would have been surprised if they found a trading partner, even for a seventh. They only got a seventh for Jones. He can play, and Minnesota needed a center. Draft picks are precious.
I kind of laughed at the bit about them not finding a trading partner. Like anyone's going to give up even a late round pick for a disgruntled player who failed at both tackle spots.
This is what happens when you ignore key positions for years
thought he was worthy of such a high pick, and make sure they're gone.
I know the HC/FO are gone - but the scouts remained mostly intact. If they haven't done a thorough accounting to determine whether or not any of those guys missed heavily in the past few years, we're just not going to see any improvement even if the other faces have changed.
RE: Just need to figure out which of the people in the FO
thought he was worthy of such a high pick, and make sure they're gone.
I know the HC/FO are gone - but the scouts remained mostly intact. If they haven't done a thorough accounting to determine whether or not any of those guys missed heavily in the past few years, we're just not going to see any improvement even if the other faces have changed.
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
In the 2015 draft, everyone knew the #Giants wanted Brandon Scherff. When the #Redskins took him at #5, Jerry Reese panicked & reached to select Ereck Flowers 9th overall. He did the same in 2016 with Eli Apple after the #Bears jumped in front to get Leonard Floyd.
years. I'd suggest that, before Hernandez, Pugh was the only reasonably appropriate OL we've taken in a decade. (FYI,I always saw Richburg as an undersized C, not worthy of a 2nd round pick.)
Bisnowaty, Flowers, Hart, Richburg, Pugh, Herman, Brewer, Petrus. We have to go back to 2009 to get to Will Beatty, and I'd argue that even he didn't merit a late 2nd rounder.
thought he was worthy of such a high pick, and make sure they're gone.
I know the HC/FO are gone - but the scouts remained mostly intact. If they haven't done a thorough accounting to determine whether or not any of those guys missed heavily in the past few years, we're just not going to see any improvement even if the other faces have changed.
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
In the 2015 draft, everyone knew the #Giants wanted Brandon Scherff. When the #Redskins took him at #5, Jerry Reese panicked & reached to select Ereck Flowers 9th overall. He did the same in 2016 with Eli Apple after the #Bears jumped in front to get Leonard Floyd.
Be careful of your sources.
Giants/everyone knew Scherff would be gone before #9.
for Reece and Co has got to be the one of the worst draft classes in NFL history. There is ONE player (Collins) that was worth a damn.
FLowers - Collins - Owa - Mykkle Thompson - Geremy Davis
That is a collection of yuck.
This draft did him in.
There a busts and then there are busts. 10th player in the entire draft? We may be thrilled he is gone, but this is a disaster.
Its been a disaster.. were they going to resign him even if he was on the team the whole year.. no.. they gave him a shot.. he sucked.. they cut bait..
but most of the draft publications had him as a first rounder.
The worst thing to happen to him, beyond being drafted that high, was for Beatty to get hurt and have him inserted into the starting lineup from day 1. He obviously doesn't have the mental makeup to withstand that kind of adversity, and it showed.
RE: RE: Just need to figure out which of the people in the FO
thought he was worthy of such a high pick, and make sure they're gone.
I know the HC/FO are gone - but the scouts remained mostly intact. If they haven't done a thorough accounting to determine whether or not any of those guys missed heavily in the past few years, we're just not going to see any improvement even if the other faces have changed.
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
In the 2015 draft, everyone knew the #Giants wanted Brandon Scherff. When the #Redskins took him at #5, Jerry Reese panicked & reached to select Ereck Flowers 9th overall. He did the same in 2016 with Eli Apple after the #Bears jumped in front to get Leonard Floyd.
Don't forget Muscle Hamster/Wilson. Never seen a GM get jumped so much, maybe someone in the FO blabbed too much.
RE: This is what happens when you ignore key positions for years
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Not sure you should include RG3 because he showed such promise his rookie year (I thought he was overrated that year, but still) and his coach got him injured.
Trent Richardson is a really bad one, but then they were somehow able to unload him for a high pick!
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
I would not put RG3 on the list at all ..he got hurt and never recovered. The guy was brilliant as a rookie and should have only gotten better.
Looks like Pugh is struggling for the Cards at RG and Richburg has been associated with a concussion and a knee injury which has kept him in and out of practices/games with SF. In AZ, they are lamenting that Iupati and Pugh used to be "top ranked G's by PFF" but are not living up to it and are part of the worst OL in the league.
A guy who follows all Syracuse players in the NFL says "Pugh needs to start earning that big paycheck".
I know - who cares. But both of these guys rubbed me the wrong way and I was shocked they got huge paydays. Pugh still a lockerroom lawyer with nothing to back it up. It looks like both guys are doing to their current teams what they did here. Coach killers.
I was all for keeping him around. He has size, and plenty of NFL experience at a very young age. Give him a golf clap, and let's move on. I wish him his health, and no ill will, but as far as another team signing him, I could give a shit if he ever plays again. If he does play again, and do well, it will be because the rest of the line around him is good, not because of him. Goodbye.
Looks like Pugh is struggling for the Cards at RG and Richburg has been associated with a concussion and a knee injury which has kept him in and out of practices/games with SF. In AZ, they are lamenting that Iupati and Pugh used to be "top ranked G's by PFF" but are not living up to it and are part of the worst OL in the league.
A guy who follows all Syracuse players in the NFL says "Pugh needs to start earning that big paycheck".
I know - who cares. But both of these guys rubbed me the wrong way and I was shocked they got huge paydays. Pugh still a lockerroom lawyer with nothing to back it up. It looks like both guys are doing to their current teams what they did here. Coach killers.
