Reading between the lines, the lack of deep passing....

McAdoo. And McAdoo was his own OC, so it's still one guy.
That's it. That's the only coach not named Coughlin or Gilbride that took a shot with him and failed.

Book is still out on new regime.

Contrary to what it feels like on here right now, there is a LOT of football left to play this season.

In comment 14103851 Keith said:

Quote:

doesn't mean they were right. Just like coming into the year with Eli as our starter. Just like drafting a RB at #2. You can make a case that they've done more wrong than right with this new regime. Britt, I can appreciate your love for Eli. I too am a huge fan, but you are letting that fandom blind you from reality. Great QB's dont lose as much as he has in recent years. Great QB's don't fail to score 30 pts for 3 seasons. Great QB's don't continue to make poor decisions and poor throws againts poor defenses. The defense of Eli is getting crazy now. Multiple coordinators, multiple coaches, now multiple GM's, a slew of WR's/TE's/RB's and OL have all been to blame and yet here Eli is blameless to some. Its hard to fathom. Kinda shocking. I'm about as big of a fan as anyone else(outside BRitt and dep) and I can see it. He is never going to win on the Giants. I said it last year and I'll keep saying it. It's over.

Yep. And let's be honest, if this was anyother offense/QB in the league that hadn't scored 30 points since 2015, these guys would be highly critical of that offense and QB, without a doubt. I mean, how could you not be? This is an era of NFL football where high-scoring offenses are actually *encouraged* by the NFL these days with some of these rules.

You almost have to try NOT to score 30 points once in three years to actually achieve that in today's NFL. It's downright scary.

The OLine has been changed up multiple times. Even Flowers has now been finally benched. Multiple, new, heavily talented and praised skill position players all over the offense. New HC's, OC's, GM. Literally EVERYTHING has been changed at least once.

I'm sure some would rather change everything else up once again though than admit that the QB has a decent amount of a role in all of this, though.

this year certainly looks a lot like last year, no? I think most people would agree that its probably not going to get much better this season. The dude is 37 and seems frightened when he's in the pocket. He's continually staring at the rush rather than the routes down the field. How is that gonna change?

In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

but it's going to be entertaining yet again this offseason when Eli is not cut, or traded. Even more entertaining if he's restructured and that restructure results in a one year extension, and the massive temper tantrum that will ensue. That will bother a lot of you guys a lot more than him getting cut, traded, or extended will bother me.

I regret to say it, but you may be right here.

This organization has done an endless list of stupid things the last five years. So your hypothetical coming to reality would just add to the list.

In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

but it's going to be entertaining yet again this offseason when Eli is not cut, or traded. Even more entertaining if he's restructured and that restructure results in a one year extension, and the massive temper tantrum that will ensue. That will bother a lot of you guys a lot more than him getting cut, traded, or extended will bother me.

I sincerely doubt that. But you're back to pretending to be the balanced, unbiased poster again this week I see. I'm sure we'll see your true colors when Eli has his other good game this season.

Really? So, the argument now from some of you guys is that he STILL doesn't have enough weapons to work with?

It's like until we have an elite, top 3 NFL OL and all-pro players at every skill spot, you'll still find ways to claim that he's being undermined by his situation.

The excuse-making is just reaching ridiculous levels now.

Beckham and Barkley alone is more than a lot of QB's in this league have. Shepard is a very good slot WR. The lack of talent argument worked last year - it doesn't work now.

Are the Saints' weapons that much better? Thomas/Kamara and Beckham/Barkley should be a wash. The only two guys on that roster with more than 10 receptions between those two are Ted Ginn (12) and Ben Watson (13)

Yet, New Orleans is a top 5 scoring offense so far.

So, how is Drew Brees managing with this type of cast that is apparently too poor to succeed with for Eli?

I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, I’d be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough.

As far as OL tho, we aren’t even bad. We are worse than that.

That isn't simply because Eli can't play anymore - though his performance is definitely a factor. There are several issues at play, not the least of which is the idiocy of hiring (again) a coordinator that is married to a system that doesn't suit what Eli does well.

Eli should be throwing the ball intermediate to deep, and outside the numbers. It should often be coming off play action and 5- and 7-step drops. That isn't happening in part because the OL is shit and in part because the offense isn't designed for it. It's also not happening in part because it's an antiquated way to play offensive football.

