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Please don't ever argue that refs don't impact outcomes!!

FatMan in Charlotte : 10/7/2018 7:21 pm
I've never attended a game before where fans of both sides talked about the refereeing instead of the plays being made.

I'm walking out of the stadium to Panther fans actually saying we got fucked. That just doesn't happen.

Each week when officiating is discussed, people actually have the nerve to say that they don't impact the outcome of games. And let's be clear - that doesn't mean they cause a loss or a win - that they impact the outcome - today they flat-out decided the game

I felt like an idiot a couple times in the stands. Our section starting celebrating when McCaffery was stopped on 3rd down and Cam clocked the ball. We thought he screwed up because from where we were, McCaffery didn't look anywhere close to getting the first down.

I actually take more issue with that call - because there's supposedly a system in place to review bad calls, and that was missed - blatantly missed. I don't think the Panthers kick it there either because there's a 10 second runoff and 4th down with hardly anytime left.

But let's look how we got fucked:
- 4th down pass breakup called as defensive hold. It's tough to see that from the stands, but the replay at the stadium didn't show anything
- Facemask penalty picked up. Maybe it wasn't a facemask, but here's the thing. 3rd week in a row there's been a conference about a facemask or horse collar. All 3 calls have gone against us.
-Facemask penalty on Shepard not called. Very obvious. Two plays later Eli throws a pick
- Fumble recovered out of bounds. Not only did this give the Panthers a 1st down, but it was originally called a recovery by the Giants until a conference - then they ruled him out. No need to even go to replay
- Roughing the passer. This is the other time I felt like an idiot. We already had the hold in the pocket, and it looked like they called intentional grounding since it was thrown after Cam was already down, and threw his arms up towards Boger
- I can't even fathom the hit on Funchess. The ref doesn't throw the flag until Funchess is one the ground holding his head. Then we saw the replay and the Panthers fans thought the call was pass interference. You could audibly hear the stadium boo after that call. Ginat fans represented well today

- I don't know if people realize this, but they threw a flag for illegal contact with a little over 2 minutes left. And as he ran in, another ref told him to pick it up. That would've been such a horseshit call.

Boger's crew should be fired. Bottom line. They failed in all aspects of calling the game, both objectively or correctly.

And it is completely unacceptable to not review a failed 3rd down play, that was blatantly short.

We were fucked. Absolutely fucked, and I hope the team accrues as many fines as possible to highlight the shit show. Each week a team is royally fucked by the random Wheel of Incompetence
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RE: Well  
BestFeature : 10/7/2018 8:53 pm : link
In comment 14112361 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
1) The argument that refs impact wins and losses IS valid. 100%

2) Today, NYG got the short end of the stick with multiple calls

3) But I think it's pointless to discuss because it goes both ways. Every team gets lucky here and there. Every team gets unlucky here and there. However each individual fan base always thinks their team gets it worse than others. Similar to injury-talk.

4) The point remains...Rosas kick out of bounds. Missed tackles left and right. 2 bad INTs thrown by Manning. Zero pass rush by NYG. Good teams overcome bad refs, and NYG had multiple chances to do so. They failed.


For the sake of the NFL "it happens both ways is NOT good enough."
RE: RE: Well  
BestFeature : 10/7/2018 9:03 pm : link
In comment 14112568 BestFeature said:
Quote:
In comment 14112361 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


1) The argument that refs impact wins and losses IS valid. 100%

2) Today, NYG got the short end of the stick with multiple calls

3) But I think it's pointless to discuss because it goes both ways. Every team gets lucky here and there. Every team gets unlucky here and there. However each individual fan base always thinks their team gets it worse than others. Similar to injury-talk.

4) The point remains...Rosas kick out of bounds. Missed tackles left and right. 2 bad INTs thrown by Manning. Zero pass rush by NYG. Good teams overcome bad refs, and NYG had multiple chances to do so. They failed.



For the sake of the NFL "it happens both ways is NOT good enough."


For the sake of the NFL "it happens both ways" is NOT good enough.
Its losers lament when turning to blame refs  
micky : 10/7/2018 9:04 pm : link
Sorry make the plays to not be in that situation
Thanks, FMiC  
clatterbuck : 10/7/2018 9:06 pm : link
Excellent post and follow-up analysis. I've been watching Giants and NFL football for more than 60 years. The officiating continues to deteriorate. Today was a horrendous example. Usually, there may be one or two critical calls in a game. Today there were at least five.
Don't worry  
B in ALB : 10/7/2018 9:08 pm : link
Olivier Vernon will be back by Week 13.
RE: Its losers lament when turning to blame refs  
UConn4523 : 10/7/2018 9:15 pm : link
In comment 14112595 micky said:
Quote:
Sorry make the plays to not be in that situation


So if a Giants fan bitches about Clay Mathews getting jobbed, that makes me a loser?

None of us play in these games. We can asses and critique whatever we want. Saying “make plays” doesn’t make you a tough guy, doesn’t impact the game, and provides nothing on threads.
RE: FatMan in Charlotte  
TyreeHelmet : 10/7/2018 9:17 pm : link
In comment 14112357 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I hear ya... you're preaching to the choir.

