.
Bingo. Shurmur is the anti McAdoo. McAdoo would be throwing Eli under the bus. Shurmur is doing a much better job of managing the situation
Bingo. Shurmur is the anti McAdoo. McAdoo would be throwing Eli under the bus. Shurmur is doing a much better job of managing the situation
I know this thread is about Eli and the offense, but the team is 1-3 and can't get out of its own way. I don't give a flying f-ck how well Shurmur is managing the press because, more importantly, it's very difficult right now to differentiate his game day decisions from McAdoo's.
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Bingo. Shurmur is the anti McAdoo. McAdoo would be throwing Eli under the bus. Shurmur is doing a much better job of managing the situation
I know this thread is about Eli and the offense, but the team is 1-3 and can't get out of its own way. I don't give a flying f-ck how well Shurmur is managing the press because, more importantly, it's very difficult right now to differentiate his game day decisions from McAdoo's.
You might not care, but the players on the team sure as hell care. The players pretty much mutinied McAdoo last year because of how he repeatedly handled talking about players in the media. That absolutely has an impact on how the team plays on the field
“Beckham had a hard time getting behind the Saints secondary, or even close to it.”
I firmly believe Odell was not frustrated or angry at Eli, he was frustrated and angry with himself whether it be his cramping or the Saints defense successfully corralling him. He’s a perfectionist and a fierce competitor. But Shurmur and Eli are right to not force these throws to Odell no matter what nonsense Jordan Raanan wants to tweet. It’s also admirable that Shurmur and Eli REFUSE to throw anyone under the bus.
Eli needs to play better but so does Odell and everyone else.
Shurmur:
A: Yeah, we called them. There were deep routes called that we couldn’t get the ball downfield, so you check it down. Then you move on.
A: You call plays to be aggressive. If they’re there, you take your shots. That’s how you dictate. And if they’re not there, you check them down, and then the backs catch the ball and run with it. You’re talking about seven-eight yard gains, which is fine, so that’s how you dictate. Then you make them defend those. That’s how you dictate, and then when you choose to run the ball, you make yardage.
Eli:
A: That usually leads to bad plays. There’s ways to get explosive plays without throwing it deep. It’s not like they all have to be go-routes or post-routes. Hitting guys on the move when they do play man, in zones you can still hit plays. In breaking routes and buying time. You can still hit explosive plays when teams are trying to take away the deep shots.
Keenum this year in Denver:
Keenums Stats in Minny last year:
68% completion percentage. 3500 yards, 22 TD's, only 7 INT's.
This is the pace Eli is on right now.
"Keenum's Koncepts" in Minny, from Mile High Report:
A few overarching principles to keep in mind about the offense Case Keenum ran last year in Minnesota:
Staying on schedule is huge
Minnesota’s offense was all predicated on staying on schedule. They weren’t built to come from behind or convert a lot of 3rd and longs (few teams are built for this). Their run/pass split was one of the most balanced in the league last year as they were near 50% of runs and passes.
Getting small chunks of yards that set up 2nd or 3rd and manageable kept them from getting behind the sticks early in drives.
Low risk plays led to low turnovers
Low risk doesn’t necessarily mean no big plays, as Keenum still had his fair share of big plays. However, the bread and butter of the offense was a short/intermediate passing game that were inherently lower risk passes.
This approach allowed Keenum to finish top 5 in interception rate, along with Drew Brees and Tom Brady (who employ similar offensive strategies).
Get the ball to players in space
We’ll dig into it more in a later post, but Case Keenum and the Minnesota offense was one of the best in the league at generating YAC for the offense. They did this by scheming players into space where they could go make a play.
We’ll keep these in mind as we go through the various concepts each week.
With that, let’s dive in!
Concepts
As the title indicated, the meat of this will be digging into two concepts Minnesota and Keenum ran with a lot of success last year.
Keenum's Koncepts 7/18/18 - ( New Window )
The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.
We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....
So it takes us 8 guys to block 4 defenders.
Basically we had 2 WR's out on routes verses seven guys in coverage.
The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.
We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....
That's not the point. I'm using it to try and paint a picture of what the offense was designed to do and his job within it.
So it takes us 8 guys to block 4 defenders.
Basically we had 2 WR's out on routes verses seven guys in coverage.
C'mon Britt - tell the whole story.
Sure, we only had 2 WRs out on routes, but OBJ STILL got wide open.
And Eli missed him
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The 2017 Vikings were 10th in points and 11th in yards.
The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.
We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....
That's not the point. I'm using it to try and paint a picture of what the offense was designed to do and his job within it.
Watch Vikings games from last and compare it to the Giants this year. It's not the same offense.
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So it takes us 8 guys to block 4 defenders.
Basically we had 2 WR's out on routes verses seven guys in coverage.
C'mon Britt - tell the whole story.
Sure, we only had 2 WRs out on routes, but OBJ STILL got wide open.
And Eli missed him
I didn't know if this was the same play or not, thank you for confirming.
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The 2017 Vikings were 10th in points and 11th in yards.
The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.
We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....
That's not the point. I'm using it to try and paint a picture of what the offense was designed to do and his job within it.
I watched plenty of the Vikings offense last year. It was much better than this is. And Keenum didn't have any more weapons than Eli has. So, what's the issue? Why are we less productive?
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So it takes us 8 guys to block 4 defenders.
Basically we had 2 WR's out on routes verses seven guys in coverage.
