Knowing what we know now, I'd call Cle about trading up to #1 and taking Mayfield. I'd be fine taking Darnold at #2 and I'd be fine dropping back a few picks and taking Rosen/Allen.
In conclusion, I don't feel any better about our QB situation now.
but Barkley has won me over. I am hoping the Giants get Justin Herbert in the draft next season and come away with Ja'Wuan James in free agency for RT. They could then draft a guard on day 2 to compete with Omameh for the starting job and Barkley will become the best back in football.
He looks very good. Hopefully before his prime is done the Giants will build an o line that is at least in the bottom third of the league instead of rock bottom.
He looks special, and the available QBs haven't impressed*.
*obviously a long way to go
Agreed.
Allen looks like a guy destined for many sacks, low completion percentages, turnovers, and eventual injury.
The other two haven't jumped off the screen in any meaningful way. They have plenty of football ahead of them, but I don't see anything that distinguishes them from the next two crops of high first round quarterbacks.
now that it was the best choice. I wanted Barkley but also Mayfield. I would've hated the Giants if I saw SB lighting up the stat boards and highlight reels every week while we have a rookie qb sitting on the bench behind Eli. You dont pass on generational talent at a key postion.
By the time we're ready to compete who the hell knows what kind of player he'll be after the wear and tear.
Drafting him, paying Beckham, and moving forward with Eli were signs of a front office incapable of making on honest and difficult assessment of where this team actually is.
ELi and SB have both been held back by our awful OL plus confusion and play calling on offense. We will get it together soon I am hoping. Anyone expecting a quick start with this many new faces and rebuilding changes was kidding themselves. We could easily be 3/2 now with a few more plays by the offense. MO
but all of the QB's already have flashed at least something in their first 5 games of their career with less than stellar supporting casts, as well. Definitely don't feel any better than last season about our current QB/offensive situation, either.
He's shown promise, but I think people are still extending their hope into reality. He's flashed, and obviously the potential is there, but so far the offensive ineptitude overall has impacted Barkley as well and the production doesn't match his cost so far.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
is everything he was advertised as, but still would rather have gone Rosen/Darnold and even Denzel Ward (extreme hindsight on that one as he wasn't on the radar, but he has drastically made a difference on that Browns team more than anyone else). Right now we're living proof that pro bowl running backs can easily be wasted on bad teams.
I did not like Darnold, still do not. I liked Mayfield and Rosen. Mayfield was gone. If we were going to draft a QB at 2, it would have likely been Darnold, so if you force me to choose right this moment, I am happy. If you told me we could have traded down for extra picks, that would have been my choice. If we could have gotten Rosen, Michel and Hernandez, sign me up for that.
I liked was Mayfield and he was gone. I also was afraid of his off field issues so that said I was and still am very happy. Who know Kyle might be better than the rest of the Qbs taken in the first round.
Exceptional players are rare, can't limit your chance to acquire them narrowing your search to need. There's several "ordinary" QB prospects every year, and nowadays QB hell is less of a worry.
Barkley was the consensus best player in the draft on pretty much everyone's lips. He has talent at his position that hasnt been seen in while. He is a weapon that can take it to the house on any given play.
...but Saquon Barkley is even better than advertised!
He's the greatest show on two wheels, and he's driving behind one fucked up offensive line.
He is also mature and full of wisdom beyond his years, and if we are very, very lucky, which I doubt, some of his character will some how, some way rub off on our resident, semi-nut job OBJ.
Exceptional players are rare, can't limit your chance to acquire them narrowing your search to need. There's several "ordinary" QB prospects every year, and nowadays QB hell is less of a worry.
Hypothetical. We have the #1 pick next year. The clear cut best player is a WR and he's an elite talent. Do you take him? BPA
Exceptional players are rare, can't limit your chance to acquire them narrowing your search to need. There's several "ordinary" QB prospects every year, and nowadays QB hell is less of a worry.
Hypothetical. We have the #1 pick next year. The clear cut best player is a WR and he's an elite talent. Do you take him? BPA
Unless there is a franchise player there at another position, sure, I eould
hoping he fell to us before, because I thought he was an outstanding talent, and thrilled that the Giants took him, because I knew it meant tons of exhilarating moments for me as a Giants fan.
Exceptional players are rare, can't limit your chance to acquire them narrowing your search to need. There's several "ordinary" QB prospects every year, and nowadays QB hell is less of a worry.
Hypothetical. We have the #1 pick next year. The clear cut best player is a WR and he's an elite talent. Do you take him? BPA
If he is Megaton good I would. Then draft OL and LBers the rest of the draft
I would have been okay if the Giants felt good enough about a QB to pass on him. I wouldn't have been okay if they'd passed on him because they felt we needed a QB and you have to take one when you have a chance.
That's exactly how we ended up with the guy cut yesterday.
So far of this draft, including the touch of god Â
That hardly settles the argument, even if true. Some positions on a team are more important than others. Love watching Barkley play, but still would've chosen Darnold. Finding a suitable successor to Eli over the next year or two would relieve a lot of angst.
Yeah he extrapolates out to 1800 yards and 16 TDs. The team extrapolates out to 4-12/3-13.
Criticizing the pick isn't about the player. It's about roster construction and timing. That's been the argument those against the pick have been making since April.
It's a shame the Giants were only allowed to engage Â
Yeah he extrapolates out to 1800 yards and 16 TDs. The team extrapolates out to 4-12/3-13.
Criticizing the pick isn't about the player. It's about roster construction and timing. That's been the argument those against the pick have been making since April.
go up and get Justin Herbert next year then I will absolutely love the Barkley pick. You will at that point with some FA OL help have one of the most dangerous offenses in NFL short only to maybe KC or LA.
in roster construction during the offseason between 2017 and 2018. The roster is (apparently) cast in stone going forward.
It's also a shame there will never be an opportunity to get a young QB ever again.
Oh well.
The shame is that Barkley plays a position where the average career lasts 2.7 years. Let's play out what, to me, seems like the most realistic scenario for his career here leading up to his contract negotiation...
- Year 1 looks like it's going to be a losing season.
- Year 2 may not be all that different from year one considering we expect Eli and Shurmur back, and we also have massive needs on OL, DL, LB, and secondary.
- Year 3 we may be starting with a new QB. At present there is no plan for this QB. Even if Gettleman puts together a strong roster by this point there is a possibility that it is undercut by QB problems (I also wouldn't rule out Eli still being the QB at this point).
- Year 4, assuming he is still in peak form at the most attritional position on the field, may be a sweet spot year for Barkley's career intersecting with a quality roster around him
- Year 5 may be impacted by a contract negotiation. If the Giants have been a losing team during the previous 4 years whomever the GM is may be asking the question, "If we can lose with him why can't we lose without him?"
That's a realistic scenario assuming no injuries and a successful effort by Gettleman to reinfuse the roster with talent. History tells us though that there will be injuries and situations that impede Barkley's ability to be maximized. Shit, we're seeing that already. The offense has been mostly poor with him on it.
Made by a monumentally ignorant old man demonstrating an extraordinary level of organizational ineptitude and zero understanding of roster construction, modern football, and basic concepts like positional value. An incredible opportunity squandered by a team destined to be anchored to the bottom of the league by the incapable morons in leadership positions who will count their money while the fans suffer through an extended period of misery until they lose interest.
That hardly settles the argument, even if true. Some positions on a team are more important than others. Love watching Barkley play, but still would've chosen Darnold. Finding a suitable successor to Eli over the next year or two would relieve a lot of angst.
Rather would take the surefire HoFer than the 1/3 chance franchise QB Eli/Rivers/Roethlisburger level. Wouldn't be too thrilled with a franchise Matt Ryan or Alex Smith QB either.
The Giants come out of the 2019 NFL draft with QB Justin Herbert. Eli comes back for one more season. The Giants are in the playoff hunt and finish 9-7.
Eli plays one more season elsewhere, probably Jax or Denver, and the keys are turned over to Herbert who had a full season to learn from a HOF'er. Herbert's 2nd season mirrors Eli's where he plays well as Barkley is a finalist for the MVP award as the Giants finish 10-6. Will Hernandez makes his first pro bowl and is 2nd team all-pro.
BBI is a far more pleasant place while we enjoy years of Herbert, Barkley, Beckham, Shepard, and Engram.
He's shown promise, but I think people are still extending their hope into reality. He's flashed, and obviously the potential is there, but so far the offensive ineptitude overall has impacted Barkley as well and the production doesn't match his cost so far.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
he is 7th in the NFL in yards from scrimmage....how much more production do you want? lol
we arent 1-4 because of him...this team has a bunch of holes and deficiencies
*this week* would be instructive of the dangers f passing on talent to force a position just because you simply have to have a guy at that position.
Roster construction takes a little time and you always get several bites of the apple. Best to pick talent when you can get it even if you have to wait for the next bite before you finish the Apple. Otherwise, all you’ll eat is the worm.
Than franchise QBs. Yes. I said it. But that depends on what you consider a franchise QB.
Brady Brees and Rodgers are the best still.
Anyone who wants to claim there's a huge difference between those ranked 3-10 is spitting hairs. The rules in today's NFL make it so much easier to be a very good statistical QB. Nick Foles helped win the Super Bowl for God's sake.
I would have picked Mayfield if he was there but Barkley was hardly a. We choice. Great pick
Wanted Rosen and still think that was the right choice. But watching Barks, I’ve already said “wow” more than a few times. Kid is worth the price of admission.
Made by a monumentally ignorant old man demonstrating an extraordinary level of organizational ineptitude and zero understanding of roster construction, modern football, and basic concepts like positional value. An incredible opportunity squandered by a team destined to be anchored to the bottom of the league by the incapable morons in leadership positions who will count their money while the fans suffer through an extended period of misery until they lose interest.
Said by a true football expert who really should be a GM for a top notch team. You can rave on all you want. The true test will be in the next three years when we all will see who is right and who is nothing but a big blow hard. You really should apply for a position with a team that can use your superior expertise.
RE: RE: It's a shame the Giants were only allowed to engage Â
The shame is that Barkley plays a position where the average career lasts 2.7 years.
