Exceptional players are rare, can't limit your chance to acquire them narrowing your search to need. There's several "ordinary" QB prospects every year, and nowadays QB hell is less of a worry.
Hypothetical. We have the #1 pick next year. The clear cut best player is a WR and he's an elite talent. Do you take him? BPA
If he is Megaton good I would. Then draft OL and LBers the rest of the draft
I would have been okay if the Giants felt good enough about a QB to pass on him. I wouldn't have been okay if they'd passed on him because they felt we needed a QB and you have to take one when you have a chance.
That's exactly how we ended up with the guy cut yesterday.
So far of this draft, including the touch of god Â
That hardly settles the argument, even if true. Some positions on a team are more important than others. Love watching Barkley play, but still would've chosen Darnold. Finding a suitable successor to Eli over the next year or two would relieve a lot of angst.
Yeah he extrapolates out to 1800 yards and 16 TDs. The team extrapolates out to 4-12/3-13.
Criticizing the pick isn't about the player. It's about roster construction and timing. That's been the argument those against the pick have been making since April.
It's a shame the Giants were only allowed to engage Â
Yeah he extrapolates out to 1800 yards and 16 TDs. The team extrapolates out to 4-12/3-13.
Criticizing the pick isn't about the player. It's about roster construction and timing. That's been the argument those against the pick have been making since April.
go up and get Justin Herbert next year then I will absolutely love the Barkley pick. You will at that point with some FA OL help have one of the most dangerous offenses in NFL short only to maybe KC or LA.
in roster construction during the offseason between 2017 and 2018. The roster is (apparently) cast in stone going forward.
It's also a shame there will never be an opportunity to get a young QB ever again.
Oh well.
The shame is that Barkley plays a position where the average career lasts 2.7 years. Let's play out what, to me, seems like the most realistic scenario for his career here leading up to his contract negotiation...
- Year 1 looks like it's going to be a losing season.
- Year 2 may not be all that different from year one considering we expect Eli and Shurmur back, and we also have massive needs on OL, DL, LB, and secondary.
- Year 3 we may be starting with a new QB. At present there is no plan for this QB. Even if Gettleman puts together a strong roster by this point there is a possibility that it is undercut by QB problems (I also wouldn't rule out Eli still being the QB at this point).
- Year 4, assuming he is still in peak form at the most attritional position on the field, may be a sweet spot year for Barkley's career intersecting with a quality roster around him
- Year 5 may be impacted by a contract negotiation. If the Giants have been a losing team during the previous 4 years whomever the GM is may be asking the question, "If we can lose with him why can't we lose without him?"
That's a realistic scenario assuming no injuries and a successful effort by Gettleman to reinfuse the roster with talent. History tells us though that there will be injuries and situations that impede Barkley's ability to be maximized. Shit, we're seeing that already. The offense has been mostly poor with him on it.
Made by a monumentally ignorant old man demonstrating an extraordinary level of organizational ineptitude and zero understanding of roster construction, modern football, and basic concepts like positional value. An incredible opportunity squandered by a team destined to be anchored to the bottom of the league by the incapable morons in leadership positions who will count their money while the fans suffer through an extended period of misery until they lose interest.
That hardly settles the argument, even if true. Some positions on a team are more important than others. Love watching Barkley play, but still would've chosen Darnold. Finding a suitable successor to Eli over the next year or two would relieve a lot of angst.
Rather would take the surefire HoFer than the 1/3 chance franchise QB Eli/Rivers/Roethlisburger level. Wouldn't be too thrilled with a franchise Matt Ryan or Alex Smith QB either.
The Giants come out of the 2019 NFL draft with QB Justin Herbert. Eli comes back for one more season. The Giants are in the playoff hunt and finish 9-7.
Eli plays one more season elsewhere, probably Jax or Denver, and the keys are turned over to Herbert who had a full season to learn from a HOF'er. Herbert's 2nd season mirrors Eli's where he plays well as Barkley is a finalist for the MVP award as the Giants finish 10-6. Will Hernandez makes his first pro bowl and is 2nd team all-pro.
