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Papa/Diehl absolutely rip Flowers..

Thatís Gold, Jerry : 10/10/2018 7:55 am
this morning on NFL Radio on Sirius. They talked about how, after losing his job, he showed absolutely no interest in fighting to get his job back. He would stand on the sidelines, totally uninterested, chewing sunflower seeds.

They also talked about how the Giants (aka Reese/Ross etc.) basically sided with Flowers over well respected offensive line coaches such as Flaherty and Solari. Apparently, both tried to get through to Flowers that his technique was awful (dropping his head, grabbing) and Flowers steadfastly refused to alter his technique or change his approach. Flats and Flowers butted heads on numerous occasions. They basically said Flowers is a mental midget.

They suspect someone may take a flyer on him just as depth. They said it says a lot when a team that has OL issues or has had them is willing to cut ties with a player who was a no. 9 overall draft pick.

I think we gain on this strictly by not having him around. My son and I have been talking about this...that getting rid of him would send a message to the locker room and this was definitely a case of addition by subtraction.
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Flowers was the EXPECTED pick by many...  
x meadowlander : 10/10/2018 9:18 am : link
...included multiple media outlets. Unlike Eli Apple, NOBODY was shocked by the pick, particularly given how the draft fell. Yes, we knew there were technique issues, but he was VERY young and it was presumed he would be able to overcome his shortcomings.

The way people act here is as though he was forecast as a 4th rounder or something. Yes, it was a need pick, yes, it can be argued that it was a bad pick, but at the time, I recall this site being roughly 95% on board and STOKED.

It isn't like Flowers was a shocker, like Eli Apple. A sad day.
RE: And yet on numerous  
crick n NC : 10/10/2018 9:20 am : link
In comment 14117287 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Occasions I have heard Diehl and Papa defend Flowers

Guess it s only ok to share behind the scenes knowledge after a guy is no longer a Giant. Same about the Reese thing taking Flowers side over the coaches, pretty significant issue to only be hear of it now.

I expect this type of reporting from guys like Dottino, disappointed in Papa. I always felt he was a perspective we could trust.


I'd say they were defending him when it was warranted. As bad as flowers was, not everything was his fault. There were probably actual times when it looked his screw up, but in fact it was another player's mistake.
I still want to know what caused them to cut him during the season  
montanagiant : 10/10/2018 9:20 am : link
Did he refuse to play? To practice?

What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?
RE: I still want to know what caused them to cut him during the season  
crick n NC : 10/10/2018 9:22 am : link
In comment 14117295 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Did he refuse to play? To practice?

What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?


One possible factor is locker room negativity. The giants seem motivated to clean the team of negativity, rightfully so.
RE: I still want to know what caused them to cut him during the season  
jnoble : 10/10/2018 9:25 am : link
In comment 14117295 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Did he refuse to play? To practice?

What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?

I'm guessing like Papa and David D pointed out it was his sour lazy attitude
Seemed to me he was more helpful  
Jimmy Googs : 10/10/2018 9:29 am : link
on the sideline the last few weeks...
RE: Flowers was the EXPECTED pick by many...  
Beezer : 10/10/2018 9:33 am : link
In comment 14117292 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...included multiple media outlets. Unlike Eli Apple, NOBODY was shocked by the pick, particularly given how the draft fell. Yes, we knew there were technique issues, but he was VERY young and it was presumed he would be able to overcome his shortcomings.

The way people act here is as though he was forecast as a 4th rounder or something. Yes, it was a need pick, yes, it can be argued that it was a bad pick, but at the time, I recall this site being roughly 95% on board and STOKED.

It isn't like Flowers was a shocker, like Eli Apple. A sad day.


For some, as I recall, the toughest thing about it was that he was the pick while Todd Gurley was still on the board.
Don't These Guys  
wonderback : 10/10/2018 9:35 am : link
Get a personal interview? Seems like if you're picking a guy #9 you want to make sure all the boxes are checked. How could you interview this guy and not see the personality deficiencies we all see in him today. Really a mystery. Somebody really fell down on the job here.
Played with High Ankle Sprain  
Samiam : 10/10/2018 9:37 am : link
As a rookie didnít miss a game with that injury? Everyone was impressed with that and he had a decent year. A year later, he stayed in NJ (with Hart) to work out in the off season with the team which I think for Florida guys is a big deal. Something happened in his attitude or work ethic the last years. The big lesson here I think is donít draft for need. This was a case with the draft pundits had it right
RE: I still want to know what caused them to cut him during the season  
truebluelarry : 10/10/2018 9:42 am : link
In comment 14117295 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Did he refuse to play? To practice?