Not trying to call out this poster as a lot of people keep pointing this out but that 2.7 years average for RBs is a terrible stat towards this situation. What really bothers me with that is it's an average which labels Barkley as average. Most of us are confident that Barkley will be well well above average. What's the average career length of AN ELITE RB? vs an average QB. As of now, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, etc have not shown anything more than average (which is normal as rookies). Hell, the average for a QB is 4.44 so are we really saying anything there?
There are 4 RBs in the HoF that started after 1990. Their career lengths average to 9.75 years. I'm not declaring Barkley a HoFer but this is far more likely to be his shelf life than 2.7 years. If any of the QBs turn out to be at least great (not just good) then you may have a mild argument.
How many offensive players are better right now? Not many. He makes plays others can’t. If he had help it would be record breaking already. Get him some blocking and keep developing the pass game with him and he’s an MVP in 2 years.
He was billed as a no risk HR. And that’s what we have.
Hopefully Gettleman dodged a bullet and he hasn't constructed a 7 or 8 win team.
The Giants look primed for a top 5 pick and will have another chance to choose one of the better QBs in a draft.
Bad teams should collect talent while they evolve. The Rams, Jags and Eagles are all contemporary examples of this working.
Barkley isn't going to turn into a pumpkin, he'll still be here if the Giants get a QB next April.
Extract the emotion -- the reality is Beckham, Engram and Barkley will all be under contract for years 1-3 of a QB selected next year. Barkley and Beckham will be under contract years 1-4.
This is a much better outlook than when Manning was selected and he won a ring in year 4.
He's shown promise, but I think people are still extending their hope into reality. He's flashed, and obviously the potential is there, but so far the offensive ineptitude overall has impacted Barkley as well and the production doesn't match his cost so far.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
he is 7th in the NFL in yards from scrimmage....how much more production do you want? lol
we arent 1-4 because of him...this team has a bunch of holes and deficiencies
How many touches does he have compared to other RBs? Forget the yards from scrimmage, which would be higher given the number of times he sees the ball. Look at YAC for receptions and YPC for rushes.
He might be great one day - but right now, he's decidedly good. And that's not worth the investment right now.
I don't mind people saying he has the potential, he's flashed, etc. But this sure fire HR, the returns we've already seen - where are they? What games have you guys been watching, because I've seen a 1-4 team with a RB who looks like he's got some talent but hasn't been able to do much. And we're talking about *production* now, not what he might do down the road.
How many offensive players are better right now? Not many. He makes plays others can’t. If he had help it would be record breaking already. Get him some blocking and keep developing the pass game with him and he’s an MVP in 2 years.
He was billed as a no risk HR. And that’s what we have.
the plays they made. If you count the plays they could have been making, or would have made if the rest of the team didn't stink, then SB leads the league.
Again - promising player, lots of potential - but his production to date doesn't match where some of you are putting him. It might someday, but not right now.
But this story won’t be written until Manning is gone and his successor is in place. If the Giants successfully draft a great QB in 2019 or 2020 then having Barkley + a great replacement for Manning will make DG look like a genius.
Made by a monumentally ignorant old man demonstrating an extraordinary level of organizational ineptitude and zero understanding of roster construction, modern football, and basic concepts like positional value. An incredible opportunity squandered by a team destined to be anchored to the bottom of the league by the incapable morons in leadership positions who will count their money while the fans suffer through an extended period of misery until they lose interest.
2.7 years is because a ton of them get drafted and a ton of them suck. It’s not all about injuries.
I bet the reverse is true with QBs if I even cared to look it up. Most of them have nice long careers being journeyman backups.
This shelf life thing is a tired and fruitless argument. Teams are investing in RB again, so I guess every team hat does that somehow doesn’t know the average RB shelf life?
But this story won’t be written until Manning is gone and his successor is in place. If the Giants successfully draft a great QB in 2019 or 2020 then having Barkley + a great replacement for Manning will make DG look like a genius.
This is true - but it requires us to do a whole lot of losing this year, and for a QB to end up worthy of that pick.
We had a much bigger field this year, and decided there wasn't one worthy of 2nd overall. The odds aren't in our favor.
however, we will soon find out that the QB position is more important over the long term and sometimes it takes several auditions and QBs to arrive at a more permanent solution. This pick likely sent us into another 5 years of average middling football with Eli fading right in front of us. The next guy we see after Eli will likely shock us all with respect to the levels of incompetency of this ownership.
He still has a bunch of football to play at Oregon, and it's not a sure thing he'll even leave school. And I'll essentially repeat what jcn just said...we had a QB-rich draft just occur and we took none with the second pick. Why should we assume that in a lesser QB draft we'll have a shot at an equal QB prospect with likely a lower pick than #2?
The strong odds are that the top 2 QBs on our depth chart in 2019 are Eli Manning and Kyle Lauletta. That's the route we chose when we picked Barkley.
That wasn't the consensus (at least on this board and many draft sites) before the draft. He was absolutely in the top group, but the discussion revolved around him being one of several (6-7) blue chips at the top of the draft.
And I don't believe his being "the most talented prospect" was the only consideration. I've asked this question in the past and I'll ask it again:
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
I'm the one who said it's obvious he's got some talent. Now, when you can find the other half of what you're claiming I said, I'll own it. I didn't, so we might be here awhile.
In the meanwhile, stop making up shit to make a point.
In the meanwhile, stop making up shit to make a point.
This was the other post I was talking about:
Quote:
He made my offseason by giving me hope
WillieYoung : 6:31 pm : link : reply
Reality has now set in and the Jets have their quarterback for the next 15 years and we're back to Danny Kannell and Kent Graham.
Maybe if you stopped bitching about everything the team does, you'd have understood what the fuck I was referring to.
Jesus, you are on another thread acting like we are just now hearing that flowers is a bad apple.
Lets play Barkley (projected) or Faulk rookie season Â
He's not a great player. Not yet, and maybe not ever.
Not what anyone wants to hear - but the production that would have to accompany calling him great just isn't there. And while I'm willing to cut him slack because of the overall offensive woes, that doesn't mean we can just pretend he's guaranteed greatness.
No again. Barkley is better now than Bell last year. And Bell isn’t playing now. When he comes back he’s on the cliff.
I’d take him over Kamara (who is one of the best players the league). Everything you see Kamara do? Barkley can do with much more power, quickness, and speed. Everything. Put Barkley on the Saints for Kamara and that’s a better team.
No production? Who said that? He’s had a 100 yards every game and they still aren’t using him enough in the pass game and he has an awful OL. He’s on pace for 100 catches , close to 2000 yards from scrimmage, and 15 TDS.
They start using isolating him more like the Saints do with Kamara and he,ll hit 2000 yards in year 1. And that’s a bottom of the heap OL and a fading QB.
That wasn't the consensus (at least on this board and many draft sites) before the draft. He was absolutely in the top group, but the discussion revolved around him being one of several (6-7) blue chips at the top of the draft.
And I don't believe his being "the most talented prospect" was the only consideration. I've asked this question in the past and I'll ask it again:
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
But, Eli didn’t retire. Everyone in the room liked Saquon enough, coupled with the fan outcry over the Eli benching. If Eli retired, the pick would have easily been QB.
Michael Lombardi during today’s Ringer podcast talks about the toughest thing to do is manage a declining great player. The destination may end up being correct if NYG is in a position to draft Herbert. You may not like how they arrived to it, but it would be hard to argue.
You guys are arguing different things IMO. Talent and ability wise, Barkley has no peer athletically, none, not even Odell. With all that ability he's still not elevating the team the way a great QB can. His effectiveness is stunted by middling QB play, terrible OL play and sub par receiving so far. He can affect a game and he will more as we go along and we keep feeding him.
bw believes RBs are fungible and should be sought later, he's not letting that go. KWALL believes that Barkley is the best gifted athlete of all those mentioned and I happen to agree but that's not what wins all the time. Just my take, it's two different arguments but the arguers are on opposite sides of the debate and always will be no matter what happens. Welcome to Giants discussions, where no ones mind ever changes but we beat others over the head in hopes to do so.
That's the whole point though. Hunt isnt that good an RB? I buy it. Hes a good, solid RB. I wouldn't pay him more than a few million a year if he were an FA. But he puts up big numbers in a productive offense. And before him, Spencer ware put up big numbers in a productive offense.
Gordon? Same deal for me. Good player, wouldn't pay him more than a few million. Puts up big numbers in a productive offense. And when he's not on the field? Austin Ekeler puts up big numbers in a productive offense.
The RB position is low value, highly dependent, and massively fungible. Far more so than any other position. Investing major resources in a RB is a low ROI move for those reasons. We all know this - it's been the case for a long time. Unfortunately our extremely dumb GM thinks football is the same as it was in 1935 and we have to suffer the consequences of his ignorance.
About the position and long term draft value? We’ll see. The position does decline faster than any other and gets impacted by dings and hits more than others (See Bell)
So he may be finished sooner and the long term draft value may be better for some other players (Rosen), Who knows at this point.
But the guy playing right now? Not many better than that guy certainly not Hunt or Gordon. Or AJ Green.
He makes any team much better including that shit show we have going on right now.
Nobody considers Hunt in the same league. He’s a good player. But limited.
He’s not close.
Kamara is close in many ways. Hunt isn’t close in any way. Barkley is in another league.
I served up Hunt's production. That's who he is right now. If the style points are important to you, then I guess you are a big fan of figure skating.
Really, here's my problem - saying it's "not close." That is such a poor choice of words. At this level, the differences are not as great as you think.
He is already doing things I have never seen a back do before . The leaping ability is crazy although he needs to pick his spots with that he is so competitive and wants to prove his worth . He will be no good to us damaging those wheels really my only concern . He has great hands but the thing that jumps out is the acceleration it's off the charts I don't know which team has the best O-line but imagine the yards he would rack up .
His first TD the 68 yard run pretty much said it all .
I think were in for many memorable games for him to come .
Put it this way. Open draft of all NFL players. Barkley goes in the elite tier . At the very top. Hunt does not.
It’s not close.
Barklwy makes an offense much tougher to defend. In the same situations, he’ll do much more for you. And he makes the offense a much tough matchup.