But the "why" doesn't really matter. It's over. For all intents and purposes it's been over for Eli as a Giant since 2012. Everything since has been epilogue.

It's time to move the fuck on.

In comment 14103888 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

Really? So, the argument now from some of you guys is that he STILL doesn't have enough weapons to work with? It's like until we have an elite, top 3 NFL OL and all-pro players at every skill spot, you'll still find ways to claim that he's being undermined by his situation. The excuse-making is just reaching ridiculous levels now.

This should be a familiar tune. The same type of excuse making was made for Tom Coughlin, with people bending reality to make him out to be an innocent victim during Jerry Reese's reign of terror.

In comment 14103899 dep026 said:

Quote:

I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, I’d be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough. As far as OL tho, we aren’t even bad. We are worse than that.

A lot of teams are, though. If we cant move the ball with anything other than an elite offensive line, we chose the wrong direction to go in QB-wise.

It's a losing proposition if you have a QB who can't do anything with anything other than ideal surrounding conditions.

The QB has to be able to make off-schedule plays. All of the best QB's in this league are able to do that. Hell, Patrick Mahomes basically threw a chest pass left-handed while he was falling down last night for a completion.

We need to stop chasing the "right situation" for Eli because we're literally pissing into the wind.

regarding how things played out with Eli?

Did you miss the fact that we still completely suck at Offense and are 1-4 and heading nowhere for yet another season.

This is groundhog day and you want to take victory laps for predicting a poor decision that has wasted another year of football for this franchise and its fans.

Did you even wonder if posters gave different views because they were praying that if it went down this way it could/would be the very disaster it is...ever?

In comment 14103907 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 14103888 arcarsenal said: Quote: Really? So, the argument now from some of you guys is that he STILL doesn't have enough weapons to work with? It's like until we have an elite, top 3 NFL OL and all-pro players at every skill spot, you'll still find ways to claim that he's being undermined by his situation. The excuse-making is just reaching ridiculous levels now. This should be a familiar tune. The same type of excuse making was made for Tom Coughlin, with people bending reality to make him out to be an innocent victim during Jerry Reese's reign of terror.

There's just no give from this side sometimes. And yes, it goes both ways - we have people who want to lay ALL of the blame at the feet of the QB.

But it's just constant excuse making and "wait and see" over and over and over.

I'm not sure what it will take for a few of you guys to admit that maybe it really is over for Eli here and that it's time to move on. No more extensions, "going for it", etc.

We need to start planning for life after Eli... like, yesterday.

In comment 14103916 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 14103899 dep026 said: Quote: I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, I’d be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough. As far as OL tho, we aren’t even bad. We are worse than that. A lot of teams are, though. If we cant move the ball with anything other than an elite offensive line, we chose the wrong direction to go in QB-wise. It's a losing proposition if you have a QB who can't do anything with anything other than ideal surrounding conditions. The QB has to be able to make off-schedule plays. All of the best QB's in this league are able to do that. Hell, Patrick Mahomes basically threw a chest pass left-handed while he was falling down last night for a completion. We need to stop chasing the "right situation" for Eli because we're literally pissing into the wind.

I don't think you mean literally there.

In comment 14103921 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 14103907 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 14103888 arcarsenal said: Quote: Really? So, the argument now from some of you guys is that he STILL doesn't have enough weapons to work with? It's like until we have an elite, top 3 NFL OL and all-pro players at every skill spot, you'll still find ways to claim that he's being undermined by his situation. The excuse-making is just reaching ridiculous levels now. This should be a familiar tune. The same type of excuse making was made for Tom Coughlin, with people bending reality to make him out to be an innocent victim during Jerry Reese's reign of terror. There's just no give from this side sometimes. And yes, it goes both ways - we have people who want to lay ALL of the blame at the feet of the QB. But it's just constant excuse making and "wait and see" over and over and over. I'm not sure what it will take for a few of you guys to admit that maybe it really is over for Eli here and that it's time to move on. No more extensions, "going for it", etc. We need to start planning for life after Eli... like, yesterday.

Look, we had at least one user admitting to crying into his soup that Eli was benched last year.

