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The Ringer - Re-visiting the 2018 draft

GF1080 : 10/10/2018 12:28 pm
Touches on the same themes we have gone over a million times. The most important thing to me in the article might be how inefficient Barkley is even with the gaudy yardage.
The Ringer article - ( New Window )
Dumb article that literally brings nothing new to the table.  
Britt in VA : 10/10/2018 12:31 pm : link
And foolish to declare anything as decided five games into their careers.
Not saying it's 0% his fault  
BestFeature : 10/10/2018 12:32 pm : link
But it's mostly the offensive line that's inefficient, not Barkley.
Literally none of the rookie QBs have proven a thing  
BestFeature : 10/10/2018 12:35 pm : link
This consternation over our future where all of these QBs could be mediocre is really ridiculous.
If you look at the 1st round  
mrvax : 10/10/2018 12:39 pm : link
as pure BPA, then the Giants hit a home run. Browns on the other hand needed badly to immediately grab the best QB they scouted. I cannot blame them for not going Barkley 1st, then some QB at 4.
Has anyone compiled information  
Giant John : 10/10/2018 12:42 pm : link
As to the number of rushing attempts that have gone to the Left side of the line, the middle and the right side? Would we have more success with our attempts going left?
Go Terps and I had this same conversation  
Capt. Don : 10/10/2018 12:43 pm : link
The question is not whether Darnold will have a bigger impact on the NYJ than Barkley does on NYG.

The questions were...

When will an offensive impact player of Barkley's level (dont call him just a RB) become available to NYG again?

Not in this team's lifetime. I think he is the best back in football right now and by a relatively wide margin. If we had taken Ezekiel Elliot or Fournette, I wouldve agreed with this article and Go Terps because as good as those guys are, they do come along somewhat consistently.

Not Barkley. We are not going to get another chance at a player like him in this team's lifespan.

When will a QB of Darnold's level become available to NYG again?

Maybe 2019. I love Darnold but most drafts have 1-2 QBs with a similar scouting report.

You take the generational talent and try to get your VERY HIGHLY RATED (but annually available) QB next year.
Also, how lazy to merely focus on just his rushing numbers....  
Britt in VA : 10/10/2018 12:45 pm : link
no mention that he's second in the NFL in 20+ yard runs with five.

Also conveniently leaving out that he's second in the league to Alvin Kamara in reception, receiving yards, and tied for 2nd in receiving TD's.

Oh, and he's only the 3rd player in history to have 100 yards from scrimmage in his first five games, joining Kareem Hunt and Adrian Peterson.

But other than those things, he sucks. That article reads like it was written by a Jets fan.
The Giants could have had  
Les in TO : 10/10/2018 12:48 pm : link
Nelson or Chubb plus three additional second round picks if they traded with the Jets. DG calls that a hot dog a dozen donuts and pretzels. Barkley better turn out to be a perennial all pro
The article assumes that you don't need to scout college prospects  
Milton : 10/10/2018 12:51 pm : link
Just wait to see how the media ranks the prospects and go off of that. So if the media tells you there are four QBs worthy of the pick, that's all you need to know.

But the Giants have invested millions of dollars in their scouting department and what's the point of spending all that money if you're not going to listen to what they say on draft day. And the Giants scouts weren't fond of the QBs. At least not fond enough to spend a top ten pick on one.

I preferred Josh Rosen with the pick, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I know better than the guys who do this for a living and have access to far more information than I do. I read what the draftniks say, watch some "film room" study on youtube by guys like Matt Waldman and Brett Kollmann, and form an opinion.

p.s.--Of the four QBs, the one I liked the least was Sam Darnold. The article can talk all it wants about how nice it is to build around QBs like Goff, Mahomes, and Wentz on their rookie contracts, but it leaves out what a seback it can be when you misfire on the pick. I feel sorry for Jets fans.
RE: The Giants could have had  
mrvax : 10/10/2018 12:53 pm : link
In comment 14117650 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Nelson or Chubb plus three additional second round picks if they traded with the Jets. DG calls that a hot dog a dozen donuts and pretzels. Barkley better turn out to be a perennial all pro