You know who’s a good comp for Hunt? Connor in PIT. That’s where he is. Connor cut weight this year and he’s more explosive. He’s better as a receiving threat. But those guys are closer than Hunt and Barklwy.
About the position and long term draft value? We’ll see. The position does decline faster than any other and gets impacted by dings and hits more than others (See Bell)
So he may be finished sooner and the long term draft value may be better for some other players (Rosen), Who knows at this point.
But the guy playing right now? Not many better than that guy certainly not Hunt or Gordon. Or AJ Green.
He makes any team much better including that shit show we have going on right now.
I agree. I think outside of Brady, Brees and Rodgers there are no other players I'd want over him. None of the others listed are even as close as impactful or dangerous.
Put it this way. Open draft of all NFL players. Barkley goes in the elite tier . At the very top. Hunt does not.
It’s not close.
Barklwy makes an offense much tougher to defend. In the same situations, he’ll do much more for you. And he makes the offense a much tough matchup.
You know who’s a good comp for Hunt? Connor in PIT. That’s where he is. Connor cut weight this year and he’s more explosive. He’s better as a receiving threat. But those guys are closer than Hunt and Barklwy.
You made an outlandish statement that "not many" current players are in SB's league. I listed 20 off the top of my head. (I could probably find another ten. Players who have an actual resume with results.)
And now you are trying to make a case against a guy, Hunt, who actually killed it his rookie year in the NFL. And is likely going to do the same thing this year.
Okay, fine. In your world of glitz and glamour, SB would go higher in this open draft concept. And I'll get Kareem Hunt, again, as a bargain selection and get at least 90-95+% of SB's "projected" value.
RE: And for the people saying simply that Barkley was the best prospect Â
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
They would have been forced to do so. All the years you've been on BBI, you've claimed the Giants should pick BPA. Now you have suddenly changed to becoming a butt loving Darnold fan. Just stop your BS. It's evidenced in all your posts.
Reality has now set in and the Jets have their quarterback for the next 15 years and we're back to Danny Kannell and Kent Graham.
It's still very early, but how exactly has Darnold shown he is the guy for the next 15 years? He has shown flashes, but is still prone to turnovers as he was in college. He averages more than 1 turnover a game for nearly 2 seasons worth of games.
I've pointed this out before but I think this is a huge point Â
I've never seen BBI so unanimously agree on a prospect as much as Herbert. And I personally love Herbert too. I like him more than any of the other QB prospects that came out this year, in fact. Considering everyone is saying 2019 is a weak QB class, I think that's astounding that we have all actually agreed we want this guy as our future QB, and we aren't even halfway through the college season yet. I just think he's going to be an absolute stud, and while I think Bosa may be a better overall prospect as far as a rating would go, I would still go with Herbert #1 overall if we had the pick because I think he's going to be a real winner.
RE: RE: And for the people saying simply that Barkley was the best prospect Â
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
They would have been forced to do so. All the years you've been on BBI, you've claimed the Giants should pick BPA. Now you have suddenly changed to becoming a butt loving Darnold fan. Just stop your BS. It's evidenced in all your posts.
Rub your hiney and move on.
If the Giants start running the team the way I would, then yeah BPA always makes sense. But that's not how they operate.
I'm less troubled by missing out on Darnold than I am by what I believe to be a complete lack of a plan. But hey if you want to ignore it and say "trust them" for the sixth year in a row, that's your prerogative.
We should all be rubbing our asses because the incompetence at the top has been fucking all of us. Some of us are done kidding ourselves about it.
RE: I've pointed this out before but I think this is a huge point Â
I've never seen BBI so unanimously agree on a prospect as much as Herbert. And I personally love Herbert too. I like him more than any of the other QB prospects that came out this year, in fact. Considering everyone is saying 2019 is a weak QB class, I think that's astounding that we have all actually agreed we want this guy as our future QB, and we aren't even halfway through the college season yet. I just think he's going to be an absolute stud, and while I think Bosa may be a better overall prospect as far as a rating would go, I would still go with Herbert #1 overall if we had the pick because I think he's going to be a real winner.
Really? Unanimous?
There are a few of us - considering we are in your BBI world - who feel the same exact way about Will Grier.
I still don't believe any of the 4 QBs are special Â
players. Mayfield is the best right now and he is good, but I don't see a special player. Darnold is next and he is even less special. Rosen and Allen are in another class right now.
I truly believe Barkley is already a special player and should be even better and more dynamic with more improvements on the OL.
Wasn’t very good in the 2nd half of last year. He was ok.
This year?
He hasn’t been very good. He made one play vs PIT on a 10 yard pass. He got past the rookie DB on PIT for a nice TD. Big game vs DEN. The rest of the time. An ok NFL starter.
And the “league” stuff was only said about Hunt. No one else.
I said he’s better than some of the others like Gordon. But Hunt? He’s much better.
The Resume stuff means nothing. I’m talking about the players right now. Not their stats over a few years. Lot of things go into rush stats and all of those things are working against Barkley.
But it’s not even that. You split Hunt wide and you can put an average LB on him and your fine. You swing him out of the backfield? The D isn’t worried about it or doing anything to stop it.
And open draft of all nfl players, the first 10-15 picks would all be QBs. No running back would go in the top 30 unless gettleman was involved. Probably not in the top 100.
But it’s not even that. You split Hunt wide and you can put an average LB on him and your fine. You swing him out of the backfield? The D isn’t worried about it or doing anything to stop it.
With Barkley it’s another story.
Well, that (catches) is true, but it's misleading. Mahomes is going downfield a helluva lot more than Smith did. The days of Chiefs WRs struggling to get TDs in over. But when Smith was there we clearly saw what Hunt an do as a receiver.
Meanwhile, Eli has checked down considerably more. So it makes sense from a # of catches lens that SB will have more.
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
They would have been forced to do so. All the years you've been on BBI, you've claimed the Giants should pick BPA. Now you have suddenly changed to becoming a butt loving Darnold fan. Just stop your BS. It's evidenced in all your posts.
Rub your hiney and move on.
If the Giants start running the team the way I would, then yeah BPA always makes sense. But that's not how they operate.
I'm less troubled by missing out on Darnold than I am by what I believe to be a complete lack of a plan. But hey if you want to ignore it and say "trust them" for the sixth year in a row, that's your prerogative.
We should all be rubbing our asses because the incompetence at the top has been fucking all of us. Some of us are done kidding ourselves about it.
If you care about the cap like your other posts suggest, then you’d know that the timing simply wasn’t right to force a QB pick this year.
If the Giants took a QB, they would’ve had a ton of money tied up in Darnold/Rosen plus Eli this year and at least the dead money hit from an Eli cut next year. 1 maybe 2 years wasted of a cheap rookie QB deal. Then factor in the terrible situation the new QB would be walking into — terrible OL and the media frenzy taking over for Eli. Definitely not optimal imv.
Hunt might not even go in the top 500. That's about the 16th round. I certainly wouldn't pick him earlier than that. But you might be right - it just depends on who's doing the drafting. The Jags did just pick fournette at 4, which is probably even dumber than taking Barkley at 2.
I wouldn't even consider an rb in the top 300 of that draft. I would easily pick the tenth best OG in the league over the #1 rated rb.
RE: RE: I've pointed this out before but I think this is a huge point Â
I've never seen BBI so unanimously agree on a prospect as much as Herbert. And I personally love Herbert too. I like him more than any of the other QB prospects that came out this year, in fact. Considering everyone is saying 2019 is a weak QB class, I think that's astounding that we have all actually agreed we want this guy as our future QB, and we aren't even halfway through the college season yet. I just think he's going to be an absolute stud, and while I think Bosa may be a better overall prospect as far as a rating would go, I would still go with Herbert #1 overall if we had the pick because I think he's going to be a real winner.
Really? Unanimous?
There are a few of us - considering we are in your BBI world - who feel the same exact way about Will Grier.
Sorry dude, my bad, didn't mean to speak for everyone. I was just going by the fact that so often I see Herbert's name randomly pop up in BBI discussions when we aren't even talking about the 2019 draft yet. But then again I may be biased because I love me some Herbert and that's probably why I notice it so often. I'm sure there are plenty of people who like Grier as well and I don't claim to be the end-all-be-all expert on which current 19 yr old kid is going to be the next HOF QB. Let's just hope DG and PS know what the hell they're doing and pick the right guy whether its 2019, 2020, hell even 2021, I don't care as long as they get the *right* guy.
He's not a great player. Not yet, and maybe not ever.
Not what anyone wants to hear - but the production that would have to accompany calling him great just isn't there. And while I'm willing to cut him slack because of the overall offensive woes, that doesn't mean we can just pretend he's guaranteed greatness.
The first 5 games of his career he has gained over100 yards from scrimmage. Only 2 other players in the history off the game has done that. One had seven and one 5. Yea no production.....
Sorry dude, my bad, didn't mean to speak for everyone. I was just going by the fact that so often I see Herbert's name randomly pop up in BBI discussions when we aren't even talking about the 2019 draft yet. But then again I may be biased because I love me some Herbert and that's probably why I notice it so often. I'm sure there are plenty of people who like Grier as well and I don't claim to be the end-all-be-all expert on which current 19 yr old kid is going to be the next HOF QB. Let's just hope DG and PS know what the hell they're doing and pick the right guy whether its 2019, 2020, hell even 2021, I don't care as long as they get the *right* guy.
Just needling you a bit. There is a strong camp for Herbert. He certainly looks the part physically. I've seen two full games this year and was impressed with his ability to change arm angles to make plays.
A bunch of posters in this thread has pointed out and bitched that the reason the Giants suck right now is that they drafted for need instead of BPA in the past (IE: Flowers). Yet here they drafted the BPA in the whole draft and because they didn't reach (in the Giants mind) for a QB that posters like it's now wrong to draft BPA, it's absurd to see.
And I am sure he will give us many highlight real plays.
I am rooting for him and the team.
I stick by what I said at the time, I don't think RB at 2 is good value especially behind our o-line...
You can have all the skill position players in the world. If you don't have a decent o-line, your offense is going nowhere.
I don't know what offers there really were, but I was a proponent of trading down. I had dreams of picking up Nelson. and one of the tackles, possibly one of the centers...
