When word broke Monday that the Giants were going to trade or release tackle Ereck Flowers, the trade option wasnt taken too seriously given the $1.69 million Flowers was still set to make this season under the terms of his rookie deal with the Giants.
That proved to be the right reaction as Flowers wound up on the waiver wire Tuesday. That contract would have moved to any team that claimed him off of waivers, so theres equally little surprise to hear multiple reports that Flowers cleared waivers on Wednesday.
At a lower price, there is reportedly interest in his services. Adam Schefter of ESPN reports multiple teams have reached out to Flowers and that he is set to visit the Jaguars on Thursday.
Link - (
New Window )
Or it could also mean that Jacksonville is desperate because their starting LT is out for the season and his replacement is also injured.
Quote:
It will just kill the Coughlin was wrongfully fired brigade who argue he had no say in personnel decisions and was an innocent victim of Reese & Ross negligence
Or it could also mean that Jacksonville is desperate because their starting LT is out for the season and his replacement is also injured.
Don't make Les do mental gymnastics. He has his narrative that he is hoping for reality to fit.
They're playing their 3rd string LT, people are so dumb lol
Quote:
It will just kill the Coughlin was wrongfully fired brigade who argue he had no say in personnel decisions and was an innocent victim of Reese & Ross negligence
Or it could also mean that Jacksonville is desperate because their starting LT is out for the season and his replacement is also injured.
He doesn't have to sign, they're already in spin mode.
NO WAIT, HE THOUGHT IT WAS THE OTHER ERECK FLOWERS!
Quote:
In comment 14118076 Les in TO said:
Quote:
It will just kill the Coughlin was wrongfully fired brigade who argue he had no say in personnel decisions and was an innocent victim of Reese & Ross negligence
Or it could also mean that Jacksonville is desperate because their starting LT is out for the season and his replacement is also injured.
there are other tackles available. If Coughlin felt he was so objectionable he wouldnt bring him in
Since you are up for the mental gymnastics, please list 5 LOT that are available. I'm glad that DG cut bait with Flowers. But despite my opinion, he actually has starting LOT experience, is healthy, and is available. If Jax signs him, don't mistake it as some endorsement by Coughlin for a former player. But rather taking a flyer on a player with experience that might serve in the short term as adequate until others are healthy and then as a back-up swing tackle.
That's the first I have ever heard of that. I think that's what BBI was spinning. However, at the time when Mac got hired, he got to hire some of his own position coaches.
That's the first I have ever heard of that. I think that's what BBI was spinning. However, at the time when Mac got hired, he got to hire some of his own position coaches.
Quote:
because Flowers supposedly didn't like Flaherty.
That's the first I have ever heard of that. I think that's what BBI was spinning. However, at the time when Mac got hired, he got to hire some of his own position coaches.
It was rumored then, and there was an article confirming this week in the press.
They all absolutely had a part in this epic failure of a team that we had last year. Some of the stench is still here, but its all being gutted now.
From three weeks ago...
The Giants appeased Ereck Flowers until they failed him - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 14118109 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
because Flowers supposedly didn't like Flaherty.
That's the first I have ever heard of that. I think that's what BBI was spinning. However, at the time when Mac got hired, he got to hire some of his own position coaches.
It was rumored then, and there was an article confirming this week in the press.
Please provide the click bait article please.
The reporters are feeding the Flower haters exactly what they want to hear.
Hang on - you claimed they fired Flaherty because Flowers didn't like him, and then you copied this:
'...could not get through' doesn't equal 'doesn't get along with'. It meant he couldn't get Flowers to do his job.
And guess what? Flaherty as the OL coach, as a guy with a lot of experience, would have had a lot of say in the players signed/drafted to the OL. So, unlike the 'conspiracy theory' that you guys have been repeatedly spewing, that poor ole TC/Flaherty were the victims of Reese and Ross' inability to get them talent, it's a hell of a lot more likely that they had plenty of input, and that when the results weren't positive they were held accountable first.
We also had several other offensive lineman that we failed to develop during his time here. Reese sure as hell was to blame for picking them, but there was a ton of talk here that we weren't developing any players at the same time.
Solari was universally like on the board. Everyone thought it was a great pickup and the line would surely turn around under him.
