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Devon Kennard 5th in the league with 5 sacks

NY-Fan : 10/8/2018 3:37 pm
Wonder what the difference is in Detroit.
Surely  
English Alaister : 10/8/2018 3:38 pm : link
The maths guys knew this was coming?
Difference?  
Big Blue '56 : 10/8/2018 3:42 pm : link
Hes healthy?
Probably just a hot streak  
JonC : 10/8/2018 3:44 pm : link
re-visit end of season.
healthy and allowed to do what he is good at  
hitdog42 : 10/8/2018 3:45 pm : link
instead of having pass rushers in coverage (OV, him) or DTs dropping back.

putting athletes in position to be athletes-- -shocker.
and the health part
Certainly can't be a statistical anomaly over a small sample size!  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/8/2018 3:45 pm : link
.
I'm surprised  
Joey in VA : 10/8/2018 3:58 pm : link
We cut bait on him, he'd be a natural at OLB and we wouldn't have to watch Kareem Martin. That is a bad swap so far.
JPP right behind him  
Rflairr : 10/8/2018 4:08 pm : link
Great Job DG.
RE: JPP right behind him  
Toth029 : 10/8/2018 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14114086 Rflairr said:
Quote:
Great Job DG.

Not with that contract.
kennard was oft-injured  
japanhead : 10/8/2018 4:21 pm : link
his entire career with nyg. he was never a bad player, just always hurt and couldn't be relied on
he and JPP  
JonC : 10/8/2018 4:24 pm : link
were part of a 3-win defense last season. Color me unimpressed and pleased to move forward.
Yeah. Good for him. Sincerely. JPP too.  
Beezer : 10/8/2018 4:33 pm : link
But in no way do I wish for either back.
Good to see him doing well but  
Rudy5757 : 10/8/2018 4:44 pm : link
it was time to move on. He was injured way too much to have any faith in him. He was a good player when healthy but not unreplaceable.
Romeo Okwara  
Anakim : 10/8/2018 5:07 pm : link
Detroit Lions

Verified account

@Lions

DE @RomeoND45 became the fourth Lion to record a multi-sack game this season. #OnePride
RE: Surely  
NoGainDayne : 10/8/2018 5:13 pm : link
In comment 14113996 English Alaister said:
Quote:
The maths guys knew this was coming?


Are you really going to make this joke after I Mutombo'd all of your arguments on the analytics thread? Why don't you respond there.

Why can't the Giants  
David B. : 10/8/2018 5:59 pm : link
get guys like this?
I always liked Kennard  
PatersonPlank : 10/8/2018 6:10 pm : link
.
RE: I'm surprised  
adamg : 10/8/2018 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14114044 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
We cut bait on him, he'd be a natural at OLB and we wouldn't have to watch Kareem Martin. That is a bad swap so far.
+1000 I wanted to keep Kennard. Especially since they threw the same money at a guy who showed even less in Martin. MArtin looks worse than mediocre so far.
RE: Surely  
jcn56 : 10/8/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 14113996 English Alaister said:
Quote:
The maths guys knew this was coming?


It's ok, so long as the guy who hates computers keeps picking 2nd overall we should have a team together in 5 years, tops.
Do you think he would have 5 sacks if he stayed here?  
Doomster : 10/8/2018 9:25 pm : link
Noooooooooooooooooooooo!
...  
christian : 10/8/2018 10:37 pm : link
Kennard actually has shown pass rush ability in his career. I don't think it took deep analytics to project how he would fit into a 3-4. I'm curious what was behind the Martin analysis.
RE: healthy and allowed to do what he is good at  
giantsFC : 10/8/2018 11:07 pm : link
In comment 14114009 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
instead of having pass rushers in coverage (OV, him) or DTs dropping back.

putting athletes in position to be athletes-- -shocker.
and the health part


So true. This defense is a mess
Lord Gettleman  
giantsFC : 10/8/2018 11:11 pm : link
Isnt looking so great so far. Upon reflection of some former giants he traded, or replaced w crap, or the draft picks (and supplementals) he has chosen in year one Has been scary bad and leading to severe mediocrity.

