I'm extremely hopeful the season turns around starting Thursday. Let's beat the Eagles - please.
That said while it is to early to seriously talk draft there is one point I wanted to mention. If the Giants come away, and only if they come away with the #1 pick I would run to the podium for Nick Bosa.
Bosa is arguably better then his brother - even though Joey is bigger and has more pure power. Dominant pass rushers change franchises and our pass rush has not been dominant for a long time. Strahan, Tuck and Osi are long gone. If you are like me you still glowingly talk about LT.
The '20 Qb class is set to be VERY good with Tua in that group as well as a few other qbs.
This team would be a lot better with a pass rush and a continued investment in OL. Any fan of those 80's Giants simply loves pass rush. It is so much more fun to watch the game when you have one. Vernon's absence and the impact on the pass rush has been pronounced and Bosa would hopefully immediately be contending for the best pass rusher in the division.
Let's not suck. But if we do... Suck for Bosa.
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and I suspect one will "fit" and be "BPA" no matter what.
Have you heard anything about NYG’s scouting presence for the early QB prospects?
No, way too early. Didn't hear a peep about QBs last year until March.
We'll likely be 1-5 tonight, I don't see this team winning half their games down the stretch, and don't really want them to. 6 wins this season doesn't help them get more talented.
Eagles are beatable. A mess weather wise tonight makes it anyones game. Atlanta is not very good. Washington isnt anything special. It wouldnt shock me if we got 2 wins in the next 3.
Plus with Tennseee, Indy, TB, Dallas at home, SF - there are wins on the schedule IMO.
True Sophomore. Have to be 3 years removed from HS.
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We'll likely be 1-5 tonight, I don't see this team winning half their games down the stretch, and don't really want them to. 6 wins this season doesn't help them get more talented.
Eagles are beatable. A mess weather wise tonight makes it anyones game. Atlanta is not very good. Washington isnt anything special. It wouldnt shock me if we got 2 wins in the next 3.
Plus with Tennseee, Indy, TB, Dallas at home, SF - there are wins on the schedule IMO.
Tennessee, Indy, Tampa, Dallas...are looking at the Giants on their schedule as a W. Also, all of those teams are better teams than the Giants.
Tennessee, Indy, Tampa, Dallas...are looking at the Giants on their schedule as a W. Also, all of those teams are better teams than the Giants.
Well sure they can lose them as well. But those teams being "better" than the Giants is speculative. None of them are that good and have major problems as well. Shit, TB looked like a high school team against Chicago. Indy has looked awful in areas. And Tennessee has ZERO offense.
There is no way Edwards falls to round 2. He will go top 20 at worst possibly top 10.
As for QB, that depends on how Eli and the offense finish the year. And what kind of ceiling they put on Lauletta's upside (obviously they like him, but do they love him?).
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In comment 14118455 allstarjim said:
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Down the road with QB. Franchise QBs don't grow on trees, and they are the most important position. Shurmur and Gettleman can't wait another 3 years after this one for a QB from 2020 to start winning, and that's if they are lucky.
The same logic holds true for a franchise left tackle and Jonah Williams is the best tackle to come out in years. He's way closer to Smith of Dallas or Joe Thomas or others in that caliber.
Just ask Miami how they feel about picking Jake Long over Matt Ryan.
Seeing that Matty ice has delivered nothing to Atlanta I'd say it's a wash. But the flipside to your example, how many times have we seen teams draft the franchise QB throw him behind a substandard line and watch him get killed? We drafted a great running back who oftentimes can't take more than two steps before a defender is on him.
We can agree to disagree but I say fix the oline before you get the QB.
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In comment 14118455 allstarjim said:
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Not sure if you heard, but Nate Solder is our LT and will continue to be for a long time, but even if we did not have Solder, this regime would need to draft Eli's replacement.
Nate Solder is signed for two more years after this and while he's been an upgrade over what he had :( I'd argue he's in his decline years. Go look at highlights of Williams, almost every play he's pushing the defender backwards not the other way around. And his hip and hand placement is elite.
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In comment 14118492 Giantsfan79 said:
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In comment 14118455 allstarjim said:
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Down the road with QB. Franchise QBs don't grow on trees, and they are the most important position. Shurmur and Gettleman can't wait another 3 years after this one for a QB from 2020 to start winning, and that's if they are lucky.
The same logic holds true for a franchise left tackle and Jonah Williams is the best tackle to come out in years. He's way closer to Smith of Dallas or Joe Thomas or others in that caliber.
Just ask Miami how they feel about picking Jake Long over Matt Ryan.
Seeing that Matty ice has delivered nothing to Atlanta I'd say it's a wash. But the flipside to your example, how many times have we seen teams draft the franchise QB throw him behind a substandard line and watch him get killed? We drafted a great running back who oftentimes can't take more than two steps before a defender is on him.
We can agree to disagree but I say fix the oline before you get the QB.
People said we did the same thing when drafted Eli over Gallery.
We fixed the line the next year, and won a couple of Super Bowls.
How did that one work out?
People said we did the same thing when drafted Eli over Gallery.
We fixed the line the next year, and won a couple of Super Bowls.
How did that one work out?
And I contend that if you go watch Williams play his technique is in another league compared to players like Gallery or Jake Long. It just goes to show that when you can get an actual franchise left tackle who can actually play you jump at the change because a lot of college lineman don't have great technique.
Let's learn from the Houston Texans mistakes and not kill our franchise QB as his learning how to play.
Plus go read reviews of the upcoming draft - this year is the one to get a tackle, next year is the one to get a QB.
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In comment 14118492 Giantsfan79 said:
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In comment 14118455 allstarjim said:
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Down the road with QB. Franchise QBs don't grow on trees, and they are the most important position. Shurmur and Gettleman can't wait another 3 years after this one for a QB from 2020 to start winning, and that's if they are lucky.