Imagine if we were able to pick McGlinchey and Ragnow, who both seem to be getting going along with Hernandez.
I know starting 3 rookies would cause some serious growing pains, but imagine how much better we would feel about the o-line, now and in the future, and the team in general right now. Now, I feel we are forever mired down by a completely ineffective o-line. With no end in sight.
However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
but I think Barkley just edges it. He really looks like a generational talent at the position so far and that is on a terrible offense.
If I had to wager on a player from this draft class being a hall of famer then it is Barkley. However, it is a very fair critique that Darnold or Allen may be better value in the W column long term.
I do feel there won't be a chance to draft another Barkley whereas QBs like Darnold or Allen will come around again and hence I'd take Barkley.
I'd also say leaving wins and value out of the equation just the joy he brings me watching him is frankly brilliant. I haven't had this much fun watching a losing team ever.
only 3 RBs taken in the first round are no longer playing in the NFL - Bishop Stanley, Trent Richardson and David Wilson. Sankey and Trent are playing, just not in the NFL. Wilson is the only one that isn’t playing due to health.
AP is still playing, Bush only recently retired, McFadden retired last year.
The short shelf life doesn’t apply to top picks at the position. It doesn’t even apply to 2nd round RBs either.
I don’t even watch college ball and the decision Â
was a no-brainer if our QB guru didn’t feel any of the QBs were franchise-worthy. Only question is how he viewed Mayfield. It’s almost that simple. The discussion is so silly, especially at this point in time. But it’s what we’re here for albeit the same RIGID points are beaten ad nauseum
If we passed on a Luck or Peyton, I could understand the continual griping but there wasn't. In the next two drafts there will be available QBs equal to those in this year's draft.
Meanwhile, we get to watch a fantastic football player. That really sucks. Sometimes I wonder why people watch sports.
The only top 10 QB picks to win a Super Bowl this century are the Mannings and Trent Dilfer.
Franchise QBs are way more about where they land and not necessarily when they were drafted.
If you trust Shurmur and Shula, they will be able to build up a guy they pick this year, even if it's not the 2nd pick overall.
That said, it's not going to hurt pairing a good system with the most talented QB. Thankfully some of the middling moves Gettleman made have backfired and the Giants aren't an 8-8 team. Getting one of the best players on each round is a benifit.
RE: Barkley has been better than expected so far Â
However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
the OL needed to be fixed no matter what. A rookie QB behind this OL with a sub-par run game and a couple of weapons would have been crap ... a vet SB MVP QB with a talented runner and slightly improved OL (still kinda bad) with some weapons at least give us a shot.
Next yr stage 2 of the OL rebuild will be complete. The QB whoever it turns out to be (Eli/FA/Rookie/Kyle) should have better protection the RB should have better lanes ... and we already have the weapons (a true #2 WR would be nice though). Get 2ndary and LB depth and it is on an popping ...
I think ultimately we'll be happy with the pick, but if one of those QBs becomes part of a generation that performs similar to the Brees/Brady/Rodgers guard, then we'll probably regret it.
But I think we're too quick to assume that's happening. If Darnold/Mayfield/Rosen end up more like the Matt Ryans or Matt Stafford's of today's NFL, I think we'll be very happy with our pick. And that's not a knock on those guys. They're great QBs. But you can pluck a QB late in the first round or off FA and they can have the same success as those guys (maybe not the same numbers).
I don't think you can just get a game-changing RB like that.
So in short, if those QBs become sure-fire Hall of Famers, then yeah, we'll regret it. But I think we all have to appreciate how big an "if" that is.
RE: Barkley has been better than expected so far Â
However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
That's faulty logic. With Darnold/Rosen we're probably sitting at 0-5 and would've had to watch Jonathan Stewart starting for 3 games!
Why is Barkley expected to immediately turn around a 3 win team, but a rookie QB is allowed several years?
RE: RE: Barkley has been better than expected so far Â
However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
That's faulty logic. With Darnold/Rosen we're probably sitting at 0-5 and would've had to watch Jonathan Stewart starting for 3 games!
Why is Barkley expected to immediately turn around a 3 win team, but a rookie QB is allowed several years?
Why is it you assume that a change at QB has us losing more games instead of winning more? Especially with a mobile QB, who might offset some of the rush allowed by that porous line?
1. Drafting a QB doesn't guarantee he starts and with Eli still here, I doubt he would've. After a poor start to the season, sure, but not out of the gate.
2. Barkley's averaging >100 yds from scrimmage and 1 TD/game and this team is still struggling to score. You think the combo of Stewart and Gallman would even come close to that?
3. The one win was with Eli going 25-29 297 yds and 2 TDs. Nothing I've seen from Darnold/Rosen/Allen make me believe they would've done that.
1. Drafting a QB doesn't guarantee he starts and with Eli still here, I doubt he would've. After a poor start to the season, sure, but not out of the gate.
2. Barkley's averaging >100 yds from scrimmage and 1 TD/game and this team is still struggling to score. You think the combo of Stewart and Gallman would even come close to that?
3. The one win was with Eli going 25-29 297 yds and 2 TDs. Nothing I've seen from Darnold/Rosen/Allen make me believe they would've done that.
1. Drafting a QB doesn't mean he starts right away, but it also doesn't guarantee they retain Eli.
2. Maybe not - but given the number of times they have to target Barkley, Gallman's production might not have been far off.
3. Fair enough - but that's one game out of 5. And that implies you couldn't beat the Texans with a weaker performance by the QB. The Texans haven't exactly been a powerhouse this season.
last season pretty much guaranteed Eli was returning and starting this season.
That one was the only game the Giants won. I'm not some blind fan that thinks Eli can still produce like his prime with better OL (hi dep!), but he's completed >70% of his passes and thrown only 2 INTs. I believe Darnold has been the best of the 3 and he's completing 55% of his passes with 6 INTs. And it's not like he's scrambling for big first downs. He has 13 yds on 13 rushes.
Allen's made some plays with his feet, but he's looked as advertised throwing the ball.
I really don't see anyway the Giants would be better with one of the rookie QBs this season. Long term? I can see this argument, but this year would be dreadful.
RE: RE: Barkley has been better than expected so far Â
However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
That's faulty logic. With Darnold/Rosen we're probably sitting at 0-5 and would've had to watch Jonathan Stewart starting for 3 games!
Why is Barkley expected to immediately turn around a 3 win team, but a rookie QB is allowed several years?
Dude - Do you watch football? Rookie RB is the biggest impact position around. Have you heard of Kamara and Hunt?
Is 0-5 really that much worse than 1-4? Stewart is out for the year injured, so we would be watching Wayne Gallman (BTW, he plays for the Giants), who is actually pretty good.
Finally, Rookie QBs don't take "several years", but continue on with your babbling.
Dude - Do you watch football? Rookie RB is the biggest impact position around. Have you heard of Kamara and Hunt?
Is 0-5 really that much worse than 1-4? Stewart is out for the year injured, so we would be watching Wayne Gallman (BTW, he plays for the Giants), who is actually pretty good.
Finally, Rookie QBs don't take "several years", but continue on with your babbling.
Stewart was healthy games 1-3, hence why he'd start 3 games (or at least see considerable action).
Gallman's a decent backup, but he's not in Barkley's league.
Chiefs lost 2 more games last year than 2016, so by your logic Hunt was a shitty pick.
RE: RE: RE: Barkley has been better than expected so far Â
However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
That's faulty logic. With Darnold/Rosen we're probably sitting at 0-5 and would've had to watch Jonathan Stewart starting for 3 games!
Why is Barkley expected to immediately turn around a 3 win team, but a rookie QB is allowed several years?
Dude - Do you watch football? Rookie RB is the biggest impact position around. Have you heard of Kamara and Hunt?
Is 0-5 really that much worse than 1-4? Stewart is out for the year injured, so we would be watching Wayne Gallman (BTW, he plays for the Giants), who is actually pretty good.
Finally, Rookie QBs don't take "several years", but continue on with your babbling.
So you're ready to declare Darnold/Rosen/Allen finished projects? If that's the case, I'm thrilled we avoided them!
Bortles looked like an ascending QB after year 2 (4400+ yds, ~35 TDs).
Winston was the next great QB after starting his career with back-to-back >4000 yd seasons.
Carr was made one of the highest paid QBs after his 3rd season and it's been downhill (fast) since then.
Prescott looked great year 1, I wouldn't be giving him anything close to franchise money now.
I would have taken Chubb ... Non-existent pass rush problem solved. I think that would have made a bigger impact on THIS season than Barkley. He is awesome, but lack of pass rush is crippling this defense.
So you're ready to declare Darnold/Rosen/Allen finished projects? If that's the case, I'm thrilled we avoided them!
Bortles looked like an ascending QB after year 2 (4400+ yds, ~35 TDs).
Winston was the next great QB after starting his career with back-to-back >4000 yd seasons.
Carr was made one of the highest paid QBs after his 3rd season and it's been downhill (fast) since then.
Prescott looked great year 1, I wouldn't be giving him anything close to franchise money now.
I guess you like to ramble on and on and don't comprehend what folks actually type? Not sure how sitting behind Eli for a year declares a rookie QB as a "finished product"?
Yes, I think both Darnold and Rosen will be Franchise QBs in the league. So far they look the part.
Dak was a 4th round pick that no one really believed in. They should have put Romo back in, they would have won the Superbowl. Car was a second round pick. Neither fit in this conversation.
I was never a Bortles or Winston fan.
How do Goff and Wentz look?
He’s very clearly the best performer RIGHT NOW. That said, this team is mired in the basement with or without him and no matter how good he is if I’m 3 years the Giants are pathetic at QB and Josh Rosen is awesome then it will have been a blown pick. Barkley is lights out though. Maybe the most impressive rookie I’ve ever seen
He’s very clearly the best performer RIGHT NOW. That said, this team is mired in the basement with or without him and no matter how good he is if I’m 3 years the Giants are pathetic at QB and Josh Rosen is awesome then it will have been a blown pick. Barkley is lights out though. Maybe the most impressive rookie I’ve ever seen
He’s very clearly the best performer RIGHT NOW. That said, this team is mired in the basement with or without him and no matter how good he is if I’m 3 years the Giants are pathetic at QB and Josh Rosen is awesome then it will have been a blown pick. Barkley is lights out though. Maybe the most impressive rookie I’ve ever seen
Now with 6 games over 100. And making plays NOBODY makes in the NFL right now.
