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| In recent years, some individuals inside the organization have believed that Manning is holding the team back. Most have since been fired. |
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| Some thought Manning was the problem as far back as four or five years ago, according to sources with knowledge of the Giants thinking. |
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
Why anyone makes any reference to him or Pat Leonard is scary.
2016 ran slants every down with a horrible line, a horrible coach, horrible running backs, horrible te, and one good skill player.
2017- worst o-line in history of league, worst wrs in history of league, worst running backs in history of league, worst coach in history of league.
2018- they played 5 games with a new line, scheme, etc.
Said people in organization also considered hart, Flowers, donnell, perkins to be nfl players.
Judging Eli in those circumstances can only be limited to "How does Eli Play with the worst surrounding cast ever, only throwing slants?"
Its also akin to saying that Connor of the Steelers is a better running back than Barkley.
Why anyone makes any reference to him or Pat Leonard is scary.
Easier to shoot the messenger than to deal with the substance.
Easier to shoot the messenger than to deal with the substance.
Newsflash. Eli is old and isnt as good as he once was. But when that is the basis of every article you write so you can fit in at ESPN is disgraceful.
I would ask Ranaan why we havent been able to run the ball in 8 years - or why our defense cant make a stop in 4th quarters.... but that would take knowledge and some reseach. Something Ranaan sucks donkey balls at.
We're 1-4. What are the beat writers supposed to be positive about?
He's not coming here.
Get over it.
Just guessing...
- thought Bobby Hart was a starting caliber RT
- thought that it was wise to go into last season with Adam Bisnowaty as the primary backup to two terrible OT's?
- Used the 10th overall pick on Eli Apple
- Allowed Linval Joseph to walk
- Hired Ben McAdoo as head coach
- thought Jennings was a good starting RB
Raanan is right to a point - most things have been changed out in an attempt to resolve the problems, and the results haven't improved. From a logical standpoint, it would be reasonable to assume the next thing you'd change is the QB.
If Eli is just a symptom of a much bigger problem on O, then him having a seat and being replaced by the likes of Geno or Webb (who was obviously not ready for that), would only stand to prove the point that Eli wasn't responsible for the offensive malaise.
Instead, we got one game with Geno against a middling team, and got similar results. Should have left him in there another game or two to prove it out once and for all.
It's not about defending Eli or not defending Eli. The TEAM has been pretty bad the last few seasons aside from the playoff year.
I don't believe that - there are a lot of bad rosters out there.
I don't think the Giants believed that either - they went with a couple of stop gap moves in an attempt to win now. Otherwise, it made no sense handing out big money to Solder and good money to Omameh and Stewart.
Just guessing...
Nothing to do with Eli. Has to do with the shittiness of Ranaan.
The guy threw 30 and 35 touchdowns those years to 14 interceptions both years.
I remember 2015 vividly and he certainly wasn't the problem in either of those two years.
Raanan is right to a point - most things have been changed out in an attempt to resolve the problems, and the results haven't improved. From a logical standpoint, it would be reasonable to assume the next thing you'd change is the QB.
Just because things have changed, doesnt mean it has been for the better. In the last 6 years. We changed the OL from top to bottom. We changed the RB just about every year. We spent a number 2 pick on a sensational RB.
How come we cant run and why doesnt Ranaan say something about that?
The Solder signing is starting left tackle money in this league. What's the difference between 12M and 15M or whatever he got? If you're a decently quality LT in the NFL, you're going to get paid.
I think people still underestimate just how bad McAdoo's scheme was. Calling it vanilla was an insult to vanilla. It was horrible. He did nothing to help his WR's get open, he gave very little help to a disastrous OL in pass pro, his entire game plan was geared to getting Odell open on a slant. It was ridiculous.
At the end of the day, the next NYG QB is not on this roster, so it is up to Eli to right the ship. If we're 1-7 and out of the playoffs, I'd be fine with giving Lauletta some run, but he's not the answer either.
- Turned over about 60% of the roster
- Hired a new coach and GM
- Have a completely different OL
- Drafted Barkley at #2
But it is only "stop gap" because they retained Eli and hired Gettleman??
Do you guys really believe the shit you write or are you just so frustrated with losing that it doesn't matter if you sound like fucking morons?
So true, it's weird...
He posted that pic showing Eli having "good protection" but failing to find the open guy. Never mind that we were keeping 8 guys in to block 4, meaning we had 2 WR's out in coverage against seven defenders.... But he had time!
But these problems are magnified by Eli's complete immobility. He can't extend plays. That is a must in today's NFL. NFL DEs are just so much faster than they were even 10 years ago. OL play has also deteriorated because many college teams use spread offenses where the ball comes out quickly. The end result is that a mobile QB is an absolute necessity.
Time runs out for everyone.
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along the lines of posters defending Eli and others not.
Just guessing...
Nothing to do with Eli. Has to do with the shittiness of Ranaan.
But offended because eli is the subject by the reporter...
But these problems are magnified by Eli's complete immobility. He can't extend plays. That is a must in today's NFL. NFL DEs are just so much faster than they were even 10 years ago. OL play has also deteriorated because many college teams use spread offenses where the ball comes out quickly. The end result is that a mobile QB is an absolute necessity.
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When you talk about Eli Manning and that Giants offense, he needs the perfect storm. He needs everything, the environment, perfect. He needs the protection to be perfect. He has the weapons. He has the running back. He has all those things. But that is not the nature of the National Football League. There are going to be times when you need to make plays off-platform, off-schedule. That is what the really good quarterbacks do.
Time runs out for everyone.
Lol. Pathetic.
But offended because eli is the subject by the reporter...
If you enjoy articles like these.... then what else can we say about you.
- Turned over about 60% of the roster
- Hired a new coach and GM
- Have a completely different OL
- Drafted Barkley at #2
But it is only "stop gap" because they retained Eli and hired Gettleman??
Do you guys really believe the shit you write or are you just so frustrated with losing that it doesn't matter if you sound like fucking morons?
Outside of the OL, how many of those changes were to starters? We shipped away JPP who's having a great year, didn't resign Kennard who's doing very well in Detroit, and for some inexplicable reason Hart's actually working as a serviceable RT in Cincinnati on a team that's winning. There was some talent on the roster as the core of the D was good enough to be one of the top ranked units in 2016, we have one of the best WRs in the league, and some good young talent in Engram and Shepard.
Obviously, the stop-gap reference was made very clear about the FA signings, but hey, why would you let the truth interfere with your nonsensical rantings? Nobody thought that the GM or HC hires were stop-gap or intended to be short term fixes, and obviously the guy you draft at #2 overall isn't going to be that either.