The same logic holds true for a franchise left tackle and Jonah Williams is the best tackle to come out in years. He's way closer to Smith of Dallas or Joe Thomas or others in that caliber.
Just ask Miami how they feel about picking Jake Long over Matt Ryan.
Seeing that Matty ice has delivered nothing to Atlanta I'd say it's a wash. But the flipside to your example, how many times have we seen teams draft the franchise QB throw him behind a substandard line and watch him get killed? We drafted a great running back who oftentimes can't take more than two steps before a defender is on him.
We can agree to disagree but I say fix the oline before you get the QB.
That's crazy, he's won an MVP and took the team to the Super Bowl, which, in the absence of excruciatingly bad clock/game management by the head coach, they would have won and he's a former All-Pro. He's had the Falcons in the playoffs 6 times in 11 seasons. And yes, I know he hasn't won the hardware (again, he should've), and Eli has, but you can't say it's a wash...he's a franchise QB that gives his team a chance to win and go deep into the playoffs every year, in a pretty tough division, btw.
There are multiple problems with your "fix the o-line first" argument.
1. The OL already has been "fixed". It's arguable that another season of working together might be all this OL needs to gel.
2. Assuming the above is incorrect, this team may only need a RT and a RG. There is nothing preventing a team from drafting a starting, quality RT in the 2nd round in almost any draft year. And decent RG's in free agency are attainable, and we already have one and he's not going anywhere. You can make the argument a Center is still needed, but again, you almost never take a OC in the first round anyway.
3. No matter what you do with the OL, one injury on the line can totally defeat the point of waiting to draft a QB. The chances of having an injury-free line in any season are not great, as we've already seen this year.
4. Eli is under contract for 2019. You have two drafts and two free agency periods to supplement a 2019 1st round QB with OL before he is expected to start.
5. If you are in position (high first round pick) in 2019 with little competition to draft a franchise QB, and you pass on that for an OL, there is no guarantee you will again be in position in 2020, and more importantly, there is a high degree of probability that there will substantially more competition for franchise QBs in the 2020 draft than there will be in 2019.
6. If you do not draft a QB in 2019, you have either a rookie QB needing to start immediately or Kyle Lauletta will need to play immediately, unless you spend more free agency dollars or extend Eli on the position, and both of those options are mistakes. It makes much more sense to have a redshirt year for a rookie QB than to immediately throw him right in the fire.
7. Relating back to point 3, you are ALWAYS building your line, just like you are ALWAYS building your defense. There is no "fix the OL and you're done." You are never done. It's a job with no end. You have to get your franchise QB when the opportunity presents itself, UNLESS you already have one and there is a player that is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the available QBs when you draft as was the case with Saquon Barkley. The reason why I was a proponent for drafting Saquon was that Eli still had 2 more years under contract and he was a once in every 20-25 year prospect. In 2019, Eli will have one year left, so drafting his replacement becomes a greater priority and imperative than it was in this past draft.
In every sense, the strategy to pass on a QB at the top of the draft in 2019 is wrong. The only way you should pass on a QB in this next draft is if you do not believe that the QBs available are worthy of the selection and you do not believe they are championship-caliber NFL franchise QBs.
Loquacious as always
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People said we did the same thing when drafted Eli over Gallery.
We fixed the line the next year, and won a couple of Super Bowls.
How did that one work out?
And I contend that if you go watch Williams play his technique is in another league compared to players like Gallery or Jake Long. It just goes to show that when you can get an actual franchise left tackle who can actually play you jump at the change because a lot of college lineman don't have great technique.
Let's learn from the Houston Texans mistakes and not kill our franchise QB as his learning how to play.
Plus go read reviews of the upcoming draft - this year is the one to get a tackle, next year is the one to get a QB.
The Texans had used significant resources on OL right before the drafted Carr. They had an OL set up for Carr, and that OL was decimated by significant injury. Remember, they took Tony Boselli in the expansion draft in 2002 (the inaugural season for the Texans and David Carr's rookie year). Boselli got hurt and never played again. What happened to Carr was the exception, and that OL was a train wreck.
And by the way Solder is signed to 3 more seasons after this one, not two.
1. The OL already has been "fixed". It's arguable that another season of working together might be all this OL needs to gel.
We fundamentally see things differently if you think the oline has been fixed.
2. Assuming the above is incorrect, this team may only need a RT and a RG. There is nothing preventing a team from drafting a starting, quality RT in the 2nd round in almost any draft year. And decent RG's in free agency are attainable, and we already have one and he's not going anywhere. You can make the argument a Center is still needed, but again, you almost never take a OC in the first round anyway.
Yeah, draft Williams let him play right tackle to break in, and then transition him over to left tackle in two years when Soldiers contract expires. And bonus, knocking on wood as a write this, but should Soldier pull his back or knee as can happen to lineman over 30, we'd have a replacement on the roster.
3. No matter what you do with the OL, one injury on the line can totally defeat the point of waiting to draft a QB. The chances of having an injury-free line in any season are not great, as we've already seen this year.
Agreed which is why we need better/more lineman than we have now.
4. Eli is under contract for 2019. You have two drafts and two free agency periods to supplement a 2019 1st round QB with OL before he is expected to start.
So your saying it's going to be a while before our QB would play. Why not get some immediate return by drafting someone who would contribute immediately next year?
5. If you are in position (high first round pick) in 2019 with little competition to draft a franchise QB, and you pass on that for an OL, there is no guarantee you will again be in position in 2020, and more importantly, there is a high degree of probability that there will substantially more competition for franchise QBs in the 2020 draft than there will be in 2019.