It's hard to quantify what if any negative impact Flower's presence had on the team.
My guess, is that the coaches, front office and a lot of players all had had enough of Flowers, and he likely did something recently that was the straw that broke the camels back.
These guys are professionals, but they are also people who get pissed off and stressed like everyone else.
I think Flowers being gone is going to be a positive jolt to that locker room.
What about Tom Coughlin??? His name is written all over the pick (he's much more up Coughlin's ally than Reese's)!
Well, here's his chance to pick up his old favorite for nothing. Just like all the other ex-Giants you've predicted would sign with Jax- who has taken exactly none. What's that tell you about who was in charge of personnel. Evidence is right in front of your eyes but you persist in error.
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Not sure you should include RG3 because he showed such promise his rookie year (I thought he was overrated that year, but still) and his coach got him injured.
Trent Richardson is a really bad one, but then they were somehow able to unload him for a high pick!
Lol wasn't it Indy that traded for him? The only FO worse than ours, turned Luck into noodle arm.
I'm mad at the people that evaluated him and thought it was a good idea to draft him 9th overall.
Agree... it is not as if they guy was going to turn down the rookie contract. I feel badly for him in a strange way. Such high expectations set for him and he was not that person. Does not mean he did not play a part in his demise. He would still be on the roster if he could be a solid backup anywhere on the line and if his attitude was where it needed to be.
RE: Does anyone else think this positively impacts the locker room?
It's hard to quantify what if any negative impact Flower's presence had on the team.
My guess, is that the coaches, front office and a lot of players all had had enough of Flowers, and he likely did something recently that was the straw that broke the camels back.
These guys are professionals, but they are also people who get pissed off and stressed like everyone else.
I think Flowers being gone is going to be a positive jolt to that locker room.
Bingo David. The guy has about the worst attitude you could ever imagine. A big, surly intimidating looking dude with massive weight room strength who was combative to coaches and players who tried to help him and almost a mute-like antisocialness about him. Sneering at the world. Remember all the reports about him and Flaherty not getting along and the Giants firing Flaherty. It's unreal. He's uncoachable.
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
I would not put RG3 on the list at all ..he got hurt and never recovered. The guy was brilliant as a rookie and should have only gotten better.
Greg Robinson was picked #2 so belongs on this list. And you're list is actually kind of long for only going back to 2012 especially when you consider it's too early to consider 2017 guys a bust.
RE: Let's face it, our drafting of offensive linemen has been awful for
years. I'd suggest that, before Hernandez, Pugh was the only reasonably appropriate OL we've taken in a decade. (FYI,I always saw Richburg as an undersized C, not worthy of a 2nd round pick.)
Bisnowaty, Flowers, Hart, Richburg, Pugh, Herman, Brewer, Petrus. We have to go back to 2009 to get to Will Beatty, and I'd argue that even he didn't merit a late 2nd rounder.
This + 1,000. It's why the team still can't effectively run the ball. You can't undo years and years of horrible OL drafting in one offseason. Perhaps DG missed/overpaid on Omameh, but what was he supposed to do for the RG spot?
It's also a perfect illustration of how you should never, ever reach for a need over value. That type of drafting sets you back years, especially in the first two rounds. Remember that come draft day in 2019 when many on BBI will be clamoring for a QB no matter what.
for Reece and Co has got to be the one of the worst draft classes in NFL history. There is ONE player (Collins) that was worth a damn.
FLowers - Collins - Owa - Mykkle Thompson - Geremy Davis
That is a collection of yuck.
This draft did him in.
One really is hard pressed to name which year was Jerry Reese's worst draft class. There are so many to choose from.
for Reece and Co has got to be the one of the worst draft classes in NFL history. There is ONE player (Collins) that was worth a damn.
FLowers - Collins - Owa - Mykkle Thompson - Geremy Davis
That is a collection of yuck.
This draft did him in.
One really is hard pressed to name which year was Jerry Reese's worst draft class. There are so many to choose from.
Personally, I'd go with 2012 or 2013
RE: Does anyone else think this positively impacts the locker room?
It's hard to quantify what if any negative impact Flower's presence had on the team....
What sticks in my mind, and has since the Saints' game, were the pre-game shots of Flowers munching sunflower seeds (or something) in front of the Giants' bench, and he looked completely good, totally in a comfort zone, at not being called to the OL trenches. It has been my feeling since the summer that EF had completely shut down on the team, his role, and the FO, and only DR kept him 'upright and proper' in terms of a potential career after the Giants. It comes now a bit earlier than we expected.
Just had awful players forced on him. I hear that in the war room he expressed his firm belief that Flowers would be a bust. You wouldn't believe the verbal lashing he took from Reese who promptly sent him to his room with no supper. I also hear that Ross spat in his face and laughed.
If they had hit on some of the failures discussed here, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to select Barkley, and probably not some of the other players drafted. Would we have been better off hitting on Flowers pick? I don't know...maybe then we'd be stuck in purgatory of mediocrity, perhaps doing just good enough for Reece and McAdoo to keep their jobs. That's exactly what the selection of Odell did --prolonged the inevitable by covering up the stink around him.