There are players that are labeled coach killers for a reason. Flowers is one of them.
Exercise in futility.
Exercise in futility.
So couldn't get through to someone means doesn't like or hated now?
Exercise in futility.
So couldn't get through to someone means doesn't like or hated now?
However, that article came out three weeks ago, three years after the fact.
Connect the dots. Whatever. You can twist it or turn it how you want. Flaherty was largely fired because of Flowers. However you want to word it, that's what happened.
Sure sounds like Coughlin was all in. Interesting that Flaherty was at his Miami work out.
BBI 2015 Draft Review - ( New Window )
Quote:
I said didn't like. Didn't like, hated, couldn't get through to, either way.... The result was the same.
Exercise in futility.
So couldn't get through to someone means doesn't like or hated now?
Personally, no, I dont think it does. Just saying.
You are assuming that facts will actually have an effect on a strongly held belief--which seems dubious, especially in regard to Coughlin
Quote:
Pat Flaherty, the offensive line coach for two Giants Super Bowl-winning teams, was fired mostly because he could not get through to Flowers, which was a disgrace and sent an awful message.
From three weeks ago...
The Giants appeased Ereck Flowers until they failed him - ( New Window )
Nothing in that article suggests Flowers did not like Flaherty. Even though, from most accounts, Ereck Flowers only seemed to like Bobby Hart.
I thought de-flowering always felt great???
Who knows the real story? As Diver mentioned above, and as an insider reported at the time, they were clashing.
Three years later "couldn't get through to" is a polite thing to say, but he was fired over it nonetheless.
had one of the absolute worst units in the league despite the GM giving him players drafted very highly.
But tosay that Flaherty wasfired because he didnt get along with Flowers is just hyperbole at its finest.
Who knows the real story? As Diver mentioned above, and as an insider reported at the time, they were clashing.
Three years later "couldn't get through to" is a polite thing to say, but he was fired over it nonetheless.
Lol, my man, that is an absolutely PREPOSTEROUS, summation of what probably happened. But youre entitled to think that.
I didn't see any of that - can you provide a link?
If not, I'm going to call Britt's 'conspiracy theory'. Seems to be a popular card to play these days.
Who knows the real story? As Diver mentioned above, and as an insider reported at the time, they were clashing.
Three years later "couldn't get through to" is a polite thing to say, but he was fired over it nonetheless.
Not getting through is simply saying he wasn't perceived to be getting his job done. With his track record with developing other players it was a fair assessment at the time.
20/20 hindsight Reese was terrible at picking late round o-line talent.
Still, Solari was welcomed with open arms when he was hired. BBI loved the hire.
However, that article came out three weeks ago, three years after the fact.
Connect the dots. Whatever. You can twist it or turn it how you want. Flaherty was largely fired because of Flowers. However you want to word it, that's what happened.
Well, now we're leaking that a scout had a 3rd round grade on him.
So which makes more sense - that Giants management unfairly punished Flaherty for not being able to get through to Flowers? Or that maybe Flaherty and Coughlin pushed for Flowers to be drafted going against some internal scouting, and he was held responsible for it when he couldn't make that selection work?
Which once again - doesn't make Reese or Ross or any of the scouts blameless - but it sure as hell makes a lot more sense than the 'poor TC and co' theory so many of you ascribe to.
Quote:
had openly exchanged words in practice. It sucks for Flaherty, but the organization had $14M invested in Flowers. They were going to try and get whatever coaches that could get through to Flowers. If that meant getting rid of Flaherty so be it.
I didn't see any of that - can you provide a link?
If not, I'm going to call Britt's 'conspiracy theory'. Seems to be a popular card to play these days.
I don't have a link. I do remember reading about it. If you aren't inclined to believe it then add it to other Conspiracy Theories.
Ask chop where he read it.
Doubt he will be able to block it.
The evidence that refutes the silly position you guys take is pretty simple:
- That the Giants have always been an end to end shop, draft-wise. We've heard them say it, we've seen it on TV (Finding Giants).
- That Flaherty was at the workouts, and had nothing but glowing, positive things to say about him after the draft, as did Coughlin.
- That Flowers fit the profile of a Coughlin preferred OL.