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should delete this shit. If he isnt shitting on Eli or OBJ - he was hiding from Flowers kicking the shit out of him.
Why anyone makes any reference to him or Pat Leonard is scary.
Easier to shoot the messenger than to deal with the substance.
Are you serious, Jeff? I mean given your posts, are you serious?
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers.
Link - ( New Window )
Hart - who may have been the worst OL in football and has been at best below average.
Kennard - who was constantly hurt and didnt produce and just because he has a few sacks - he was worth keeping.
JPP - a guy who literally quit playing and is on the WORST defense in the NFL.
Yeah, I am not losing sleep over it. The same people who are bitching these guys werent kept were probably the same ones who were bitching when they played here.
Those 3 players here arent difference makers whatsover.
On O, we have 6.
So 50% of our starters are different.
Stop gap my ass.
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they made some "stop-gap" moves!
- Turned over about 60% of the roster
- Hired a new coach and GM
- Have a completely different OL
- Drafted Barkley at #2
But it is only "stop gap" because they retained Eli and hired Gettleman??
Do you guys really believe the shit you write or are you just so frustrated with losing that it doesn't matter if you sound like fucking morons?
Outside of the OL, how many of those changes were to starters? We shipped away JPP who's having a great year, didn't resign Kennard who's doing very well in Detroit, and for some inexplicable reason Hart's actually working as a serviceable RT in Cincinnati on a team that's winning. There was some talent on the roster as the core of the D was good enough to be one of the top ranked units in 2016, we have one of the best WRs in the league, and some good young talent in Engram and Shepard.
Obviously, the stop-gap reference was made very clear about the FA signings, but hey, why would you let the truth interfere with your nonsensical rantings? Nobody thought that the GM or HC hires were stop-gap or intended to be short term fixes, and obviously the guy you draft at #2 overall isn't going to be that either.
jcn, I think DG knew the team would have its limits in 2018, and while some decisions look to be made to bolster 2018, it seems clear it would not be a quick turnaround either.
Letting JPP and DRC go were locker room culture changes.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
and there you go, someone jsut proved that even his research sucks fucking donkey balls. So now he is just making up shit as he goes to express a shitty view from shitty ESPN.
The only thing that needed to be learned that Jordan is shitty.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
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Outside of the OL, how many of those changes were to starters?
On O, we have 6.
So 50% of our starters are different.
Stop gap my ass.
ding ding....and the winner is fatman
You can usually figure out where the throw is supposed to go based on the coverage package. For the first few games, Eli was going to his checkdowns before allowing the deeper patterns to develop, even when not pressured. That isn't even arguable. Now there may have been other explanations for it, my guess is that Eli was still getting acclimated to Shurmer's system, but we shouldn't ignore that the problem exists.
I get that some of these players were cleared out because of chemistry and sometimes guys need a change of scenery to perform, but that doesn't change the fact that the team had and still has talent. They're flawed, without a doubt, but they shouldn't look this frikkin bad.
And here we are - after drafting Hernandez and paying Solder and Omameh - and we're still talking about how putrid the OL is. After we drafted a highly touted RB. There's been no incremental improvement, and the only solace seems to be 'well, we'll have another high draft pick next year'.
That's bad reporting/journalism.
Manning's stats, other than TDs, are actually quite good this year. Some of that is via checkdowns, but in the Jax/Tex/Car games he played quite well.
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Outside of the OL, how many of those changes were to starters?
On O, we have 6.
So 50% of our starters are different.
Stop gap my ass.
You're right, I forgot about how essential to building the future of this team it was to dump Darian Thompson for Curtis Riley and the addition of BW Webb. Those guys are definitely building blocks.
Reality is, I thought we would need considerable fortune and health and the bounces to go our way to win 7 games in 2018. In that vein, I suppose my moderate expectations have kept me from getting bent about this team.
Also expected to need 2-3 offseaons to get the talent level of the roster up to where they should be a winner. Signing Solder, drafting SB, etc didn't change my mind about their chances or strategy in 2018.
Whatever they believed, the reckoning is here and it will force more changes, and they're needed.
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is doing this thing now where he dissects every single Eli throw as if to say that he knows what Eli's reads are. If you did that with every QB in the league, you'd probably have a lot of results that look the same...I'm sure a guy is open on every single play, but since when does that mean that he is going to automatically throw it to him? "OMG Beckham was open deep! look!" Yeah well you aren't factoring that in about less than 1 second Eli is going to get destroyed by the linebacker coming around the edge.
You can usually figure out where the throw is supposed to go based on the coverage package. For the first few games, Eli was going to his checkdowns before allowing the deeper patterns to develop, even when not pressured. That isn't even arguable. Now there may have been other explanations for it, my guess is that Eli was still getting acclimated to Shurmer's system, but we shouldn't ignore that the problem exists.
I think something that may being missed is this. Even when the defense is in the right coverage to take away what you're doing on offense you still need to at times challenge the defense to do their job correctly. The offense is looking for a deeper route, the defense is in cover 4, well the defenders still need to execute their coverage assignments correctly. The qb would need to hold on to the ball a bit longer or buy some time to challenge the defense to stay with their call, now holding the ball behind this line hasn't been something any qb would want to do, so checking it down to what the coverage gives you becomes the habit.
As for Manning not wanting to get sacked, it has very little to do with the physical part of being sacked and much more about not wanting to set an offense back with a negative play, especially an offense that hasn't been operating with much confidence.
Good grief.......horrid.
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Darnold/Rosen - ( New Window )
He's basically done nothing but be a yes man, even if he cut the starting RT a couple days after taking over. traded JPP, parted ways with DRC and Flowers and provided the new coach with an entirely different OL.
it's all just part of the plan to have Eli hold the franchise hostage as Mara cares more about Eli's legacy than the team. Wasn't that apparent when we drafted Barkley, a guy who wouldn't go in the top 300 NFL players in a fantasy redraft of all current rosters?
We may have turned over 60% of the roster, but those guys are just scrubs, including the 50% starters we changed. It is all smoke and mirrors - Gettleman is a yes man, shurmur is his lackey and they all carry out the wishes of Mara.
Look, it doesn't take a lot of effort to write a steaming pile of shit like that - yet for some reason, some of you fucking lunatics actually think that's the case here. So much so that nearly each and every post borne out of frustration sounds like mad rantings about a conspiracy theory that has little root in reality, but because of a 1-4 record, it emboldens the masses.
And while you may quibble with this word and find it repetitive, it is ponderous. Fucking ponderous.
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Easier to shoot the messenger than to deal with the substance.
Newsflash. Eli is old and isnt as good as he once was. But when that is the basis of every article you write so you can fit in at ESPN is disgraceful.
