I saw something Sunday that I have not seen in years. I did not see it in Philadelphia last year and I did not see it in Houston this year. The Eli Manning of old showed up on Sunday, the interceptions and the perfect passes. Since Coughlin was let go, Eli has been playing not to make mistakes. He cannot play that way and win. His SB MVPs and fabulous playoff runs were built on his ability to come up large in the most important moments.
I never criticize Eli outside of these forums. Outside these forums I am a card carrying member of the Eli Manning fan club. My argument against everyone using stats to claim Eli was lucky, mediocre or just along for the ride on a team with a great pass rush was that to win high pressure NFL games takes a certain intangible characteristic that Eli possessed in spades. You would have to watch him week in and week out to understand it.
I have been on this site claiming it was time to move on from Eli it was because I had not seen IT from him in so long I thought it was gone forever. He was able to summon it yesterday. It doesnt mean it is back for good but I have more hope for this team than I have in a long time. I even have hope for this season.
Watching Eli yesterday, it felt like he stopped listening to all the noise about completion percentage and not making turnovers and trusted his experience in winning and said to himself, If I am going out, I am going to go out my way and just sling it I know how I felt watching him and it felt like 2011 so much to me it hurt. Those drives at the end of the game, the magic was there.
I dont believe Sunday was definitive evidence that things are going to turn around or that Eli can repeat it. I FELT what I have been missing from Eli yesterday and it gives me hope. They can build on this. The NFL is about momentum. I believe deep in my heart, if they beat the Eagles on this short week, they will gain the confidence to become a team playing for something.
Eli is 37 and is in year 15. Things like glimmers of hope or signs aren't enough at this stage.
If he needs ideal conditions to win football games, we're spending too much money on the QB position.
It's not even his fault that we lost on Sunday. But the bottom line is we keep losing and we're a bad team still. So, if it's going to take another 2-3 years to fix this, how smart is it to keep stringing things along with Eli?
My entire argument is that there doesn't seem to be any endgame here. We're swimming against the current.
Eli is 37 and is in year 15. Things like glimmers of hope or signs aren't enough at this stage.
If he needs ideal conditions to win football games, we're spending too much money on the QB position.
It's not even his fault that we lost on Sunday. But the bottom line is we keep losing and we're a bad team still. So, if it's going to take another 2-3 years to fix this, how smart is it to keep stringing things along with Eli?
My entire argument is that there doesn't seem to be any endgame here. We're swimming against the current.
And I'm not really arguing, I'm just discussing. The tea leaves say Eli is the QB until the end of next season. Whatever happens after that, who knows. Whether we like it, whether we think it's right or wrong, whatever... That's the most likely scenario.
I do think Eli has looked good at some points. But we're hanging onto this hope that he's going to suddenly start carrying the team again or something and he's not 2011 Eli anymore.
Even when Eli played pretty well, we still lost. So, the team is obviously not well-constructed and if that's the case, we need to re-consider where we're spending our cap dollars going forward.
I don't know if that's a foregone conclusion. I think it depends how the rest of the year goes.
They can save 17M by cutting him after this year. That's a good chunk of space and if we still don't think we can compete next year, perhaps we'd be wise to re-invest those dollars into other areas of the team... like the offensive line. Or the DB depth.
They are not going to split the practice reps. They tried to do that last year and we all know how that went down.
I think the most likely scenario for people that really want a QB to replace Manning, is that the Giants like somebody enough to draft them in first two rounds this off season and groom him behind Manning next season.
I think the most likely scenario for people that really want a QB to replace Manning, is that the Giants like somebody enough to draft them in first two rounds this off season and groom him behind Manning next season.
I'm starting to think you are right. They would have to make the call in March as to not pay the roster bonus and that means doing so without knowing who his successor is.
Only way I could see it happening is is we end up with the #1 pick and we like one of the prospects or he gets hurt and KL shows he can play at this level.
Both scenarios are very unlikely.
You have to understand the poster that posted it, though... he has been critical of the guy all offseason and was right there with everybody that said Manning was done, "finito" to use Shurmur's words. Now he's starting to see a little bit of what the Giants may have been thinking and he has been swayed in his opinion a bit.