No guarantee you won't either. Lots of folks said it would be a 3 year rebuild for the Giants. Concede there will be will more competition for QBs in 2020, but that just proves the 2020 class is far superior to the 2019 class. Why draft a second rate guy in 2019 just because he's the best available that year?
6. If you do not draft a QB in 2019, you have either a rookie QB needing to start immediately or Kyle Lauletta will need to play immediately, unless you spend more free agency dollars or extend Eli on the position, and both of those options are mistakes. It makes much more sense to have a redshirt year for a rookie QB than to immediately throw him right in the fire.
See above, QBs in this years class aren't that good. But yeah let's force the pick and set the franchise back 5 years.
7. Relating back to point 3, you are ALWAYS building your line, just like you are ALWAYS building your defense. There is no "fix the OL and you're done." You are never done. It's a job with no end. You have to get your franchise QB when the opportunity presents itself, UNLESS you already have one and there is a player that is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the available QBs when you draft as was the case with Saquon Barkley. The reason why I was a proponent for drafting Saquon was that Eli still had 2 more years under contract and he was a once in every 20-25 year prospect. In 2019, Eli will have one year left, so drafting his replacement becomes a greater priority and imperative than it was in this past draft.
I think the Giants have conditioned you to believe this over the last few years, and when you are constantly plugging journeyman and undrafted free agents into your system it's true. But drafting a few building block lineman can change that quickly.
Williams makes Barkley better in 2019.
Nothing stops the Giants from drafting a QB in 2020 and letting Lauletta serve as the bridge. Unless you have no faith in Lauletta.
In every sense, the strategy to pass on a QB at the top of the draft in 2019 is wrong. The only way you should pass on a QB in this next draft is if you do not believe that the QBs available are worthy of the selection and you do not believe they are championship-caliber NFL franchise QBs.
100% I don't think the QBs in this years draft are championship-caliber NFL franchise QBs, and/or only have 3 or 4 years of transition for their college offenses which I don't want to wait for.
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Loquacious as always
Thank you.
That's nearly the norm. Mayfield didn't take snaps under center either. The truth is the Giants are a perfect landing spot for Herbert if Eli is around. He gets a full season to learn from Eli and get comfortable taking snaps under center. If Eli is struggling they could make the switch to Herbert midseason if he is ready similar to Eli in 2004.
This was the same comment that was made last year except it was Webb not Lauletta. I like Lauletta a lot but I have serious doubts if he has the arm strength to compete in NY during the windy winter weather.
You can't pass on a QB because you hope that a 4th round pick will work out. The best case scenario is that Lauletta and the 1st round pick work out then the Giants would have a great inexpensive backup for a couple of seasons that they could flip for picks before the end of his rookie contract ala Garappolo. There is no guarantee that our next franchise QB will never miss a game like Eli so having a solid backup is very important.
This has nothing to do with Herbert. I'm not even sold that he's the #1 guy in the class anyway. But you can't even get the fact that Solder is on a 4 year deal...he has 3 more years after this one, NOT TWO like you have said again EVEN after me correcting you.
Once you can acknowledge a simple fact like that then I can further elaborate on why your arguments for this are terrible.
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just watched his most recent highlight package [slow work day]. Every snap dude is in the shotgun, it's likely he hasn't taken a snap under center since high school. But yeah let's let him figure it out in the NFL because he's the best QB 2019 has to offer.
This has nothing to do with Herbert. I'm not even sold that he's the #1 guy in the class anyway. But you can't even get the fact that Solder is on a 4 year deal...he has 3 more years after this one, NOT TWO like you have said again EVEN after me correcting you.
Once you can acknowledge a simple fact like that then I can further elaborate on why your arguments for this are terrible.
I concede the Giants signed Soldier to a 4 year contract not a 3 year one like I'd thought. Looking forward to continuing this debate if you are.
I have discussed both Grier and Lock several times. I am not a fan of Lock but Grier is intriguing but I question if he truly has franchise QB upside.
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just watched his most recent highlight package [slow work day]. Every snap dude is in the shotgun, it's likely he hasn't taken a snap under center since high school. But yeah let's let him figure it out in the NFL because he's the best QB 2019 has to offer.
This has nothing to do with Herbert. I'm not even sold that he's the #1 guy in the class anyway. But you can't even get the fact that Solder is on a 4 year deal...he has 3 more years after this one, NOT TWO like you have said again EVEN after me correcting you.
Once you can acknowledge a simple fact like that then I can further elaborate on why your arguments for this are terrible.
Jim, the way the contract was structured allows the Giants to cut Solder after years two and three.
That is not true. I am not in favor or nor am I not in favor of drafting Herbert. Why? Because I am not a complete dumbass who thinks I can classify the 2019 QB class in October of 2018 as a bad class or a good class. There is a group of QBs that will be considered a Herbert may not even be one of them because he may elect to stay in school. Anyone who says anything regarding the draft-worthiness of the potential 2019 class of QBs in October of 2018 doesn't know wtf they are talking about.
Any draft analyst or "expert" worth anything knows there is too much football left to be played, there are still the "all-star" games to be played (i.e. the Senior Bowl), there is the combine testing and pro days and all the evaluation in between.
You might have an idea or an opinion of how you see things right now, but before all of that takes place, for you to say the 2019 class isn't good, and that there are no franchise, championship-caliber NFL QBs in the class in October of 2018, means you clearly don't have a clue as to what you are talking about and are throwing shit against the wall.
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In comment 14118992 Giantsfan79 said:
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just watched his most recent highlight package [slow work day]. Every snap dude is in the shotgun, it's likely he hasn't taken a snap under center since high school. But yeah let's let him figure it out in the NFL because he's the best QB 2019 has to offer.