I would ask Ranaan why we havent been able to run the ball in 8 years - or why our defense cant make a stop in 4th quarters.... but that would take knowledge and some reseach. Something Ranaan sucks donkey balls at.
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Reality is, I thought we would need considerable fortune and health and the bounces to go our way to win 7 games in 2018. In that vein, I suppose my moderate expectations have kept me from getting bent about this team.
Also expected to need 2-3 offseaons to get the talent level of the roster up to where they should be a winner. Signing Solder, drafting SB, etc didn't change my mind about their chances or strategy in 2018.
Whatever they believed, the reckoning is here and it will force more changes, and they're needed.
It's hard to believe that the timeline is so extensive. Save for the Browns, that doesn't seem to be the case very often in the NFL.
And I was one who had managed expectations coming in. I didn't think they'd go past 6 wins. In part because I thought the roster was flawed, and in part because I didn't have faith in the management changes. But for a team that managed to win 11 games 2 years ago to finish 3-13 last season with a slew of injuries and some malcontents to shed some of those problematic players, get a draft of high picks, sign a couple of FAs and get players back healthy to open up 1-4 is alarming.
Why anyone makes any reference to him or Pat Leonard is scary.
Flowers best play as a Giant
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Of course it's Eli's fault we cant run the ball, why would you have an original thought for once?
Plus I didnt know a cover 2 was a run stopping defense? I mean 2 deep safeties means less people in the box which means it should be EASIER to run the ball. But it's easier for you jsut to blame Eli.
Research is your friend. In-depth thinking.... is not.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
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In comment 14118784 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Your incorrect snarkiness aside, you can "what if" something to death. Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . .
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In comment 14118694 jeff57 said:
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Easier to shoot the messenger than to deal with the substance.
Newsflash. Eli is old and isnt as good as he once was. But when that is the basis of every article you write so you can fit in at ESPN is disgraceful.
I would ask Ranaan why we havent been able to run the ball in 8 years - or why our defense cant make a stop in 4th quarters.... but that would take knowledge and some reseach. Something Ranaan sucks donkey balls at.
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Cover 2 typically means two deep safeties, which usually means 7 in the box.
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In comment 14118818 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14118784 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Your incorrect snarkiness aside, you can "what if" something to death. Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . .
That's horseshit. Complete horseshit and you know it.
And you know I'm right. I've seen your posts. Clarence Thomas says more on the Supreme Court than you do in any of your posts.
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Cover 2 typically means two deep safeties, which usually means 7 in the box.
Do not burden him with facts and concepts of football. It may diverge him from saying something other than its Eli's fault.
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That is one of the biggest pitfalls around here, deciding something is fact before time allows for the true answer.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
Your assumption about My post isn't correct I don't think. What do you think I'm defending?
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Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Cover 2 typically means two deep safeties, which usually means 7 in the box.
Do not burden him with facts and concepts of football. It may diverge him from saying something other than its Eli's fault.
I'll send him an invoice💰 later, it's all good 👍
there is one constant
Eli Manning
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In comment 14118831 crick n NC said:
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That is one of the biggest pitfalls around here, deciding something is fact before time allows for the true answer.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
Your assumption about My post isn't correct I don't think. What do you think I'm defending?
From my interpretation, I thought you were implying that my thinking pattern is that Darnold and Rosen will most certainly not be franchise QBs as if it is written in stone.
there is one constant
Eli Manning
Common denominator thinking has it's place, but there certainly are a lot of moving parts on the field.
there is one constant
Eli Manning
Actually there have been a lot of constants.
OBJ has been a constant on the team
Poor OLs have been constant
Inconsistent run game
Bad Special teams
Questionable coachign decisions
Sans 2016, bad defense
But go ahead...
why does this get repeated ad nauseum?
The poor OL play has been another constant, as has ignoring the LB position.
The new regime has already made inroads in those areas.
And strictly speaking, the ownership is the same too.
There have been a lot of constants - but if you want to shit on Eli - you ignore the rest. It is what people do around here.
Then after that, one particular poster is saying he needs to "delete this ****"....
Hmmm why are some of you so controlling? In fact its showing me and everyone else here how controlling your behavior is.
Who are you to tell what others can and cannot post here?
He's basically done nothing but be a yes man, even if he cut the starting RT a couple days after taking over. traded JPP, parted ways with DRC and Flowers and provided the new coach with an entirely different OL.
it's all just part of the plan to have Eli hold the franchise hostage as Mara cares more about Eli's legacy than the team. Wasn't that apparent when we drafted Barkley, a guy who wouldn't go in the top 300 NFL players in a fantasy redraft of all current rosters?
We may have turned over 60% of the roster, but those guys are just scrubs, including the 50% starters we changed. It is all smoke and mirrors - Gettleman is a yes man, shurmur is his lackey and they all carry out the wishes of Mara.
Look, it doesn't take a lot of effort to write a steaming pile of shit like that - yet for some reason, some of you fucking lunatics actually think that's the case here. So much so that nearly each and every post borne out of frustration sounds like mad rantings about a conspiracy theory that has little root in reality, but because of a 1-4 record, it emboldens the masses.
And while you may quibble with this word and find it repetitive, it is ponderous. Fucking ponderous.
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In comment 14118835 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118831 crick n NC said:
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That is one of the biggest pitfalls around here, deciding something is fact before time allows for the true answer.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
Your assumption about My post isn't correct I don't think. What do you think I'm defending?
From my interpretation, I thought you were implying that my thinking pattern is that Darnold and Rosen will most certainly not be franchise QBs as if it is written in stone.
No sir, a lot of fans treated this qb crop as can't miss franchise qbs even if they didn't say it directly, and those types of comments are still popular on account of the ugly mood some have around here for not taking a st as if it's extremely unlikely the giants will get another shot at one instead of focusing on the building block the team got this past draft (Barkley)
"New defensive coordinator James Bettcher is likely to bring a 3-4 heavy defense to New York, which is not a fit for how JPP rushes. He's a traditional 4-3 end."
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In comment 14118823 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118818 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14118784 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Your incorrect snarkiness aside, you can "what if" something to death. Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . .
That's horseshit. Complete horseshit and you know it.
And you know I'm right. I've seen your posts. Clarence Thomas says more on the Supreme Court than you do in any of your posts.
LOL. Now, them's fighting words. Anyway, someone can write paragraph after paragraph, and say nothing.
What's horseshit? Following your argument to its logical conclusion?
Then after that, one particular poster is saying he needs to "delete this ****"....
Hmmm why are some of you so controlling? In fact its showing me and everyone else here how controlling your behavior is.
Who are you to tell what others can and cannot post here?
