this morning on NFL Radio on Sirius. They talked about how, after losing his job, he showed absolutely no interest in fighting to get his job back. He would stand on the sidelines, totally uninterested, chewing sunflower seeds.
They also talked about how the Giants (aka Reese/Ross etc.) basically sided with Flowers over well respected offensive line coaches such as Flaherty and Solari. Apparently, both tried to get through to Flowers that his technique was awful (dropping his head, grabbing) and Flowers steadfastly refused to alter his technique or change his approach. Flats and Flowers butted heads on numerous occasions. They basically said Flowers is a mental midget.
They suspect someone may take a flyer on him just as depth. They said it says a lot when a team that has OL issues or has had them is willing to cut ties with a player who was a no. 9 overall draft pick.
I think we gain on this strictly by not having him around. My son and I have been talking about this...that getting rid of him would send a message to the locker room and this was definitely a case of addition by subtraction.
Are we going to be confused with the best OL in football? No.
But at least we know the guys out there are competing.
I have said on many occasions, the Giants are the only team in the last 6 or so years that has not developed any OL. Every other NFL team has UDFA guys and late round picks who are serviceable. This is now 3 coaching staffs that have not done anything
He is not the 1st and will not be the last top 10 OL miss
Spot on!!
As the years went on, Reese took potential over production, size and strength over skills. Maybe it was easier (he got lazy?) to scout by looking size/speed aspect instead of digging in and finding football players.
I have said on many occasions, the Giants are the only team in the last 6 or so years that has not developed any OL. Every other NFL team has UDFA guys and late round picks who are serviceable. This is now 3 coaching staffs that have not done anything
He is not the 1st and will not be the last top 10 OL miss
Wait, you’re including the current staff 5 games in with one draft? And saying they will draft another bust in the top 10? Wtf?
We were desperate to get better in the Oline. They all reached.
It hasn't stopped BBI before so I expect the trend will continue.
We were desperate to get better in the Oline. They all reached.
From 2007 to 2017 Jerry Reese was in charge of drafting for the NY Football Giants. Today there are 9 Reese picks left on the active roster. I'm not sure on the shelf life of BJ Goodson or Z DeOssie either.
Yes there may have been group input on some picks but yes... It is all Reese.
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Coughlin definitely had input on our first round pick as well. John Mara has the tie breaker vote.
We were desperate to get better in the Oline. They all reached.
From 2007 to 2017 Jerry Reese was in charge of drafting for the NY Football Giants. Today there are 9 Reese picks left on the active roster. I'm not sure on the shelf life of BJ Goodson or Z DeOssie either.
Yes there may have been group input on some picks but yes... It is all Reese.
He had a hand in 2 Lombardi trophies as well!
We were desperate to get better in the Oline. They all reached.
Surely sounds like coaches who reported to TC didn't like Flowers.. I am not sure why TC would force Flowers on them if they didn't like him.. It sounds like a GM problem.. its his job to do the scouting and draft players.. yes others have input.. but others also have many other responsibilities.. Drafting and bringing in players was JR's main responsibility.. hence he gets most of the blame..
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And in the midst of the 7th season since the last one. What is record since?
In comment 14117239 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
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Coughlin definitely had input on our first round pick as well. John Mara has the tie breaker vote.
We were desperate to get better in the Oline. They all reached.
From 2007 to 2017 Jerry Reese was in charge of drafting for the NY Football Giants. Today there are 9 Reese picks left on the active roster. I'm not sure on the shelf life of BJ Goodson or Z DeOssie either.
Yes there may have been group input on some picks but yes... It is all Reese.
He had a hand in 2 Lombardi trophies as well!
Just ugly stuff going on behind the scenes with that previous regime after Coughlin was kicked out the door.
Why did he and the FO have more complete immunity than Jeff Fisher and his pedo moustache while the coaches and Eli were being thrown under the bus? Where did he come up with his Al Davis style roster buildimg that set this franchise back 10 years?
Okay, that lasted all of a few weeks or maybe a couple of months.
Guess it s only ok to share behind the scenes knowledge after a guy is no longer a Giant. Same about the Reese thing taking Flowers side over the coaches, pretty significant issue to only be hear of it now.
I expect this type of reporting from guys like Dottino, disappointed in Papa. I always felt he was a perspective we could trust.
The way people act here is as though he was forecast as a 4th rounder or something. Yes, it was a need pick, yes, it can be argued that it was a bad pick, but at the time, I recall this site being roughly 95% on board and STOKED.
It isn't like Flowers was a shocker, like Eli Apple. A sad day.
Guess it s only ok to share behind the scenes knowledge after a guy is no longer a Giant. Same about the Reese thing taking Flowers side over the coaches, pretty significant issue to only be hear of it now.
I expect this type of reporting from guys like Dottino, disappointed in Papa. I always felt he was a perspective we could trust.