This has nothing to do with Herbert. I'm not even sold that he's the #1 guy in the class anyway. But you can't even get the fact that Solder is on a 4 year deal...he has 3 more years after this one, NOT TWO like you have said again EVEN after me correcting you.
Once you can acknowledge a simple fact like that then I can further elaborate on why your arguments for this are terrible.
Jim, the way the contract was structured allows the Giants to cut Solder after years two and three.
That doesn't mean they will.
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if you aren't for Herbert, because he's the only name this board seems to talk about, who's the QB you want in the 2019 draft?
That is not true. I am not in favor or nor am I not in favor of drafting Herbert. Why? Because I am not a complete dumbass who thinks I can classify the 2019 QB class in October of 2018 as a bad class or a good class. There is a group of QBs that will be considered a Herbert may not even be one of them because he may elect to stay in school. Anyone who says anything regarding the draft-worthiness of the potential 2019 class of QBs in October of 2018 doesn't know wtf they are talking about.
Any draft analyst or "expert" worth anything knows there is too much football left to be played, there are still the "all-star" games to be played (i.e. the Senior Bowl), there is the combine testing and pro days and all the evaluation in between.
You might have an idea or an opinion of how you see things right now, but before all of that takes place, for you to say the 2019 class isn't good, and that there are no franchise, championship-caliber NFL QBs in the class in October of 2018, means you clearly don't have a clue as to what you are talking about and are throwing shit against the wall.
hey, I can agree with you most "experts" are self proclaimed, but there are plenty of articles on the internet from college football analysts who say this is an offensive tackle draft and next year is a QB draft.
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if you aren't for Herbert, because he's the only name this board seems to talk about, who's the QB you want in the 2019 draft?
That is not true. I am not in favor or nor am I not in favor of drafting Herbert. Why? Because I am not a complete dumbass who thinks I can classify the 2019 QB class in October of 2018 as a bad class or a good class. There is a group of QBs that will be considered a Herbert may not even be one of them because he may elect to stay in school. Anyone who says anything regarding the draft-worthiness of the potential 2019 class of QBs in October of 2018 doesn't know wtf they are talking about.
Any draft analyst or "expert" worth anything knows there is too much football left to be played, there are still the "all-star" games to be played (i.e. the Senior Bowl), there is the combine testing and pro days and all the evaluation in between.
You might have an idea or an opinion of how you see things right now, but before all of that takes place, for you to say the 2019 class isn't good, and that there are no franchise, championship-caliber NFL QBs in the class in October of 2018, means you clearly don't have a clue as to what you are talking about and are throwing shit against the wall.
Most said the 2017 draft was a terrible QB draft. Mahomes is playing at an MVP level. I believe the Goff and Wentz draft was also called weak. The truth is that it's unwise to declare a QB draft weak especially this early. Few had Mayfield as a 1st round pick let alone the 1st overall pick before last season.
Didn't want to jump the gun but I was planning to drop the Giants will likely cut Soldier in year 4 to save the cap money after your reply, but if we're focusing on dropped arguments you didn't answer on of mine. Nate Soldier is 30 right now can we just assume he'll be able to continue to play every snap for the next 3 years? Age plus nagging injuries makes me wary of saying yes. And while I won't lose sleep of the Giants cutting Flowers, should our left tackle go down were pretty fucked because we've got no one on the roster that has NFL experience there. I argue the imperative to get a left tackle to groom is an immediate need of critical importance.
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In comment 14119050 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14118992 Giantsfan79 said:
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just watched his most recent highlight package [slow work day]. Every snap dude is in the shotgun, it's likely he hasn't taken a snap under center since high school. But yeah let's let him figure it out in the NFL because he's the best QB 2019 has to offer.
This has nothing to do with Herbert. I'm not even sold that he's the #1 guy in the class anyway. But you can't even get the fact that Solder is on a 4 year deal...he has 3 more years after this one, NOT TWO like you have said again EVEN after me correcting you.
Once you can acknowledge a simple fact like that then I can further elaborate on why your arguments for this are terrible.
Jim, the way the contract was structured allows the Giants to cut Solder after years two and three.
That doesn't mean they will.
No it doesn't but if his play deteriorates to the point where he isn't a viable starting OT they will cut him. Gettleman has proven that he has no issue releasing veterans if they aren't playing up to their contracts.
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In comment 14119077 Giantsfan79 said:
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if you aren't for Herbert, because he's the only name this board seems to talk about, who's the QB you want in the 2019 draft?
That is not true. I am not in favor or nor am I not in favor of drafting Herbert. Why? Because I am not a complete dumbass who thinks I can classify the 2019 QB class in October of 2018 as a bad class or a good class. There is a group of QBs that will be considered a Herbert may not even be one of them because he may elect to stay in school. Anyone who says anything regarding the draft-worthiness of the potential 2019 class of QBs in October of 2018 doesn't know wtf they are talking about.
Any draft analyst or "expert" worth anything knows there is too much football left to be played, there are still the "all-star" games to be played (i.e. the Senior Bowl), there is the combine testing and pro days and all the evaluation in between.
You might have an idea or an opinion of how you see things right now, but before all of that takes place, for you to say the 2019 class isn't good, and that there are no franchise, championship-caliber NFL QBs in the class in October of 2018, means you clearly don't have a clue as to what you are talking about and are throwing shit against the wall.
hey, I can agree with you most "experts" are self proclaimed, but there are plenty of articles on the internet from college football analysts who say this is an offensive tackle draft and next year is a QB draft.
You understand that internet articles are there to get clicks, right? Do you think I care about what Bleacher Report's writers think? But anyway...please post them.