Go away. We proved the article was factually wrong and was written to spark controversy from a shitty writer and source.
Again, go away.
Then after that, one particular poster is saying he needs to "delete this ****"....
Hmmm why are some of you so controlling? In fact its showing me and everyone else here how controlling your behavior is.
Who are you to tell what others can and cannot post here?
My thing with Jeff is that he's a bad poster. 'Tis all. Take it from someone who has looked like a jackass on many occasions, he doesn't want to be known as the guy who thinks his word is gospel. If much smarter football minds like B in ALB and Fat Man can be loquacious and not give one-sentence answers, Jeff can too.
Just guessing...
rinse...repeat
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I get it, it's ugly and hard to sit through another shitter given how precious football season is to us.
Reality is, I thought we would need considerable fortune and health and the bounces to go our way to win 7 games in 2018. In that vein, I suppose my moderate expectations have kept me from getting bent about this team.
Also expected to need 2-3 offseaons to get the talent level of the roster up to where they should be a winner. Signing Solder, drafting SB, etc didn't change my mind about their chances or strategy in 2018.
Whatever they believed, the reckoning is here and it will force more changes, and they're needed.
It's hard to believe that the timeline is so extensive. Save for the Browns, that doesn't seem to be the case very often in the NFL.
And I was one who had managed expectations coming in. I didn't think they'd go past 6 wins. In part because I thought the roster was flawed, and in part because I didn't have faith in the management changes. But for a team that managed to win 11 games 2 years ago to finish 3-13 last season with a slew of injuries and some malcontents to shed some of those problematic players, get a draft of high picks, sign a couple of FAs and get players back healthy to open up 1-4 is alarming.
The poor drafting is killing them and is really visible now. The roster is a somewhat top heavy and lacking in depth. They're still deficient on the OL and the pass rush (which I really warned the forum about), thin in the secondary, etc.
Factor in the system changes, youth, new coaches, and more than 50% roster turnover and we're faced with a lot of moving parts to pull together. Let's see what the next 11 games delivers.
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In comment 14118699 dep026 said:
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Of course it's Eli's fault we cant run the ball, why would you have an original thought for once?
Plus I didnt know a cover 2 was a run stopping defense? I mean 2 deep safeties means less people in the box which means it should be EASIER to run the ball. But it's easier for you jsut to blame Eli.
Research is your friend. In-depth thinking.... is not.
I did my research and found numerous sources saying Cover 2 was a very effective scheme against the run.
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In comment 14118844 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14118835 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118831 crick n NC said:
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That is one of the biggest pitfalls around here, deciding something is fact before time allows for the true answer.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
Your assumption about My post isn't correct I don't think. What do you think I'm defending?
From my interpretation, I thought you were implying that my thinking pattern is that Darnold and Rosen will most certainly not be franchise QBs as if it is written in stone.
No sir, a lot of fans treated this qb crop as can't miss franchise qbs even if they didn't say it directly, and those types of comments are still popular on account of the ugly mood some have around here for not taking a st as if it's extremely unlikely the giants will get another shot at one instead of focusing on the building block the team got this past draft (Barkley)
You're right. And they're not. None of the QBs have looked particularly good. Actually, Sam Darnold has looked better than I thought, but still not great. And I'm not going to pile on them because the kids are rookie and it would be hypocritical of me to do so, but the same concerns I had before the Draft are still present, i.e. Darnold turning the ball over; Rosen's long-term longevity and Allen's accuracy being erratic.
I did my research and found numerous sources saying Cover 2 was a very effective scheme against the run.
ok....
Weve had mostly crappy years since SB XLVI. You also know what? Weve been to 3 SBs this millenium, winning two. Who, besides the Pats and the Steelers can say that? WHO ELSE CAN SAY THAT?
Be thankful that weve had such joy, the likes of which has only been shared (as often) by two other teams in nearly 20 years.
So we have sucked for longer than wed like. Be fucking thankful and grow a pair. There is that light at the end of the current tunnel and its not an oncoming train.
It's not a run stopping defense, it's a defense that tends to indicate your front seven is stopping the run without the safety up in the box as an extra.
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In comment 14118837 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14118823 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118818 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14118784 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Your incorrect snarkiness aside, you can "what if" something to death. Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . .
That's horseshit. Complete horseshit and you know it.
And you know I'm right. I've seen your posts. Clarence Thomas says more on the Supreme Court than you do in any of your posts.
LOL. Now, them's fighting words. Anyway, someone can write paragraph after paragraph, and say nothing.
What's horseshit? Following your argument to its logical conclusion?
"Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . "
Uh, no. Newsflash: some QBs are better prospects than others. Andrew Luck may not have been a perfect prospect, but he was as well-rounded coming out of Stanford as they come and was worthy of the #1 pick. Somewhat similarly, I think (and have documented for a while now) that Justin Herbert is not only a better prospect than Allen, Rosen and Darnold, but will end up with a better career than all of them as well. So yes, barring something unforeseen, if Justin Herbert is around where we pick, I would take him.
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In comment 14118827 oldutican said:
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In comment 14118699 dep026 said:
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Of course it's Eli's fault we cant run the ball, why would you have an original thought for once?
Plus I didnt know a cover 2 was a run stopping defense? I mean 2 deep safeties means less people in the box which means it should be EASIER to run the ball. But it's easier for you jsut to blame Eli.
Research is your friend. In-depth thinking.... is not.
I did my research and found numerous sources saying Cover 2 was a very effective scheme against the run.
It's not that it can't be, in fact cover 2 (whether zone or man) would be a very good choice to defend a team who is having problems getting the ball down the field.
Manning can get the ball down the field, the OL hasn't allowed for much of that, but teams also know the giants have legit speed to beat them deep, put two safeties back to defend against Odell, let the giants OL struggle continue to struggle with run blocking until proven otherwise.
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the plain fact is the team has been struggling for years
there is one constant
Eli Manning
Actually there have been a lot of constants.
OBJ has been a constant on the team
Poor OLs have been constant
Inconsistent run game
Bad Special teams
Questionable coachign decisions
Sans 2016, bad defense
But go ahead...
Zak DeOssie, he's the problem...
Don't use that fucking tool sxcda's research. It sounds like that's what you've done here.
Being ignorant about a defensive scheme is one thing. Going and researching it and still not having a fucking clue about the scheme ratchets it up to a whole new level of absurdity
Second, and this is unconscionable, IMO, Ranaan pretty much says, at worst he disingenuously implies, that people were fired because they criticized Eli.
Reese and Mac were fired (staffs too). But they were unarguably fired because of a) team performance and b) a slew of personnel and coaching decisions having nothing to do with the QB. Also, many on the staff were also fired. But, when you fired heads, the underlings invariable are canned as well.