Yet here we are losing to a poor eagles team at home and staring at 1-5 with arguably the worst qb situation in the league. No doubt he’s fantastic, but unless he can throw, he’s not gonna be able to do enough.
He’s very clearly the best performer RIGHT NOW. That said, this team is mired in the basement with or without him and no matter how good he is if I’m 3 years the Giants are pathetic at QB and Josh Rosen is awesome then it will have been a blown pick. Barkley is lights out though. Maybe the most impressive rookie I’ve ever seen
You obviously never saw LT.
you're correct. I started watching the Giants in 1995 as a 10 year old.
We take someone besides Barkley and the QBs. The quarterbacks after Mayfield were not great prospects. Saddling yourself with the wrong developmental QB is more damaging than some of you guys are willing to admit and drafting high is not going to a problem for this team for another year or two.
Eli was still pretty damn good 5 years ago and we've all seen what we've accomplished as a team since then without an offensive line and a pass rush.
The Giants have the worst OL in football. So long as that remains true Â
Ah, but Dan Marino played in one and was a significant part of a very competitive team for many years. Barry's teams were competitive in
really only one year.
RE: And for the people saying simply that Barkley was the best prospect Â
That wasn't the consensus (at least on this board and many draft sites) before the draft. He was absolutely in the top group, but the discussion revolved around him being one of several (6-7) blue chips at the top of the draft.
And I don't believe his being "the most talented prospect" was the only consideration. I've asked this question in the past and I'll ask it again:
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
Actually, DG was quoted somewhere saying he would have drafted Josh Allen.
Nomad - please document DG’s comment about Allen. Â
There were no Peyton in that draft. No Brees. No Luck. There were talented qbs in that draft, just like any year. It's just that there were more than the average number of them.
As for Barkley, he is not your average high-level running back. This is a guy who get once a decade, at best. To quote Ernie Accorsi in his scouting report of Eli, "These guys are rare, you know."
How many players five games into their careers can you legit say “this guy has a good chance to be a hall of fame”. Barkley is THAT good, and that rare. I don’t care what position he plays. As a fan of the franchise, I’m happy. Would I prefer a hall of fame QB, come on, what kind of question is that.
Who was available at #2 at this point you look at and say “this guy is a legit all pro”? We drafted the best PLAYER who was available when we picked.
You don’t rebuild a team overnight. Drafting superstars is not a bad start...
The problem is having the top or a top RB in the league in this era doesn't mean much when it comes to winning and losing, especially in the playoffs.
Adrian Peterson and LDT were once a decade type RBs, yet the only year he even sniffed the playoffs was when Brett Favre came and turned the clock back that one year. Outside of that, Peterson's teams were never super bowl contenders. Tomlinson never played in a super bowl, either.
Look at the teams that have won Super Bowls in the last decade. Which one had a top running back? No matter how many times DG says that analytics about RB value are a crock, he's wrong.
Peter King said that DG is a dinosaur when it comes to scouting and drafting in today's NFL. It certainly seems like that is the case
How many players five games into their careers can you legit say “this guy has a good chance to be a hall of fame”. Barkley is THAT good, and that rare. I don’t care what position he plays. As a fan of the franchise, I’m happy. Would I prefer a hall of fame QB, come on, what kind of question is that.
Who was available at #2 at this point you look at and say “this guy is a legit all pro”? We drafted the best PLAYER who was available when we picked.
You don’t rebuild a team overnight. Drafting superstars is not a bad start...
Tomlinson and AP were that type of player. Neither one had much team success, especially in the playoffs. For the most part, a running backs best days are behind them by age 27-28. That scares the hell out of me when the Giants are years away from contending. Until they actually get a franchise QB, it doesn't matter what else they do, they will not be a contender.
Barkley's prime started game 1. Every year that the Giants suck, and make no mistake this team is at least 2 more years away from even thinking about being a contender, is a wasted year of Barkley's prime.
A franchise QB in today's NFL is worth significantly more than a hall of fame running back is. You don't have to be a hall of fame quarterback to be worth much more than a hall of fame running back
*obviously a long way to go
Knowing what we know now, I'd call Cle about trading up to #1 and taking Mayfield. I'd be fine taking Darnold at #2 and I'd be fine dropping back a few picks and taking Rosen/Allen.
In conclusion, I don't feel any better about our QB situation now.
Now if the OL could keep people off of him when he gets a handoff, who knows what he could accomplish.
I still can't believe the Browns passed on him. One of the top QB's would've still been there in the 5 spot.
Looks like a special player.
*obviously a long way to go
Agreed.
Allen looks like a guy destined for many sacks, low completion percentages, turnovers, and eventual injury.
The other two haven't jumped off the screen in any meaningful way. They have plenty of football ahead of them, but I don't see anything that distinguishes them from the next two crops of high first round quarterbacks.
By the time we're ready to compete who the hell knows what kind of player he'll be after the wear and tear.
Drafting him, paying Beckham, and moving forward with Eli were signs of a front office incapable of making on honest and difficult assessment of where this team actually is.
This OL might have created another David Carr out of any of those QBs.
Giants won't be the only team in on Herbert, if they even like him.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
Quote:
with SB and Herbert.
Giants won't be the only team in on Herbert, if they even like him.
We're looking good for the #1 overall pick.
We got him at #2.
Meanwhile, Dave in Hoboken has trouble keeping it in his pants when he watches Sam Darnold play.
The irony.
We got him at #2.
Based on what they've both done so far, do you believe Barkley's better than Mayfield?
And I realize we had no shot at Mayfield, but you did say best...
Fix the OL. Give him some running lanes.
no problem with the pick.
Saquon yesterday, Saquon today, and Saquon tomorrow
Meanwhile, Dave in Hoboken has trouble keeping it in his pants when he watches Sam Darnold play.
The irony.
people make such a big deal about that comment..
all he said was that he has rare God given talent..
period..
I just don't know when we will have a real good team around him.
...but Saquon Barkley is even better than advertised!
He's the greatest show on two wheels, and he's driving behind one fucked up offensive line.
He is also mature and full of wisdom beyond his years, and if we are very, very lucky, which I doubt, some of his character will some how, some way rub off on our resident, semi-nut job OBJ.
Hypothetical. We have the #1 pick next year. The clear cut best player is a WR and he's an elite talent. Do you take him? BPA
Quote:
Exceptional players are rare, can't limit your chance to acquire them narrowing your search to need. There's several "ordinary" QB prospects every year, and nowadays QB hell is less of a worry.
Hypothetical. We have the #1 pick next year. The clear cut best player is a WR and he's an elite talent. Do you take him? BPA
Unless there is a franchise player there at another position, sure, I eould
Nothing has changed.
But a total luxury pick that we didn't have the luxury of using.
So, I still stand firm - a wasted pick based on current and future ROI value.
Quote:
Exceptional players are rare, can't limit your chance to acquire them narrowing your search to need. There's several "ordinary" QB prospects every year, and nowadays QB hell is less of a worry.
Hypothetical. We have the #1 pick next year. The clear cut best player is a WR and he's an elite talent. Do you take him? BPA
If he is Megaton good I would. Then draft OL and LBers the rest of the draft
That's exactly how we ended up with the guy cut yesterday.
Hmmmm...how do I feel about drafting him?...Hmmm...
That hardly settles the argument, even if true. Some positions on a team are more important than others. Love watching Barkley play, but still would've chosen Darnold. Finding a suitable successor to Eli over the next year or two would relieve a lot of angst.
Criticizing the pick isn't about the player. It's about roster construction and timing. That's been the argument those against the pick have been making since April.
It's also a shame there will never be an opportunity to get a young QB ever again.
Oh well.
Criticizing the pick isn't about the player. It's about roster construction and timing. That's been the argument those against the pick have been making since April.
But all of those yards on THIS team!
It's also a shame there will never be an opportunity to get a young QB ever again.
Oh well.
The shame is that Barkley plays a position where the average career lasts 2.7 years. Let's play out what, to me, seems like the most realistic scenario for his career here leading up to his contract negotiation...
- Year 1 looks like it's going to be a losing season.
- Year 2 may not be all that different from year one considering we expect Eli and Shurmur back, and we also have massive needs on OL, DL, LB, and secondary.
- Year 3 we may be starting with a new QB. At present there is no plan for this QB. Even if Gettleman puts together a strong roster by this point there is a possibility that it is undercut by QB problems (I also wouldn't rule out Eli still being the QB at this point).
- Year 4, assuming he is still in peak form at the most attritional position on the field, may be a sweet spot year for Barkley's career intersecting with a quality roster around him
- Year 5 may be impacted by a contract negotiation. If the Giants have been a losing team during the previous 4 years whomever the GM is may be asking the question, "If we can lose with him why can't we lose without him?"
That's a realistic scenario assuming no injuries and a successful effort by Gettleman to reinfuse the roster with talent. History tells us though that there will be injuries and situations that impede Barkley's ability to be maximized. Shit, we're seeing that already. The offense has been mostly poor with him on it.
Quote:
Of which any the the QB's have.
That hardly settles the argument, even if true. Some positions on a team are more important than others. Love watching Barkley play, but still would've chosen Darnold. Finding a suitable successor to Eli over the next year or two would relieve a lot of angst.
Rather would take the surefire HoFer than the 1/3 chance franchise QB Eli/Rivers/Roethlisburger level. Wouldn't be too thrilled with a franchise Matt Ryan or Alex Smith QB either.
Look forward to continue to build a team around him...
Eli plays one more season elsewhere, probably Jax or Denver, and the keys are turned over to Herbert who had a full season to learn from a HOF'er. Herbert's 2nd season mirrors Eli's where he plays well as Barkley is a finalist for the MVP award as the Giants finish 10-6. Will Hernandez makes his first pro bowl and is 2nd team all-pro.