Les, where did you get that info? Source?
3 2nd round picks....  
Britt in VA : 10/10/2018 12:55 pm : link
to move from 6 to 2 is a hot dog and peanuts when players like Barkley and supposedly 3 franchise level QB's are sitting there.
RE: The Giants could have had  
giants#1 : 10/10/2018 12:56 pm : link
In comment 14117650 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Nelson or Chubb plus three additional second round picks if they traded with the Jets. DG calls that a hot dog a dozen donuts and pretzels. Barkley better turn out to be a perennial all pro


IIRC, its been reported that the Jets didn't even contact the Giants about a trade because they felt the Giants would turn around and use any potential deal to get Buffalo to move up.

Granted the report reeked of BS seeing as the Jets moved up well before the draft which gave Buffalo ample time to jump them if they wanted.
People here would have destroyed Gettleman...  
Britt in VA : 10/10/2018 12:58 pm : link
if he dropped all the way down to 6 and passed on Barkley AND a QB for only 3 2nd rounders.

Get real.
RE: RE: The Giants could have had  
Les in TO : 10/10/2018 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14117658 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 14117650 Les in TO said:


Quote:


Nelson or Chubb plus three additional second round picks if they traded with the Jets. DG calls that a hot dog a dozen donuts and pretzels. Barkley better turn out to be a perennial all pro


If
Les, where did you get that info? Source?
if DG had reached out to the jets before the colts did they could have at least received what the colts did in return for the lower number three pick. the article noted DG had zero interest in exploring trade talks. Given that run blocking pass blocking and rushing the passer are still big holes it was a chance to improve multiple weak areas.
RE: Also, how lazy to merely focus on just his rushing numbers....  
lax counsel : 10/10/2018 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14117645 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
no mention that he's second in the NFL in 20+ yard runs with five.

Also conveniently leaving out that he's second in the league to Alvin Kamara in reception, receiving yards, and tied for 2nd in receiving TD's.

Oh, and he's only the 3rd player in history to have 100 yards from scrimmage in his first five games, joining Kareem Hunt and Adrian Peterson.

But other than those things, he sucks. That article reads like it was written by a Jets fan.


I do not think the article suggests that Barkley isn't a great player. I'm not sure any person of sound mind would dispute his abilities. What I do think it suggests is that the impact of a running back- when all else is so far below average- simply isn't great enough to warrant that selection given the state of the Giants franchise as a whole.

Aren't we witnessing first hand that occurrence right now? Right now, despite all of Barkley's production, the Giants are still 1-4 and haven't looked particularly adept on offense outside of an 8 minute span in Charlotte. Time will tell if this was the right pick for this franchise.
Too early to tell  
arniefez : 10/10/2018 1:10 pm : link
get back to me before the 2020 draft. But I hated the pick the minute it was made. Not because the player isn't a great talent. He is. But because the position is very easy to fill and a complimentary position. The Giants over spend the asset worth for almost every player they bring in. Whether it's elite contracts for players like Vernon and Solder or trading a 7th round pick for a punter. The 2nd pick in the draft for any RB is not worth the asset they spent for it. QB, Edge Rusher, OT or trade out of the pick for the best deal you could get.
RE: RE: Also, how lazy to merely focus on just his rushing numbers....  
Thegratefulhead : 10/10/2018 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14117674 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 14117645 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


no mention that he's second in the NFL in 20+ yard runs with five.

Also conveniently leaving out that he's second in the league to Alvin Kamara in reception, receiving yards, and tied for 2nd in receiving TD's.

Oh, and he's only the 3rd player in history to have 100 yards from scrimmage in his first five games, joining Kareem Hunt and Adrian Peterson.

But other than those things, he sucks. That article reads like it was written by a Jets fan.



I do not think the article suggests that Barkley isn't a great player. I'm not sure any person of sound mind would dispute his abilities. What I do think it suggests is that the impact of a running back- when all else is so far below average- simply isn't great enough to warrant that selection given the state of the Giants franchise as a whole.