Hopefully there is a QB in this draft worth blowing a pick in after at least 3 in this past draft looking ok so far.
BJ Hill?  
LauderdaleMatty : 10/8/2018 11:51 pm : link
Carter? But DG totally sucks. And you can bet Betcher wanted some guys he knew. Not all on DG. Reese left this team w so many holes. Now we are mourning the lost of Kennard and JPP? Tampas D is shit with him.

Vernon who plays as Often as I Do for the Giants is eating of the up the space of two to 3 starters. And its all Gettlemans fault. Sure. Not the guy who passed up Boby Wagner for a kick returner. Or thought Clint Sintim was a good fit for a 4-3 D.


RE: RE: Surely  
English Alaister : 10/9/2018 7:49 am : link
In comment 14114272 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 14113996 English Alaister said:


Quote:


The maths guys knew this was coming?



Are you really going to make this joke after I Mutombo'd all of your arguments on the analytics thread? Why don't you respond there.



You didn't Mutombo shit. You said the Giants don't use enough analytics and as many pointed out to you on the thread continue to pounce on one throwaway comment and extrapolate it into a critique that I factually know to be inaccurate..I told you they use a lot more than you think but truthfully I don't know the exact detail. I can assure you there is a mountain of statistical analysis, game theory, scenario modelling etc done in the building and it goes into all decisions.

Maybe you could lay out what you would have done differently this off-season and what analysis contributed to you forming that opinion? That would be interesting to read.

My issue overall though is with the guys making basic arguments like maths says we should have taken Darnold and Gettleman would have if he wasn't still writing scouting reports with a chisel and some rock. It doesn't. Barkley is hands down the best player in the draft and I'm with the Giants that a rookie QB would have been David Carr'd behind this line and Barkley is going to make a massive difference to this team for years to come.
ha  
giantfan2000 : 10/9/2018 9:44 am : link
JPP Kennard Okwara = 12 sacks
NY Giants team = 6 sacks
RE: RE: RE: Surely  
NoGainDayne : 10/9/2018 10:01 am : link
In comment 14115210 English Alaister said:
Quote:
In comment 14114272 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


In comment 14113996 English Alaister said:


Quote:


The maths guys knew this was coming?



Are you really going to make this joke after I Mutombo'd all of your arguments on the analytics thread? Why don't you respond there.





You didn't Mutombo shit. You said the Giants don't use enough analytics and as many pointed out to you on the thread continue to pounce on one throwaway comment and extrapolate it into a critique that I factually know to be inaccurate..I told you they use a lot more than you think but truthfully I don't know the exact detail. I can assure you there is a mountain of statistical analysis, game theory, scenario modelling etc done in the building and it goes into all decisions.

Maybe you could lay out what you would have done differently this off-season and what analysis contributed to you forming that opinion? That would be interesting to read.

My issue overall though is with the guys making basic arguments like maths says we should have taken Darnold and Gettleman would have if he wasn't still writing scouting reports with a chisel and some rock. It doesn't. Barkley is hands down the best player in the draft and I'm with the Giants that a rookie QB would have been David Carr'd behind this line and Barkley is going to make a massive difference to this team for years to come.


Ok jackass. I tried to be nice and patient with you even after you indirectly called me a dick but let me break it down for you real slow like because apparently you aren't a quick one.

It doesn't matter how much game theory you say is going on in the building they aren't showing they know how to apply it on the field even like I've said many times basic game theory. Not even complex game theory. This game theory is so basic I can make these calculations in my head without any mathematical models whatsoever. I would need more complex models to answer the questions your asking but I guarantee you their more complex models are shit if they can't get this basic stuff right. Two weeks ago not taking the timeouts was poor game theory, I explained that extensively.