He's being piled on by the same guys he was sided with a couple months ago. If anything, it's interesting that somebody that was ardently against continuing with Manning now thinks that Manning has a little something left, something he previously did not, after watching him play.
If we lose Thursday, this season is done. It's already on life support.
If we lose Thursday, this season is done. It's already on life support.
For this season, probably... But if the team gels and rips off 5 or 6 in a row to end the season, maybe playing spoiler against some competitive teams along the way, that's something to build on for next season.
These guys need to learn to play together as a team. There are 33 new players this year out of 53, and more to come. Cohesion and repetition are important to build a team.
This is a brand new lockerroom from what we've had (I imagine the lockerroom culture the past couple of years was bad).
The majority of the 2019 Giants team is already on the roster so I'm hoping they show continued improvement through out the season.
I mean I hope they beat the eagles and go on a run but if they don't I'm still going to route for them to play better and start winning games.
And like I said, if they can get hot together for a stretch to end the season on a positive note, that can be a positive even if we end up 7-9.
This team needs positives.
I think the most likely scenario for people that really want a QB to replace Manning, is that the Giants like somebody enough to draft them in first two rounds this off season and groom him behind Manning next season.
I would clearly challenge this thinking. I would hope the threshold to cutting him isn't just a meltdown. Don't let one 30+ point game get extrapolated very far please as I can drum up a hundred data points that would mitigate that pretty easily.
I would hope the team utilizes its games in 2019 (and 2018 when they become no longer relevant) to get better at every position for the future inclusive of QB. And that may mean a change to a more mobile guy to see what that looks like, or what we can do with cap savings in 2019 by shedding Eli, or both.
In my opinion, this potential theme to keep Eli another year and groom a guy behind him in 2019 who could take over the job in 2020 is tiresome. I know we have games to play in 2018 but that formula isn't working and we are wasting seasons...how long do you want to continue this madness without doing a full-on restructuring which means the guy under center needs to be different. It also doesn't do justice to the guy being groomed b/c until he is the lead and everybody knows he is the lead, he is basically a clipboard holder.
imo...
Does the OL continue to improve? There has been significant progression from this group in my opinion. They are learning to trust one another. The progression has had a positive impact on the passing game. Run blocking should improve with more games.
If the OL continues to improve, but the qb feels pressure that is not there? That would tell us a lot about the status of Manning mentally. I have very little doubt he feels pressure that isn't there from years of hits etc, but it's possible that can be reversed. That is the information I'm waiting on.
You're mocking me because I choose to show patience for a team with all new coaches, new schemes, and a ton of new players.
Is that so far out of bounds to require mocking?
You're mocking me because I choose to show patience for a team with all new coaches, new schemes, and a ton of new players.
Is that so far out of bounds to require mocking?
Sorry, dude. This team has been to the postseason once in the last how many seasons now? And it was a one and done with a coach they have since canned. You'll have to forgive me and others if we're not in the "lets just see how all of this plays out for a few more years" camp when we've been saying that for now going on season 7 of this shit. 1-4 now, as well. And by the time they *might* have this thing fixed (which who knows how long that will take; we are currently on season 7 of trying to fix this thing), who knows how old Eli will be? Who knows how old even guys like Beckham will be since a WR's prime is shorter than a QB's. Same for a RB. I mean, like I said, we are in season 7 of trying to fix this thing. It could be another 2-3 years, it could be another 7 for all we know.
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Think about this for at least one second.
You're mocking me because I choose to show patience for a team with all new coaches, new schemes, and a ton of new players.
Is that so far out of bounds to require mocking?
Sorry, dude. This team has been to the postseason once in the last how many seasons now? And it was a one and done with a coach they have since canned. You'll have to forgive me and others if we're not in the "lets just see how all of this plays out for a few more years" camp when we've been saying that for now going on season 7 of this shit. 1-4 now, as well. And by the time they *might* have this thing fixed (which who knows how long that will take; we are currently on season 7 of trying to fix this thing), who knows how old Eli will be? Who knows how old even guys like Beckham will be since a WR's prime is shorter than a QB's. Same for a RB. I mean, like I said, we are in season 7 of trying to fix this thing. It could be another 2-3 years, it could be another 7 for all we know.