This is why I'm not clinging to W's and L's like so many others on this board. Had that kicker missed the FG last week, sure it would have felt good, but so did all the wins two years ago, and where did that leave us? It left them with a false sense of self confidence. Hopefully at 1-4 the reality is finally setting, because I'm not convinced it had before. And that's a dangerous thing. Yes, quick turnarounds can happen in this league, but not every bad team is on the brink of a turnaround. Most require a rebuild. When the quick turnaround happen, it's usually with teams that already have talent which had not yet come together and then the pieces suddenly come together at one. The Rams did this twice, but make no mistake, there was talent on those rosters even before it was finally reflected in the record. From top to bottom, this roster doesn't have the talent yet. At least not in the areas they need it.
that he feels that Flowers is just the beginning of the exodus of players per a source. Who else could be let go mid season?
I would consider trading off some assets, if they have any. They already spent what looks to be a high 3rd on a CB. Where is the rebuild going to come from?
BBI wasn't exactly clamoring for him prior to the draft. That being said, almost no one wanted Ereck Flowers.
He is the very definition of a bust. Overdrafted, underdeveloped, and every bit as immature as his age. If he becomes a long-term starter somewhere else, I'll be shocked.
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Also from Flowers' draft:
1. Winston
2. Mariota
3. Fowler
4. Cooper
7. White
While Flowers is arguably a bigger bust than all but White, the other 4 have been major disappointments and the Winston/Mariota picks show the difficulty of landing a top QB. And those picks likely set back those rebuilds by several years.
Not sure what happened to Cooper. Looked like a future star WR his rookie season and even his 2nd season but his play has really fallen off.
He had to live with the absolute crapshow that Reese (and Coughlin) left behind. Where Shurmur (A.K.A. Schumer) has Gettleman clearing out the dead wood, McAdoo had to use this dead wood and it became a millstone around his neck.
He had to live with the absolute crapshow that Reese (and Coughlin) left behind. Where Shurmur (A.K.A. Schumer) has Gettleman clearing out the dead wood, McAdoo had to use this dead wood and it became a millstone around his neck.
Fuck him. McAdoo sucked and will never be an NFL head coach again. Getting coffee for Rodgers turned out not to be the best training to be a head coach. Anyone who feels sorry for that incompetent needs to have their head examined.
How is it that none of these guys developed much? Thats my issue with Flowers. Yes, he got rushed into the lineup. Ok. I dont expect rookies to dominate. But with EF he SEEMS to have all the tools. Size, reach, etc. But his technique just looks horrible and doesnt improve no matter what. New coaches, get in better shape in off season, work with new OLT we brought in...and still hes reaching, flailing, bending...just seems he cant execute. Its like the opposite of a gamer.
It makes me think we evaluate them wrong. I saw some analysis that ranked athleticism of players a while back. It noted how low EF was on the ratings, and how every DT/DE he would face was ranked higher than him on DT/DE athleticism rankings. Basically it suggested he was overmatched from the start, and his technique only made it worse.
Our scouts have to do better. I hope DGs new system does that. Like, if I had to pick 1 thing that I had to have in a QB, it would be accuracy. You cant seem to teach it. (Its not the only thing I want, but if theyre not very accurate - to NFL standards, not just college - theyre not on my list.) For OL, there has to be something like that. Maybe its athleticism for their size thats the key must have.
How is it that none of these guys developed much? Thats my issue with Flowers. Yes, he got rushed into the lineup. Ok. I dont expect rookies to dominate. But with EF he SEEMS to have all the tools. Size, reach, etc. But his technique just looks horrible and doesnt improve no matter what. New coaches, get in better shape in off season, work with new OLT we brought in...and still hes reaching, flailing, bending...just seems he cant execute. Its like the opposite of a gamer.
It makes me think we evaluate them wrong. I saw some analysis that ranked athleticism of players a while back. It noted how low EF was on the ratings, and how every DT/DE he would face was ranked higher than him on DT/DE athleticism rankings. Basically it suggested he was overmatched from the start, and his technique only made it worse.
Our scouts have to do better. I hope DGs new system does that. Like, if I had to pick 1 thing that I had to have in a QB, it would be accuracy. You cant seem to teach it. (Its not the only thing I want, but if theyre not very accurate - to NFL standards, not just college - theyre not on my list.) For OL, there has to be something like that. Maybe its athleticism for their size thats the key must have.
Your 1st/2nd paragraphs contradict each other. IF he "ha(s) all the tools" then how is he ranked lower than most DT/DE in athleticism?
IMV, he had the physical traits necessary, but seemed to lack the work ethic/instincts to succeed. Multiple OL coaches with solid resumes failed to get through to him and even with a pro like Pugh (who was a very good LG when healthy) next to him, Flowers still seemed to struggle with adjustments/communication.
Broncos talking heads want Flowers to replace Garrett Boles
I didn't want the Giants to pick Brown because he reminded me so much of Flowers. Same body, same lazy approach...just didn't look like he gave a damn. HE may well, but the visual is a bit indifferent.
He's from the same mold. Starting LT in college, BACKUP RT for the Ravens.
RE: MANY had the Giants picking Flowers in the 9 spot...
...and most here at BBI were psyched to have him. I remember the optimism with our Tackles set long term with him and likely Hart as well.
He was NOT a reach.
Eli Apple - yeah, lots of broken remotes that day.
A lot of Monday Morning QB'ing here on what was considered an OBVIOUS pick to most that draft day.
Wasn't most of BBI pissed that we passed on Peat for Flowers? Not that Peat's lived up to the draft hype either, but at least he was able to transition inside to LG.
Flowers was as much a Coughlin pick as he was a Reese pick. Pretty clear from the post-draft presser comments and Coughlins lineman over the years that he liked Flowers a lot as an OT.
I know its not what the St. Coughlin crowd want to believe but its true. I get that the GM has final say and probably had some input but the blame can be spread wide on this one.