One thing I have a problem with and it's not just what you are saying but what others say also is in talking about the "QB class" or the "Offensive Line class". Why do I care about how good the class is if I'm Dave Gettleman? I'm only drafting one QB. So I don't give a rip how good QBs two through twenty are. I just need to get that one guy. It is very likely the Giants will be well-positioned in 2019 to get the guy of their choice. And the reason for that is the Giants are not a good football team, and the other bad football teams very recently invested in franchise QBs. The competition for the first pick in the draft will be between the Giants, the Bills, the Cardinals, the 49ers, and MAYBE the Raiders. Out of those teams, only the Raiders MIGHT cut Carr or just use their first round pick on a QB despite having him in place, and it would be tremendously cost-prohibitive to do so, but it's possible.
The only teams that are likely to pursue a QB in the 2019 are all good enough teams that will finish with more wins than the Giants and would likely have to pay a HEAVY cost to move ahead of them. And that's only if the Giants aren't picking #1, which they have a good chance to do.
I hear this talk about the Giants finishing with 6 wins. Well, there is no teams without at least 1 win, and we are more than a quarter through the season, and the Giants have just one. I do not believe they will beat the Eagles tonight so they are staring 1-5 in the face before having to travel to Atlanta in a tough building to win in. Finishing with 3 wins or fewer this season is a very real possibility. If they finish with 3 wins or fewer, they will very likely have the top overall pick, because I do not believe any of the other 31 teams are bad enough to go 2-14 or worse. The Giants could actually have the top overall pick at 4-12.
Again, I don't want to hear about draft class. The Giants are only going after 1 of those guys and they have the best chance at getting their preferred guy of anyone.
Not using your 1st round pick on an OL does not preclude you from improving the OL, and in fact, since you believe this OL class is so good, then they should be able to wait until the 2nd round and get a really good OL to help this team.
Btw I've been following the NFL for more than 30 years. I know who hard it is to maintain OL continuity. It's damn near impossible. Even if you hit the lottery and get your 5 guys, like Dallas did, you have just two years before you are already needing to plug holes again, and that's just if you are lucky. It's the nature of the NFL in this free agency era. You are ALWAYS building the OL. If you don't have that mentality, you will be back where you started before you can blink.
Further, any QB the Giants draft must be able to evade the pass rush in the modern NFL. That's not to say that the OL is unimportant, but the chances are good that no matter who you are, you are going to play under duress for the majority of your career. There are few clean pockets in the NFL anymore.
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That doesn't mean they will.
Didn't want to jump the gun but I was planning to drop the Giants will likely cut Soldier in year 4 to save the cap money after your reply, but if we're focusing on dropped arguments you didn't answer on of mine. Nate Soldier is 30 right now can we just assume he'll be able to continue to play every snap for the next 3 years? Age plus nagging injuries makes me wary of saying yes. And while I won't lose sleep of the Giants cutting Flowers, should our left tackle go down were pretty fucked because we've got no one on the roster that has NFL experience there. I argue the imperative to get a left tackle to groom is an immediate need of critical importance.
Solder (not Soldier), is a good LT. And just like you need to be prepared to replace him BEFORE his contract runs out, you also need to be prepared to replace your franchise QB.
That being said, your idea is to zero in on a LT in the first round of the 2019 draft. I guarantee you there will be good LTs in the 2020 draft also. And the 2021 draft. There is no IMMEDIATE need to replace Solder. They will need to get players for that OL in the draft and/or free agency, but that doesn't mean it has to happen in the first round of the 2019 draft. Btw, Chad Wheeler has just as good a chance as anyone to be the LT of the future when Solder retires. Players develop, and Wheeler has steadily improved since he was drafted.
Have you thought about Shurmur's window with this 2020 draft a QB plan? Have you thought about OBJ's and Barkley's? This team is built to win now. They are a good QB and a little help on defense away. It behooves them to get that franchise QB in the building as soon as possible, because it's going to be hard to keep this offensive talent together.
That is not true. I am not in favor or nor am I not in favor of drafting Herbert. Why? Because I am not a complete dumbass who thinks I can classify the 2019 QB class in October of 2018 as a bad class or a good class. There is a group of QBs that will be considered a Herbert may not even be one of them because he may elect to stay in school. Anyone who says anything regarding the draft-worthiness of the potential 2019 class of QBs in October of 2018 doesn't know wtf they are talking about.
Any draft analyst or "expert" worth anything knows there is too much football left to be played, there are still the "all-star" games to be played (i.e. the Senior Bowl), there is the combine testing and pro days and all the evaluation in between.
You might have an idea or an opinion of how you see things right now, but before all of that takes place, for you to say the 2019 class isn't good, and that there are no franchise, championship-caliber NFL QBs in the class in October of 2018, means you clearly don't have a clue as to what you are talking about and are throwing shit against the wall.
Frankly if you are of the draft a QB just because and you don't even have a QB favorite, maybe we should end this conversation because you aren't ready for it. I have looked at video highlights of the top tier QBs so while my opinion my be shit, I stand by my statement they all have flaws and aren't worth drafting #1. At least I've done some research vs talking from my gut.
Don't forget the axiom draft the wrong QB and you set your franchise back half a decade. But yeah let's force a QB for the hell of it. And don't forget, everything they say about the QB position also applies to the left tackle position.
One thing I have a problem with and it's not just what you are saying but what others say also is in talking about the "QB class" or the "Offensive Line class". Why do I care about how good the class is if I'm Dave Gettleman? I'm only drafting one QB. So I don't give a rip how good QBs two through twenty are. I just need to get that one guy. It is very likely the Giants will be well-positioned in 2019 to get the guy of their choice. And the reason for that is the Giants are not a good football team, and the other bad football teams very recently invested in franchise QBs. The competition for the first pick in the draft will be between the Giants, the Bills, the Cardinals, the 49ers, and MAYBE the Raiders. Out of those teams, only the Raiders MIGHT cut Carr or just use their first round pick on a QB despite having him in place, and it would be tremendously cost-prohibitive to do so, but it's possible.