BBI is a far more pleasant place while we enjoy years of Herbert, Barkley, Beckham, Shepard, and Engram.
He's shown promise, but I think people are still extending their hope into reality. He's flashed, and obviously the potential is there, but so far the offensive ineptitude overall has impacted Barkley as well and the production doesn't match his cost so far.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
he is 7th in the NFL in yards from scrimmage....how much more production do you want? lol
we arent 1-4 because of him...this team has a bunch of holes and deficiencies
*this week* would be instructive of the dangers f passing on talent to force a position just because you simply have to have a guy at that position.
Roster construction takes a little time and you always get several bites of the apple. Best to pick talent when you can get it even if you have to wait for the next bite before you finish the Apple. Otherwise, all you’ll eat is the worm.
Than franchise QBs. Yes. I said it. But that depends on what you consider a franchise QB.
Brady Brees and Rodgers are the best still.
Anyone who wants to claim there's a huge difference between those ranked 3-10 is spitting hairs. The rules in today's NFL make it so much easier to be a very good statistical QB. Nick Foles helped win the Super Bowl for God's sake.
I would have picked Mayfield if he was there but Barkley was hardly a. We choice. Great pick
Wanted Rosen and still think that was the right choice. But watching Barks, I’ve already said “wow” more than a few times. Kid is worth the price of admission.
Made by a monumentally ignorant old man demonstrating an extraordinary level of organizational ineptitude and zero understanding of roster construction, modern football, and basic concepts like positional value. An incredible opportunity squandered by a team destined to be anchored to the bottom of the league by the incapable morons in leadership positions who will count their money while the fans suffer through an extended period of misery until they lose interest.
Said by a true football expert who really should be a GM for a top notch team. You can rave on all you want. The true test will be in the next three years when we all will see who is right and who is nothing but a big blow hard. You really should apply for a position with a team that can use your superior expertise.
RE: RE: It's a shame the Giants were only allowed to engage Â
The shame is that Barkley plays a position where the average career lasts 2.7 years.
Not trying to call out this poster as a lot of people keep pointing this out but that 2.7 years average for RBs is a terrible stat towards this situation. What really bothers me with that is it's an average which labels Barkley as average. Most of us are confident that Barkley will be well well above average. What's the average career length of AN ELITE RB? vs an average QB. As of now, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, etc have not shown anything more than average (which is normal as rookies). Hell, the average for a QB is 4.44 so are we really saying anything there?
There are 4 RBs in the HoF that started after 1990. Their career lengths average to 9.75 years. I'm not declaring Barkley a HoFer but this is far more likely to be his shelf life than 2.7 years. If any of the QBs turn out to be at least great (not just good) then you may have a mild argument.
How many offensive players are better right now? Not many. He makes plays others can’t. If he had help it would be record breaking already. Get him some blocking and keep developing the pass game with him and he’s an MVP in 2 years.
He was billed as a no risk HR. And that’s what we have.
Hopefully Gettleman dodged a bullet and he hasn't constructed a 7 or 8 win team.
The Giants look primed for a top 5 pick and will have another chance to choose one of the better QBs in a draft.
Bad teams should collect talent while they evolve. The Rams, Jags and Eagles are all contemporary examples of this working.
Barkley isn't going to turn into a pumpkin, he'll still be here if the Giants get a QB next April.
Extract the emotion -- the reality is Beckham, Engram and Barkley will all be under contract for years 1-3 of a QB selected next year. Barkley and Beckham will be under contract years 1-4.
This is a much better outlook than when Manning was selected and he won a ring in year 4.
He's shown promise, but I think people are still extending their hope into reality. He's flashed, and obviously the potential is there, but so far the offensive ineptitude overall has impacted Barkley as well and the production doesn't match his cost so far.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
he is 7th in the NFL in yards from scrimmage....how much more production do you want? lol
we arent 1-4 because of him...this team has a bunch of holes and deficiencies
How many touches does he have compared to other RBs? Forget the yards from scrimmage, which would be higher given the number of times he sees the ball. Look at YAC for receptions and YPC for rushes.