BBI is a far more pleasant place while we enjoy years of Herbert, Barkley, Beckham, Shepard, and Engram.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
he is 7th in the NFL in yards from scrimmage....how much more production do you want? lol
we arent 1-4 because of him...this team has a bunch of holes and deficiencies
He still needs to learn when to go between the tackles and when to give up on that and bounce it outside.
He should wind up being our best RB in team history if we don't fuck it up.
Let's not put him in the hall of fame yet please.
Roster construction takes a little time and you always get several bites of the apple. Best to pick talent when you can get it even if you have to wait for the next bite before you finish the Apple. Otherwise, all you’ll eat is the worm.
Brady Brees and Rodgers are the best still.
Anyone who wants to claim there's a huge difference between those ranked 3-10 is spitting hairs. The rules in today's NFL make it so much easier to be a very good statistical QB. Nick Foles helped win the Super Bowl for God's sake.
I would have picked Mayfield if he was there but Barkley was hardly a. We choice. Great pick
yeah, not so much since my view is they are the elite level.
Said by a true football expert who really should be a GM for a top notch team. You can rave on all you want. The true test will be in the next three years when we all will see who is right and who is nothing but a big blow hard. You really should apply for a position with a team that can use your superior expertise.
Not trying to call out this poster as a lot of people keep pointing this out but that 2.7 years average for RBs is a terrible stat towards this situation. What really bothers me with that is it's an average which labels Barkley as average. Most of us are confident that Barkley will be well well above average. What's the average career length of AN ELITE RB? vs an average QB. As of now, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, etc have not shown anything more than average (which is normal as rookies). Hell, the average for a QB is 4.44 so are we really saying anything there?
There are 4 RBs in the HoF that started after 1990. Their career lengths average to 9.75 years. I'm not declaring Barkley a HoFer but this is far more likely to be his shelf life than 2.7 years. If any of the QBs turn out to be at least great (not just good) then you may have a mild argument.
How many offensive players are better right now? Not many. He makes plays others can’t. If he had help it would be record breaking already. Get him some blocking and keep developing the pass game with him and he’s an MVP in 2 years.
He was billed as a no risk HR. And that’s what we have.
The Giants look primed for a top 5 pick and will have another chance to choose one of the better QBs in a draft.
Bad teams should collect talent while they evolve. The Rams, Jags and Eagles are all contemporary examples of this working.
Barkley isn't going to turn into a pumpkin, he'll still be here if the Giants get a QB next April.
Extract the emotion -- the reality is Beckham, Engram and Barkley will all be under contract for years 1-3 of a QB selected next year. Barkley and Beckham will be under contract years 1-4.
This is a much better outlook than when Manning was selected and he won a ring in year 4.
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He's shown promise, but I think people are still extending their hope into reality. He's flashed, and obviously the potential is there, but so far the offensive ineptitude overall has impacted Barkley as well and the production doesn't match his cost so far.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
he is 7th in the NFL in yards from scrimmage....how much more production do you want? lol
we arent 1-4 because of him...this team has a bunch of holes and deficiencies
How many touches does he have compared to other RBs? Forget the yards from scrimmage, which would be higher given the number of times he sees the ball. Look at YAC for receptions and YPC for rushes.
He might be great one day - but right now, he's decidedly good. And that's not worth the investment right now.
I don't mind people saying he has the potential, he's flashed, etc. But this sure fire HR, the returns we've already seen - where are they? What games have you guys been watching, because I've seen a 1-4 team with a RB who looks like he's got some talent but hasn't been able to do much. And we're talking about *production* now, not what he might do down the road.
Wow yourself - did I miss some production in there? Feel free to chime in.
How many offensive players are better right now? Not many. He makes plays others can’t. If he had help it would be record breaking already. Get him some blocking and keep developing the pass game with him and he’s an MVP in 2 years.
He was billed as a no risk HR. And that’s what we have.
At least 20.
Again - promising player, lots of potential - but his production to date doesn't match where some of you are putting him. It might someday, but not right now.
As many as Dan Marino.
Want more?
Sarcasm or stupidity?
I bet the reverse is true with QBs if I even cared to look it up. Most of them have nice long careers being journeyman backups.
This shelf life thing is a tired and fruitless argument. Teams are investing in RB again, so I guess every team hat does that somehow doesn’t know the average RB shelf life?
This is true - but it requires us to do a whole lot of losing this year, and for a QB to end up worthy of that pick.
We had a much bigger field this year, and decided there wasn't one worthy of 2nd overall. The odds aren't in our favor.
The strong odds are that the top 2 QBs on our depth chart in 2019 are Eli Manning and Kyle Lauletta. That's the route we chose when we picked Barkley.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
And I don't believe his being "the most talented prospect" was the only consideration. I've asked this question in the past and I'll ask it again:
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
And there are people calling Barkley a Hall of Famer.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
I'm the one who said it's obvious he's got some talent. Now, when you can find the other half of what you're claiming I said, I'll own it. I didn't, so we might be here awhile.
In the meanwhile, stop making up shit to make a point.
This was the other post I was talking about:
WillieYoung : 6:31 pm : link : reply
Reality has now set in and the Jets have their quarterback for the next 15 years and we're back to Danny Kannell and Kent Graham.
Maybe if you stopped bitching about everything the team does, you'd have understood what the fuck I was referring to.
Jesus, you are on another thread acting like we are just now hearing that flowers is a bad apple.
285 RA, 1173 yds, 4.1 ypc, 10.2 td, 60 rec, 415 yds, 6.9 ypc, 7.2 td
He is what he is right now - a dynamic player that certainly appears to be a playmaker and worthy of a high draft pick.
You fail.
Gordon isn’t better either.
Not what anyone wants to hear - but the production that would have to accompany calling him great just isn't there. And while I'm willing to cut him slack because of the overall offensive woes, that doesn't mean we can just pretend he's guaranteed greatness.
I’d take him over Kamara (who is one of the best players the league). Everything you see Kamara do? Barkley can do with much more power, quickness, and speed. Everything. Put Barkley on the Saints for Kamara and that’s a better team.
No production? Who said that? He’s had a 100 yards every game and they still aren’t using him enough in the pass game and he has an awful OL. He’s on pace for 100 catches , close to 2000 yards from scrimmage, and 15 TDS.
They start using isolating him more like the Saints do with Kamara and he,ll hit 2000 yards in year 1. And that’s a bottom of the heap OL and a fading QB.
285 RA, 1173 yds, 4.1 ypc, 10.2 td, 60 rec, 415 yds, 6.9 ypc, 7.2 td
You got the wrong Barkley.
Our guy is on pace for almost 100/catches. Close to 2000 from scrimmage. And 16 TDs.
You fail.
Gordon isn’t better either.
Hunt had 1,300+ yards as a rookie and nearly 5 ypc. 53 catches and 11 TDs. And he's off and running again this year.
I see your point - that's "not close"...
He’s not close.
Kamara is close in many ways. Hunt isn’t close in any way. Barkley is in another league.
And I don't believe his being "the most talented prospect" was the only consideration. I've asked this question in the past and I'll ask it again:
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
But, Eli didn’t retire. Everyone in the room liked Saquon enough, coupled with the fan outcry over the Eli benching. If Eli retired, the pick would have easily been QB.
Michael Lombardi during today’s Ringer podcast talks about the toughest thing to do is manage a declining great player. The destination may end up being correct if NYG is in a position to draft Herbert. You may not like how they arrived to it, but it would be hard to argue.
bw believes RBs are fungible and should be sought later, he's not letting that go. KWALL believes that Barkley is the best gifted athlete of all those mentioned and I happen to agree but that's not what wins all the time. Just my take, it's two different arguments but the arguers are on opposite sides of the debate and always will be no matter what happens. Welcome to Giants discussions, where no ones mind ever changes but we beat others over the head in hopes to do so.
You fail.
Gordon isn’t better either.
That's the whole point though. Hunt isnt that good an RB? I buy it. Hes a good, solid RB. I wouldn't pay him more than a few million a year if he were an FA. But he puts up big numbers in a productive offense. And before him, Spencer ware put up big numbers in a productive offense.
Gordon? Same deal for me. Good player, wouldn't pay him more than a few million. Puts up big numbers in a productive offense. And when he's not on the field? Austin Ekeler puts up big numbers in a productive offense.
The RB position is low value, highly dependent, and massively fungible. Far more so than any other position. Investing major resources in a RB is a low ROI move for those reasons. We all know this - it's been the case for a long time. Unfortunately our extremely dumb GM thinks football is the same as it was in 1935 and we have to suffer the consequences of his ignorance.
About the position and long term draft value? We’ll see. The position does decline faster than any other and gets impacted by dings and hits more than others (See Bell)
So he may be finished sooner and the long term draft value may be better for some other players (Rosen), Who knows at this point.
But the guy playing right now? Not many better than that guy certainly not Hunt or Gordon. Or AJ Green.
He makes any team much better including that shit show we have going on right now.
At this (very early)point I'm still more convinced of Barkley's worth than I am any of the QBs that were available.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
Darnold has shown next to nothing so far in the "franchise QB" department.
But the Jets clearly found their guy.
He’s not close.
Kamara is close in many ways. Hunt isn’t close in any way. Barkley is in another league.
I served up Hunt's production. That's who he is right now. If the style points are important to you, then I guess you are a big fan of figure skating.
Really, here's my problem - saying it's "not close." That is such a poor choice of words. At this level, the differences are not as great as you think.
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314 RA, 1282 yds, 4.1 ypc, 11 TD, 52 Rec, 522 yds, 10 ypc, 1 TD
285 RA, 1173 yds, 4.1 ypc, 10.2 td, 60 rec, 415 yds, 6.9 ypc, 7.2 td
You got the wrong Barkley.
Our guy is on pace for almost 100/catches. Close to 2000 from scrimmage. And 16 TDs.
Even better. Makes Faulk look like a chicken legged scrub. I was using some crap fantasy site "projection".
His first TD the 68 yard run pretty much said it all .
I think were in for many memorable games for him to come .
Put it this way. Open draft of all NFL players. Barkley goes in the elite tier . At the very top. Hunt does not.
It’s not close.
Barklwy makes an offense much tougher to defend. In the same situations, he’ll do much more for you. And he makes the offense a much tough matchup.