What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?


And they cut him on a short week!
If not for the guaranteed contract..  
Milton : 10/10/2018 9:47 am : link
I think Gettleman would've cut Flowers along with Hart last December.
p.s.--Who would've thought guys with names like Flowers and Hart would be such assholes?
When you side with unproven, lazy players  
Mr. Bungle : 10/10/2018 10:00 am : link
over experienced, proven coaches, you get what you deserve.
Idk  
BBelle21 : 10/10/2018 10:03 am : link
Iíve heard Papa and Diehl rip Flowers on many occasions throughout his time here. He frustrated many Giants.
Another kick in the nuts  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/10/2018 10:14 am : link
Reese threw under the bus respected Oline coaches Flaherty and Solari, and we're kind of stuck with meh n00b Hunter. Line might have gelled guider this year with some continuity.
RE: RE: Flowers was the EXPECTED pick by many...  
Big Blue '56 : 10/10/2018 10:22 am : link
In comment 14117314 Beezer said:
Quote:
In comment 14117292 x meadowlander said:


Quote:


...included multiple media outlets. Unlike Eli Apple, NOBODY was shocked by the pick, particularly given how the draft fell. Yes, we knew there were technique issues, but he was VERY young and it was presumed he would be able to overcome his shortcomings.

The way people act here is as though he was forecast as a 4th rounder or something. Yes, it was a need pick, yes, it can be argued that it was a bad pick, but at the time, I recall this site being roughly 95% on board and STOKED.

It isn't like Flowers was a shocker, like Eli Apple. A sad day.



For some, as I recall, the toughest thing about it was that he was the pick while Todd Gurley was still on the board.


I think, AT THE TIME, many (most) here thought he might be damaged goods. As of now, they were obviously wrong
I wondered if this was a bit of a jealousy pick too  
GiantNatty : 10/10/2018 10:23 am : link
I think the Giants were surprised by how well Tyron Smith has played and how he helped to solidify a very good offensive line in Dallas. It felt like the Giants wanted the same thing from Flowers so the projected onto him what they saw in Smith. But yes, they were wrong.
Flowers was projected to be a 1st round draft choice  
arniefez : 10/10/2018 10:31 am : link
but not a top 10 pick. There's always so much conflicting information about draft picks and we know how much of a crap shoot the draft is. Unfortunately all the people who pointed out Flowers weaknesses in college were correct.

The year before they drafted Beckum and there were a lot of fans who wanted Aaron Donald or Zack Martin instead. Everyone was right on that one all 3 guys are great.

If you look at 2015 the year Flowers was drafted there are only 4 players drafted after him in rounds 1 & 2 that made a pro bowl. 2 RB's and 2 DB's one of which is Landon Collins.

The Giants drafted for need and didn't work out.
The failures are more than Flowers  
Gregorio : 10/10/2018 10:35 am : link
For Papa/Diehl to focus blame on the player, isn't accurate. Gotta hold the scouts accountable. Were they so desperate for OL help they disregarded the difficulty to coach him? Or, did they not foresee he could not be coached? This is a scouting failure as much as a player failure.
I can admit when I was wrong  
Jay on the Island : 10/10/2018 11:05 am : link
I thought it was the right move to get rid of Flaherty. During his tenure he failed to develop any of the offensive linemen that Reese and Ross brought in. It is clear that it wasn't Flaherty who was to blame but Reese and Ross for bringing in the wrong prospects.

I was thrilled when Solari was hired but he too could not get anything out of Flowers. Solari was the OL coach for the great KC lines of the early 2000's. It is hard to defend a draft pick that refused to learn from two of the better and more respected OL coaches in the NFL. Fuck you Flowers.
Think about it  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/10/2018 11:08 am : link
Draft pundits, who don't interview prospects, rated him a late 1st round project. After interviewing him, we graded him a high 1st round pick. What's wrong with this picture?
Wrath of Reese  
royhobbs7 : 10/10/2018 11:08 am : link
What was so horrible about the previous administration was the arrogance of both Reese and Ross. When questioned about the Eli Apple pick, Ross came out and vilified the fans; he asserted that they knew NOTHING!
Moreover, Reese stubbornly stood by his draft picks long after it was ascertained that they were floundering. In particular, Flowers was his most flagrant error that he continued to be insistent with (because of his big ego - i.e., Reese's implication that, "I don't make mistakes with draft choices" - also see Adrian Robinson, Mykkele Thompson & Jay Bromley among others).
Consequently, we are feeling the "Wrath of Reese", as Giants' fans. It will be at least two more years (if we're lucky and Gettleman sets the ship on the right course) before this franchise is securely turned around.
RE: Think about it  
royhobbs7 : 10/10/2018 11:12 am : link
In comment 14117486 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Draft pundits, who don't interview prospects, rated him a late 1st round project. After interviewing him, we graded him a high 1st round pick. What's wrong with this picture?