He might be great one day - but right now, he's decidedly good. And that's not worth the investment right now.
I don't mind people saying he has the potential, he's flashed, etc. But this sure fire HR, the returns we've already seen - where are they? What games have you guys been watching, because I've seen a 1-4 team with a RB who looks like he's got some talent but hasn't been able to do much. And we're talking about *production* now, not what he might do down the road.
How many offensive players are better right now? Not many. He makes plays others can’t. If he had help it would be record breaking already. Get him some blocking and keep developing the pass game with him and he’s an MVP in 2 years.
He was billed as a no risk HR. And that’s what we have.
the plays they made. If you count the plays they could have been making, or would have made if the rest of the team didn't stink, then SB leads the league.
Again - promising player, lots of potential - but his production to date doesn't match where some of you are putting him. It might someday, but not right now.
But this story won’t be written until Manning is gone and his successor is in place. If the Giants successfully draft a great QB in 2019 or 2020 then having Barkley + a great replacement for Manning will make DG look like a genius.
Made by a monumentally ignorant old man demonstrating an extraordinary level of organizational ineptitude and zero understanding of roster construction, modern football, and basic concepts like positional value. An incredible opportunity squandered by a team destined to be anchored to the bottom of the league by the incapable morons in leadership positions who will count their money while the fans suffer through an extended period of misery until they lose interest.
2.7 years is because a ton of them get drafted and a ton of them suck. It’s not all about injuries.
I bet the reverse is true with QBs if I even cared to look it up. Most of them have nice long careers being journeyman backups.
This shelf life thing is a tired and fruitless argument. Teams are investing in RB again, so I guess every team hat does that somehow doesn’t know the average RB shelf life?
But this story won’t be written until Manning is gone and his successor is in place. If the Giants successfully draft a great QB in 2019 or 2020 then having Barkley + a great replacement for Manning will make DG look like a genius.
This is true - but it requires us to do a whole lot of losing this year, and for a QB to end up worthy of that pick.
We had a much bigger field this year, and decided there wasn't one worthy of 2nd overall. The odds aren't in our favor.
however, we will soon find out that the QB position is more important over the long term and sometimes it takes several auditions and QBs to arrive at a more permanent solution. This pick likely sent us into another 5 years of average middling football with Eli fading right in front of us. The next guy we see after Eli will likely shock us all with respect to the levels of incompetency of this ownership.
He still has a bunch of football to play at Oregon, and it's not a sure thing he'll even leave school. And I'll essentially repeat what jcn just said...we had a QB-rich draft just occur and we took none with the second pick. Why should we assume that in a lesser QB draft we'll have a shot at an equal QB prospect with likely a lower pick than #2?
The strong odds are that the top 2 QBs on our depth chart in 2019 are Eli Manning and Kyle Lauletta. That's the route we chose when we picked Barkley.
That wasn't the consensus (at least on this board and many draft sites) before the draft. He was absolutely in the top group, but the discussion revolved around him being one of several (6-7) blue chips at the top of the draft.
And I don't believe his being "the most talented prospect" was the only consideration. I've asked this question in the past and I'll ask it again:
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
I'm the one who said it's obvious he's got some talent. Now, when you can find the other half of what you're claiming I said, I'll own it. I didn't, so we might be here awhile.
In the meanwhile, stop making up shit to make a point.
Quote:
Exceptional players are rare, can't limit your chance to acquire them narrowing your search to need. There's several "ordinary" QB prospects every year, and nowadays QB hell is less of a worry.
Hypothetical. We have the #1 pick next year. The clear cut best player is a WR and he's an elite talent. Do you take him? BPA
If he is Megaton good I would. Then draft OL and LBers the rest of the draft
That's exactly how we ended up with the guy cut yesterday.
Hmmmm...how do I feel about drafting him?...Hmmm...