It's just so freaking dishonest.
Second, and this is unconscionable, IMO, Ranaan pretty much says, at worst he disingenuously implies, that people were fired because they criticized Eli.
Reese and Mac were fired (staffs too). But they were unarguably fired because of a) team performance and b) a slew of personnel and coaching decisions having nothing to do with the QB. Also, many on the staff were also fired. But, when you fired heads, the underlings invariable are canned as well.
It's just so freaking dishonest.
It's raanan. Substance doesnt matter. Clicks do.
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Why does this bother some of you so much? All the OP did was show a few quotes and a link to an article.
Then after that, one particular poster is saying he needs to "delete this ****"....
Hmmm why are some of you so controlling? In fact its showing me and everyone else here how controlling your behavior is.
Who are you to tell what others can and cannot post here?
My thing with Jeff is that he's a bad poster. 'Tis all. Take it from someone who has looked like a jackass on many occasions, he doesn't want to be known as the guy who thinks his word is gospel. If much smarter football minds like B in ALB and Fat Man can be loquacious and not give one-sentence answers, Jeff can too.
To be fair, he sicked way worse when we had some of the more controversial NFT's.
Teach us more jerry reese jr
I am fairly certain any type of defense give Eli & Co. trouble...
Cue the clown music.
When you hadnt thought the show reached a new low.... in comes rflairr.
Lets see what the facts are...
Gettleman traded away the Giants 4th and 6th round picks THIS YEAR, for LB Alec Ogletree. They also took on his 42 million dollar contract.
Gettleman traded away the Giants 2019 3rd round pick for CB Sam Beal.
Gettleman signed LT Nate Solder to a 5 year 62 million dollar contract.
Gettleman resigned WR Odell Beckham Jr to a 95 million dollar contract.
Gettleman signed Kareem Martin to a 3 year 15 million dollar contract
Gettleman signed OT Patrick Omameh to a 3 year 15 million dollar contract.
Gettleman used the #2 overall pick in the draft for what he believed was a generational talent at RB. 4 year 31 million dollar contract.
All in all, Gettleman used up 173 million out of 177 million dollars in cap the Giants had in 2018. That leaves the team with only 4 million in cap space, this year.
If you actually believe what this poster is attempting to spin, that this isn't a win now team, then I feel sorry for you.
Do not believe him, he is delusional, and a liar. Even if the Giants are 1-15 on the year, he will find a way to spin that narrative as well.
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The Panthers were wobbly ducks with no velocity behind them
When you hadnt thought the show reached a new low.... in comes rflairr.
Yeah, I mean Sam Beal who was projected to be a first rounder next year draft and getting him for a 3rd means we are going for the SUPER BOWL BABY!
God forbid DG try to revamp the OL and repaying our best player. JFC, when will this shit stop?
Cap space is fungible from year to year and what you have left in 2018 has little bearing on what will happen in 2019.
Ideally, you want to be up against the cap each year - provided you are making the right moves.
You can argue some of the moves, but to indicate it is bad use of the cap to be right up against it indicates a lack of awareness about the cap.
It is what it is.
I am sorry but harping on the same thing in every article is not good journalism - whether its true or not. he ius the beat reprorter of an NFL team and does nothing but create articles (ones that are factually incorrect as well) just so people can read them.
There is nothing wrong with pointing out shitty journalism.
Is that "win now"? In a vein, sure, but win now doesn't mean expect to contend for a playoff spot or more.
It's not black and white.
And yet, just Sunday Eli threw a very good ball to Sheppard that led to the winning score.
People see what they want to see.
Is that "win now"? In a vein, sure, but win now doesn't mean expect to contend for a playoff spot or more.
It's not black and white.
That's right, it's not.
The goal is always to "win now". Every season, with what you have. A couple of bounces, some strokes of luck, and a healthy roster late in the season and who knows what can happen, year in, year out.
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In comment 14118805 JonC said:
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I get it, it's ugly and hard to sit through another shitter given how precious football season is to us.
Reality is, I thought we would need considerable fortune and health and the bounces to go our way to win 7 games in 2018. In that vein, I suppose my moderate expectations have kept me from getting bent about this team.
Also expected to need 2-3 offseaons to get the talent level of the roster up to where they should be a winner. Signing Solder, drafting SB, etc didn't change my mind about their chances or strategy in 2018.
Whatever they believed, the reckoning is here and it will force more changes, and they're needed.
It's hard to believe that the timeline is so extensive. Save for the Browns, that doesn't seem to be the case very often in the NFL.
And I was one who had managed expectations coming in. I didn't think they'd go past 6 wins. In part because I thought the roster was flawed, and in part because I didn't have faith in the management changes. But for a team that managed to win 11 games 2 years ago to finish 3-13 last season with a slew of injuries and some malcontents to shed some of those problematic players, get a draft of high picks, sign a couple of FAs and get players back healthy to open up 1-4 is alarming.
The poor drafting is killing them and is really visible now. The roster is a somewhat top heavy and lacking in depth. They're still deficient on the OL and the pass rush (which I really warned the forum about), thin in the secondary, etc.
Factor in the system changes, youth, new coaches, and more than 50% roster turnover and we're faced with a lot of moving parts to pull together. Let's see what the next 11 games delivers.
Jon C, the drafting is some of the worst drafting ever. Since 2007 ( which may have been the best class of Reese's ) the drafting has been God awful. This years draft is a thing of beauty ( McIntosh not so much ). It will take time for all the moving parts to come together. I like the Coach, I like the DC, I am hoping OV can help with the pass rush.
By biggest issue with what Gettlemen has done or not done was give Omameh all that money and not retain Fluker who I feel was a pretty good mover of men. I wish they drafted a Center or OT but like you said, you can't fix everything in one offseason.
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I hear things like, Eli throws a great deep ball. To be honest, we haven't seen that in years
And yet, just Sunday Eli threw a very good ball to Sheppard that led to the winning score.
People see what they want to see.
Hes thrown some good ones this year. Latimer against Dallas. OBJ/Shepard against Carolina. He threw a dandy to Engram that got called back.
People only remember the ones that are missed though.
Nothing but a hack
Eli can win if his defense plays lights out as they did during the two runs. So could Trent Dilfer Brad Johnson or Jim McMahon
Eli has been called out since 2007..... there have been brief lapses when he won the SB.... but the national media really has never been behind him.
Eli can win if his defense plays lights out as they did during the two runs. So could Trent Dilfer Brad Johnson or Jim McMahon
Yeah the 25th ranked defense in 2011 carried us.
God damn, man. What the hell has this board come to?