- That when it came time to start dismissing people, Flaherty was one of the first to go. This was billed as 'they clashed', despite nobody being able to produce any evidence (except an insider who nobody can remember, or produce a quote associated with or linked to)
- That the Giants had usually been faithful to a fault to position coaches, and that the OL had been struggling for years up until that point.
The assertion that Coughlin and Flaherty somehow had that group of OL players thrust on them is ridiculous when you look at the situation objectively.
Doubt he will be able to block it.
If he sticks there it will be because he was able to reach into himself and find the motivation and competitiveness to succeed. It's not going to be because the Giants failed him. He failed himself and only he can dig himself out of the hole.
Clashing with? You guys have nothing there, except maybe someone read a poster who said it on BBI once.
He was fired for not being able to get him to produce. Which, you could look at two ways - either he was unfairly punished for someone else's inability to get him a talented player, or he was held accountable for not being able to coach a guy he signed on to go and draft in the top 10. Which requires less of a leap of faith to get to?
No offense again dude, but you are the one making the statement for the reason for his firing being because of that. It's kinda up to you to support it with facts before jcn has to in order to refute them.
He was a Coughlin hire.
I mean thinking about it, was Flaherty even fired, or was he just not retained during a coaching change over.
Mac ran the ship, he had the right to hire anyone he wanted.
Solari came from Greenbay, maybe he wanted to change the offense to be more like Greenbay's, and he wanted to have someone who knew that blocking scheme a little better.
Quote:
reality, and the first way to do that is to completely ignore the facts and introduce some unverifiable rumors.
Ask chop where he read it.
Read what? I have an article I just read, but it in no way says that "Flaherty was fired because he didn't get along with Flowers."
This is incredible! I did a search with multiple headings and literally ZERO came up with anything thing that suggested that Flowers not getting along with Flaherty cost the coach his job. I said that that incident may have played a part in the decision based on Flowers going to be here for 3+ more years regardless, that the GM had invested fairly heavy draft resources over the previous 3-4 years into the OL and that yet another piss poor performance by them was the main reason PF got fired.
Quote:
which in hindsight turned out to be his best, do you have other reasons for why Flaherty might have been fired since many other coaches were retained?
He was a Coughlin hire.
I mean thinking about it, was Flaherty even fired, or was he just not retained during a coaching change over.
Mac ran the ship, he had the right to hire anyone he wanted.
Solari came from Greenbay, maybe he wanted to change the offense to be more like Greenbay's, and he wanted to have someone who knew that blocking scheme a little better.
This is the correct take.
Not retained - ( New Window )
It is a good adjustment, in every way, Flowers said of Solari. All of his techniques and different drills and everything he does. He is a great coach.
Giants Ereck Flowers sounds thrilled his old coach is gone 6/16/16 - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
Verified account
@DanGrazianoESPN
3h3 hours ago
More Dan Graziano Retweeted Adam Schefter
During Flowers' rookie season, he and then-Giants OL coach Pat Flaherty had to be separated during an argument at halftime of a game in Tampa. Flaherty is now the Jaguars' OL coach.
Geoff Schwartz
Verified account
@geoffschwartz
Follow Follow @geoffschwartz
More
Replying to @DanGrazianoESPN
FYI ... It was on the field during the game. Never seen anything like it.[/quote]
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
Clearly, at least one member of the Giants offensive line is happy about the change. It is no secret Ereck Flowers, as a rookie, did not always appreciate Flahertys style and motivational techniques.
It is a good adjustment, in every way, Flowers said of Solari. All of his techniques and different drills and everything he does. He is a great coach.
Giants Ereck Flowers sounds thrilled his old coach is gone 6/16/16 - ( New Window )
Again that quote just shows the he liked the new coach. Schwartz implies something, there are no direct quotes that say that they hated each other, or disliked. There is no solid facts.
Yes, from the reliable mouth of Geoff Schwartz.
So if they needed to be separated - why exactly is Coughlin bringing him down to Jax? Does Flaherty need a sparring partner?
In fact if anything, I think that the Jags going and getting Flowers moreso REFUTES the notion that Flaherty lost his job because of Flowers.
That's all.
Washington Post 10/10/16 - ( New Window )
DUDE!!!!!!! None of that says that he lost his job because of Flowers! Not even close!