Similarly, there were chuckles around other teams' war rooms when the Giants drafted DT Jay Bromley with the 3rd Rd pick in 2015(?).
RE: RE: Think about it  
royhobbs7 : 10/10/2018 11:14 am : link
In comment 14117495 royhobbs7 said:
Quote:
In comment 14117486 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


Draft pundits, who don't interview prospects, rated him a late 1st round project. After interviewing him, we graded him a high 1st round pick. What's wrong with this picture?



Similarly, there were chuckles around other teams' war rooms when the Giants drafted DT Jay Bromley with the 3rd Rd pick in 2015(?).


sic: Bromley was drafted in 2014.
My  
AcidTest : 10/10/2018 11:27 am : link
recollection is that the Bears were interested in Bromley, and Marvin Austin, but I admit I'm not sure. In any event, most people and pundits were startled that the Giants nonetheless took him in the third. Even Bromley was surprised. He thought he'd be drafted on day three.
RE: I still want to know what caused them to cut him during the season  
Carson53 : 10/10/2018 11:29 am : link
In comment 14117295 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Did he refuse to play? To practice?

What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?
.

I would hedge a guess, his attitude or being indifferent.
You saw him just standing on the sidelines during games,
seemingly with no interest. I can only wonder how practice went with this guy, once he lost his job...
RE: My  
Jay on the Island : 10/10/2018 11:29 am : link
In comment 14117515 AcidTest said:
Quote:
recollection is that the Bears were interested in Bromley, and Marvin Austin, but I admit I'm not sure. In any event, most people and pundits were startled that the Giants nonetheless took him in the third. Even Bromley was surprised. He thought he'd be drafted on day three.

Lovie Smith was reportedly very high on Marvin Austin in the draft. He would have taken him if the Giants passed.
what are the long term track records of other franchises  
PaulBlakeTSU : 10/10/2018 11:32 am : link
with 1st round picks, (or any round picks for that matter)?

Maybe drafting is more akin to hitting in baseball. You're going to strike out a lot more often than you'll hit a home run.
Yeah, that was a real message.....  
Doomster : 10/10/2018 12:01 pm : link
That took 4 years....."If you suck, you will be cut!"

Just like Robinson, Jernigan, etc.
Huge error by Gettleman to bring him back  
Go Terps : 10/10/2018 12:07 pm : link
.
re: Gurley  
JonC : 10/10/2018 12:09 pm : link
He was coming off an ACL tear and there was some extended concerns about his long term health.

I have no problem skipping the player at #9 overall in such a spot.

Btw, we wound up with a tailback with even more upside, imo.
Sorry, disagree.....  
Doomster : 10/10/2018 12:12 pm : link
Another kick in the nuts
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10:14 am : link : reply
Reese threw under the bus respected Oline coaches Flaherty and Solari, and we're kind of stuck with meh n00b Hunter. Line might have gelled guider this year with some continuity.

As far as Solari goes, it wasn't just Flowers.....he couldn't teach the Jerry/Hart to handle a simple stunt.....he couldn't teach anyone how to run a screen.....

As for Flowers not listening to him as far as not changing his technique, that is all on the coach, unless you bench his ass....

And what continuity? A different player at each of the 5 positions?

Solari showed nothing.....
Ereck Flowers  
jacob12 : 10/10/2018 12:13 pm : link
Flowers is not a good athlete. He has poor footwork and abysmal balance.
Flaherty is doing an excellent job in Jacksonville....  
Britt in VA : 10/10/2018 12:17 pm : link
and Flowers, Richberg, and Pugh had their best season under him, but many on BBI wanted him fired.
I don't recall BBI being "stoked" about the Flowers pick  
ZogZerg : 10/10/2018 12:21 pm : link
I recall people feeling that he was a reach and a "need pick". You had the usually BBI "experts" who claim the Giants don't draft for need in the first round (when they mostly do), but they were wrong per usual.