I don't think I have mentioned being patient a few more years. To me, this season requires patience, the McAdoo fiasco set this team back. We see what happens to teams in this league who switch coaches every few years. Now that's not to say a team should hold on to a bad coach just for the sake of patience, I'd say the Giants should have been more patient in their coaching decisions the last couple of times (firing tc only to replace with McAdoo). Hopefully Shurmur is a hit or we are just spinning our wheels.
The last several years (not counting 16) have been very frustrating for fans, which I get. However I don't think that means to lose sight of the current situation, which is this - this is almost a whole new team, and that in itself requires patience in my opinion.
No need to apologize, but thanks.
Good improvement?? Sorry, but I am missing the point. You are looking for our 38 year old QB to show good improvement in the role he has had for us since 2004?
To cut to the chase, his going to remain very shaky in certain games, and others he will be the same old Eli showing some nice throws and some head-scratchers.
Improve requires some changing of his spots at this point which isn't coming...
I'm not even talking about this team going to the SB. How about just looking consistently competent? Can we get there first? It's been awhile since we've been there, nevermind a SB.
I am angry over the same things you are. It seems very likely DG got his job because he still believed in Eli. He said what the owners wanted to hear. He told the owners their beloved 2 time SB winning MVP could be successful again. Can you blame them for believing that, IF DG was right that would have been a beautiful thing, to see the Giants with Manning at the helm make one more run.
While I am not surprised they believed him I am disappointed they were not more skeptical of someone telling them exactly what they wanted to hear. It immediately raises the hair on my arm, but I am always on the alert for a con.
The overwhelming amount of hard data suggested Eli was on the decline. There was reasonable subjective analysis to explain it away. I always leave open the possibility of being wrong, It allows me to still be able to learn as an older man. I saw something Sunday that might suggest the subjective reasoning could be correct. If it completely reverts back to the mean on Thursday it will identify Sunday as an outlier. Root for Eli like hell on Thursday, we could all use a victory over those fuckers and their smug fans. If we do that we are in play in the NFC east, if you don't want that go be a Jets fan.
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Manning to me has shown good improvement on focusing on where to go with the ball vs the rush, even with somewhat shaky pass pro at times.
Good improvement?? Sorry, but I am missing the point. You are looking for our 38 year old QB to show good improvement in the role he has had for us since 2004?
To cut to the chase, his going to remain very shaky in certain games, and others he will be the same old Eli showing some nice throws and some head-scratchers.
Improve requires some changing of his spots at this point which isn't coming...
Perhaps I didn't explain it well.
Manning has always had a talent to feel the rush while maintaining his focus down the field. I believe that ability lost some of its polish from continued hits, sacks, and pressure. Now I'm not talking normal defensive pressure, I'm talking about excessive pressure.
This affects a qb mentally by speeding up his clock to rush throws or rush through progressions and of course the big no no, dropping your head to see the rush instead of keeping your eyes downfield.
I think Manning has shown improvement in this area. I think he can get back to trusting the OL, which will enable him to keep his eyes downfield while not rushing through progressions or rushing throws.
My stance has been and still is until i see differently is that manning while being a part of the problem would cease being a part of the problem if the OL could provide enough protection for the qb to do his job.
The question is whether the lack of protection has scared the 'it' factor out of him permanently. If he can get that back, he can be a viable QB for this year, potentially next.
Many people have been complaining that we should have drafted a QB at 2, and are pointing to the play of Eli as evidence. That's a faulty selling point. A young QB thrown behind this line could get the 'it' factor scared out of him permanently and be ruined.
Any chance of this team being a contender rests upon building a strong OL. sans that, it doesn't matter who the QB is.
It certainly wasnt there vs Dallas or New Orleans as examples.
It certainly wasnt there vs Dallas or New Orleans as examples.