In comment 14115985 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...and most here at BBI were psyched to have him. I remember the optimism with our Tackles set long term with him and likely Hart as well.
He was NOT a reach.
A lot of Monday Morning QB'ing here on what was considered an OBVIOUS pick to most that draft day. ////////
Wasn't most of BBI pissed that we passed on Peat for Flowers? Not that Peat's lived up to the draft hype either, but at least he was able to transition inside to LG.
Several things going on in that post and the one it replied to: Yes, Flowers was an 'OBVIOUS' pick, because like Pugh before him (7th OL taken in his draft), Reese/Ross had been so inept at rebuilding or committing to re-build the OL from 2011 on that the pick reeked of desperation, Giants had to go OL, so yes, it was an obvious pick for an enormous need that even today is not satisfactorily filled. Same with Pugh.
As for giants#1, I don't think so. We knew we needed OL help, and a couple of months before the draft Flowers vs. Peat was still a tossup, I believe. But then, as it became clear that the FO has zeroed in on Flowers (with Scherff? likely off the board to 'Skins)--and JonC was early and accurate in letting this be known (not saying Jon would have made that pick, only that's where war room was going), then BBI piled on the bandwagon, to ratify Reese's genius, yet again.
I knew Peat and Flowers were both big, with some saying Peat needed to get stronger, but with better technique, and Flowers with potential. Peat was taken a few slots after Flowers and has proven to be a decent OT.
He had to live with the absolute crapshow that Reese (and Coughlin) left behind. Where Shurmur (A.K.A. Schumer) has Gettleman clearing out the dead wood, McAdoo had to use this dead wood and it became a millstone around his neck.
I don't feel bad for him but you are right otherwise.
That guy was put in a no-win situation, especially last year, by injuries, an incompetent GM, and an owner who favors loyalty over results...
RE: RE: Let's face it, our drafting of offensive linemen has been awful for
years. I'd suggest that, before Hernandez, Pugh was the only reasonably appropriate OL we've taken in a decade. (FYI,I always saw Richburg as an undersized C, not worthy of a 2nd round pick.)
Bisnowaty, Flowers, Hart, Richburg, Pugh, Herman, Brewer, Petrus. We have to go back to 2009 to get to Will Beatty, and I'd argue that even he didn't merit a late 2nd rounder.
This + 1,000. It's why the team still can't effectively run the ball. You can't undo years and years of horrible OL drafting in one offseason. Perhaps DG missed/overpaid on Omameh, but what was he supposed to do for the RG spot?
It's also a perfect illustration of how you should never, ever reach for a need over value. That type of drafting sets you back years, especially in the first two rounds. Remember that come draft day in 2019 when many on BBI will be clamoring for a QB no matter what.
Pugh instead of one of the following:
DeAndre Hopkins
Alec Ogletree
Flowers instead of one of the following:
Todd Gurley
Marcus Peters
3 pro bowlers were picked literally right after the Giants picked Pugh. And each at a position of need.
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Not sure you should include RG3 because he showed such promise his rookie year (I thought he was overrated that year, but still) and his coach got him injured.
Trent Richardson is a really bad one, but then they were somehow able to unload him for a high pick!
Trent Richardson has the distinction of being a first round bust for 2 different teams!
in years 1-3 and expected his trajectory of improvement to be significant. He showed some flashes when he could set and engage. But those moments were few and far between especially against speed rushers who quickly gained leverage on him.
In fact, I feel pretty confident in saying that he actually regressed a bit from his rookie year until moving to RT this season. That's unbelievable from a #9 pick.
This is the right move for the team if for nothing other than improving the locker room and getting rid of toxicity. Losing and bad attitudes are like a cancer in the room - multiplied significantly when the team is losing.
The juice isn't worth the squeeze with this guy anymore and leads you to wonder who else in the locker room bought into the negativity. I would venture to say that we'll find out in the next few weeks with releases and more media statements. Sad state of affairs.
He was a solid player at both T and G, who was our best OL player for a while. He just wasn't worth of the #1 pick, but he did contribute. He is also still starting in the NFL.
It is amazing that Flowers is not worth keeping...
He had to live with the absolute crapshow that Reese (and Coughlin) left behind. Where Shurmur (A.K.A. Schumer) has Gettleman clearing out the dead wood, McAdoo had to use this dead wood and it became a millstone around his neck.
I don't feel bad for him but you are right otherwise.
That guy was put in a no-win situation, especially last year, by injuries, an incompetent GM, and an owner who favors loyalty over results...
Isn't "no win" a little hyperbole? He was handed a $200 million dollar defense.
He had to live with the absolute crapshow that Reese (and Coughlin) left behind. Where Shurmur (A.K.A. Schumer) has Gettleman clearing out the dead wood, McAdoo had to use this dead wood and it became a millstone around his neck.
I don't feel bad for him but you are right otherwise.
That guy was put in a no-win situation, especially last year, by injuries, an incompetent GM, and an owner who favors loyalty over results...
Isn't "no win" a little hyperbole? He was handed a $200 million dollar defense.
"$200 million" was essentially two players.
RE: It is amazing that Flowers is not worth keeping...
as a backup. Both Reese and Ross should never work in this league again.
Just thinking about Reese's press conferences where he has that smug attitude and postures as if everyone else in the room is a fucking moron.
He is clearly worth keeping if you look at him as a physical specimen. It is who he is as a person - his work ethic - that makes him a cancer in the locker room. He literally just doesn't give a shit. There should be a mechanism to take back all the money paid to someone who doesn't even try. He deserves to lose every penny paid to him by the Giants.