BBI was hopefull that a young big OL could turn out to be something, but not many were "stoked" about the pick.
You guys all kill Geoff Schwartz  
Mike from SI : 10/10/2018 12:23 pm : link
but if you've followed his Twitter feed he's been intensely critical of Flowers since he retired. He tried to keep it focused on Flowers' technique and shortcomings as a player but the obvious subtext was that he (and it sounds like the other linemen) did not like the guy.
RE: what are the long term track records of other franchises  
giants#1 : 10/10/2018 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14117526 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
with 1st round picks, (or any round picks for that matter)?

Maybe drafting is more akin to hitting in baseball. You're going to strike out a lot more often than you'll hit a home run.


Position dependent (not surprisingly). Slightly old data (2005-2014), but interesting:

Quote:
The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)


Also, notable with Barkley picked this year (and contrary to popular belief):

Quote:

Running Back
The position has been devalued over the years but the statistics still show that it is better to draft early if you are looking for a starter.

Of the 207 players drafted 33 have become starters for half their careers. This gives an indication that there is a lot of Running Back By Committee (RBBC).
There is a very high bust rate for RBs. The first round gives you a 58% chance of finding a starter followed by 25% in the second, 16% in the third, 11% in the fourth, 9% in the fifth, 6% in the sixth and 0% in the 7th.
... (more in article)


Though the "success" criteria the article uses is quite debatable and would technically consider Flowers a success (for now):

Quote:
This post has a simple criteria: How many players were drafted by position and round over the last decade and how many went on to become a starter.

I did not distinguish superstars from regular starters. The determination of a starter comes from whether the player started at least half of their career. Obviously, this will run the gambit from below average to high performing starters. The reality is that if you can start in this league for at least half of your playing career, you are better than most.

Link - ( New Window )
RE: The failures are more than Flowers  
mittenedman : 10/10/2018 12:28 pm : link
In comment 14117414 Gregorio said:
Quote:
For Papa/Diehl to focus blame on the player, isn't accurate. Gotta hold the scouts accountable. Were they so desperate for OL help they disregarded the difficulty to coach him? Or, did they not foresee he could not be coached? This is a scouting failure as much as a player failure.


Well, one of the scouts they hired was Chris Snee, who told them buyer beware.
another interesting article from 538  
giants#1 : 10/10/2018 12:30 pm : link


Conversely, the title of the graph could be "Draft round matters for QBs the least.
Link - ( New Window )
I canít be too impressed with what Papa and Diehl have to say.  
Ivan15 : 10/10/2018 12:31 pm : link
Find some national media guys with similar comments.

Also even mediocre o-line coaches should be able to coach a player up a bit if the player has any interest in improving.

This was a mistake by the scouting Dept., by the GM and the coaching. But mosstly it was a mistake of and by the player himself. No one can get into every playerís psyche. Best thing that can happen now is that he canít sign anywhere, works to change in the off season, and gets a look in Miami next year.
I won't fault anybody for being excited or in favor of the  
Dinger : 10/10/2018 12:54 pm : link
pick at the time. They had neglected the line for too long and it was a need pick. I believe I was happy we addressed the line but was worry about a player that needed to be developed.

We don't know the whole story behind the Flaherty firing, just as we don't know the whole story behind why they finally let him go and now. If the whole line sucked then it would point to a coach (or some truly bad personnel decisions in that area). I THINK the final push out the door for Flowers was our 1 and 4 record. With a ship thats trying to right itself, you want all oars in the water and, at least appearing to be, rowing in the same direction. Players busting their a$$e$, seeing him on the sideline, spitting sunflower seeds, can maybe be written off if your 4 and 1 or 3 and 2. When youre struggling like this team is, when Odell is speaking out (whom I believe is busting his a$$) the newer players as well as 'fringe' players may look over at EF and say, well whats going on there. Coaches and management have a tough time defending it. So he's shown the door. They'll take their chances with a less 'gifted' player.
RE: another interesting article from 538  
Leg of Theismann : 10/10/2018 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14117620 giants#1 said:
Quote:


Conversely, the title of the graph could be "Draft round matters for QBs the least. Link - ( New Window )


I'm confused about the QB line in that graph. It doesn't appear to add up to 100% or even close. 10% in round 1, 5% in round 2, 5% in round 6, everywhere else is like 0% or less, so how does that add up to 100%?
I mean I guess it's more like  
Leg of Theismann : 10/10/2018 1:24 pm : link
8% in round 2, 6% in round 6, 2% undrafted.... still those numbers do not add up to 100%.
RE: Sorry, disagree.....  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/10/2018 1:34 pm : link
In comment 14117598 Doomster said:
Quote:

As far as Solari goes, it wasn't just Flowers.....he couldn't teach the Jerry/Hart to handle a simple stunt.....he couldn't teach anyone how to run a screen.....