You know who’s a good comp for Hunt? Connor in PIT. That’s where he is. Connor cut weight this year and he’s more explosive. He’s better as a receiving threat. But those guys are closer than Hunt and Barklwy.
About the position and long term draft value? We’ll see. The position does decline faster than any other and gets impacted by dings and hits more than others (See Bell)
So he may be finished sooner and the long term draft value may be better for some other players (Rosen), Who knows at this point.
But the guy playing right now? Not many better than that guy certainly not Hunt or Gordon. Or AJ Green.
He makes any team much better including that shit show we have going on right now.
Put it this way. Open draft of all NFL players. Barkley goes in the elite tier . At the very top. Hunt does not.
It’s not close.
Barklwy makes an offense much tougher to defend. In the same situations, he’ll do much more for you. And he makes the offense a much tough matchup.
You know who’s a good comp for Hunt? Connor in PIT. That’s where he is. Connor cut weight this year and he’s more explosive. He’s better as a receiving threat. But those guys are closer than Hunt and Barklwy.
You made an outlandish statement that "not many" current players are in SB's league. I listed 20 off the top of my head. (I could probably find another ten. Players who have an actual resume with results.)
And now you are trying to make a case against a guy, Hunt, who actually killed it his rookie year in the NFL. And is likely going to do the same thing this year.
Okay, fine. In your world of glitz and glamour, SB would go higher in this open draft concept. And I'll get Kareem Hunt, again, as a bargain selection and get at least 90-95+% of SB's "projected" value.
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
They would have been forced to do so. All the years you've been on BBI, you've claimed the Giants should pick BPA. Now you have suddenly changed to becoming a butt loving Darnold fan. Just stop your BS. It's evidenced in all your posts.
Rub your hiney and move on.
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If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
They would have been forced to do so. All the years you've been on BBI, you've claimed the Giants should pick BPA. Now you have suddenly changed to becoming a butt loving Darnold fan. Just stop your BS. It's evidenced in all your posts.
Rub your hiney and move on.
If the Giants start running the team the way I would, then yeah BPA always makes sense. But that's not how they operate.
I'm less troubled by missing out on Darnold than I am by what I believe to be a complete lack of a plan. But hey if you want to ignore it and say "trust them" for the sixth year in a row, that's your prerogative.
We should all be rubbing our asses because the incompetence at the top has been fucking all of us. Some of us are done kidding ourselves about it.
Really? Unanimous?
There are a few of us - considering we are in your BBI world - who feel the same exact way about Will Grier.
I truly believe Barkley is already a special player and should be even better and more dynamic with more improvements on the OL.
This year?
He hasn’t been very good. He made one play vs PIT on a 10 yard pass. He got past the rookie DB on PIT for a nice TD. Big game vs DEN. The rest of the time. An ok NFL starter.
And the “league” stuff was only said about Hunt. No one else.
I said he’s better than some of the others like Gordon. But Hunt? He’s much better.
The Resume stuff means nothing. I’m talking about the players right now. Not their stats over a few years. Lot of things go into rush stats and all of those things are working against Barkley.
But it’s not even that. You split Hunt wide and you can put an average LB on him and your fine. You swing him out of the backfield? The D isn’t worried about it or doing anything to stop it.
With Barkley it’s another story.
But it’s not even that. You split Hunt wide and you can put an average LB on him and your fine. You swing him out of the backfield? The D isn’t worried about it or doing anything to stop it.
With Barkley it’s another story.
Well, that (catches) is true, but it's misleading. Mahomes is going downfield a helluva lot more than Smith did. The days of Chiefs WRs struggling to get TDs in over. But when Smith was there we clearly saw what Hunt an do as a receiver.
Meanwhile, Eli has checked down considerably more. So it makes sense from a # of catches lens that SB will have more.
The thing with Hunt is when he’s bad, he’s very bad. Non contributor. Barkley bad game is still close to 100 yards combined.
The thing with Hunt is when he’s bad, he’s very bad. Non contributor. Barkley bad game is still close to 100 yards combined.
3 of 4. He had only 1 carry against Denver in the finale. Granted, it was 35 yards and a TD... ;)
Hunt goes 200+.
He’s a good nfl starter. Limited. He’ll fall off the cliff fast too.
Just not the same player or close to it.
Connor or Hunt? Who would you take? I like Connor more.
Nothing he does is impressive. He makes an occasional play. But you should with 300 touches on a team with explosive players around you.
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In comment 14118264 Go Terps said:
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If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
They would have been forced to do so. All the years you've been on BBI, you've claimed the Giants should pick BPA. Now you have suddenly changed to becoming a butt loving Darnold fan. Just stop your BS. It's evidenced in all your posts.
Rub your hiney and move on.
If the Giants start running the team the way I would, then yeah BPA always makes sense. But that's not how they operate.
I'm less troubled by missing out on Darnold than I am by what I believe to be a complete lack of a plan. But hey if you want to ignore it and say "trust them" for the sixth year in a row, that's your prerogative.
We should all be rubbing our asses because the incompetence at the top has been fucking all of us. Some of us are done kidding ourselves about it.
If you care about the cap like your other posts suggest, then you’d know that the timing simply wasn’t right to force a QB pick this year.
If the Giants took a QB, they would’ve had a ton of money tied up in Darnold/Rosen plus Eli this year and at least the dead money hit from an Eli cut next year. 1 maybe 2 years wasted of a cheap rookie QB deal. Then factor in the terrible situation the new QB would be walking into — terrible OL and the media frenzy taking over for Eli. Definitely not optimal imv.
Nothing he does is impressive. He makes an occasional play. But you should with 300 touches on a team with explosive players around you.
"Nothing he does is impressive."
Welcome to the abyss.
I wouldn't even consider an rb in the top 300 of that draft. I would easily pick the tenth best OG in the league over the #1 rated rb.
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I've never seen BBI so unanimously agree on a prospect as much as Herbert. And I personally love Herbert too. I like him more than any of the other QB prospects that came out this year, in fact. Considering everyone is saying 2019 is a weak QB class, I think that's astounding that we have all actually agreed we want this guy as our future QB, and we aren't even halfway through the college season yet. I just think he's going to be an absolute stud, and while I think Bosa may be a better overall prospect as far as a rating would go, I would still go with Herbert #1 overall if we had the pick because I think he's going to be a real winner.
Really? Unanimous?
There are a few of us - considering we are in your BBI world - who feel the same exact way about Will Grier.
Sorry dude, my bad, didn't mean to speak for everyone. I was just going by the fact that so often I see Herbert's name randomly pop up in BBI discussions when we aren't even talking about the 2019 draft yet. But then again I may be biased because I love me some Herbert and that's probably why I notice it so often. I'm sure there are plenty of people who like Grier as well and I don't claim to be the end-all-be-all expert on which current 19 yr old kid is going to be the next HOF QB. Let's just hope DG and PS know what the hell they're doing and pick the right guy whether its 2019, 2020, hell even 2021, I don't care as long as they get the *right* guy.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
almost ponderous...
Not what anyone wants to hear - but the production that would have to accompany calling him great just isn't there. And while I'm willing to cut him slack because of the overall offensive woes, that doesn't mean we can just pretend he's guaranteed greatness.
The first 5 games of his career he has gained over100 yards from scrimmage. Only 2 other players in the history off the game has done that. One had seven and one 5. Yea no production.....
You would take the 10th best guard over Barkley and also 300 NFL players over him (10 players on every team?)
No you wouldn’t.
Sorry dude, my bad, didn't mean to speak for everyone. I was just going by the fact that so often I see Herbert's name randomly pop up in BBI discussions when we aren't even talking about the 2019 draft yet. But then again I may be biased because I love me some Herbert and that's probably why I notice it so often. I'm sure there are plenty of people who like Grier as well and I don't claim to be the end-all-be-all expert on which current 19 yr old kid is going to be the next HOF QB. Let's just hope DG and PS know what the hell they're doing and pick the right guy whether its 2019, 2020, hell even 2021, I don't care as long as they get the *right* guy.
Just needling you a bit. There is a strong camp for Herbert. He certainly looks the part physically. I've seen two full games this year and was impressed with his ability to change arm angles to make plays.
I am rooting for him and the team.
I stick by what I said at the time, I don't think RB at 2 is good value especially behind our o-line...
You can have all the skill position players in the world. If you don't have a decent o-line, your offense is going nowhere.
I don't know what offers there really were, but I was a proponent of trading down. I had dreams of picking up Nelson. and one of the tackles, possibly one of the centers...
I will say Hernandez looks solid.
I know starting 3 rookies would cause some serious growing pains, but imagine how much better we would feel about the o-line, now and in the future, and the team in general right now. Now, I feel we are forever mired down by a completely ineffective o-line. With no end in sight.
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the way people dig in.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
almost ponderous...
Lol!!!!
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
If I had to wager on a player from this draft class being a hall of famer then it is Barkley. However, it is a very fair critique that Darnold or Allen may be better value in the W column long term.
I do feel there won't be a chance to draft another Barkley whereas QBs like Darnold or Allen will come around again and hence I'd take Barkley.
I'd also say leaving wins and value out of the equation just the joy he brings me watching him is frankly brilliant. I haven't had this much fun watching a losing team ever.
AP is still playing, Bush only recently retired, McFadden retired last year.
The short shelf life doesn’t apply to top picks at the position. It doesn’t even apply to 2nd round RBs either.
Meanwhile, we get to watch a fantastic football player. That really sucks. Sometimes I wonder why people watch sports.
Franchise QBs are way more about where they land and not necessarily when they were drafted.
If you trust Shurmur and Shula, they will be able to build up a guy they pick this year, even if it's not the 2nd pick overall.
That said, it's not going to hurt pairing a good system with the most talented QB. Thankfully some of the middling moves Gettleman made have backfired and the Giants aren't an 8-8 team. Getting one of the best players on each round is a benifit.
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
Ereck Flowers.
Next yr stage 2 of the OL rebuild will be complete. The QB whoever it turns out to be (Eli/FA/Rookie/Kyle) should have better protection the RB should have better lanes ... and we already have the weapons (a true #2 WR would be nice though). Get 2ndary and LB depth and it is on an popping ...