That hardly settles the argument, even if true. Some positions on a team are more important than others. Love watching Barkley play, but still would've chosen Darnold. Finding a suitable successor to Eli over the next year or two would relieve a lot of angst.
Criticizing the pick isn't about the player. It's about roster construction and timing. That's been the argument those against the pick have been making since April.
It's also a shame there will never be an opportunity to get a young QB ever again.
Oh well.
Criticizing the pick isn't about the player. It's about roster construction and timing. That's been the argument those against the pick have been making since April.
But all of those yards on THIS team!
It's also a shame there will never be an opportunity to get a young QB ever again.
Oh well.
The shame is that Barkley plays a position where the average career lasts 2.7 years. Let's play out what, to me, seems like the most realistic scenario for his career here leading up to his contract negotiation...
- Year 1 looks like it's going to be a losing season.
- Year 2 may not be all that different from year one considering we expect Eli and Shurmur back, and we also have massive needs on OL, DL, LB, and secondary.
- Year 3 we may be starting with a new QB. At present there is no plan for this QB. Even if Gettleman puts together a strong roster by this point there is a possibility that it is undercut by QB problems (I also wouldn't rule out Eli still being the QB at this point).
- Year 4, assuming he is still in peak form at the most attritional position on the field, may be a sweet spot year for Barkley's career intersecting with a quality roster around him
- Year 5 may be impacted by a contract negotiation. If the Giants have been a losing team during the previous 4 years whomever the GM is may be asking the question, "If we can lose with him why can't we lose without him?"
That's a realistic scenario assuming no injuries and a successful effort by Gettleman to reinfuse the roster with talent. History tells us though that there will be injuries and situations that impede Barkley's ability to be maximized. Shit, we're seeing that already. The offense has been mostly poor with him on it.
Quote:
Of which any the the QB's have.
That hardly settles the argument, even if true. Some positions on a team are more important than others. Love watching Barkley play, but still would've chosen Darnold. Finding a suitable successor to Eli over the next year or two would relieve a lot of angst.
Rather would take the surefire HoFer than the 1/3 chance franchise QB Eli/Rivers/Roethlisburger level. Wouldn't be too thrilled with a franchise Matt Ryan or Alex Smith QB either.
Look forward to continue to build a team around him...
Eli plays one more season elsewhere, probably Jax or Denver, and the keys are turned over to Herbert who had a full season to learn from a HOF'er. Herbert's 2nd season mirrors Eli's where he plays well as Barkley is a finalist for the MVP award as the Giants finish 10-6. Will Hernandez makes his first pro bowl and is 2nd team all-pro.
BBI is a far more pleasant place while we enjoy years of Herbert, Barkley, Beckham, Shepard, and Engram.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
he is 7th in the NFL in yards from scrimmage....how much more production do you want? lol
we arent 1-4 because of him...this team has a bunch of holes and deficiencies
He still needs to learn when to go between the tackles and when to give up on that and bounce it outside.
He should wind up being our best RB in team history if we don't fuck it up.
Let's not put him in the hall of fame yet please.
Roster construction takes a little time and you always get several bites of the apple. Best to pick talent when you can get it even if you have to wait for the next bite before you finish the Apple. Otherwise, all you’ll eat is the worm.
Brady Brees and Rodgers are the best still.
Anyone who wants to claim there's a huge difference between those ranked 3-10 is spitting hairs. The rules in today's NFL make it so much easier to be a very good statistical QB. Nick Foles helped win the Super Bowl for God's sake.
I would have picked Mayfield if he was there but Barkley was hardly a. We choice. Great pick
yeah, not so much since my view is they are the elite level.
Said by a true football expert who really should be a GM for a top notch team. You can rave on all you want. The true test will be in the next three years when we all will see who is right and who is nothing but a big blow hard. You really should apply for a position with a team that can use your superior expertise.
Not trying to call out this poster as a lot of people keep pointing this out but that 2.7 years average for RBs is a terrible stat towards this situation. What really bothers me with that is it's an average which labels Barkley as average. Most of us are confident that Barkley will be well well above average. What's the average career length of AN ELITE RB? vs an average QB. As of now, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, etc have not shown anything more than average (which is normal as rookies). Hell, the average for a QB is 4.44 so are we really saying anything there?