Eli can win if his defense plays lights out as they did during the two runs. So could Trent Dilfer Brad Johnson or Jim McMahon
When is the last time you can recall learning something new about football?
Are you of the mindset that you have obtained all there is to know by simply becoming familiar with the basics of the game?
I dont think so. People are glued to one position. But we need major overhaul in other areas and hopefully DG is working on those areas.
He's trying to fix the OL. We have our skilled players for a number of years. We have our DL. Just need depth and a couple more playmakers on defense.
Who? Odell, Demarcus Lawrence and Jalen Ramsey? Big whoop.
And is that why Ben McAdoo, the "great offensive mind," and Jerry Reese, the "architect of two Super Bowls," are sitting at home with no prospects on the horizon?
No they understood it's a work in progress with an obvious 2-3 year window to get things back on track from that goatfuck mess they inherited. But you don't sell tickets and merchandise saying that. We the fans are the ones that over estimated the talent on the team.
We are 5 games into a massive overhaul in every single aspect of the team. Yet we have had a brutal schedule and every single game but vs the Saints we have been competitive in. A situation like ours needs a bit of time to jell.
That makes sense, wasn't the defense ranked 31st in 2011? Yeah they carried the team or was it the 32nd ranked running game? Jesus christ the stupidity here sometimes is just overwhelming.
And that is when we are executing double teams!
The next game, look at the personnel of the defense and how few guys they are sending after Eli. And, yet, with minimal commitment, the defensive line is stuffing the run completely. Only finally are they not also causing turnstile protection.
The fewer guys rushing the QB, the more that sit in coverage.
Eli is near the end of his career. But he was always a pure pocket QB with limited mobility. And for several years now, he is undercut by an offensive line that doesn't allow the team to run the ball against defensive schemes that are asking us to run the ball while they keep more guys in coverage.
They take it to the level of feeling personally insulted by the losing and they always need a punching bag. So many in this fan base have made Eli that punching bag for years now.
When he was winning Super Bowls with more pedestrian stats they wanted him to put up better stats.
When he personally put up his best statistical seasons and the team started to go down the tubes, it's his fault they're not winning.
At this point now it's the combination of everything plus the fact that many had fallen in love with a bunch of QBs of which no one could definitively tell you was a "sure thing" prospect.
So now we live in a fantasy world where Eli has sucked retroactively to 5 years ago. False.
The franchise has been set back 15 years by passing on a QB. False.
We are destined for QB hell. False.
A lot of people on here take criticism of Eli as almost a personal insult. They have this emotional attachment to him that nothing can shake. Outside this bubble, football people seem to take a very different view. It's not personal, strictly business.
Yes, and how honest are they being with themselves ... a chunk of the fanbase is pissed off at it either way.
What really burns me though is the narrative that Eli has sucked since 2013. Bullshit, the passing game carried the team until McAdoo took over in 16. Since then the offense has sucked. Although Eli looked pretty good in Green Bay that year when the shirtless idiots he was throwing to let him down with drop after drop. But they were showing "passion".
Also, can we stop labeling Engram as a top talent until he produces on a consistent basis. He is hurt now, looks soft to me when he has the ball and drops everything. in sight. I plant him firmly in the overrated category right now.
This will be Eli's last year here, I hope the team can keep him above a winning career win loss record. I also hope the team sucks less so less articles like this will be written. Then everyone will get their wish and see how the shiny new QB works out when he is subjected to the NY media and a Beckham's tantrums when he is not force fed the ball. At least there will be passion.
One final note, want to help Eli, get a below average run game going. This will allow better down and distance and might actually show the league this unit has a pair and can smack some teams in the mouth. Slow down their rush a bit. Now it is always third and forever and they tee off on a pass rush since they are never challenged physically from the pillow soft NYG. I hope they win tonight, but that is my heart, my head expects a two score loss since this team sucks.
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Did this team overestimate how close they are to winning.
Yes, and how honest are they being with themselves ... a chunk of the fanbase is pissed off at it either way.
Well, that MIGHT be considered a win now move only because of the lack of CB depth we had. I mean Jackrabbit was fine, but he had that shit with his brother, which we didn't know how it would play out. Eli Apple was a GIGANTIC question mark. And then behind them was a bunch of mysteries.
But yes, Beal was drafted to be a starter in the future.
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In comment 14118908 Rflairr said:
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The Panthers were wobbly ducks with no velocity behind them
When you hadnt thought the show reached a new low.... in comes rflairr.
Why does that gif remind me of Bill Parcell. Holy fuck
Eli can win if his defense plays lights out as they did during the two runs. So could Trent Dilfer Brad Johnson or Jim McMahon
You drunk, homie?
To me, the crux of the issue is did DG and Shurmur miscalculate how effective Eli would be with how the team was constructed?
If the team ends 3-13 or 5-11, I would say they grossly erred on where the team was. In this scenario it was an absolute mistake to bring Eli back, should have drafted a QB and start the rebuild.
If they recover and get to 8-8, ELi's coming back, keep building the OL and OLB and get after it in 19. I will say in that scenario they made the right call.
In comment 14118772 Ira said:
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
In comment 14118772 Ira said:
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In comment 14118678 jeff57 said:
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
And what makes you believe that's not a result the offense or what he's being asked to do?
Both Shurmur, Eli, and formerly Case Keenum are quoted as saying the philosophy is not to take risks down the field, and rather check down and try for explosive plays with YAC.
In comment 14118772 Ira said:
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In comment 14118678 jeff57 said:
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
So who really cares how long the ball is in the air? Doesn't it matter, mostly, how much the actual gain is?
Meanwhile, if a five yard pass goes for a TD, you're loving that.
Now we are making up stats - or reaching for obscure stats - to prove a point.
Weak, IMO.
Seriously do appreciate everyone reading and following, regardless of some of the comments in this thread. Enjoy the game tonight.
In comment 14119044 Britt in VA said:
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Nice try. AIR yards per attempt. That's the average distance he throws the ball in the air, not the amount of yards that could be gained in part by a player breaking 5 tackles and running for a 50-yard gain. They are different stats.
In comment 14118772 Ira said:
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In comment 14118678 jeff57 said:
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
And what makes you believe that's not a result the offense or what he's being asked to do?
Both Shurmur, Eli, and formerly Case Keenum are quoted as saying the philosophy is not to take risks down the field, and rather check down and try for explosive plays with YAC.
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Nice try. AIR yards per attempt. That's the average distance he throws the ball in the air, not the amount of yards that could be gained in part by a player breaking 5 tackles and running for a 50-yard gain. They are different stats.
In comment 14118772 Ira said:
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In comment 14118678 jeff57 said:
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
And what makes you believe that's not a result the offense or what he's being asked to do?