Aren't we witnessing first hand that occurrence right now? Right now, despite all of Barkley's production, the Giants are still 1-4 and haven't looked particularly adept on offense outside of an 8 minute span in Charlotte. Time will tell if this was the right pick for this franchise.
Agreed.
I understand many of those responding here  
eugibs : 10/10/2018 1:24 pm : link
are emotionally invested in missing the point, but this article is unassailable in the points that it makes.

Maybe all 4 of the top rookie qbs this year turn out to be bums and one of the guys in next years draft becomes the GOAT and the giants are able to pair that qb with Barley and Beckham -- anything is possible.

However, the point of the article is to examine what could the organization have done to put itself in the best possible position to succeed moving forward and, in that respect, the decision that the Giants made was the wrong one. When you draft a player with a 5-year shelf-life at a position where having a star is an unnecessary luxury and immediately make him one of the highest paid players at his position in the league, and pair him with a 37 year old quarterback and a veteran wide receiver who you just made the highest paid player at his position in the league, you have to be a win now team. You're not "building" for anything. This is it. The quarterback is either done or soon to be done and every time Barkley touches the ball, he depreciates a little as a player. Therefore, the fact that the Giants are not winning now should really be the end of this argument.

Again, maybe the Giants get fabulously lucky in next year's draft or the 2020 draft at quarterback and o-line, the team goes on an amazing run in subsequent years and Gettleman ends up in the Hall of Fame. It's not impossible. But the article is correct in that the Giants, given what they had on their roster on draft day 2018, did not make the moves that would have given them the best chance to succeed moving forward.
Having watched him for 5 weeks...  
Chris684 : 10/10/2018 1:28 pm : link
are there still people out there claiming you can find someone like him "in the 2nd or 3rd round"?

LOL.
The Giants are a dumb organization  
Oscar : 10/10/2018 1:34 pm : link
Or at the very least an organization that is approaching things with a severely outdated mentality. Itís not just the Saquon pick or the decisions they made this past offseason. They have been pretty widely regarded as a fairly dumb, outdated organization for a while.

Their performance since Super Bowl 46 has been downright Knicksian, just look at their winning percentages.

I like Saquon just fine but I think drafting a RB with the second pick in the draft after going 3-13 is basically malpractice. It does not in any way reflect where the league is going and is an incredibly poor allocation of a very valuable, hard earned (3-13) resource.

I think Mara is secretly a pretty bad owner who is too involved in football decisions and in over his head. I think Gettleman is a dinosaur and should not have been hired. Jury is out on Shurmur but I think heís in a bad situation and will have to be pretty damn special to coach his way out of it.

Eli seems like a nice guy and I love him for the two Super Bowls but heís cooked and thatís been obvious to people on the outside for years now. You want to cut ties with a QB too early rather than too late, the Giants got it wrong in this case.

Dumb team, dumb management, canít expect anything other than bad results.
RE: Having watched him for 5 weeks...  
lax counsel : 10/10/2018 1:51 pm : link
In comment 14117697 Chris684 said:
Quote:
are there still people out there claiming you can find someone like him "in the 2nd or 3rd round"?

LOL.


Having watched him for 5 weeks, would you say that hes had such an impact on the offense, and the Giants winning as a whole as to warrant selecting that position with the second overall pick rather than a 2nd rounder?
RE: The Giants could have had  
BestFeature : 10/10/2018 1:52 pm : link
In comment 14117650 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Nelson or Chubb plus three additional second round picks if they traded with the Jets. DG calls that a hot dog a dozen donuts and pretzels. Barkley better turn out to be a perennial all pro


The same people that are questioning DG's judgment in taking Barkley, all of a sudden trust him to get it right on three non-premium picks.
The Jets, who selected the immortal Sam Darnold  
Chris684 : 10/10/2018 2:07 pm : link
and added him to what is probably a more complete team than NYG are only 1 game better in the standings against a weaker 5 game schedule.

Stop using team records to evaluate the individual draft pick.