There are 4 RBs in the HoF that started after 1990. Their career lengths average to 9.75 years. I'm not declaring Barkley a HoFer but this is far more likely to be his shelf life than 2.7 years. If any of the QBs turn out to be at least great (not just good) then you may have a mild argument.
How many offensive players are better right now? Not many. He makes plays others can’t. If he had help it would be record breaking already. Get him some blocking and keep developing the pass game with him and he’s an MVP in 2 years.
He was billed as a no risk HR. And that’s what we have.
The Giants look primed for a top 5 pick and will have another chance to choose one of the better QBs in a draft.
Bad teams should collect talent while they evolve. The Rams, Jags and Eagles are all contemporary examples of this working.
Barkley isn't going to turn into a pumpkin, he'll still be here if the Giants get a QB next April.
Extract the emotion -- the reality is Beckham, Engram and Barkley will all be under contract for years 1-3 of a QB selected next year. Barkley and Beckham will be under contract years 1-4.
This is a much better outlook than when Manning was selected and he won a ring in year 4.
Quote:
He's shown promise, but I think people are still extending their hope into reality. He's flashed, and obviously the potential is there, but so far the offensive ineptitude overall has impacted Barkley as well and the production doesn't match his cost so far.
Meanwhile, who knows how long Eli has left, or how long it will take to rebuild the OL. Could easily waste the last year or two of Eli's career, the first year or two of SB's career, and the first couple of years of OBJ's big contract on a luxury that didn't resolve the offensive issues.
he is 7th in the NFL in yards from scrimmage....how much more production do you want? lol
we arent 1-4 because of him...this team has a bunch of holes and deficiencies
How many touches does he have compared to other RBs? Forget the yards from scrimmage, which would be higher given the number of times he sees the ball. Look at YAC for receptions and YPC for rushes.
He might be great one day - but right now, he's decidedly good. And that's not worth the investment right now.
I don't mind people saying he has the potential, he's flashed, etc. But this sure fire HR, the returns we've already seen - where are they? What games have you guys been watching, because I've seen a 1-4 team with a RB who looks like he's got some talent but hasn't been able to do much. And we're talking about *production* now, not what he might do down the road.
Wow yourself - did I miss some production in there? Feel free to chime in.
How many offensive players are better right now? Not many. He makes plays others can’t. If he had help it would be record breaking already. Get him some blocking and keep developing the pass game with him and he’s an MVP in 2 years.
He was billed as a no risk HR. And that’s what we have.
At least 20.
Again - promising player, lots of potential - but his production to date doesn't match where some of you are putting him. It might someday, but not right now.
As many as Dan Marino.
Want more?
Sarcasm or stupidity?
I bet the reverse is true with QBs if I even cared to look it up. Most of them have nice long careers being journeyman backups.
This shelf life thing is a tired and fruitless argument. Teams are investing in RB again, so I guess every team hat does that somehow doesn’t know the average RB shelf life?
This is true - but it requires us to do a whole lot of losing this year, and for a QB to end up worthy of that pick.
We had a much bigger field this year, and decided there wasn't one worthy of 2nd overall. The odds aren't in our favor.
The strong odds are that the top 2 QBs on our depth chart in 2019 are Eli Manning and Kyle Lauletta. That's the route we chose when we picked Barkley.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
And I don't believe his being "the most talented prospect" was the only consideration. I've asked this question in the past and I'll ask it again:
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2017 season who would the Giants have drafted?
I'd bet my mortgage they'd have drafted Darnold.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
And there are people calling Barkley a Hall of Famer.
Barkley has "some talent" and Darnold is the Jets QB for 15 years.
Fucking madness.
I'm the one who said it's obvious he's got some talent. Now, when you can find the other half of what you're claiming I said, I'll own it. I didn't, so we might be here awhile.
In the meanwhile, stop making up shit to make a point.