Both Shurmur, Eli, and formerly Case Keenum are quoted as saying the philosophy is not to take risks down the field, and rather check down and try for explosive plays with YAC.
Exactly Brit.
There's one stat that's down, and that's passing TDs. In a passing league, you want to be scoring points.
Seriously do appreciate everyone reading and following, regardless of some of the comments in this thread. Enjoy the game tonight.
In comment 14119044 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14119037 JordanRaanan said:
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Nice try. AIR yards per attempt. That's the average distance he throws the ball in the air, not the amount of yards that could be gained in part by a player breaking 5 tackles and running for a 50-yard gain. They are different stats.
In comment 14118772 Ira said:
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In comment 14118678 jeff57 said:
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
And what makes you believe that's not a result the offense or what he's being asked to do?
Both Shurmur, Eli, and formerly Case Keenum are quoted as saying the philosophy is not to take risks down the field, and rather check down and try for explosive plays with YAC.
Decline since 2014? Eli threw for 35 TD's and 4500 yards in 2015.
Maybe it's because he is the best option? When Warner was here we had the 1st overall pick behind him. Would you rather see Tanney or Kyle Laueltta who isn't ready?
Again.... our run game is one of the worst since 201... how about some in depth information about that?
Oh wait thats too much to ask.
And that is when we are executing double teams!
The next game, look at the personnel of the defense and how few guys they are sending after Eli. And, yet, with minimal commitment, the defensive line is stuffing the run completely. Only finally are they not also causing turnstile protection.
The fewer guys rushing the QB, the more that sit in coverage.
Eli is near the end of his career. But he was always a pure pocket QB with limited mobility. And for several years now, he is undercut by an offensive line that doesn't allow the team to run the ball against defensive schemes that are asking us to run the ball while they keep more guys in coverage.
This. The drafting at OL under Reese was horrible and that affects the entire offense. If you can't run the ball, the O becomes one dimensional and play-action goes out the window.
2014 Y/A: 7.3
2015 Y/A: 7.2
2016 Y/A: 6.7
2017 Y/A: 6.1
2018 Y/A: 7.4
Its just a poor article in his long line of ones. We should expect better than this from our beat coverage people.
If they expected things to work seamlessly, then they should have their heads checked.
Stay the course and compete next year if there is notable improvement throughout the rest of the season. Otherwise, maybe you look to the future.
Seriously do appreciate everyone reading and following, regardless of some of the comments in this thread. Enjoy the game tonight.
In comment 14119044 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14119037 JordanRaanan said:
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Nice try. AIR yards per attempt. That's the average distance he throws the ball in the air, not the amount of yards that could be gained in part by a player breaking 5 tackles and running for a 50-yard gain. They are different stats.
In comment 14118772 Ira said:
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In comment 14118678 jeff57 said:
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
And what makes you believe that's not a result the offense or what he's being asked to do?
Both Shurmur, Eli, and formerly Case Keenum are quoted as saying the philosophy is not to take risks down the field, and rather check down and try for explosive plays with YAC.
Again.... our run game is one of the worst since 201... how about some in depth information about that?
Oh wait thats too much to ask.
It amazes me that the media continues to focus on Beckham meanwhile they ignore Antonio Brown's behavior. Once Brown does something it is reported once and then it's forgotten. Here is an article of Brown's antics this season that I am sure few know about. Meanwhile Beckham is vilified for the Carolina game and for hitting a kickers net.
Link - ( New Window )
It's not a run stopping defense, it's a defense that tends to indicate your front seven is stopping the run without the safety up in the box as an extra.
Bingo...
Only once has this team won 12 games with Eli as the QB - in 2008. That was clearly the best Giants team of the entire era. The biggest reason for that is that the offensive line was, for much of that year, elite. The Giants were first in the league with 2500 yards rushing, and third in the league in points scored. Our leading receiver was Domenik Hixon with 596 yards.
That team should have been the model...certainly on offense. Instead we have continued to build from the outside in by investing massive resources where we shouldn't. Think about what we have invested in Barkley, Beckham, Engram, and Shepard while spending years with the likes of Bobby Hart, John Jerry, Brett Jones, DJ Fluker, etc. protecting our quarterback.
A shiny house built on a foundation of sand.
So the follow up article had the headline: "Readers Choice: Tom Coughlin Should Walk Away from the Giants". I know that editors often write the headlines, but if you read the follow-up piece about the results, you wouldn't have known that most Giants fans wanted Coughlin to stay.
(http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2013/12/readers_choice_tom_coughlin_walks_away_from_giants.html)
Towards the end of his NJ.com tenure, I thought he improved and put out some good stuff. Once he went to ESPN, he reverted to clickbait crap.
Only once has this team won 12 games with Eli as the QB - in 2008. That was clearly the best Giants team of the entire era. The biggest reason for that is that the offensive line was, for much of that year, elite. The Giants were first in the league with 2500 yards rushing, and third in the league in points scored. Our leading receiver was Domenik Hixon with 596 yards.
That team should have been the model...certainly on offense. Instead we have continued to build from the outside in by investing massive resources where we shouldn't. Think about what we have invested in Barkley, Beckham, Engram, and Shepard while spending years with the likes of Bobby Hart, John Jerry, Brett Jones, DJ Fluker, etc. protecting our quarterback.
A shiny house built on a foundation of sand.
So the follow up article had the headline: "Readers Choice: Tom Coughlin Should Walk Away from the Giants". I know that editors often write the headlines, but if you read the follow-up piece about the results, you wouldn't have known that most Giants fans wanted Coughlin to stay.
(http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2013/12/readers_choice_tom_coughlin_walks_away_from_giants.html)
Towards the end of his NJ.com tenure, I thought he improved and put out some good stuff. Once he went to ESPN, he reverted to clickbait crap.
Absolutely.
There's no way that he has evidence. This is what ESPN does now.
I've always been a big fan/supporter of Eli, but I hope we draft a good one come May '19. Eli has been part of the problem the last 3 years, not really sure how any objective observer can claim otherwise. Not getting anywhere near $22.2 Million worth of QB play.
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Because it has been on a precipitous decline since 2014. So, yes, the new offense can be part of that. No doubt. But it seems to be part of a bigger trend.
Seriously do appreciate everyone reading and following, regardless of some of the comments in this thread. Enjoy the game tonight.
In comment 14119044 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14119037 JordanRaanan said:
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Nice try. AIR yards per attempt. That's the average distance he throws the ball in the air, not the amount of yards that could be gained in part by a player breaking 5 tackles and running for a 50-yard gain. They are different stats.