Nobody is disputing that they didn't get into it. Fucking Antonio Brown was barking at coaches on the sideline and those coaches didn't lose their jobs! Give me a break.
So either the Giants were really good at keeping a secret, or there are some liberties being taken. And by the usual suspects, guys like Graziano and Schwartz who never actually break any stories.
Richburg didn't call him out by name, but it was supposed he was talking about Flowers not being a team guy. Schwartz had mentioned it before he had his current role.Pugh called him out this offseason after he left the team.
it is really bizarre to try and act like most of the chatter about Flowers was positive and the idea there was friction is a myth.
Quote:
He had a rocky relationship with former offensive line coach Pat Flaherty, who is now with the 49ers, Raanan continued. It created an uncomfortable and unhealthy work environment.
Washington Post 10/10/16 - ( New Window )
Raanan is universally panned around here and now hes a reliable source... I give up!
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
Quote:
He had a rocky relationship with former offensive line coach Pat Flaherty, who is now with the 49ers, Raanan continued. It created an uncomfortable and unhealthy work environment.
Washington Post 10/10/16 - ( New Window )
Raanan is universally panned around here and now hes a reliable source... I give up!
I have posted like six or seven things from six or seven different sources.
Take your pick.
Quote:
He had a rocky relationship with former offensive line coach Pat Flaherty, who is now with the 49ers, Raanan continued. It created an uncomfortable and unhealthy work environment.
Washington Post 10/10/16 - ( New Window )
That's slightly better, but again, that account from Ranaan is from 9 months after Flaherty was "NOT RETAINED."
Quote:
In comment 14118204 jcn56 said:
Quote:
reality, and the first way to do that is to completely ignore the facts and introduce some unverifiable rumors.
Ask chop where he read it.
Read what? I have an article I just read, but it in no way says that "Flaherty was fired because he didn't get along with Flowers."
This is incredible! I did a search with multiple headings and literally ZERO came up with anything thing that suggested that Flowers not getting along with Flaherty cost the coach his job. I said that that incident may have played a part in the decision based on Flowers going to be here for 3+ more years regardless, that the GM had invested fairly heavy draft resources over the previous 3-4 years into the OL and that yet another piss poor performance by them was the main reason PF got fired.
My statement about reports of Flaherty and Flowers exchanging words in practice. And then you agreed. I never made the correlation that the conflict/rocky relationship was a direct result of Flaherty being fired. The only statement I made is that the Giants were committed to Flowers to the tune of $14M. If they had to cycle through OL coaches to get through to him then so be it.
Richburg didn't call him out by name, but it was supposed he was talking about Flowers not being a team guy. Schwartz had mentioned it before he had his current role.Pugh called him out this offseason after he left the team.
it is really bizarre to try and act like most of the chatter about Flowers was positive and the idea there was friction is a myth.
I think what you are missing Fatman, is that some of us are arguing that Flaherty was NOT fired because he couldn't get along with Flowers as the primary reason. Nobody is defending Flowers' ability to mesh with team and coaches
Cam blew out his ACL at the start of the season
I don't think anyone, including Britt is claiming otherwise. Flowers definitely had a hand in why he was let go
Quote:
In comment 14118213 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14118204 jcn56 said:
Quote:
reality, and the first way to do that is to completely ignore the facts and introduce some unverifiable rumors.
Ask chop where he read it.
Read what? I have an article I just read, but it in no way says that "Flaherty was fired because he didn't get along with Flowers."
This is incredible! I did a search with multiple headings and literally ZERO came up with anything thing that suggested that Flowers not getting along with Flaherty cost the coach his job. I said that that incident may have played a part in the decision based on Flowers going to be here for 3+ more years regardless, that the GM had invested fairly heavy draft resources over the previous 3-4 years into the OL and that yet another piss poor performance by them was the main reason PF got fired.
My statement about reports of Flaherty and Flowers exchanging words in practice. And then you agreed. I never made the correlation that the conflict/rocky relationship was a direct result of Flaherty being fired. The only statement I made is that the Giants were committed to Flowers to the tune of $14M. If they had to cycle through OL coaches to get through to him then so be it.
Oh, I see. Yea I wasn't denying the words part. I think it contributed to but didn't make fr the primary impetus
The rumors at the time were that it played a part.
That is my bad.