I'd say they were defending him when it was warranted. As bad as flowers was, not everything was his fault. There were probably actual times when it looked his screw up, but in fact it was another player's mistake.
What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?
What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?
One possible factor is locker room negativity. The giants seem motivated to clean the team of negativity, rightfully so.
What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?
I'm guessing like Papa and David D pointed out it was his sour lazy attitude
The way people act here is as though he was forecast as a 4th rounder or something. Yes, it was a need pick, yes, it can be argued that it was a bad pick, but at the time, I recall this site being roughly 95% on board and STOKED.
It isn't like Flowers was a shocker, like Eli Apple. A sad day.
For some, as I recall, the toughest thing about it was that he was the pick while Todd Gurley was still on the board.
What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?
And they cut him on a short week!
p.s.--Who would've thought guys with names like Flowers and Hart would be such assholes?
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...included multiple media outlets. Unlike Eli Apple, NOBODY was shocked by the pick, particularly given how the draft fell. Yes, we knew there were technique issues, but he was VERY young and it was presumed he would be able to overcome his shortcomings.
The way people act here is as though he was forecast as a 4th rounder or something. Yes, it was a need pick, yes, it can be argued that it was a bad pick, but at the time, I recall this site being roughly 95% on board and STOKED.
It isn't like Flowers was a shocker, like Eli Apple. A sad day.
For some, as I recall, the toughest thing about it was that he was the pick while Todd Gurley was still on the board.
I think, AT THE TIME, many (most) here thought he might be damaged goods. As of now, they were obviously wrong
The year before they drafted Beckum and there were a lot of fans who wanted Aaron Donald or Zack Martin instead. Everyone was right on that one all 3 guys are great.
If you look at 2015 the year Flowers was drafted there are only 4 players drafted after him in rounds 1 & 2 that made a pro bowl. 2 RB's and 2 DB's one of which is Landon Collins.
The Giants drafted for need and didn't work out.
I was thrilled when Solari was hired but he too could not get anything out of Flowers. Solari was the OL coach for the great KC lines of the early 2000's. It is hard to defend a draft pick that refused to learn from two of the better and more respected OL coaches in the NFL. Fuck you Flowers.
Moreover, Reese stubbornly stood by his draft picks long after it was ascertained that they were floundering. In particular, Flowers was his most flagrant error that he continued to be insistent with (because of his big ego - i.e., Reese's implication that, "I don't make mistakes with draft choices" - also see Adrian Robinson, Mykkele Thompson & Jay Bromley among others).
Consequently, we are feeling the "Wrath of Reese", as Giants' fans. It will be at least two more years (if we're lucky and Gettleman sets the ship on the right course) before this franchise is securely turned around.
Similarly, there were chuckles around other teams' war rooms when the Giants drafted DT Jay Bromley with the 3rd Rd pick in 2015(?).
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Draft pundits, who don't interview prospects, rated him a late 1st round project. After interviewing him, we graded him a high 1st round pick. What's wrong with this picture?
Similarly, there were chuckles around other teams' war rooms when the Giants drafted DT Jay Bromley with the 3rd Rd pick in 2015(?).
sic: Bromley was drafted in 2014.
What exactly led them to decide we just need to dump this loser?
I would hedge a guess, his attitude or being indifferent.
You saw him just standing on the sidelines during games,
seemingly with no interest. I can only wonder how practice went with this guy, once he lost his job...
Lovie Smith was reportedly very high on Marvin Austin in the draft. He would have taken him if the Giants passed.
Maybe drafting is more akin to hitting in baseball. You're going to strike out a lot more often than you'll hit a home run.
Just like Robinson, Jernigan, etc.
I have no problem skipping the player at #9 overall in such a spot.
Btw, we wound up with a tailback with even more upside, imo.
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10:14 am : link : reply
Reese threw under the bus respected Oline coaches Flaherty and Solari, and we're kind of stuck with meh n00b Hunter. Line might have gelled guider this year with some continuity.
As far as Solari goes, it wasn't just Flowers.....he couldn't teach the Jerry/Hart to handle a simple stunt.....he couldn't teach anyone how to run a screen.....
As for Flowers not listening to him as far as not changing his technique, that is all on the coach, unless you bench his ass....
And what continuity? A different player at each of the 5 positions?
Solari showed nothing.....
BBI was hopefull that a young big OL could turn out to be something, but not many were "stoked" about the pick.
Maybe drafting is more akin to hitting in baseball. You're going to strike out a lot more often than you'll hit a home run.
Position dependent (not surprisingly). Slightly old data (2005-2014), but interesting:
1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
Also, notable with Barkley picked this year (and contrary to popular belief):
Running Back
The position has been devalued over the years but the statistics still show that it is better to draft early if you are looking for a starter.