Some people aren't going to let go until he's out there like a punch drunk boxer on fumes. They'll swear he's got one more run in him if he can just get an OL.

Sadly, you're right Hammer. Sentimentality is playing a big role in a lot of opinions here and this isn't always an objective discussion.

I understand why - but we need to be honest about this at some point. We can only re-shuffle things around the QB so many times before we keep arriving at the same place like this.

In comment 14103916 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 14103899 dep026 said: Quote: I am happy with the skilled players. If this was 2013-2016, I’d be singing a different tune. But this year he has more than enough. As far as OL tho, we aren’t even bad. We are worse than that. A lot of teams are, though. If we cant move the ball with anything other than an elite offensive line, we chose the wrong direction to go in QB-wise. It's a losing proposition if you have a QB who can't do anything with anything other than ideal surrounding conditions. The QB has to be able to make off-schedule plays. All of the best QB's in this league are able to do that. Hell, Patrick Mahomes basically threw a chest pass left-handed while he was falling down last night for a completion. We need to stop chasing the "right situation" for Eli because we're literally pissing into the wind.

I didn’t ask for an elite offensive line. How about an average one? Most team have average or better OLs.

Think of it this way Arc.... do you want barkley and a new QB behind this OL for the rest of their careers? I mean we are looking at already needing 3 starters for next year already.

Whenever Eli is done. This week, next month or next year... the next QB deserves A LOT better than what we have there now.

Believe it or not, what we have now might be closer to "average" than we think. NFL OL's are bad right now. They've been bad. You have to be able to overcome that to at least a small degree.

I didn't watch a game on Sunday where I felt like Eli constantly had no chance to make plays.

The protection against Dallas was different. Want to say the line was too poor for most QB's to do anything behind? I'll buy it in a game like that.

Not Sunday, though. If that's not good enough, we're just not going to be able to provide for Eli what he needs to succeed.

You're right about the offensive line. It's been a fucking joke, and the team destroyed the second half of Eli Manning's career through incompetence both in the front office and in the coaching staff starting around 2013. That's a hard, shitty truth to accept. I view Eli as a tragic figure. I named my kid after the fucking guy - to see how his career has concluded angers me as much as anything in sports could.

That's the first element of the situation. The second element is what should be done going forward. The first element should not inform the second. Mapping out the future requires complete objectivity. We're no longer talking about Eli Manning...we're talking about a 37 year old QB that costs $22M against the cap, and under whom the offense is not fully functioning.

If I'm running the Giants I am not starting the 2019 season with Eli Manning on the roster. If he's the QB we are not moving in a positive direction for the future. We'd be better off going with Lauletta and hoping he develops into anything.

It is over.

after the first seven games on McAdoo's tenure.

Same crowd jumping all over me....

Quote:

Points for through 7 games last year: Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 10:18 am : link 26 20 32 24 30 7 27 166 Points for through 7 games. Ended up the season with 420, good for 6th in the NFL. Defense was the problem last year. Points for through 7 games this year: 20 16 27 10 16 27 17 133 Point for through 7 games Good for 25th in the NFL currently.

Quote:

Last year's MO was that the offense was going to score a lot of points Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 11:34 am : link and the defense was either going to hold or lose it for us in the 4th. This year's MO is that the defense will keep us in it, and we don't know what the offense will do, if anything. Through seven games last year, the offense broke 20 points 6 times. Through seven games this year, the offense broke 20 points only 3 times. That's not good enough, or a sustainable model, to win games in today's NFL.

Guess what, shortly after that post we went on a Giants record streak of 8 games spanning two seasons of not beating 20 points.

I also mentioned Flaherty getting fired on that thread, for not getting along with Flowers, and how Flowers had performed better for Flaherty, but again, just delusional posting from a "Coughlin lover".
Link - ( New Window )

"thing". Check the date. Proof is all right there.

But I was a delusional Coughlin apologist and we were 4-3! We were winning! It didn't matter!

"being right" about a player or coach.

It's noticing trends and observations bigger than one player. It's trying to get a read on the overall organization and philosophy.

I think the proof is in the pudding right now that I've had a pretty damn good read on things, whether you agree with the organization on them or not, on what moves they were going to make and their reasoning behind them.