Barkley is an exceedingly rare talent, if you don't see that, you don't know football.
RE: The Jets, who selected the immortal Sam Darnold  
lax counsel : 10/10/2018 2:23 pm : link
In comment 14117757 Chris684 said:
Quote:
and added him to what is probably a more complete team than NYG are only 1 game better in the standings against a weaker 5 game schedule.

Stop using team records to evaluate the individual draft pick.

Barkley is an exceedingly rare talent, if you don't see that, you don't know football.


Alright, by your standard, forgetting record, has he had such an impact on the offense comparable to last year, such that positional value warranted the number 2 pick? Outside of 8 minutes in Charlotte, is the Giants offense measurably better?

Who cares about Darnold, hes not a Giant? Also, he doesn't have to be good this year, his prime may not start for another two seasons. Barkley's prime started the day he touched the field.

No one is disputing his talent, the question is in positional value and overall impact on the offense.
RE: Too early to tell  
BleedBlue : 10/10/2018 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14117681 arniefez said:
Quote:
get back to me before the 2020 draft. But I hated the pick the minute it was made. Not because the player isn't a great talent. He is. But because the position is very easy to fill and a complimentary position. The Giants over spend the asset worth for almost every player they bring in. Whether it's elite contracts for players like Vernon and Solder or trading a 7th round pick for a punter. The 2nd pick in the draft for any RB is not worth the asset they spent for it. QB, Edge Rusher, OT or trade out of the pick for the best deal you could get.


if the position is so easy to fill why the fuck have we had DOG shit at the position for 7 years at least....

the position isnt easy to fill...plus we didnt just fill a position. barkley is the best player on the field when the giants offense trots out there. the kid is already the most gifted back in football IMO. imagine him running behind a solid OL?!? the kid is killing it now.

barkley was a great pick. him and OBJ will be great for years. in 2019 you get your QB and 2020-2023 you will have a few good run possibilities with some seriously talented offensive weapons
Re-visiting the 2018 draft  
fanofthejets : 10/10/2018 2:30 pm : link
As of now it seems both teams are quite happy with who they selected

You won't find a single Jets fan who wanted Barkley over Darnold. Not then and certainly not now. Not with the situation we were in at the time it made no sense. We were able to pick up Crowell and along with Powell we've gotten good production from our backs. The Giants did their scouting and didn't like Darnold or any other QB it seems enough to be confident in him being the heir apparent. While the Giants fanbase seems to be torn I think the people in the organization are content with the pick. Time will tell.
So you want to start the clock  
Chris684 : 10/10/2018 2:32 pm : link
on Barkley because he's a running back, I understand.

But re: Darnold entering his prime in 2 years, you would run an awfully big risk of damaging him, or any other young QB for that matter behind this offensive line. You think this OL situation has eaten up Eli? What do you think it would do to a youngster. Look at David Carr. Damaging a QB beyond repair behind a terrible OL is a real thing.

And if you want to draft the QB to have him sit? That's fine too, except then you're not arguing the cost savings a young, franchise QB leading you to victory on a rookie deal because instead he's sitting on the bench.

There are a lot of different ways to look at this aside from the lens of "The Giants are dumb and are now going to suffer QB hell for eternity".

Win this week? Maybe the Giants compete for the division?

Lose this week? Maybe the Giants are picking top 3 again, grab a QB they like better at the top of this draft and pair that + Saquon with another offseason of OL talent infusion and you're hitting the ground running in 2019.

A far cry from falling into the abyss.
RE: The Jets, who selected the immortal Sam Darnold  
fanofthejets : 10/10/2018 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14117757 Chris684 said:
Quote:
and added him to what is probably a more complete team than NYG are only 1 game better in the standings against a weaker 5 game schedule.

Stop using team records to evaluate the individual draft pick.

Barkley is an exceedingly rare talent, if you don't see that, you don't know football.


Why put that kind of pressure of Barkley? Gettleman sort of got the ball rolling with the "touched by God stuff" I've seen exceedingly rare talents. Earl, Barry coming out of Oklahoma State was just in another universe. Bo, Faulk, Dickerson etc. Barkley was an outstanding back coming out of college but it's not really fair elevating him to that level
RE: So you want to start the clock  
BleedBlue : 10/10/2018 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14117791 Chris684 said:
Quote:
on Barkley because he's a running back, I understand.