RE: RE: It is amazing that Flowers is not worth keeping...
as a backup. Both Reese and Ross should never work in this league again.
Just thinking about Reese's press conferences where he has that smug attitude and postures as if everyone else in the room is a fucking moron.
He is clearly worth keeping if you look at him as a physical specimen. It is who he is as a person - his work ethic - that makes him a cancer in the locker room. He literally just doesn't give a shit. There should be a mechanism to take back all the money paid to someone who doesn't even try. He deserves to lose every penny paid to him by the Giants.
I think the guaranteed rookie contracts of 1st round picks should be addressed in the next CBA. The forfeiture clause in contracts is very rarely used. The players know this. The moment he signed the contract, he is a multi-millionaire. He will have taken (not saying he earned any of the money) over $14.4M in 4 years. Even if he never works a day for the rest of his life, he should be set if he manages and invests the money.
With him getting moved to RT and knowing that he is in a contract year, he should have had all the motivation to put his best play forward. But it began when he opted to stay in Miami for the mini-camp. Once the schedule came out, he knew who the opponents were for months before the first snap of week 1. There was no secret that Dante Fowler was suspended for Week 1. He had 2 core defenders to prepare for in Calais and Yannick. If he had dedicated 10 minutes each night while stuffing his face, he would have known that Calais is not known as a speed rusher. But instead he shows his lack of preparation when instead of scouting his opponent, he demonstrates his best Karate Kid technique.
I'm mad at the people that evaluated him and thought it was a good idea to draft him 9th overall.
I know the HC/FO are gone - but the scouts remained mostly intact. If they haven't done a thorough accounting to determine whether or not any of those guys missed heavily in the past few years, we're just not going to see any improvement even if the other faces have changed.
I know the HC/FO are gone - but the scouts remained mostly intact. If they haven't done a thorough accounting to determine whether or not any of those guys missed heavily in the past few years, we're just not going to see any improvement even if the other faces have changed.
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
In the 2015 draft, everyone knew the #Giants wanted Brandon Scherff. When the #Redskins took him at #5, Jerry Reese panicked & reached to select Ereck Flowers 9th overall. He did the same in 2016 with Eli Apple after the #Bears jumped in front to get Leonard Floyd.
One of the worst draft picks in the history of the NFL>
Bisnowaty, Flowers, Hart, Richburg, Pugh, Herman, Brewer, Petrus. We have to go back to 2009 to get to Will Beatty, and I'd argue that even he didn't merit a late 2nd rounder.
Quote:
thought he was worthy of such a high pick, and make sure they're gone.
I know the HC/FO are gone - but the scouts remained mostly intact. If they haven't done a thorough accounting to determine whether or not any of those guys missed heavily in the past few years, we're just not going to see any improvement even if the other faces have changed.
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
In the 2015 draft, everyone knew the #Giants wanted Brandon Scherff. When the #Redskins took him at #5, Jerry Reese panicked & reached to select Ereck Flowers 9th overall. He did the same in 2016 with Eli Apple after the #Bears jumped in front to get Leonard Floyd.
Be careful of your sources.
Giants/everyone knew Scherff would be gone before #9.
Maybe as an OG. No way he does as an OT. Technique can be taught, but his feet of cement can't.
I'm mad at the people that evaluated him and thought it was a good idea to draft him 9th overall.
Another Jerry Reach epic fail...get him out of here pronto!
FLowers - Collins - Owa - Mykkle Thompson - Geremy Davis
That is a collection of yuck.
This draft did him in.
Still, sad.
Its been a disaster.. were they going to resign him even if he was on the team the whole year.. no.. they gave him a shot.. he sucked.. they cut bait..
smart move.. you cant fix it.. move on..
Not only was a terrible player, but a petulant individual.
Flowers can't give Philly any info, because he doesn't understand his assignments.
The worst thing to happen to him, beyond being drafted that high, was for Beatty to get hurt and have him inserted into the starting lineup from day 1. He obviously doesn't have the mental makeup to withstand that kind of adversity, and it showed.
Quote:
thought he was worthy of such a high pick, and make sure they're gone.
I know the HC/FO are gone - but the scouts remained mostly intact. If they haven't done a thorough accounting to determine whether or not any of those guys missed heavily in the past few years, we're just not going to see any improvement even if the other faces have changed.
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
In the 2015 draft, everyone knew the #Giants wanted Brandon Scherff. When the #Redskins took him at #5, Jerry Reese panicked & reached to select Ereck Flowers 9th overall. He did the same in 2016 with Eli Apple after the #Bears jumped in front to get Leonard Floyd.
Don't forget Muscle Hamster/Wilson. Never seen a GM get jumped so much, maybe someone in the FO blabbed too much.
I wouldn't say that's 100% true, Beatty was a 2nd round pick. If fact he was supposed to start at LT the year Flowers was drafted. Blame Beatty ha
He stunk, but its not his fault he was overdrafted.
^This.
Better yet, watch a team like the Seahawks or Dolphins sign him and move him to guard. ...And he plays well
This is why Reese was let go. Can't miss on the 9th pick in the draft.
Good luck Flowers.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Not sure you should include RG3 because he showed such promise his rookie year (I thought he was overrated that year, but still) and his coach got him injured.
Trent Richardson is a really bad one, but then they were somehow able to unload him for a high pick!
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
I would not put RG3 on the list at all ..he got hurt and never recovered. The guy was brilliant as a rookie and should have only gotten better.