Now this past week before the half he takes a timeout with 2:41 left and the Panthers have the ball and one timeout. Now let me explain why this is incredibly dumb and anyone with a basic knowledge of game theory could tell you this but apparently all the Giants game theory experts that you are claiming they have (and I even addressed their personnel specifically so if you could tell me who they are that would be great) YOU DO NOT USE A TIMEOUT THERE IT IS VERY VERY DUMB. By using it then instead of letting the time run off if you go three and out on your next drive (our drive started with 2:36 left) you give the ball back to the Panthers who have already scored 20 points in the half and their field goal kicker who was making it from 65 in warmups. By using that timeout you give the Panthers two chances to stop the clock (two minute warning) and an extra 36 seconds. So even if you run 3 times they can get the ball back with ~1:20 left. Saving your timeout makes it extremely likely that they don't get another possession, I won't do that math for you, hopefully you aren't too much of an idiot to do it yourself. If you let the clock run, you save your timeout for when and if you need it and drastically reduce the chance they have an opportunity to get the ball back and score points. I do believe we were rushing on the field to quickly get off a field goal because the clock was running, what if we ran out of time in the half in order to essentially raise the probability that Carolina would score? Real smart.

I know you must have eaten a lot of paint chips as a child but do yourself a favor and don't look for opportunities to be stupid.
And also one more time because of your poor  
NoGainDayne : 10/9/2018 11:52 am : link
reading comprehension or perhaps engaging in arguments where you don't read the other side.

This isn't about maths as you so eloquently put it say this or maths say that. It is about having the best tools to support the best possible decisions by illustrating and understanding probabilities. Some teams are demonstrating a grasp and application of advanced game theory and tools and we aren't demonstrating a value of the basic.

I'm going to go even farther and say that you are part of the problem. As long as idiots like you that are apparently in contact with Giants senior management continue to take what they say as face value while ignoring what is right in front of your eyes we will fall further behind. Stop pretending you are informed on this and not just some Dave Gettleman patsy trying to convince others that this isn't a problem. While I will admit Dave Gettleman is a great traditional personnel guy we are fast leaving the traditional world and many teams have broken serious ground into a new world.

He might yet make us competitive in the next few years while also setting us back a few more technology wise. Let that set in and maybe talk to the people you know in the building and tell them to stop messing up very simple game theory concepts so we can increase our chances of winning. We have 4 wins in the last 2 years. Why on earth are you acting like there isn't reason to be worried?
Good work getting your personal attacks in  
English Alaister : 10/9/2018 6:06 pm : link
That was a pretty disappointing response. I logged on to this thread to see if you had anything interesting to say. You'll understand if I decline to get involved in this playground BS (or alternatively accuse me of running from your superior argument) but I'm certainly never going to waste my time debating someone who can't be remotely civil. Cheers.
EA  
Go Terps : 10/9/2018 6:36 pm : link
Quote:
I can assure you there is a mountain of statistical analysis, game theory, scenario modelling etc done in the building and it goes into all decisions.


Evidently not when it comes to properly using timeouts or managing the clock. Where were the game theory and scenario modelling when Coughlin completely ruined what should have been an opening day win in Dallas in 2015? Or even last week when Shurmur didn't know to take a timeout...something that a kid with an XBOX and a copy of Madden would know to do?
The issue  
English Alaister : 10/9/2018 7:13 pm : link
Is really one of how much you let your coaches coach.

To be clear I'm not arguing their to use is exemplary. I'm just saying they go through this and coaches then make calls.

The math may have said call timeouts against the Saints for example but a) It's not clear what the maths says with Beckham in the locker room and no Engram b) even if it says call it and try for a score the coach gets to override if he had a different feel and most orgs feel that is fair given the job these guys have is tough enough. I think on that one Shurmur mea culpa'd.

This is like the old Bill Simmons stuff about Mike Smith... he needs to hire a Madden playing teenager to help him call timeouts. A lot of coaches get this stuff wrong routinely for a number of reasons. It's just rarely that they haven't seen the math. So what do you do about that?
RE: Good work getting your personal attacks in  
jcn56 : 10/9/2018 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14116294 English Alaister said:
Quote:
That was a pretty disappointing response. I logged on to this thread to see if you had anything interesting to say. You'll understand if I decline to get involved in this playground BS (or alternatively accuse me of running from your superior argument) but I'm certainly never going to waste my time debating someone who can't be remotely civil. Cheers.