BBI's Archived Flowers Discussion from 2016 - ( New Window )
That is my bad.
No worries man, you're good.
That is my bad.
All good brother.
I don't think anyone, including Britt is claiming otherwise. Flowers definitely had a hand in why he was let go
Uh...
Flaherty was fired by McAdoo...
Britt in VA : 6:15 pm : link : reply
because Flowers supposedly didn't like Flaherty.
Correct - Les nailed it.
Was there another thread where everybody was already in spin mode that I missed?
That narrative died today, no matter how much you want to pretend it didn't.
Link - ( New Window )
There is the proof we have been looking for.
So in effect, he gets a raise this year.....go figure....
Quote:
Pat Flaherty, the offensive line coach for two Giants Super Bowl-winning teams, was fired mostly because he could not get through to Flowers, which was a disgrace and sent an awful message.
From three weeks ago...
The Giants appeased Ereck Flowers until they failed him - ( New Window )
And Gilbride was fired because he couldn't "get through" to Reuben Randal and Jerrel Jernigan, two more losers.
Right, because the rest of our roster was in such good shape, other than Flowers.
Mike from SI : 3:36 am : link : reply
but people are on here stanning for Ereck Flowers? Wtf is going on? It was a not-so-well-kept secret that the rest of the OL didn't like him
Years of losing have made some posters just go nuts with shitting on the team over every move.
You can turn over half a roster, jettison a bunch of guys who were roundly criticized for playing like crap and having poor attitudes, bring in new pieces of the Front Office and coaching staff and you'll have people acting like keeping Eli and hiring Gettleman is the "Mara way" of keeping things status quo.
To the point that some of these fuckers are acting like Flowers is a pawn or fall guy.
Quote:
I avoided this thread today for some reason
Mike from SI : 3:36 am : link : reply
but people are on here stanning for Ereck Flowers? Wtf is going on? It was a not-so-well-kept secret that the rest of the OL didn't like him
Years of losing have made some posters just go nuts with shitting on the team over every move.
You can turn over half a roster, jettison a bunch of guys who were roundly criticized for playing like crap and having poor attitudes, bring in new pieces of the Front Office and coaching staff and you'll have people acting like keeping Eli and hiring Gettleman is the "Mara way" of keeping things status quo.
To the point that some of these fuckers are acting like Flowers is a pawn or fall guy.
Get this straight, buster! The ONLY reason Shurmur was hired because he promised Mara he would keep Eli and not draft a first round QB!
Most of their talent was there before Coughlin was hired.
a)what the hell does stanning mean?
b)This isn't a comment on Flowers so much as it is the notion, heavily pushed by some, that poor St. Tommy had Flowers, a player he didn't want, foisted on him by Emmanuel Goldstein Reese. Which is pretty well blown up by Coughlin's Jaguars bringing in Flowers for a look.
He's actually a pretty bad player - that nobody is debating, and nobody is standing up for him.
The thread turned because someone that for years has been used to exonerate TC/Flaherty, someone who was entirely the responsibility of Reese and Ross, is now headed down to Jax to try out. The main point is people still don't get that the whole thing needed to be torn down, that neither the coaching nor the FO were getting the job done anymore and everyone needed to go.
That should have included an overhaul of the scouting department and someone with a new perspective coming in. Instead, we got back a guy who had been here for a very long time, and most of our scouts were retained. To paraphrase Parcells, we have the same people picking the groceries, but we're expecting better meals.
Meanwhile, BBI has devolved into two camps - people who are fed up with all the losing, and people who snicker at them. And the trolls, but those guys were always here. Not fun times, but then again, when you're 1-4 and not looking good, that's how it is.
It was a failure to a. address the o line concerns early enough, and b. not adequately rebuilding it going on five years.
I think he's visiting today.
Quote:
or let him walk?
I think he's visiting today.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.....
It was a failure to a. address the o line concerns early enough, and b. not adequately rebuilding it going on five years.
And here we are, you continue to believe that TC and Flaherty, who deserve all the credit for when the line was performing well during the early years of the SB run, somehow deserve none of the blame for when it all went downhill.
Because you figure TC/Flaherty didn't have any input as to whether they should retain Diehl/Snee, whether they should have signed Baas, or drafted Flowers.