A guy who follows all Syracuse players in the NFL says "Pugh needs to start earning that big paycheck".
I know - who cares. But both of these guys rubbed me the wrong way and I was shocked they got huge paydays. Pugh still a lockerroom lawyer with nothing to back it up. It looks like both guys are doing to their current teams what they did here. Coach killers.
A guy who follows all Syracuse players in the NFL says "Pugh needs to start earning that big paycheck".
I know - who cares. But both of these guys rubbed me the wrong way and I was shocked they got huge paydays. Pugh still a lockerroom lawyer with nothing to back it up. It looks like both guys are doing to their current teams what they did here. Coach killers.
Thanks for that update!
My guess, is that the coaches, front office and a lot of players all had had enough of Flowers, and he likely did something recently that was the straw that broke the camels back.
These guys are professionals, but they are also people who get pissed off and stressed like everyone else.
I think Flowers being gone is going to be a positive jolt to that locker room.
Quote:
Complete ineptitude.
What about Tom Coughlin??? His name is written all over the pick (he's much more up Coughlin's ally than Reese's)!
Good Luck Ereck ..maybe you get your act together
elsewhere .
Quote:
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Not sure you should include RG3 because he showed such promise his rookie year (I thought he was overrated that year, but still) and his coach got him injured.
Trent Richardson is a really bad one, but then they were somehow able to unload him for a high pick!
Lol wasn't it Indy that traded for him? The only FO worse than ours, turned Luck into noodle arm.
I'm mad at the people that evaluated him and thought it was a good idea to draft him 9th overall.
Agree... it is not as if they guy was going to turn down the rookie contract. I feel badly for him in a strange way. Such high expectations set for him and he was not that person. Does not mean he did not play a part in his demise. He would still be on the roster if he could be a solid backup anywhere on the line and if his attitude was where it needed to be.
My guess, is that the coaches, front office and a lot of players all had had enough of Flowers, and he likely did something recently that was the straw that broke the camels back.
These guys are professionals, but they are also people who get pissed off and stressed like everyone else.
I think Flowers being gone is going to be a positive jolt to that locker room.
Bingo David. The guy has about the worst attitude you could ever imagine. A big, surly intimidating looking dude with massive weight room strength who was combative to coaches and players who tried to help him and almost a mute-like antisocialness about him. Sneering at the world. Remember all the reports about him and Flaherty not getting along and the Giants firing Flaherty. It's unreal. He's uncoachable.
Quote:
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
I would not put RG3 on the list at all ..he got hurt and never recovered. The guy was brilliant as a rookie and should have only gotten better.
Greg Robinson was picked #2 so belongs on this list. And you're list is actually kind of long for only going back to 2012 especially when you consider it's too early to consider 2017 guys a bust.
Bisnowaty, Flowers, Hart, Richburg, Pugh, Herman, Brewer, Petrus. We have to go back to 2009 to get to Will Beatty, and I'd argue that even he didn't merit a late 2nd rounder.
This + 1,000. It's why the team still can't effectively run the ball. You can't undo years and years of horrible OL drafting in one offseason. Perhaps DG missed/overpaid on Omameh, but what was he supposed to do for the RG spot?
It's also a perfect illustration of how you should never, ever reach for a need over value. That type of drafting sets you back years, especially in the first two rounds. Remember that come draft day in 2019 when many on BBI will be clamoring for a QB no matter what.
Pugh instead of one of the following:
DeAndre Hopkins
Alec Ogletree
Flowers instead of one of the following:
Todd Gurley
Marcus Peters
FLowers - Collins - Owa - Mykkle Thompson - Geremy Davis
That is a collection of yuck.
This draft did him in.
One really is hard pressed to name which year was Jerry Reese's worst draft class. There are so many to choose from.
Quote:
for Reece and Co has got to be the one of the worst draft classes in NFL history. There is ONE player (Collins) that was worth a damn.
FLowers - Collins - Owa - Mykkle Thompson - Geremy Davis
That is a collection of yuck.
This draft did him in.
One really is hard pressed to name which year was Jerry Reese's worst draft class. There are so many to choose from.
Personally, I'd go with 2012 or 2013
Very few considered it a "good" pick at the time. Very few. Myself, far from the expert, I couldn't believe it. I hated this selection immediately.
I think it's just about impossible to detail the impact to the Giants. I would term it "devastating to the franchise".
Fuck.
They drafted a guy without the ability and without the desire. What a waste.
I hurts, bad ...
Because you tend to keep them around a lot longer (just hoping).
Pugh flopped at tackle because he just didn't have the physical ability (any of it); Flowers had it all except the quick feet.
Very few considered it a "good" pick at the time. Very few. Myself, far from the expert, I couldn't believe it. I hated this selection immediately.
I think it's just about impossible to detail the impact to the Giants. I would term it "devastating to the franchise".
Fuck.
They drafted a guy without the ability and without the desire. What a waste.
Yep... that's why we're at the bottom looking up. The question is: How many more years do we need to fix this f-ing mess?
This is why I'm not clinging to W's and L's like so many others on this board. Had that kicker missed the FG last week, sure it would have felt good, but so did all the wins two years ago, and where did that leave us? It left them with a false sense of self confidence. Hopefully at 1-4 the reality is finally setting, because I'm not convinced it had before. And that's a dangerous thing. Yes, quick turnarounds can happen in this league, but not every bad team is on the brink of a turnaround. Most require a rebuild. When the quick turnaround happen, it's usually with teams that already have talent which had not yet come together and then the pieces suddenly come together at one. The Rams did this twice, but make no mistake, there was talent on those rosters even before it was finally reflected in the record. From top to bottom, this roster doesn't have the talent yet. At least not in the areas they need it.