The only teams that are likely to pursue a QB in the 2019 are all good enough teams that will finish with more wins than the Giants and would likely have to pay a HEAVY cost to move ahead of them. And that's only if the Giants aren't picking #1, which they have a good chance to do.
I hear this talk about the Giants finishing with 6 wins. Well, there is no teams without at least 1 win, and we are more than a quarter through the season, and the Giants have just one. I do not believe they will beat the Eagles tonight so they are staring 1-5 in the face before having to travel to Atlanta in a tough building to win in. Finishing with 3 wins or fewer this season is a very real possibility. If they finish with 3 wins or fewer, they will very likely have the top overall pick, because I do not believe any of the other 31 teams are bad enough to go 2-14 or worse. The Giants could actually have the top overall pick at 4-12.
I'm with you. I'm as hardcore a realist as there is and as far as I'm concerned until they show otherwise this team will finish 1-15 and have the 1st pick in the draft.
Again, I don't want to hear about draft class.
Funny statement to make on a discussion about the draft & draft class.
Not using your 1st round pick on an OL does not preclude you from improving the OL, and in fact, since you believe this OL class is so good, then they should be able to wait until the 2nd round and get a really good OL to help this team.
Not drafting a QB in round 1 doesn't stop the Giants from drafting one in the 2nd either. Worked for Drew Brees. Turn - the fact this draft is deep at offensive tackle should justify the Giants taking the best one first. They'll be a run on them in the first round. I'd rather of the cream of the crop guy than the 7th or 8th one that's leftover after the other teams raid the position. But hey let's replay the Jeff Hatch experience because that worked out so great before.
Btw I've been following the NFL for more than 30 years.
So have I. Guess we're both cranky middle age men.
I know who hard it is to maintain OL continuity. It's damn near impossible. Even if you hit the lottery and get your 5 guys, like Dallas did, you have just two years before you are already needing to plug holes again, and that's just if you are lucky. It's the nature of the NFL in this free agency era. You are ALWAYS building the OL. If you don't have that mentality, you will be back where you started before you can blink.
Agreed lines don't stay together. But right now the Giants don't have any backup to Soldier who has NFL left tackle experience. That's a huge problem to me when my left tackle is 30. More so than the QB situation. I get you disagree.
My advocacy is the draft Williams 1st overall plug him in a right tackle for up to 3 years, until Soldier moves on. Draft the best right guard with the 1st pick in the 2nd round and figure out the center later. Assuming we hit on the picks we'd have bookend guards for next several years, a clear left tackle transition plan, and sometime in the next three years we draft a right tackle. It's crazy foundational team building I know.
Further, any QB the Giants draft must be able to evade the pass rush in the modern NFL. That's not to say that the OL is unimportant, but the chances are good that no matter who you are, you are going to play under duress for the majority of your career. There are few clean pockets in the NFL anymore.
Again I think this is conditioning from a decade of failure to focus high picks on the line and trying to plug and play lower draft picks and/or weaker free agents. We drafted a generational running back who is oftentimes coming into contact with the first defender 2 or 3 steps after getting the ball. Imagine how much Barkley's play could improve if we had lineman who could push the d-line back 2 yards every play allowing him to get a running start before first contact. Makes more sense to me in the short-term than drafting a QB just because. And you're right there are few clean pockets anymore, but the teams that do maintain clean pockets are all perennial playoff teams - odd coincidence.
The feedback I received is that he has a cannon arm, but has trouble throwing the intermediate routes.
I know he can throw the long balls on a dime. I have witnessed that myself.
What has changed from last season to this season?
He's made every throw possible this year. His accuracy with the medium and long routes has been brilliant.
Frankly if you are of the draft a QB just because and you don't even have a QB favorite, maybe we should end this conversation because you aren't ready for it. I have looked at video highlights of the top tier QBs so while my opinion my be shit, I stand by my statement they all have flaws and aren't worth drafting #1. At least I've done some research vs talking from my gut.
Don't forget the axiom draft the wrong QB and you set your franchise back half a decade. But yeah let's force a QB for the hell of it. And don't forget, everything they say about the QB position also applies to the left tackle position.
Every QB has flaws. This is what many seem to forget when discussing QB's. There is no perfect QB in any draft. If you don't like them that's fine as you are entitled to your opinion but even Peyton Manning had flaws. Brady, Brees, and Rodgers had more than one coming out also.
Secondly the most annoying part of the QB debate are those who misinterpret the desire to draft a QB. We don't want to draft a QB just for the sake of it. Just as we did in Aprils draft there were QB's we liked because of their play and upside not solely because they are QB's. I really like Herbert and I think he has franchise upside. I do not want Lock though. Grier is intriguing but I am not sure if he has a high enough upside to take that high.
Solder (not Soldier), is a good LT. And just like you need to be prepared to replace him BEFORE his contract runs out, you also need to be prepared to replace your franchise QB.
Kyle Lauletta frowns at your lack of confidence.
That being said, your idea is to zero in on a LT in the first round of the 2019 draft. I guarantee you there will be good LTs in the 2020 draft also. And the 2021 draft.
Not true. The way college football has evolved most tackles have flaws that need correction. In the same way Barkley has a generational player, Williams from Alabama is the best technician to come out in several years. Also your logic applies to the QB position as well, and I'll at least defend that the QBs coming out next year are better than the QBs coming out this year.