C'mon Britt - tell the whole story.
Sure, we only had 2 WRs out on routes, but OBJ STILL got wide open.
And Eli missed him
He missed the throw. He didn't miss the read. And it wasn't some deep bomb, it was an intermediate route underneath the zone.
It was a really high throw. Why he missed it that bad, I don't know, but he was going OBJ's direction.
Missing the throw and not seeing the guy open or not making the read are different things being discussed here.
A lot of people's argument is that Eli is checking down because he's hearing footsteps and checking down instead. That wasn't a checkdown. He found OBJ, he just physically missed the throw.
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Just finished watching the All-22 of the first half from Sunday. Eli Manning wasn't touched once. Took ZERO QB hits. I counted 1 pressure. Using the O-line excuse this week is lazy. This is his pocket on the second missed throw of the first half to Odell Beckham Jr. Link - ( New Window )
I don't know what game Raanan watched but the whole 2nd half he was getting pressured right up the middle
What do we feel Eli is doing well so far this year?
Not what he hasn't been able to do because of the OL.. or the new offense.... or some other reason.
What's he succeeding at thus far and what is happening that should give us faith things will turn?
What do we feel Eli is doing well so far this year?
Not what he hasn't been able to do because of the OL.. or the new offense.... or some other reason.
What's he succeeding at thus far and what is happening that should give us faith things will turn?
He's got close to a 75% comp percentage going for him...which is nice.
What do we feel Eli is doing well so far this year?
Not what he hasn't been able to do because of the OL.. or the new offense.... or some other reason.
What's he succeeding at thus far and what is happening that should give us faith things will turn?
Agree or not, he has not put the ball in the air for the defense to make a play. His misses have been out of the defenders chance. His only INT was on a tip ball.
I know some may not want to hear this..... but when Eli was throwing a ton of INTs - people bitched he was too much of a gun slinger and needed to check it down and be more careful with the ball.
Not so much faith as patience, and hope that the offense will evolve and gel. That as players get more comfortable in it, it will open up some.
That's it.
So you should expect a season of losses like Sunday.
I think they will evolve and get better. I'm hopeful that as the season progresses we'll have more performances like last Sunday.
Guess we'll all just have to wait and see.
I don't think we're seeing the finished product quite yet. But that's me.
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Let's re-frame the question for a second...
What do we feel Eli is doing well so far this year?
Not what he hasn't been able to do because of the OL.. or the new offense.... or some other reason.
What's he succeeding at thus far and what is happening that should give us faith things will turn?
Agree or not, he has not put the ball in the air for the defense to make a play. His misses have been out of the defenders chance. His only INT was on a tip ball.
I know some may not want to hear this..... but when Eli was throwing a ton of INTs - people bitched he was too much of a gun slinger and needed to check it down and be more careful with the ball.
Of course he's not going to throw many INT's when he's barely ever throwing the ball past the sticks.
I don't really look at that as much of a positive right now.
Mitch Trubisky, who "sucks" I was told, threw more than that in one half of football Sunday.
Of course he's not going to throw many INT's when he's barely ever throwing the ball past the sticks.
I don't really look at that as much of a positive right now.
I agree but this was a huge complaint in gilbrides offense. Too many wrong reads, wrong routes, INTs, etc...
Now we are seeing the other spectrum. Its not pretty.
It really is amazing.
The 2018 Giants are currently 29th and 25th respectively.
We used to compare Eli to the top QB's in the game. Now we're comparing him to Case Keenum....
Maybe Denver will give Eli a huge contract next year.
So well said and others here are sharing some great points.
Eman, you are right. When was the last time the Giants came out and actually showed a first priority to run the ball down your throat? Denver last year? They don't do it. They must feel as if the offense has no chance of successfully running the ball consistently but they never try!
gratefulhead, also well stated. Eli was a gunslinger and they basically neutered him by forcing WCO onto him. His last great season was a mix of Gilbride and Mac's systems in 2015.
Even former players came out and said it - this franchise failed Eli on the latter half of his career in many ways. I think this is undeniable. But, we are in the here and now. Right now, i think he is cooked (again for many reasons out of his control unfortunately)
My question is, did they see this coming? Was there a plan to give him this year and then move on? Or did they really believe he has years left in him? As someone who still has faith in Gettleman, if it is the latter i would be really concerned.
Keenum 1st 4 games last year:
78/124 62% 895 yards (7.2 y/a), 4 TD's, 0 INT's
Eli's 1st 4 games this year:
112/151 74% 1055 yards (6.98 y/a), 4 TD's, 1 INT
Again, this is not comparing the two athletes, it is comparing their performance in the system.
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Of course he's not going to throw many INT's when he's barely ever throwing the ball past the sticks.
I don't really look at that as much of a positive right now.
I agree but this was a huge complaint in gilbrides offense. Too many wrong reads, wrong routes, INTs, etc...
Now we are seeing the other spectrum. Its not pretty.
Well, the Giants shouldn't be building their offense based on what the fans complain about or how much they complain.
The goal is to put points on the board. We didn't do it in 2016. We didn't do it in 2017. And again, we're not doing it in 2018. Different coaches, different coordinators, different offensive linemen, different skill players.
Whether it was Coughlin's offense/influence or Eli no longer being the same QB, 2015 was the last time he played at a high level and in the NFL, that might as well have been a decade ago.
The excuse well for Eli is running dry.