Sean Chandler and Tae Davis :D
He is the very definition of a bust. Overdrafted, underdeveloped, and every bit as immature as his age. If he becomes a long-term starter somewhere else, I'll be shocked.
Would figure they'll look to trade any non-core player they're willing to part with for draft picks and cap space.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Also from Flowers' draft:
1. Winston
2. Mariota
3. Fowler
4. Cooper
7. White
While Flowers is arguably a bigger bust than all but White, the other 4 have been major disappointments and the Winston/Mariota picks show the difficulty of landing a top QB. And those picks likely set back those rebuilds by several years.
Not sure what happened to Cooper. Looked like a future star WR his rookie season and even his 2nd season but his play has really fallen off.
Pugh, Richburg, DRC, JPP, Kennard, Webb, and Lewis haven't counted in that exodus?
D.Wilson-R.Randle-J.Hosley-A.Robinson-B.Mosley-M.McCants-M. Kuhn
2013:
J.Pugh-J.Hankins-D.Moore-R.Nassib-C.Taylor-E.Herman-M.Cox
Give me 2015 as the worst.
but Landon Collins was an absolute steal
so what is really a horrible draft ?
It makes me think we evaluate them wrong. I saw some analysis that ranked athleticism of players a while back. It noted how low EF was on the ratings, and how every DT/DE he would face was ranked higher than him on DT/DE athleticism rankings. Basically it suggested he was overmatched from the start, and his technique only made it worse.
Our scouts have to do better. I hope DGs new system does that. Like, if I had to pick 1 thing that I had to have in a QB, it would be accuracy. You cant seem to teach it. (Its not the only thing I want, but if theyre not very accurate - to NFL standards, not just college - theyre not on my list.) For OL, there has to be something like that. Maybe its athleticism for their size thats the key must have.
but Landon Collins was an absolute steal
so what is really a horrible draft ?
Yes. The other 5 picks are off the team with 2 of them not even on active rosters currently (3 if you count Flowers).
It makes me think we evaluate them wrong. I saw some analysis that ranked athleticism of players a while back. It noted how low EF was on the ratings, and how every DT/DE he would face was ranked higher than him on DT/DE athleticism rankings. Basically it suggested he was overmatched from the start, and his technique only made it worse.
Our scouts have to do better. I hope DGs new system does that. Like, if I had to pick 1 thing that I had to have in a QB, it would be accuracy. You cant seem to teach it. (Its not the only thing I want, but if theyre not very accurate - to NFL standards, not just college - theyre not on my list.) For OL, there has to be something like that. Maybe its athleticism for their size thats the key must have.
Your 1st/2nd paragraphs contradict each other. IF he "ha(s) all the tools" then how is he ranked lower than most DT/DE in athleticism?
IMV, he had the physical traits necessary, but seemed to lack the work ethic/instincts to succeed. Multiple OL coaches with solid resumes failed to get through to him and even with a pro like Pugh (who was a very good LG when healthy) next to him, Flowers still seemed to struggle with adjustments/communication.
He was NOT a reach.
Eli Apple - yeah, lots of broken remotes that day.
A lot of Monday Morning QB'ing here on what was considered an OBVIOUS pick to most that draft day.
He's from the same mold. Starting LT in college, BACKUP RT for the Ravens.
He was NOT a reach.
Eli Apple - yeah, lots of broken remotes that day.
A lot of Monday Morning QB'ing here on what was considered an OBVIOUS pick to most that draft day.
Wasn't most of BBI pissed that we passed on Peat for Flowers? Not that Peat's lived up to the draft hype either, but at least he was able to transition inside to LG.
I know its not what the St. Coughlin crowd want to believe but its true. I get that the GM has final say and probably had some input but the blame can be spread wide on this one.
In any case, good riddance.
Begging for offensive linemen for years and your boss selecting Ereck Flowers isn't a great reason to be scapegoated.
Begging for offensive linemen for years and your boss selecting Ereck Flowers isn't a great reason to be scapegoated.
Humorous*
Quote:
...and most here at BBI were psyched to have him. I remember the optimism with our Tackles set long term with him and likely Hart as well.
He was NOT a reach.
A lot of Monday Morning QB'ing here on what was considered an OBVIOUS pick to most that draft day. ////////
Wasn't most of BBI pissed that we passed on Peat for Flowers? Not that Peat's lived up to the draft hype either, but at least he was able to transition inside to LG.
As for giants#1, I don't think so. We knew we needed OL help, and a couple of months before the draft Flowers vs. Peat was still a tossup, I believe. But then, as it became clear that the FO has zeroed in on Flowers (with Scherff? likely off the board to 'Skins)--and JonC was early and accurate in letting this be known (not saying Jon would have made that pick, only that's where war room was going), then BBI piled on the bandwagon, to ratify Reese's genius, yet again.
I knew Peat and Flowers were both big, with some saying Peat needed to get stronger, but with better technique, and Flowers with potential. Peat was taken a few slots after Flowers and has proven to be a decent OT.
I don't feel bad for him but you are right otherwise.
That guy was put in a no-win situation, especially last year, by injuries, an incompetent GM, and an owner who favors loyalty over results...
Quote:
years. I'd suggest that, before Hernandez, Pugh was the only reasonably appropriate OL we've taken in a decade. (FYI,I always saw Richburg as an undersized C, not worthy of a 2nd round pick.)