There is no IMMEDIATE need to replace Solder. They will need to get players for that OL in the draft and/or free agency, but that doesn't mean it has to happen in the first round of the 2019 draft.
I hope to hell you're right and Nate stays healthy because if he goes down we're really fucked. I think that need is on par with finding our next QB.
Btw, Chad Wheeler has just as good a chance as anyone to be the LT of the future when Solder retires. Players develop, and Wheeler has steadily improved since he was drafted.
Since you were so offended I didn't realize Soldier signed a 4 year deal, can I be offended you think Wheeler was drafted?
Have you thought about Shurmur's window with this 2020 draft a QB plan? Have you thought about OBJ's and Barkley's? This team is built to win now. They are a good QB and a little help on defense away. It behooves them to get that franchise QB in the building as soon as possible, because it's going to be hard to keep this offensive talent together.
This makes no sense. On a team you think is built to win now you want to draft a guy who's going to sit and not play vs getting a top tier olineman who'll play from day one. Which one makes OBJ and Barkley better in the short term - hint it's drafting the tackle. Kyle Lauletta is still frowning.
Barkley no matter what
this year i am
Herbert no matter what
the kid has special talent. his ball placement is as good as any of the top 4 from 2018. def will be a learning curve coming from a spread, but lets not act like we havent seen it before.
as mentioned, mayfield didnt take many snaps under center and goff came from a spread.
college football is spread things out more and more, thus less and less OL talent is being produced. the NFL seems to be moving into the open spaces, pass catching backs, mobile QB mold too.
herbert would be a nice fit in shurmurs offense with his accuracy and ability to slide in the pocket. his athleticism is HIGHLY underrated. he sits behind manning for a year and in 2020 we roll with
herbert
barkley
obj
shep
engram
solder-hernandez-FA/draft-FA/draft-wheeler or FA
Quote:
Lauletta might be the guy. I know this might sound like I'm speaking Chinese, but scheme fit is important and something we are getting back too, and poised, accurate, mobile noodle arm Lauletta fits Shumur's scheme to a T.
This was the same comment that was made last year except it was Webb not Lauletta. I like Lauletta a lot but I have serious doubts if he has the arm strength to compete in NY during the windy winter weather.
You can't pass on a QB because you hope that a 4th round pick will work out. The best case scenario is that Lauletta and the 1st round pick work out then the Giants would have a great inexpensive backup for a couple of seasons that they could flip for picks before the end of his rookie contract ala Garappolo. There is no guarantee that our next franchise QB will never miss a game like Eli so having a solid backup is very important.
Davis Webb was the JPP of QBs, kind of a shot in the dark. I think Lauletta is a more thought out pick, a WCO type QB you can get cheaply in the draft - like a noodle armed Joe Montana or Aaron Rodgers, neither of whom were the expensive 6'4" cannon arm big time college QBs. In the modern NFL, it's important to fit cheaper pieces to a scheme, something we haven't done in 7 years. So yeah, I have some hope for Lauletta.
Kyle Lauletta frowns at your lack of confidence.
Why should anyone have confidence in Kyle Lauletta? 4th round QBs should be treated with skepticism until they prove otherwise.
Everything you say about Williams was said about Greg Robinson. And further, as you agree there will be little competition at the top of the draft for QBs, that means there will by necessity be a lot of competition for other top prospects at premium positions. There is therefore a reduced chance that if Williams is this tremendous prospect that is a generational LT, that we would be able to get him unless we are picking at #1. The upshot of having a generational talent at LT vs having a very good LT is minimal, and less so if you have an evasive QB.
You could say the same thing about nearly every team in the NFL with regard to their starting LT. Some of them don't even have a good one to begin with. But regardless, no position is more important than the QB. Eli is going into the last year of his deal. In the 2020 draft, as many as 14 OTHER teams will also be looking for a QB in that draft. FOURTEEN. Here they are:
Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, Miami, potentially New England (Brady a free agent after 2019), Dallas (Prescott a free agent after 2019), Tennessee, Cincinatti, Pittsburgh, potentially Atlanta, the Packers, the Chargers, the Vikings, the Saints, and the Raiders will ALL either very probably or potentially be looking to find their next franchise QB in the draft.
I know he was a UDFA. But it is an unimportant detail to the conversation which is why I overlooked it. Btw I wasn't offended by your oversight, either, however Solder's length of contract is actually relevant.
It makes perfect sense, because I'm going to have another player who is going to play from Day 1, it's just not going to be a first rounder. The team is a QB away, if you keep delaying acquiring that QB then you are going to shorten your window of having him play with the assembled talent that is existing. What makes both OBJ and Barkley better even more so than a OT is a dynamic QB. A dynamic QB makes everyone better, drastically better, much more than an OT. And by the time my QB plays, he will have had a year to have familiarized himself with the system and a year with which to watch Eli Manning and see how a QB should prepare. When he steps on the field in 2020, he'll be ready to win games, not figuring out the speed of the NFL for the first time as a rookie and getting his confidence burned. Your logic is amazingly flawed.
In comment 14119265 Giantsfan79 said:
Frankly if you are of the draft a QB just because and you don't even have a QB favorite, maybe we should end this conversation because you aren't ready for it. I have looked at video highlights of the top tier QBs so while my opinion my be shit, I stand by my statement they all have flaws and aren't worth drafting #1. At least I've done some research vs talking from my gut.
Don't forget the axiom draft the wrong QB and you set your franchise back half a decade. But yeah let's force a QB for the hell of it. And don't forget, everything they say about the QB position also applies to the left tackle position.
1. I guarantee you I've watched and studied more of the 2019 QB class than 95% of this board. By April, that number will rise to just about everyone with the exception of Sy'56 and a couple of others.