That's a pretty sad post considering your initial post on this thread. Seems like you can dish out the snark but certainly can't take it.
RE: RE: RE: Surely  
mrvax : 10/9/2018 7:31 pm : link
In comment 14115210 English Alaister said:
Quote:


You didn't Mutombo shit. You said the Giants don't use enough analytics and as many pointed out to you on the thread continue to pounce on one throwaway comment and extrapolate it into a critique that I factually know to be inaccurate..I told you they use a lot more than you think but truthfully I don't know the exact detail. I can assure you there is a mountain of statistical analysis, game theory, scenario modelling etc done in the building and it goes into all decisions.

Maybe you could lay out what you would have done differently this off-season and what analysis contributed to you forming that opinion? That would be interesting to read.

My issue overall though is with the guys making basic arguments like maths says we should have taken Darnold and Gettleman would have if he wasn't still writing scouting reports with a chisel and some rock. It doesn't. Barkley is hands down the best player in the draft and I'm with the Giants that a rookie QB would have been David Carr'd behind this line and Barkley is going to make a massive difference to this team for years to come.


Well said, mate!
RE: The issue  
Go Terps : 10/9/2018 7:34 pm : link
In comment 14116335 English Alaister said:
Quote:
It's just rarely that they haven't seen the math. So what do you do about that?


How about spend more time learning the math, understanding game scenarios, and applying that to live games and less time with your face buried in a laminated sheet covered with a thousand different plays? That was the first thing that annoyed me about the Shurmur hire...we just fired a guy in McAdoo that was also an offensive play caller first and a coach second.

Total understanding of time and score are fundamental to winning football games. It has to be a top priority..."not learning the math" is not acceptable. If the coach can't "learn the math", fire him and hire one that does.
RE: Good work getting your personal attacks in  
NoGainDayne : 10/9/2018 8:36 pm : link
In comment 14116294 English Alaister said:
Quote:
That was a pretty disappointing response. I logged on to this thread to see if you had anything interesting to say. You'll understand if I decline to get involved in this playground BS (or alternatively accuse me of running from your superior argument) but I'm certainly never going to waste my time debating someone who can't be remotely civil. Cheers.


What on earth made you think I was interested in a debate?

I do see that you are trying to frame it as one but you are the only one interested in doing that.

You are harping this generic jargon from a $3.3 billion dollar entity failing to demonstrate any knowledge of basic game theory and computer science concepts critical to its core product. Winning, which if you can believe it comes from playing the best odds to win. All this while other teams are demonstrating advanced capabilities. There are not sides to this debate so i'm afraid you are correct, it is not worth debating. And news flash, it wasn't my intention to have you continuing to spout this baseless perspective as if it were a valid one to hold.

I apologize that my name calling offended your delicate constitution after you called me a dick. However, you keep trumpeting this rhetoric like we have some secret operation that I do not have the clearance to hear about. What are you envisioning here? A google co-founded skunksworks that somehow cant demonstrate the basic principles of the math and science it needs to be built on? Also this operation is so stealthy no one can even tie its affiliation to the Giants. Wow it must be some truly groundbreaking shit they are working on to keep it that secret.

No I dont care to hear your flimsy arguments anymore. You are making it like there are two narratives here that fans can chose to believe. Thats some dangerous Luddism that isnt going to get us any closer to fixing this problem. No one should stand for that. Not without further evidence on your side.

You know what else is especially laughable? The fact that you won't present any real facts and are demanding more and more from me? Are you in the front office or something? The Giants cant even demonstrate a base capacity for something that can mathematically alter their expected wins and you are suggesting that I put up even ideas for a system like this on the internet. Perhaps you'd like a player evaluation and ROI based asset allocation architecture? Do you think I should throw in something that can structure the contracts to optimize players to the cap?