So call me delusional if you want.

that really had little to do with Eli other than he is the guy running the system.

The correlation is with Shurmur, and what he's teaching offensively.

During the summer it was all about Eli kicking his and taking names coming right up this season. Now it's 'philosophy' and 'be patient' and 'trends.'

.

In comment 14103841 Tesla said:

Quote:

In comment 14103828 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14103826 Tesla said: Quote: In comment 14103810 Britt in VA said: Quote: Ahh yes, much like my deslusional fantasy last year when I said the Giants starter week one would be Eli, while the rest all insisted he had played his final down/season as a Giant. Did you also not spend the offseason bragging about how this was going to be Eli's revenge tour? Even dep distinguishes himself by saying at least he's not at your level of "fandom" when it comes to Eli, and he's right. I defy you to find one other poster who believes right now that Eli is going to get an EXTENSION after this season. Try and find one.

I ignored this thread not because Britt started it, but because the 300+ posts. I knew it would be a bitch fest. But I'm bored and began to read. You want one poster? Here I am. I'm probably a bit further in Eli's camp than Britt. I've mentioned a possible extension last year, over the summer, and recently just today on another thread. You can even search through the archives when I advocated that Eli should hold out 2 years ago. Gatorade Dunk and I went back and forth and I said then that it was more likely that Eli gets a new contract. Gatorade Dunk bet me at the time (no specific terms other than a simple I'm right/wrong).

Getting a short extension done with Eli would be about as shocking as beige paint. Part of me feels like elements of ownership have been on an apology tour since the benching.

In comment 14103783 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

What was my track record in calling every move last year compared to all of the rational posters here?

These conversations are always difficult with you because of the personal back slapping and pleasure you take when you've guessed what the organization will do.

But guessing what this organization will do is much different than what will work.

I'd always wager the Maras to do the loyal thing, especially for characters from the recent Super Bowl era. Doesn't mean it's the right or winning thing to do.

Does being right make up for watching this crap team they are fielding and watching Manning get his shit kicked in weekly?

In comment 14103981 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

"being right" about a player or coach. It's noticing trends and observations bigger than one player. It's trying to get a read on the overall organization and philosophy. I think the proof is in the pudding right now that I've had a pretty damn good read on things, whether you agree with the organization on them or not, on what moves they were going to make and their reasoning behind them. So call me delusional if you want.

Are you sure it's not about being right?

You're digging up 2 year old posts of yours and seem to often go out of your way to remind people what your stances were from years past.

If anything you've predicted even remotely comes into fruition, you're the first one to remind everyone by either pulling up an old thread or starting a new one as a reminder.

Not trying to be a jerk, but I do think you care about being right because your posting patterns make it pretty clear.

It's about having examples where I was piled on and called delusional only to have it come to fruition.

So, it's about being right.

You've been good at predicting what the Giants will do, but not so good at predicting the results of their actions. You thought we'd blow out Jacksonville and Dallas. You thought the offense would bounce back once the scourge of McAdoo (who looks less dumb by the minute) and Reese were eliminated.

We all would be best served by accepting what this team has let itself become: a mismanaged disaster with no overall plan.

In comment 14104041 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

So, it's about being right.

Of course it is. And everyone else is just mad at not drafting a QB, nothing to do with the fact that the team is in shambles now.

you can pile on me, call me delusional, call me irrational, call me an apologist, and Eli lover, a Coughlin lover...

But when I get it right, it's just about me being right. Got it.

You know, when the Giants lose, we all lose, right?

Pointing out the 20 point deficiency wasn't done because I wanted to be right. I was trying to figure out why.

Just like I am now. But all you guys do is want to discredit the Eli Apologist.

in Shurmur's, Eli's, and Keenum's statements regarding the offensive philosophy. It was not an Eli excuse or apologist thread. It was trying to figure out why we weren't passing deep.

That thread was about why we weren't scoring 20 points, and the difference between the two offenses over an offseason and transition from one HC to another that was supposed to be done for offensive continuity. It wasn't a Coughlin apologist thread.

Both thread were improperly turned into something they were not. Not by me.

You may be right (though I'm not sure)...but pointing out the idiosyncrasies of Shurmur's offense is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I haven't called you any of those things. I think my arguments today were completely non-personal and logical. I've done nothing but offer my own opinions on the situation. I didn't resort fo any personal attacks with any poster here.