Of the 207 players drafted 33 have become starters for half their careers. This gives an indication that there is a lot of Running Back By Committee (RBBC).
There is a very high bust rate for RBs. The first round gives you a 58% chance of finding a starter followed by 25% in the second, 16% in the third, 11% in the fourth, 9% in the fifth, 6% in the sixth and 0% in the 7th.
... (more in article)
Though the "success" criteria the article uses is quite debatable and would technically consider Flowers a success (for now):
I did not distinguish superstars from regular starters. The determination of a starter comes from whether the player started at least half of their career. Obviously, this will run the gambit from below average to high performing starters. The reality is that if you can start in this league for at least half of your playing career, you are better than most.
Link - ( New Window )
Well, one of the scouts they hired was Chris Snee, who told them buyer beware.
Conversely, the title of the graph could be "Draft round matters for QBs the least.
Link - ( New Window )
Also even mediocre o-line coaches should be able to coach a player up a bit if the player has any interest in improving.
This was a mistake by the scouting Dept., by the GM and the coaching. But mosstly it was a mistake of and by the player himself. No one can get into every player’s psyche. Best thing that can happen now is that he can’t sign anywhere, works to change in the off season, and gets a look in Miami next year.
We don't know the whole story behind the Flaherty firing, just as we don't know the whole story behind why they finally let him go and now. If the whole line sucked then it would point to a coach (or some truly bad personnel decisions in that area). I THINK the final push out the door for Flowers was our 1 and 4 record. With a ship thats trying to right itself, you want all oars in the water and, at least appearing to be, rowing in the same direction. Players busting their a$$e$, seeing him on the sideline, spitting sunflower seeds, can maybe be written off if your 4 and 1 or 3 and 2. When youre struggling like this team is, when Odell is speaking out (whom I believe is busting his a$$) the newer players as well as 'fringe' players may look over at EF and say, well whats going on there. Coaches and management have a tough time defending it. So he's shown the door. They'll take their chances with a less 'gifted' player.
Conversely, the title of the graph could be "Draft round matters for QBs the least. Link - ( New Window )
I'm confused about the QB line in that graph. It doesn't appear to add up to 100% or even close. 10% in round 1, 5% in round 2, 5% in round 6, everywhere else is like 0% or less, so how does that add up to 100%?
As far as Solari goes, it wasn't just Flowers.....he couldn't teach the Jerry/Hart to handle a simple stunt.....he couldn't teach anyone how to run a screen.....
As for Flowers not listening to him as far as not changing his technique, that is all on the coach, unless you bench his ass....
And what continuity? A different player at each of the 5 positions?
Solari showed nothing.....
Bingo. Kill Reese for over-drafting Flowers, but the previous o-line coaches had PLENTY of failures aside from #76. That just sounds like unnecessary piling on of Reese/Ross by Papa.
He has all the physical tools if he ever wants to put it together and get his technique right.
However, I still think the chart is a bit misleading, because it doesn't account for the fact that QBs tend to be drafted higher than the other positions due to QB being a premium position, so naturally you are going to have more QBs who are 1st round busts. Also, an all-pro QB is a rare breed, and it isn't that draft round is a poor predictor of QB excellence, it's that *everyone* is a poor predictor of QB excellence regardless of draft round, because an all-pro QB is simply hard to find.
Let me put it this way and you might draw a different conclusion...
Since 1990, there have been 17 all pro QBs drafted. Here is the distribution of those 17 players by round:
1st: 11
2nd: 2
3rd: 0
4th: 0
5th: 0
6th: 2
7th: 0
Und: 2
Since 1990, there have been 52 all pro RBs drafted. Here is the distribution of those 52 players by round:
1st: 24
2nd: 7
3rd: 8
4th: 3
5th: 5
6th: 2
7th: 1
Und: 2
So of all all-pro RBs, 46% were selected in the 1st round... while of all all-pro QBs, 65% were selected in the 1st round. that certainly doesn't say to me that draft round is a poor predictor of QB performance, does it?
Here's my final conclusion: if you want an all-pro QB, you're probably going to have to get him in the 1st round, 2nd round at the latest, unless you plan to hit the jackpot and find a diamond in the rough (there were only 4: Brady, Romo, Warner, Hassleback). Here's the problem: even if you take a QB in the 1st round, there's still only a 10% chance that he's going to be an all-pro. But that, my friends, is a perfect argument for why we were correct to not be hellbent on taking one of the top 4-5 QBs in this past year's draft--there is only a 10% chance that the one we chose was going to be an all-pro. That's why you don't just take a QB top 10 overall and figure your set at QB for 10-15 years. Similarly, even if to a lesser extent, that's why you don't take an OT top 10 overall and assume you're setup for 10-15 years, you take Todd effin' Gurley because he's the better effin' player.