I swear, if the NFL was actually TRYING to ruin themselves, they couldn't do a better job than they are now. It's like they sit around a boardroom and say, "What else can we do to turn fans off?" "I know, let's add another commerical!" "Yeah, and let's make it a PF penalty when no one actually gets hit!"

At least the game was exciting today. And the Giants did enough keystone cops stuff to not be overly sympathetic. I also am very wary of sounding like Redskins fans and blaming the refs for every loss.

But the Giants got screwed today.


Very nice breakdown Fatman.

Even outside of the robbery of today, the NFL has completely ruined their games and product. There is zero flow or momentum to games anymore. Even when a big play occurs, fans, players and coaches are bracing for a flag. I can’t even fathom how badly they have screwed things up.

They lost a ton of veteran refs this year which has taken a toll. But something needs to be done. I’m a die hard sports fan and love the Giants, but this has become hard to watch. They have ruined the product.
Worst game I have ever saw officiated  
The 12th Man : 10/7/2018 9:37 pm : link
This team should be 3-2. We should never have lost that game it was stolen from us the league needs to apologize and fine these refs. We have have been absolutely screwed for weeks in a row. Getting tired of this.
RE: Worst game I have ever saw officiated  
Jimmy Googs : 10/7/2018 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14112687 The 12th Man said:
Quote:
This team should be 3-2. We should never have lost that game it was stolen from us the league needs to apologize and fine these refs. We have have been absolutely screwed for weeks in a row. Getting tired of this.


We screwed today and it was worth 2 games??
Can't the Giants request a measure  
Knineteen : 10/7/2018 9:39 pm : link
when first down plays are close? Giants should have requested that on the 3rd down play. That would have at least given time for the booth to review.

But based on what we saw on TV, it would have been awfully difficult to overturn that call. The ball was pretty much touching the yellow first down line on the screen.
RE: Don't worry  
VinegarPeppers : 10/7/2018 9:47 pm : link
And on IR by game 14.


In comment 14112605 B in ALB said:
Quote:
Olivier Vernon will be back by Week 13.
RE: RE: Don't worry  
ChaChing : 10/7/2018 9:55 pm : link
In comment 14112719
Quote:
B in ALB said:
Olivier Vernon will be back by Week 13.

VinegarPeppers said:
And on IR by game 14.

Nice, I can't wait! So we're sure to lead the league in QB pressures Week 13.
RE: What should bother people..  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 10/7/2018 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14112415 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is a lot of these flags were thrown late. Very late.

On the illegal contact flag that was picked up, the ball was incomplete and almost at rest in the end zone when he flung the flag up the field.


This was the one at the end when the flag was thrown 5 seconds after the ball had already bounced in the end zone? I was incredulous.
That was the one..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/7/2018 10:06 pm : link
I turned to my son and said the game's over if they call another BS penalty. And it would've at that point. Would've been 1st down with 2:20 left.

As the ref ran in, another one stepped up and made an incomplete sign and they picked up the flag for no illegal contact.

Seemed almost like the one guy was saying "That's too blatant to make up!!" :)
Fat Man,  
Leg of Theismann : 10/7/2018 10:23 pm : link
I remember last week we had to argue with a couple of our fellow fans on this board about why the refs also directly impacted the loss last week too. I’m not even usually the type to complain about officiating as I believe fans can be biased and every team gets hurt by bad calls, but last week was the first time I was literally depressed about how much the refs impacted the game, particularly on missing the holding/tripping of Tomlinson when the Saints were backed up on the goal line. It’s amazing to think this game was somehow even worse than last week.

So many on this board talking about “blow up the team and start from scratch” tonight, and while that’s already ridiculous to say when we’re only 5 games into a completely new regime, i’d also say that if just a couple of those awful calls last week and this week had actually been gotten right the Giants would be 3-2 right now. Fans tend to focus on the negative plays by players when their team loses and the positive plays when they win, but the reality is that every team has good and bad plays every game and the outcome often comes down to just 2-3 plays going a particular way. It sucks when those 2-3 plays have nothing to do with the teams performance and everything to do with the officials. All I know is despite imperfect play this team HAS played well enough to win the last 2 weeks and would have won if the officiating was even close to being even. It’s not just 1-2 bad calls/no-calls, it’s been more like at least 5 or 6 in both games with every single bad call going in favor of the opposing team, and the calls have come at pivotal points in the game when it is too late for the team to overcome the shitty officiating.
I tried to..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/7/2018 10:30 pm : link
think of calls that might've been perceived as BS by the Panthers fans and I came up with the replay of a catch that was ruled incomplete, but looked like the guy had it.

Couldn't really think of any others.
RE: Matt...  
Matt M. : 10/7/2018 10:35 pm : link
In comment 14112442 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the spot can be challenged, but it has to be a booth review.

It didn't even look close to being a 1st down, so I don't know how it wasn't.
IT can't be challenged inside 2 minutes, so as you point out, it has to come from the booth. How did they not review it?!
Jackrabbit at his locker after the game.  
BlueHurricane : 10/7/2018 11:10 pm : link
Answer to every question

“We need better referees.”