But here we are, with the guy that supposedly had a fight with Flaherty in his rookie season (and was the reason Flaherty was fired for 'not being able to get through to him'), is bringing him in for a tryout today.
Of course, the St. Coughlin crowd will perpetuate the narrative thst all good things that happened in the past 12 years were Coughlins doing and all bad things were Reeses doing.
Sorry to bust your narrative but Coughlin was both a part of our success and a part of the failure. His in-game coaching flat sucked the last two years and cost us 3-4 wins and a possible playoff berth the last year, and YES, he did have a hand in the bad personnel decisions.
Quote:
that people said was foisted on him, it was a sieve of a line.
It was a failure to a. address the o line concerns early enough, and b. not adequately rebuilding it going on five years.
And here we are, you continue to believe that TC and Flaherty, who deserve all the credit for when the line was performing well during the early years of the SB run, somehow deserve none of the blame for when it all went downhill.
Because you figure TC/Flaherty didn't have any input as to whether they should retain Diehl/Snee, whether they should have signed Baas, or drafted Flowers.
But here we are, with the guy that supposedly had a fight with Flaherty in his rookie season (and was the reason Flaherty was fired for 'not being able to get through to him'), is bringing him in for a tryout today.
And here we are again, too.... Where you imply a lot of thing with basically no evidence, just like everything else on this thread, and then I come back with quotes from Kevin Gilbride that he went to Reese as early as 2009 with concerns over the decaying O-line only to have them dismissed...
This isnt just an overnight thing. People are acting like this just happened. This has been a buildup that needed to be addressed for a while.
Link - ( New Window )
Whether you choose to believe it or not, I have provided quote after quote after quote from people that were there, that lived it, that are qualified to have an educated opinion on that matter....
All dismissed. Even funnier, I get accused of bending "facts".
Where are your "facts"?
IOW, same old story for Tom Coughlin - all of the credit for the Giants' successes, none of the blame for their failures.
Fired Gilbride, fired Coughlin, fired Flaherty, let Jerry Reese stay on and pick his own coach and gave him 200 million to spend on the roster...
It all was a complete failure.
and McAdoo and Reese are... where?
Fired Gilbride, fired Coughlin, fired Flaherty, let Jerry Reese stay on and pick his own coach and gave him 200 million to spend on the roster...
It all was a complete failure.
Of course it was - the results are obvious.
Did they really have another way to go, though? Either way - what had been working wasn't anymore, and it needed to change.
and McAdoo and Reese are... where?
Where was Coughlin for the season after he was fired? Not Jacksonville. You're going to need to wait a bit before you can use that one.
That is not a puff quote.
Ive disagreed OF LATE with his POVs, but hes always a must read for me. Most of this board should be as bad as he is.
Quote:
So many saying that this ruins Coughlins credibility. Right, just one visit from Flowers indicates that Coughlin does not have an eye for talent and in fact the Jaguars are not a supremely talented team. The fact they almost went to the Super Bowl last year was actually just a mirage.
Most of their talent was there before Coughlin was hired.
Nothing to see here. Flowers, a former multi-year starter and #9 pick in the draft being brought in for due diligence by a team down to its 3rd string LT. Same being done by other teams who are bringing Flowers in. They signed Nassib for a week too. Of course, won't prevent the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight here from proposing a narrative attempting to justify the foolishness of their failed prescriptions for team improvement.
Just saying.
and McAdoo and Reese are... where?
Reese us rich AF. He was a scout for us for like 20 years before he became the GM.
He has 2 rings, and really has no need to be a GM ever again.
The time commitment involved in being a GM is taxing on the family conditions as well.
I'm pretty sure he even said he would be taking a year off after he was canned.
Not everyone is Tom Coughlin and wants to work to the day they die.
Just saying.
I defended him up until Coughlin was fired. I thought Reese should have been let go when Coughlin was fired but the Giants made a huge mistake in sticking with him.
and McAdoo and Reese are... where?
Uhhh Coughlin was looking for a HC job and there were no takers. Nobody was willing to hire him as a coach after we canned him. What does that say about him?
And the Jax roster was stacked when he got there. They continued to add good pieces when he joined but this wasnt a roster rebuild by Coughlin.. or should I say, St. Coughlin.