But I think we're too quick to assume that's happening. If Darnold/Mayfield/Rosen end up more like the Matt Ryans or Matt Stafford's of today's NFL, I think we'll be very happy with our pick. And that's not a knock on those guys. They're great QBs. But you can pluck a QB late in the first round or off FA and they can have the same success as those guys (maybe not the same numbers).
I don't think you can just get a game-changing RB like that.
So in short, if those QBs become sure-fire Hall of Famers, then yeah, we'll regret it. But I think we all have to appreciate how big an "if" that is.
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
That's faulty logic. With Darnold/Rosen we're probably sitting at 0-5 and would've had to watch Jonathan Stewart starting for 3 games!
Why is Barkley expected to immediately turn around a 3 win team, but a rookie QB is allowed several years?
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However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
That's faulty logic. With Darnold/Rosen we're probably sitting at 0-5 and would've had to watch Jonathan Stewart starting for 3 games!
Why is Barkley expected to immediately turn around a 3 win team, but a rookie QB is allowed several years?
Why is it you assume that a change at QB has us losing more games instead of winning more? Especially with a mobile QB, who might offset some of the rush allowed by that porous line?
2. Barkley's averaging >100 yds from scrimmage and 1 TD/game and this team is still struggling to score. You think the combo of Stewart and Gallman would even come close to that?
3. The one win was with Eli going 25-29 297 yds and 2 TDs. Nothing I've seen from Darnold/Rosen/Allen make me believe they would've done that.
2. Barkley's averaging >100 yds from scrimmage and 1 TD/game and this team is still struggling to score. You think the combo of Stewart and Gallman would even come close to that?
3. The one win was with Eli going 25-29 297 yds and 2 TDs. Nothing I've seen from Darnold/Rosen/Allen make me believe they would've done that.
1. Drafting a QB doesn't mean he starts right away, but it also doesn't guarantee they retain Eli.
2. Maybe not - but given the number of times they have to target Barkley, Gallman's production might not have been far off.
3. Fair enough - but that's one game out of 5. And that implies you couldn't beat the Texans with a weaker performance by the QB. The Texans haven't exactly been a powerhouse this season.
That one was the only game the Giants won. I'm not some blind fan that thinks Eli can still produce like his prime with better OL (hi dep!), but he's completed >70% of his passes and thrown only 2 INTs. I believe Darnold has been the best of the 3 and he's completing 55% of his passes with 6 INTs. And it's not like he's scrambling for big first downs. He has 13 yds on 13 rushes.
Allen's made some plays with his feet, but he's looked as advertised throwing the ball.
I really don't see anyway the Giants would be better with one of the rookie QBs this season. Long term? I can see this argument, but this year would be dreadful.
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However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
That's faulty logic. With Darnold/Rosen we're probably sitting at 0-5 and would've had to watch Jonathan Stewart starting for 3 games!
Why is Barkley expected to immediately turn around a 3 win team, but a rookie QB is allowed several years?
Dude - Do you watch football? Rookie RB is the biggest impact position around. Have you heard of Kamara and Hunt?
Is 0-5 really that much worse than 1-4? Stewart is out for the year injured, so we would be watching Wayne Gallman (BTW, he plays for the Giants), who is actually pretty good.
Finally, Rookie QBs don't take "several years", but continue on with your babbling.
Dude - Do you watch football? Rookie RB is the biggest impact position around. Have you heard of Kamara and Hunt?
Is 0-5 really that much worse than 1-4? Stewart is out for the year injured, so we would be watching Wayne Gallman (BTW, he plays for the Giants), who is actually pretty good.
Finally, Rookie QBs don't take "several years", but continue on with your babbling.
Stewart was healthy games 1-3, hence why he'd start 3 games (or at least see considerable action).
Gallman's a decent backup, but he's not in Barkley's league.
Chiefs lost 2 more games last year than 2016, so by your logic Hunt was a shitty pick.
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In comment 14118516 ZogZerg said:
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However, I would still rather they picked a QB - Josh Rosen (or even Darnold).
The 2 studds - Beckham and Barkley - have the Giants at 1-4.
I'd rather the Giants be in position do dump Eli next year, free up 19 million, sign a few quality players in FA, and roll out a young, future, QB that had year to learn and grow under Eli. Instead, we have no future QB moving forward and a disaster year on hand. Future looks like the present, a big mess.
That's faulty logic. With Darnold/Rosen we're probably sitting at 0-5 and would've had to watch Jonathan Stewart starting for 3 games!
Why is Barkley expected to immediately turn around a 3 win team, but a rookie QB is allowed several years?
Dude - Do you watch football? Rookie RB is the biggest impact position around. Have you heard of Kamara and Hunt?
Is 0-5 really that much worse than 1-4? Stewart is out for the year injured, so we would be watching Wayne Gallman (BTW, he plays for the Giants), who is actually pretty good.
Finally, Rookie QBs don't take "several years", but continue on with your babbling.
So you're ready to declare Darnold/Rosen/Allen finished projects? If that's the case, I'm thrilled we avoided them!
Bortles looked like an ascending QB after year 2 (4400+ yds, ~35 TDs).
Winston was the next great QB after starting his career with back-to-back >4000 yd seasons.
Carr was made one of the highest paid QBs after his 3rd season and it's been downhill (fast) since then.
Prescott looked great year 1, I wouldn't be giving him anything close to franchise money now.
Picture the offense without Barkley.
Just double Beckham all game. This team would never score.
So you're ready to declare Darnold/Rosen/Allen finished projects? If that's the case, I'm thrilled we avoided them!
Bortles looked like an ascending QB after year 2 (4400+ yds, ~35 TDs).
Winston was the next great QB after starting his career with back-to-back >4000 yd seasons.
Carr was made one of the highest paid QBs after his 3rd season and it's been downhill (fast) since then.
Prescott looked great year 1, I wouldn't be giving him anything close to franchise money now.
I guess you like to ramble on and on and don't comprehend what folks actually type? Not sure how sitting behind Eli for a year declares a rookie QB as a "finished product"?
Yes, I think both Darnold and Rosen will be Franchise QBs in the league. So far they look the part.
Dak was a 4th round pick that no one really believed in. They should have put Romo back in, they would have won the Superbowl. Car was a second round pick. Neither fit in this conversation.
I was never a Bortles or Winston fan.
How do Goff and Wentz look?
You obviously never saw LT.
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He’s very clearly the best performer RIGHT NOW. That said, this team is mired in the basement with or without him and no matter how good he is if I’m 3 years the Giants are pathetic at QB and Josh Rosen is awesome then it will have been a blown pick. Barkley is lights out though. Maybe the most impressive rookie I’ve ever seen
You obviously never saw LT.
Or Barry Sanders. Or Randy Moss.
Yet here we are losing to a poor eagles team at home and staring at 1-5 with arguably the worst qb situation in the league. No doubt he’s fantastic, but unless he can throw, he’s not gonna be able to do enough.
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He’s very clearly the best performer RIGHT NOW. That said, this team is mired in the basement with or without him and no matter how good he is if I’m 3 years the Giants are pathetic at QB and Josh Rosen is awesome then it will have been a blown pick. Barkley is lights out though. Maybe the most impressive rookie I’ve ever seen
You obviously never saw LT.
Eli was still pretty damn good 5 years ago and we've all seen what we've accomplished as a team since then without an offensive line and a pass rush.
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how many SBs did Barry Sanders win again?
As many as Dan Marino.
Ah, but Dan Marino played in one and was a significant part of a very competitive team for many years. Barry's teams were competitive in
really only one year.
And I don't believe his being "the most talented prospect" was the only consideration. I've asked this question in the past and I'll ask it again:
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
Actually, DG was quoted somewhere saying he would have drafted Josh Allen.
As for Barkley, he is not your average high-level running back. This is a guy who get once a decade, at best. To quote Ernie Accorsi in his scouting report of Eli, "These guys are rare, you know."
So we have to see what DG's plan is, cause I'm 100% sure it wasn't to go 1-5.
If DG drafts a winner at QB this year or somehow Lauletta turns into Superman, it was perhaps an alltime great pick.
How many players five games into their careers can you legit say “this guy has a good chance to be a hall of fame”. Barkley is THAT good, and that rare. I don’t care what position he plays. As a fan of the franchise, I’m happy. Would I prefer a hall of fame QB, come on, what kind of question is that.
Who was available at #2 at this point you look at and say “this guy is a legit all pro”? We drafted the best PLAYER who was available when we picked.
You don’t rebuild a team overnight. Drafting superstars is not a bad start...
He is a special, once a decade type running back.
The problem is having the top or a top RB in the league in this era doesn't mean much when it comes to winning and losing, especially in the playoffs.
Adrian Peterson and LDT were once a decade type RBs, yet the only year he even sniffed the playoffs was when Brett Favre came and turned the clock back that one year. Outside of that, Peterson's teams were never super bowl contenders. Tomlinson never played in a super bowl, either.
Look at the teams that have won Super Bowls in the last decade. Which one had a top running back? No matter how many times DG says that analytics about RB value are a crock, he's wrong.
Peter King said that DG is a dinosaur when it comes to scouting and drafting in today's NFL. It certainly seems like that is the case
How many players five games into their careers can you legit say “this guy has a good chance to be a hall of fame”. Barkley is THAT good, and that rare. I don’t care what position he plays. As a fan of the franchise, I’m happy. Would I prefer a hall of fame QB, come on, what kind of question is that.
Who was available at #2 at this point you look at and say “this guy is a legit all pro”? We drafted the best PLAYER who was available when we picked.
You don’t rebuild a team overnight. Drafting superstars is not a bad start...
Tomlinson and AP were that type of player. Neither one had much team success, especially in the playoffs. For the most part, a running backs best days are behind them by age 27-28. That scares the hell out of me when the Giants are years away from contending. Until they actually get a franchise QB, it doesn't matter what else they do, they will not be a contender.
Barkley's prime started game 1. Every year that the Giants suck, and make no mistake this team is at least 2 more years away from even thinking about being a contender, is a wasted year of Barkley's prime.
A franchise QB in today's NFL is worth significantly more than a hall of fame running back is. You don't have to be a hall of fame quarterback to be worth much more than a hall of fame running back