You are right I normally would not resort to name calling but I normally don't encounter people spreading dubiously proven arguments to support leaders that it doesn't look like from the results alone should be supported. Someone that continues to do this in the face of strong logic against their arguments.

Yes for the love of god please see yourself out of this "debate" and any others where you want to "debate" like this. You are saying my "superior argument" like it is some kind of insult to me. No it's not superior because you walked away, it's superior because you haven't actually made an argument with anything backing it.

And no I don't need to call you names to prove my points but I will give you your well earned 2nd Mutombo.



RE: The issue  
NoGainDayne : 10/9/2018 9:20 pm : link
In comment 14116335 English Alaister said:
Quote:
Is really one of how much you let your coaches coach.

To be clear I'm not arguing their to use is exemplary. I'm just saying they go through this and coaches then make calls.

The math may have said call timeouts against the Saints for example but a) It's not clear what the maths says with Beckham in the locker room and no Engram b) even if it says call it and try for a score the coach gets to override if he had a different feel and most orgs feel that is fair given the job these guys have is tough enough. I think on that one Shurmur mea culpa'd.

This is like the old Bill Simmons stuff about Mike Smith... he needs to hire a Madden playing teenager to help him call timeouts. A lot of coaches get this stuff wrong routinely for a number of reasons. It's just rarely that they haven't seen the math. So what do you do about that?


Also one more thing. This complete BS argument doesn't even hold remotely. If Shurmur had information in his ear that said go for it that he ignored because Beckham and Engram were out, then fine own that. He got asked the question after and he said "maybe" it was wrong. And then the next day on WFAN says was in fact wrong. The way he answered made it seem like it was just not thought about or it got lost. That's the beauty of having reasons for your decisions, you present them if you get it wrong and people make an effort to understand you. Again what evidence do you have that this is what happened? There is hard evidence that this wasn't the case.
RE: RE: Good work getting your personal attacks in  
English Alaister : 10/10/2018 4:28 am : link
In comment 14116342 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14116294 English Alaister said:


Quote:


That was a pretty disappointing response. I logged on to this thread to see if you had anything interesting to say. You'll understand if I decline to get involved in this playground BS (or alternatively accuse me of running from your superior argument) but I'm certainly never going to waste my time debating someone who can't be remotely civil. Cheers.



That's a pretty sad post considering your initial post on this thread. Seems like you can dish out the snark but certainly can't take it.


I don't think the two are remotely comparable. I've not said anything personally to anyone on this thread and I'm expected to accept someone ranting on about eating paint chips as a child. No...that's just a waste of my time.

I've always liked your posts across the 20 years we've both been contributing to this board but I think you're wrong on this one.
RE: RE: The issue  
English Alaister : 10/10/2018 5:18 am : link
In comment 14116370 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14116335 English Alaister said:


Quote:


It's just rarely that they haven't seen the math. So what do you do about that?



How about spend more time learning the math, understanding game scenarios, and applying that to live games and less time with your face buried in a laminated sheet covered with a thousand different plays? That was the first thing that annoyed me about the Shurmur hire...we just fired a guy in McAdoo that was also an offensive play caller first and a coach second.

Total understanding of time and score are fundamental to winning football games. It has to be a top priority..."not learning the math" is not acceptable. If the coach can't "learn the math", fire him and hire one that does.


I totally agree that I don't like coaches calling plays for that very reason. A 2 minute drill is a chaotic thing and it needs a clear mind.

I just question the maths is a silver bullet. Andy Reid is a huge analytics guy, works with Mike Frazier on all this stuff (and both the Philly and KC org is also very strong on it generally) but I'd argue he is the worst clock management coach I've ever seen. If the argument is strong and trusted maths depts = efficient TO use why is Reid so bad when he has one?

Likewise, the Falcons are considered to be at the top of the NFL field in analytics but Mike Smith and Dan Quinn have consistently been awful at TO usage.
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