Manning when given protection is starting to produce positive results. I think before or even a short time ago, maybe the protection was there, but maybe the throw was rushed or he seemed hurried through his progressions. I think he's trusting his OL more which allow for the deeper routes to come open. This is a process, sometimes you go forward a step then back a step. I think perhaps some think that even when a battered qb gets protection he is supposed to instantly snap out of the state of mind that has been produced over time.
If you are wanting specifics, as in specific situations I don't have any for you.
Once Eli is gone... you wont be missed and neither will your trolling ways.
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With Eli at the helm is if the defense is able to reincarnate the play of the post season runs in 2007 and 2011 or what the broncos had in Peytons last season. Otherwise this team isnt getting over 500
Once Eli is gone... you wont be missed and neither will your trolling ways.
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In comment 14116543 Les in TO said:
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With Eli at the helm is if the defense is able to reincarnate the play of the post season runs in 2007 and 2011 or what the broncos had in Peytons last season. Otherwise this team isnt getting over 500
Once Eli is gone... you wont be missed and neither will your trolling ways.
Ive been here since 1995 when this was BBHP and Petes Corner. I survived and endured through the Dave Brown era and I will be here after Eli is gone. You on the other hand will likely not only be absent from here (assuming you arent banned again first) but your life will probably be without any purpose or meaning.
Ill be here sweetie when Eli is gone wondering why your posting has decreased dramatically.
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improvement that you speak of. In the second half of the 4qtr vs Carolina?
It certainly wasnt there vs Dallas or New Orleans as examples.
Manning when given protection is starting to produce positive results. I think before or even a short time ago, maybe the protection was there, but maybe the throw was rushed or he seemed hurried through his progressions. I think he's trusting his OL more which allow for the deeper routes to come open. This is a process, sometimes you go forward a step then back a step. I think perhaps some think that even when a battered qb gets protection he is supposed to instantly snap out of the state of mind that has been produced over time.
If you are wanting specifics, as in specific situations I don't have any for you.
Ok, but your comments above really just reek of a fan's undying faith in a something/somebody that no longer exists.
While you may be a really good loyal fan, you also post based on some emotional hope that time/circumstances from the past should be able to be reincarnated in the future given enough chances.
And in the end, you are most likely just going to wind up being a really good loyal disappointed fan...
Ill be here sweetie when Eli is gone wondering why your posting has decreased dramatically.
both of you are embarrassing...
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Ive been here since 1995 when this was BBHP and Petes Corner. I survived and endured through the Dave Brown era and I will be here after Eli is gone. You on the other hand will likely not only be absent from here (assuming you arent banned again first) but your life will probably be without any purpose or meaning.
Ill be here sweetie when Eli is gone wondering why your posting has decreased dramatically.
both of you are embarrassing...
We follow your lead....
Right...
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In comment 14116209 Jimmy Googs said:
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improvement that you speak of. In the second half of the 4qtr vs Carolina?
It certainly wasnt there vs Dallas or New Orleans as examples.
Manning when given protection is starting to produce positive results. I think before or even a short time ago, maybe the protection was there, but maybe the throw was rushed or he seemed hurried through his progressions. I think he's trusting his OL more which allow for the deeper routes to come open. This is a process, sometimes you go forward a step then back a step. I think perhaps some think that even when a battered qb gets protection he is supposed to instantly snap out of the state of mind that has been produced over time.
If you are wanting specifics, as in specific situations I don't have any for you.
Ok, but your comments above really just reek of a fan's undying faith in a something/somebody that no longer exists.
While you may be a really good loyal fan, you also post based on some emotional hope that time/circumstances from the past should be able to be reincarnated in the future given enough chances.
And in the end, you are most likely just going to wind up being a really good loyal disappointed fan...
First off Jimmy, I appreciate the honest reply. Second, my disappointment is only tied to my expectations. I have faced the possibility that Manning won't get back mentally to where he was and I'm fine with that. So even if I am seeing things that aren't there I still keep in mind that I certainly can be wrong which helps mitigate any disappointment.
I understand the possibility that I still don't know shit about the game, while also knowing I'm attempting to learn when given the opportunity, pending I don't let my own personal pride blind me.
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