I don’t know how these guys don’t lose their mind in the best of battle and knock one of these shit heads out. I’m sorry. Today it would have been justified.
*heat of battle  
BlueHurricane : 10/7/2018 11:11 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Matt...  
Matt M. : 10/8/2018 7:54 am : link
In comment 14112836 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 14112442 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the spot can be challenged, but it has to be a booth review.
It didn't even look close to being a 1st down, so I don't know how it wasn't.

IT can't be challenged inside 2 minutes, so as you point out, it has to come from the booth. How did they not review it?!
Better yet, even without a review, how was there not even a measurement? Even with the friendly spot, it wasn't clearly a first down, so how was there no measurement regardless of a review?
Boger and his crew never fail  
JonC : 10/8/2018 7:59 am : link
to be absolutely clueless.

If the Giants just had a couple fewer self-inflicted stupid they would've won the game anyway.
All that said, would it have made much of a difference?  
Matt M. : 10/8/2018 8:47 am : link
If they measured, the Panthers would already have their FG unit on the field. There would be a running clock to deal with and a rushed snap. But, they still would have had a decent shot.
Can’t play sloppy ball  
Dave in PA : 10/8/2018 8:51 am : link
The refs are going to blow multiple calls per game, each game, every year. This is a certainty. The Giants have to put themselves in a better position to not be losing because of these calls. That might be a tall order, but it’s reality. Tighten up some of these mental mistakes are this can be a winning football team.
Matt..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/8/2018 8:52 am : link
I half believe that the Panthers might even run a play to get the first down there. I think the last thing Rivera was planning to do was to try a 63 yard FG.
RE: Matt..  
Matt M. : 10/8/2018 8:54 am : link
In comment 14113153 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I half believe that the Panthers might even run a play to get the first down there. I think the last thing Rivera was planning to do was to try a 63 yard FG.
That I don't know. I was surprised myself they went for the 63 yarder. I would have thought with the first, they try one quick out right at the sidelines first. But, they went for the kick and nailed it.
And while the final...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/8/2018 9:01 am : link
spit in the face was the McCaffery spot, the refs bailed out the Panthers on a 4th down stop and two 3rd down stops on drives that led to 17 Panther points.

That doesn't take into account other bad calls on drives that we held them.

I'll wonder too, if Shepard gets a facemask call, the giants have a 1st and 10 from the 35 yard line, and perhaps they aren't calling the same play that Eli threw the INT on. Bad calls even impact the flow and playcalling.
RE: And while the final...  
Matt M. : 10/8/2018 9:11 am : link
In comment 14113169 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
spit in the face was the McCaffery spot, the refs bailed out the Panthers on a 4th down stop and two 3rd down stops on drives that led to 17 Panther points.

That doesn't take into account other bad calls on drives that we held them.

I'll wonder too, if Shepard gets a facemask call, the giants have a 1st and 10 from the 35 yard line, and perhaps they aren't calling the same play that Eli threw the INT on. Bad calls even impact the flow and playcalling.
Absolutely agree. The game didn't boil down to that one bad spot. It was just the one at the very end that directly led to them being able to attempt the kick. But, there were a number of bad calls/missed calls/flags picked up that were so egregious and negatively impacted the game. That is just unacceptable. How is it 3 or 4 times already this season a flag was thrown that would have benefited the Giants in a crucial spot only to have it picked up after a conference? How does an official right near the play throw a flag for a facemask only to have an official from across the field come in and convince him to pick it up? This has happened multiple times already.
RE: Can’t play sloppy ball  
micky : 10/8/2018 9:11 am : link
In comment 14113151 Dave in PA said:
Quote:
The refs are going to blow multiple calls per game, each game, every year. This is a certainty. The Giants have to put themselves in a better position to not be losing because of these calls. That might be a tall order, but it’s reality. Tighten up some of these mental mistakes are this can be a winning football team.


Yup..this
Fate Is The Hunter  
DeepBlueJint : 10/9/2018 7:12 am : link
The Giants are 1-4.That is what they are. All this talk about refereeing, etc. is pointless. Thanks to Mara, Tisch and Reese the Giants are pathetic. Everyone wants to point out the refereeing but lets be clear about one thing. The Giants lost this game on the field early and often. Why isn't everyone complaining about Beckham's botched punt coverage and Carolina's touchdown in the end zone? Manning's bad interception late in the third quarter? What about the terrible tackling by the Giants' defense that led to Carolina's first touchdown when Curtis Samuel bounced off at least three would-be attempts on a 25-yard scoring strike from Cam Newton. And of course, we get more of Beckham's big mouth during the week. God, I wish we would have traded him for a #1. The Giants are 1-4 because they play 1-4. Relying on the referees is testing fate. In this pathetic NFL, that is like drawing to an inside straight. I can only look forward to the off season with Gettlemen getting rid of the overpaid, underplay veterans, which may include Manning, and getting another good draft including probably a top 3 pick.
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