I just think you absolutely care about being right.

You came up with this whole prediction/scenario thing about how the Redskins were going to handle RG3 after he got hurt a few years back and literally every step of the way, you made sure to remind everyone what your prediction was.

You most certainly care about your track record here when it comes to forecasting the way things will play out both with the Giants and elsewhere - in fact, much of your posting revolves around it whether you've noticed that or not.

I'm not attacking you or calling you names. Just my take. And I think you're getting so defensive because part of you knows it's true.

Fan, that doesn't mean I value him over the team. I'm a fan because it's been a pleasure to have him as a NY Giant. I understand the good possibility that he is cooked mentally from years of not having protection. I'm actually ok if that is the case, it sucks, but it's what happens. I will say if this it for Manning and the giants pick high again it will be exciting at least for me. They got a really good player in Saquon this year, and if this season goes way south they could be in position to grab a top qb adding him to some good pieces ready.

Who commented to the effect that

"he and Manning would repeatedly practice a single play in their own time. Ten extra times. Twenty extra times. Get the timing down."

Beck's. Latimer. The Shep's, EE., these players might want to stop expecting some pie in the sky ideal (if thats what they are doing) and put those type of reps in with the QB . especially on those long routes. Manning always seemed to need that trust level and is more int adverse now.

and I support drafting Barkley.

But in a league where guys like Andy Dalton, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Mitchell Trubisky can put up pinball machine numbers, I don't think it's too much to expect the Giants offense to move the ball in the air consistently well, especially with one of the three most electrifying wide receivers in the game.

Paying a 38-year-old $19 million in 2019 to continue leading a long-struggling offense will make exactly zero sense.

This thing need to end. See what Lauletta can do and, if necessary, get someone else in here in the spring.

when someone says it’s not about the money, everyone knows it’s about the money.

Apply that here.

When someone says it’s not about being right, everyone knows that’s exactly what it’s about...

In comment 14104083 idiotsavant said:

Quote:

Who commented to the effect that "he and Manning would repeatedly practice a single play in their own time. Ten extra times. Twenty extra times. Get the timing down." Beck's. Latimer. The Shep's, EE., these players might want to stop expecting some pie in the sky ideal (if thats what they are doing) and put those type of reps in with the QB . especially on those long routes. Manning always seemed to need that trust level and is more int adverse now.

Are you suggesting that OBJ would be best served to participate in Manning's Pitch/Catch session at Duke?

In comment 14104061 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

in Shurmur's, Eli's, and Keenum's statements regarding the offensive philosophy. It was not an Eli excuse or apologist thread. It was trying to figure out why we weren't passing deep. That thread was about why we weren't scoring 20 points, and the difference between the two offenses over an offseason and transition from one HC to another that was supposed to be done for offensive continuity. It wasn't a Coughlin apologist thread. Both thread were improperly turned into something they were not. Not by me.

Oh come on dude -- this thread has hundreds of posts -- the vast majority good football chat. This thread went sideways at exactly 3:25 pm:

Quote:

I love how I'm labeled the irrational one ... What was my track record in calling every move last year compared to all of the rational posters here?

And this gem:

Quote:

What you are witnessing is one gigantic, collective temper tantrum of posters that did not get their way in drafting a QB, so much so that it blinds every other thing the organization does. It's a mardi gras after we lose, and a ghost town after we win.

I mean, instead of just verbal diarrhea after every synapse fires in our head?

Should we want to revisit things down the line?

I just don't get it, I guess.

I don't see that.

How many posts actually addressed what the thread was about? Not many.

It's really a big whatever from me.

This hasn't been a discussion, it's been an argument akin to a political discussion. There was never a discussion. Just two sides yelling at each other.

Because we know those definitely aren't discussions.

are doing well.

But you sure as fuck won't hear a peep from me about it from here on out.

It is more important for you to be “right” on an anonymous message board.

If this board bothers you so much as the majority of the posters have an opposite opinion, maybe you need to take a break for a while. Not passing judgement, but aren’t you a teacher? How do you find the time everyday to get into these debates?

Not spend the offseason calling people who pointed out flaws and decline in Eli delusional?

Get a grip.