But re: Darnold entering his prime in 2 years, you would run an awfully big risk of damaging him, or any other young QB for that matter behind this offensive line. You think this OL situation has eaten up Eli? What do you think it would do to a youngster. Look at David Carr. Damaging a QB beyond repair behind a terrible OL is a real thing.

And if you want to draft the QB to have him sit? That's fine too, except then you're not arguing the cost savings a young, franchise QB leading you to victory on a rookie deal because instead he's sitting on the bench.

There are a lot of different ways to look at this aside from the lens of "The Giants are dumb and are now going to suffer QB hell for eternity".

Win this week? Maybe the Giants compete for the division?

Lose this week? Maybe the Giants are picking top 3 again, grab a QB they like better at the top of this draft and pair that + Saquon with another offseason of OL talent infusion and you're hitting the ground running in 2019.

A far cry from falling into the abyss.


love your logic. this has been my thought process all along...

people on BBI waste their fucking breathe with the QB vs barkley debate.
the giants made the decision that none of the QBs avail were worth the second pick. they got the best player in the draft who is ALREADY one of the best backs if not the best back in football.

If we win tomorrow, we could make a run at division (no matter how insane BBI thinks that sounds)

if we lose...fine. not worries, lets show improvement over the course of the season and allow DG and staff to do a ton of evaluating.

in 2019 we can go herbert or even OT in a great OL class and continue to improve.
It is fair if you take the word of multiple  
Chris684 : 10/10/2018 2:39 pm : link
NFL scouts, draft experts and college analysts who have said that they had not covered a prospect of Barkley's quailty in their 25 years on the job.

It is what it is.
RE: It is fair if you take the word of multiple  
fanofthejets : 10/10/2018 2:47 pm : link
In comment 14117800 Chris684 said:
Quote:
NFL scouts, draft experts and college analysts who have said that they had not covered a prospect of Barkley's quailty in their 25 years on the job.

It is what it is.


And there are plenty of socuts who saw him as a very good back but not generational good. I remember Reggie Bush being hyped to the moon too. For reasons I never understood

Barkley is going to have a very good career, but people maybe have forgotten what a true immortal back looks like. Earl Campbell went something like 15 carries 150 yards his first game. Sanders went 1470 yards in 15 games as the only offensive talent worth a damn on that Lions team with teams doing nothing but keying to stop him. If Barkley was that you'd already know. But he's not. Almost nobody is
RE: Re-visiting the 2018 draft  
Jay on the Island : 10/10/2018 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14117789 fanofthejets said:
Quote:
As of now it seems both teams are quite happy with who they selected

You won't find a single Jets fan who wanted Barkley over Darnold. Not then and certainly not now. Not with the situation we were in at the time it made no sense. We were able to pick up Crowell and along with Powell we've gotten good production from our backs. The Giants did their scouting and didn't like Darnold or any other QB it seems enough to be confident in him being the heir apparent. While the Giants fanbase seems to be torn I think the people in the organization are content with the pick. Time will tell.

Actually that's not true at all. I know several Jets fans that wanted Barkley and still do. These aren't casual fans either they are very knowledgeable about the sport.
RE: RE: Re-visiting the 2018 draft  
fanofthejets : 10/10/2018 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14117823 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14117789 fanofthejets said:


Quote:


As of now it seems both teams are quite happy with who they selected

You won't find a single Jets fan who wanted Barkley over Darnold. Not then and certainly not now. Not with the situation we were in at the time it made no sense. We were able to pick up Crowell and along with Powell we've gotten good production from our backs. The Giants did their scouting and didn't like Darnold or any other QB it seems enough to be confident in him being the heir apparent. While the Giants fanbase seems to be torn I think the people in the organization are content with the pick. Time will tell.


Actually that's not true at all. I know several Jets fans that wanted Barkley and still do. These aren't casual fans either they are very knowledgeable about the sport.