2. I do have a favorite, but I also know that everyone has an "Incomplete" grade to this point and to rank them or make any judgements about them as to their professional potential with any level of confidence is not smart. In fact, it would be useless. If you must know, I'm particularly intrigued with Ryan Finley. Have you watched any of Finley's play? Done any homework on him? Be honest.
Funny statement to make on a discussion about the draft & draft class.
This is about specifically the Giants' strategy for their 2019 first round pick. It is not a discussion about draft class, at least, that's NOT what I'm discussing and frankly I don't understand how you can't acknowledge the point. The overall class is unimportant at the position because the class could have 1 great QB and a bunch of bums after that, and that would be even more of a reason for the Giants to take that QB if they were in the position to do so, not less. Again, the Giants aren't drafting the draft class. They are drafting only one of them. For them it's about getting the right one.
Not drafting a QB in round 1 doesn't stop the Giants from drafting one in the 2nd either. Worked for Drew Brees. Turn - the fact this draft is deep at offensive tackle should justify the Giants taking the best one first. They'll be a run on them in the first round. I'd rather of the cream of the crop guy than the 7th or 8th one that's leftover after the other teams raid the position. But hey let's replay the Jeff Hatch experience because that worked out so great before.
I'm sure you know this but the chances of successfully drafting a franchise QB after the first round are much more diminished than finding a starting-caliber OT after the first round. The QB is the most important position, it is not LT. The QB is the most responsible person in the entire organization as to wins or losses on Sundays. Not the LT. I know that's a bold statement and if you want to argue head coach or GM fine, I'll concede that point to you but Peyton Manning took his team to the playoffs across multiple head coaches, GMs, and LTs. I believe he missed the playoffs twice as the starter, one being his rookie year. In fact, he won a Super Bowl with a back up LT. And that's because if you have a great QB, then LT is much less important. *note* I did not say unimportant.
So have I. Guess we're both cranky middle age men.
Guilty as charged.
Agreed lines don't stay together. But right now the Giants don't have any backup to Soldier who has NFL left tackle experience. That's a huge problem to me when my left tackle is 30. More so than the QB situation. I get you disagree.
My advocacy is the draft Williams 1st overall plug him in a right tackle for up to 3 years, until Soldier moves on. Draft the best right guard with the 1st pick in the 2nd round and figure out the center later. Assuming we hit on the picks we'd have bookend guards for next several years, a clear left tackle transition plan, and sometime in the next three years we draft a right tackle. It's crazy foundational team building I know.
30 is not ancient for a OL. Many OL play very well into their mid-30's. I don't know why you continue to beat the drum about Solder. Frankly, we are lucky to have him, many organizations don't have as good a LT as him. I don't disagree we need a OT for at least depth or to compete for the RT spot. Drafting is one way to acquire a player. There is also free agency. There are a lot of quality OL that are scheduled free agents after this season. We can draft a starting caliber OT in the 2nd round. The value for drafting OL is almost always much greater in the 2nd round than it is in the top of the first round. Conversely, the value of drafting a QB at the top of the first round is almost always greater than the value in drafting a Quarterback after the first round. This isn't hard. The right quarterback is a franchise changer. That is never said about a OT. Never. Not even Orlando Pace, who I think is the best LT ever. He was great for a long time, playing all but a handful of games from '97 to 2005. And they won a Super Bowl with him, but they also missed the playoffs 4 times in those 9 years. In fact, in his first two seasons they went 9-23.
Conversely, Ben Roethlisberger has also missed the playoffs 4 times...in 14 seasons, and Ben has only once finished a season with a losing record, going 7-8 in 2006.
There is nothing to prevent the Giants from getting a very good OL and getting their franchise QB in the first round of the 2019 draft. Nothing. There is nothing stopping them from having a transition plan to Solder or replacing the RT position by next year. And you can build a team up and have the Cowboys' line and go nowhere if you don't have the right QB.
OMG do you know how much I roll my eyes when you suggest I have been "conditioned" to think a certain way because of what the Giants have done? The Giants drafted plenty of OL, and they missed. The missed on Flowers, they missed on Richburg (to a degree), and they missed on Justin Pugh. Two 1st rounders and a 2nd, since 2013 and not counting this year. It's almost as if first round tackles don't always pan out. Barkley is as much getting hit early because teams do not respect Eli Manning's ability to do significant damage to them as they are by poor blocking. That is not all on the OL.
How long do you think Shurmur has before Gettleman or Mara get impatient and fire him? If you want to wait until 2020, you better hope they are going to give him 4 years. Otherwise, your QB might have to learn 2 systems in 2 years.
Anyway nobody is talking about forcing a pick. Nobody is talking about taking an inferior QB when a much better player is available. As I already stated, if you do NOT believe that the QBs available at your pick in the first round are championship-caliber franchise QB talents, you pass on them. You have stated you believe that to be case, and I have stated that anyone who says that in October of 2018 cannot be taken seriously. Opinions can and will change on the assessment of the QBs in the 2019 class from now until April. It will happen, as sure as the sun rising in the east. Some will rise and others will fall. My argument is that the Giants should and will take one if there is a franchise QB there at their pick. QB class doesn't matter. If that one guy is there, they should take him. You seem to think that it's easy to get a franchise QB. But what if they pass and they are team #8 of 14 looking for a QB in the 2020 draft? They are shit outta luck, that's what. You think that because the class is supposedly good in 2020 that means the Giants will be able to get one. It's not that simple. They can just as easily be left out in the cold and now you are scrambling in 2021 and pretty soon you are the Browns. Speaking of the Browns, you know who was pretty good for them? Joe Thomas. A lotta good he did for their franchise, right? Why? Because they never got the right QB.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
psst - season is over.I Just hope there is a "Franchise Caliber QB talent" available when we pick.