As for Flowers not listening to him as far as not changing his technique, that is all on the coach, unless you bench his ass....

And what continuity? A different player at each of the 5 positions?

Solari showed nothing.....


Bingo. Kill Reese for over-drafting Flowers, but the previous o-line coaches had PLENTY of failures aside from #76. That just sounds like unnecessary piling on of Reese/Ross by Papa.
RE: I mean I guess it's more like  
Thegratefulhead : 10/10/2018 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14117692 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
8% in round 2, 6% in round 6, 2% undrafted.... still those numbers do not add up to 100%.
It would not add up to 100% because many players drafted never become starters, nevermind All Pro. In today's NFL you have to really suck not become a starter if you are drafted in the first round. Salary cap dictates these players start. Telling.
Flowers  
allstarjim : 10/10/2018 2:19 pm : link
had some astoundingly good tape from Miami. Showed good enough feet, and particularly dominating in the run game. He would just wipe out guys. It was easy to like the nastiness that was shown, and also easy to see the translatable skill set all in the ideal build.

He has all the physical tools if he ever wants to put it together and get his technique right.
People defended Flowers for years  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/10/2018 2:23 pm : link
saying that he would eventually get better, etc. Hell, it wasn't until we started 0-4 last season that the last few idiotic holdouts on here finally admitted that Reese was way past it despite years of evidence.
OK, so...  
Leg of Theismann : 10/10/2018 3:41 pm : link
I misread the chart above. I thought it was saying "of all All-Pro QBs, X% were round 1, Y% were round 2, etc." which is why I thought the QB line should add up to 100%.

However, I still think the chart is a bit misleading, because it doesn't account for the fact that QBs tend to be drafted higher than the other positions due to QB being a premium position, so naturally you are going to have more QBs who are 1st round busts. Also, an all-pro QB is a rare breed, and it isn't that draft round is a poor predictor of QB excellence, it's that *everyone* is a poor predictor of QB excellence regardless of draft round, because an all-pro QB is simply hard to find.

Let me put it this way and you might draw a different conclusion...

Since 1990, there have been 17 all pro QBs drafted. Here is the distribution of those 17 players by round:

1st: 11
2nd: 2
3rd: 0
4th: 0
5th: 0
6th: 2
7th: 0
Und: 2

Since 1990, there have been 52 all pro RBs drafted. Here is the distribution of those 52 players by round:

1st: 24
2nd: 7
3rd: 8
4th: 3
5th: 5
6th: 2
7th: 1
Und: 2

So of all all-pro RBs, 46% were selected in the 1st round... while of all all-pro QBs, 65% were selected in the 1st round. that certainly doesn't say to me that draft round is a poor predictor of QB performance, does it?

Here's my final conclusion: if you want an all-pro QB, you're probably going to have to get him in the 1st round, 2nd round at the latest, unless you plan to hit the jackpot and find a diamond in the rough (there were only 4: Brady, Romo, Warner, Hassleback). Here's the problem: even if you take a QB in the 1st round, there's still only a 10% chance that he's going to be an all-pro. But that, my friends, is a perfect argument for why we were correct to not be hellbent on taking one of the top 4-5 QBs in this past year's draft--there is only a 10% chance that the one we chose was going to be an all-pro. That's why you don't just take a QB top 10 overall and figure your set at QB for 10-15 years. Similarly, even if to a lesser extent, that's why you don't take an OT top 10 overall and assume you're setup for 10-15 years, you take Todd effin' Gurley because he's the better effin' player.
Eric Flowers  
Jersey55 : 10/10/2018 4:20 pm : link
a lot of people knew Flowers had a lot of warts to his game when he was drafted but the Giants did with the Flowers pick the thing they said they never do, draft for need in round 1..........
And yet, for two offseasons in a row  
idiotsavant : 10/10/2018 5:01 pm : link
When I suggested that Justin Pugh was our best left tackle option, many of you guys felt moral outrage at any such questioning of the powers that were.
sometimes young adults realize its not  
mdc1 : 10/11/2018 12:11 pm : link
a kids sport any longer and its a real job that requires more than auto-pilot and previous stats and press clippings. Yesterdays news is nothing in the current. I guess he thought being a #1 pick and LT he was done.
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