They're the ones who wanted him because he grew up a huge Jets fan idolizing Curtis Martin. I've known a few of those. They think it was written in the stars or something. Well Kevin Shattenkirk grew up a huge Rangers fan and how's that working out...that has no bearing on anything
RE: RE: It is fair if you take the word of multiple  
Jay on the Island : 10/10/2018 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14117812 fanofthejets said:
Quote:
In comment 14117800 Chris684 said:


Quote:


NFL scouts, draft experts and college analysts who have said that they had not covered a prospect of Barkley's quailty in their 25 years on the job.

It is what it is.



And there are plenty of socuts who saw him as a very good back but not generational good. I remember Reggie Bush being hyped to the moon too. For reasons I never understood

Barkley is going to have a very good career, but people maybe have forgotten what a true immortal back looks like. Earl Campbell went something like 15 carries 150 yards his first game. Sanders went 1470 yards in 15 games as the only offensive talent worth a damn on that Lions team with teams doing nothing but keying to stop him. If Barkley was that you'd already know. But he's not. Almost nobody is

Where are these alleged scouts? Barkley is that type of talent and this is coming from someone who wanted the Giants to draft Darnold over Barkley. Sanders wasn't close to the receiver that Barkley is. Barkley is 8 yards shy of Sanders receiving total from his rookie season in 10 fewer games. Barkley will surpass Sanders career high in receiving yardage this season. Comparing Barkley to Reggie Bush is absurd.
RE: RE: RE: Re-visiting the 2018 draft  
Jay on the Island : 10/10/2018 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14117831 fanofthejets said:
Quote:

They're the ones who wanted him because he grew up a huge Jets fan idolizing Curtis Martin. I've known a few of those. They think it was written in the stars or something. Well Kevin Shattenkirk grew up a huge Rangers fan and how's that working out...that has no bearing on anything

Nope, my friend Ian has had a man crush on him since college. None of them give a shit which teams he liked growing up lol. That's a reach.
RE: RE: RE: It is fair if you take the word of multiple  
fanofthejets : 10/10/2018 3:04 pm : link
In comment 14117838 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14117812 fanofthejets said:


Quote:


In comment 14117800 Chris684 said:


Quote:


NFL scouts, draft experts and college analysts who have said that they had not covered a prospect of Barkley's quailty in their 25 years on the job.

It is what it is.



And there are plenty of socuts who saw him as a very good back but not generational good. I remember Reggie Bush being hyped to the moon too. For reasons I never understood

Barkley is going to have a very good career, but people maybe have forgotten what a true immortal back looks like. Earl Campbell went something like 15 carries 150 yards his first game. Sanders went 1470 yards in 15 games as the only offensive talent worth a damn on that Lions team with teams doing nothing but keying to stop him. If Barkley was that you'd already know. But he's not. Almost nobody is


Where are these alleged scouts? Barkley is that type of talent and this is coming from someone who wanted the Giants to draft Darnold over Barkley. Sanders wasn't close to the receiver that Barkley is. Barkley is 8 yards shy of Sanders receiving total from his rookie season in 10 fewer games. Barkley will surpass Sanders career high in receiving yardage this season. Comparing Barkley to Reggie Bush is absurd.


I'm not comparing him to Reggie Bush. But comparing him to Barry Sanders is ridiculous.

Let me know when Barkley rushes for 2,600(!!!) at a 7.0+ ypc clip his senior year at PSU and then 1,470 in 15 games his rookie year on a team with nobody around him
You must know more than scouts then  
Jay on the Island : 10/10/2018 3:07 pm : link
because several of them compared him to Barry Sanders.
RE: You must know more than scouts then  
fanofthejets : 10/10/2018 3:12 pm : link
In comment 14117865 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
because several of them compared him to Barry Sanders.


They're allowed to, but there is no comparison. Barry Sanders 1988 was maybe the greatest performance anybody ever had playing football. Ever.
2018 QB draft class was compared to 2004 and 1983 QB classes?  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/10/2018 4:33 pm : link
GTFO. That's complete and total bullshit. Is this fucking idiot serious?
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