Bisnowaty, Flowers, Hart, Richburg, Pugh, Herman, Brewer, Petrus. We have to go back to 2009 to get to Will Beatty, and I'd argue that even he didn't merit a late 2nd rounder.
This + 1,000. It's why the team still can't effectively run the ball. You can't undo years and years of horrible OL drafting in one offseason. Perhaps DG missed/overpaid on Omameh, but what was he supposed to do for the RG spot?
It's also a perfect illustration of how you should never, ever reach for a need over value. That type of drafting sets you back years, especially in the first two rounds. Remember that come draft day in 2019 when many on BBI will be clamoring for a QB no matter what.
Pugh instead of one of the following:
DeAndre Hopkins
Alec Ogletree
Flowers instead of one of the following:
Todd Gurley
Marcus Peters
3 pro bowlers were picked literally right after the Giants picked Pugh. And each at a position of need.
Quote:
and excluding this past year's draft - Flowers has to be considered one of the worst top 10 picks in the past 6 years.
Where he falls is debatable - here's my candidates for worst top 10 pick in the past 6 drafts in no particular order:
1.) Luke Joeckel
2.) Justin Gilbert
3.) Dion Jordan
4.) Barkevious Mingo
5.) Jonathan Cooper
6.) Chance Warmack
7.) Justin Blackmon
8.) Trent Richarson
9.) RG3
10.) Erik Flowers
Who ya got as the worst?
Not sure you should include RG3 because he showed such promise his rookie year (I thought he was overrated that year, but still) and his coach got him injured.
Trent Richardson is a really bad one, but then they were somehow able to unload him for a high pick!
Trent Richardson has the distinction of being a first round bust for 2 different teams!
In fact, I feel pretty confident in saying that he actually regressed a bit from his rookie year until moving to RT this season. That's unbelievable from a #9 pick.
This is the right move for the team if for nothing other than improving the locker room and getting rid of toxicity. Losing and bad attitudes are like a cancer in the room - multiplied significantly when the team is losing.
The juice isn't worth the squeeze with this guy anymore and leads you to wonder who else in the locker room bought into the negativity. I would venture to say that we'll find out in the next few weeks with releases and more media statements. Sad state of affairs.
Pro Football Focus
Verified account @PFF
4h4 hours ago
After allowing a league leading 180 total pressures since 2015, Ereck Flowers is out in New York.
That and 14 other stats to know from Week 5 in the NFL.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-15-stats-to-know-from-week-5-in-the-nfl
Just thinking about Reese's press conferences where he has that smug attitude and postures as if everyone else in the room is a fucking moron.
Quote:
He had to live with the absolute crapshow that Reese (and Coughlin) left behind. Where Shurmur (A.K.A. Schumer) has Gettleman clearing out the dead wood, McAdoo had to use this dead wood and it became a millstone around his neck.
I don't feel bad for him but you are right otherwise.
That guy was put in a no-win situation, especially last year, by injuries, an incompetent GM, and an owner who favors loyalty over results...
Isn't "no win" a little hyperbole? He was handed a $200 million dollar defense.
Quote:
In comment 14115878 BamaBlue said:
Quote:
He had to live with the absolute crapshow that Reese (and Coughlin) left behind. Where Shurmur (A.K.A. Schumer) has Gettleman clearing out the dead wood, McAdoo had to use this dead wood and it became a millstone around his neck.
I don't feel bad for him but you are right otherwise.
That guy was put in a no-win situation, especially last year, by injuries, an incompetent GM, and an owner who favors loyalty over results...
Isn't "no win" a little hyperbole? He was handed a $200 million dollar defense.
"$200 million" was essentially two players.
Just thinking about Reese's press conferences where he has that smug attitude and postures as if everyone else in the room is a fucking moron.
He is clearly worth keeping if you look at him as a physical specimen. It is who he is as a person - his work ethic - that makes him a cancer in the locker room. He literally just doesn't give a shit. There should be a mechanism to take back all the money paid to someone who doesn't even try. He deserves to lose every penny paid to him by the Giants.
Quote:
as a backup. Both Reese and Ross should never work in this league again.
Just thinking about Reese's press conferences where he has that smug attitude and postures as if everyone else in the room is a fucking moron.
He is clearly worth keeping if you look at him as a physical specimen. It is who he is as a person - his work ethic - that makes him a cancer in the locker room. He literally just doesn't give a shit. There should be a mechanism to take back all the money paid to someone who doesn't even try. He deserves to lose every penny paid to him by the Giants.
I think the guaranteed rookie contracts of 1st round picks should be addressed in the next CBA. The forfeiture clause in contracts is very rarely used. The players know this. The moment he signed the contract, he is a multi-millionaire. He will have taken (not saying he earned any of the money) over $14.4M in 4 years. Even if he never works a day for the rest of his life, he should be set if he manages and invests the money.
With him getting moved to RT and knowing that he is in a contract year, he should have had all the motivation to put his best play forward. But it began when he opted to stay in Miami for the mini-camp. Once the schedule came out, he knew who the opponents were for months before the first snap of week 1. There was no secret that Dante Fowler was suspended for Week 1. He had 2 core defenders to prepare for in Calais and Yannick. If he had dedicated 10 minutes each night while stuffing his face, he would have known that Calais is not known as a speed rusher. But instead he shows his lack of preparation when instead of scouting his opponent, he demonstrates his best Karate Kid technique.
micky : 10/9/2018 12:53 pm : link : reply
Very bad move
But you are such a fucking bad poster, that this might actually be written seriously.