In comment 14118772 Ira said:
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In comment 14118678 jeff57 said:
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Manning is 32nd in the NFL with an average of 10.31 yards per completion. He's tied for 28th with a touchdown on 3.2 percent of his pass attempts. His 7.02 air yards per attempt put him 29th among quarterbacks.
All you have to do is watch him, one NFL executive said. Dont think about what his name is. Just watch him. Dont make excuses. Its blatant and obvious.
I don't know where JR gets his stats. I get them from ESPN. Eli is 19th in the league in 7.39 yards per attempt behind an o-line that hasn't given him much time. And that's one of his worst stats. With regard to the unnamed NFL exec, I do watch him and see a qb that does well when he's not constantly under attack by unblocked pass rushers. Link - ( New Window )
And what makes you believe that's not a result the offense or what he's being asked to do?
Both Shurmur, Eli, and formerly Case Keenum are quoted as saying the philosophy is not to take risks down the field, and rather check down and try for explosive plays with YAC.
Decline since 2014? Eli threw for 35 TD's and 4500 yards in 2015.
Shhh Britt.....don't bring facts into this clickbait article
Neither of them are playing well though.
I've always been a big fan/supporter of Eli, but I hope we draft a good one come May '19. Eli has been part of the problem the last 3 years, not really sure how any objective observer can claim otherwise. Not getting anywhere near $22.2 Million worth of QB play.
I agree it's time to move on. We aren't getting $22.2M worth of QB play. But we also aren't getting adequate return on our investments in Barkley and Beckham. There's a reason for that.
My biggest concern with the state of the franchise is John Mara felling is things before they happen & can be evaluated.
-He made it clear he wanted Eli back.
-He made it clear Beckham would be extended.
Why are those issues being discussed by him in the media?
What really burns me though is the narrative that Eli has sucked since 2013. Bullshit, the passing game carried the team until McAdoo took over in 16. Since then the offense has sucked. Although Eli looked pretty good in Green Bay that year when the shirtless idiots he was throwing to let him down with drop after drop. But they were showing "passion".
Also, can we stop labeling Engram as a top talent until he produces on a consistent basis. He is hurt now, looks soft to me when he has the ball and drops everything. in sight. I plant him firmly in the overrated category right now.
This will be Eli's last year here, I hope the team can keep him above a winning career win loss record. I also hope the team sucks less so less articles like this will be written. Then everyone will get their wish and see how the shiny new QB works out when he is subjected to the NY media and a Beckham's tantrums when he is not force fed the ball. At least there will be passion.
One final note, want to help Eli, get a below average run game going. This will allow better down and distance and might actually show the league this unit has a pair and can smack some teams in the mouth. Slow down their rush a bit. Now it is always third and forever and they tee off on a pass rush since they are never challenged physically from the pillow soft NYG. I hope they win tonight, but that is my heart, my head expects a two score loss since this team sucks.
Just to add another thought on this post, when has the media EVER thought Eli was good. Remember Assclown Maddog saying Eli will never be accurate above a 60% completion percentage. That douche who never won anything, Boomer Esiason always dogging Eli. Deion Sanders with that phony I believe in Eli. That jealous prick Kurt Warner never giving Eli his due. All the people not wanting to give Eli credit for the SB wins, but for the defense and "The Catch." Eli getting sucked into the whole "Elite" brouhaha when asked the question.
Eli's been shit on his whole career. The media wanting to make this some issue that he's been in decline in these last few years is laughable. HE'S NEVER been given credit by this media, however he just keeps pushing on and when he proves his critics wrong there's always some extenuating circumstance... Oh he had Plax who went up for the ball and didn't need Eli to be accurate, he's got Tiki, he's got a good D behind him, it's only in the playoffs where he shines.
Rocco got it right by saying Eli doesn't need us peons to defend him. He's going to retire a rich man 10 times over and live out a great life, but man would I love to see this guy stick it these media douche bags just one more time. Then I could be happy as a long time Giants fan watching Eli walk off into the sunset.
My biggest concern with the state of the franchise is John Mara felling is things before they happen & can be evaluated.
-He made it clear he wanted Eli back.
-He made it clear Beckham would be extended.
Why are those issues being discussed by him in the media?
Mara said it himself, right? Beckham is a popular player, and I think that matters to Mara. I think Mara is extremely sensitive to the customer service part of running the team, and he ways what the fans want pretty heavily.
The problem with that is that many fans aren't all that bright, or even if they are don't think much past the next season. I think it was Bobby Knight that said, more or less, "If you listen to what the fans want pretty soon you'll be sitting with them."
Beckham was never, ever getting traded. I think Mara sees a bunch of kids and millenials in Beckham throwbacks and it impacts his thinking.
I've always been a big fan/supporter of Eli, but I hope we draft a good one come May '19. Eli has been part of the problem the last 3 years, not really sure how any objective observer can claim otherwise. Not getting anywhere near $22.2 Million worth of QB play.
Funny? According to PFF the Bengals offensive line is ranked 30th in the NFL. Hart has a 56.3 grade which ranks 27th. Hart is still not an NFL caliber player.
Also, Brett Jones is not starting for Minnesota. Do a little research.
That was a big reason why initially I liked the Gettleman hire. I thought it reduced the likelihood of Beckham being here long term. But that hope was quickly dashed in his opening press conference when he mumbled some BS about not giving up on talent. Ugh.
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state that Bobby Hart isn't an NFL tackle, yet is doing just fine on a 3-1 Bengal team. Jones is starting for Minny last I saw also.
I've always been a big fan/supporter of Eli, but I hope we draft a good one come May '19. Eli has been part of the problem the last 3 years, not really sure how any objective observer can claim otherwise. Not getting anywhere near $22.2 Million worth of QB play.
I agree it's time to move on. We aren't getting $22.2M worth of QB play. But we also aren't getting adequate return on our investments in Barkley and Beckham. There's a reason for that.
I get that you hate Beckham, but he literally produced at a level never before seen through the first 3 seasons of his career (obviously was injured last year). With him on a rookie contract, how the hell is that not considered an adequate return on investment? What more did you want him to do?
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I think the day he made the one-handed catch in a losing effort on a 3-9 team when Twitter blew up, he was too valuable in terms of star exposure & sales. Im not so sure Gettleman would have given him the contract though if it was solely up to him.
That was a big reason why initially I liked the Gettleman hire. I thought it reduced the likelihood of Beckham being here long term. But that hope was quickly dashed in his opening press conference when he mumbled some BS about not giving up on talent. Ugh.
The line about not giving up on talent was about Apple and Flowers. Obviously the latter failed even with the clean slate.
Beckham's produced as a top 3 WR since he's been here and only starting next year will has cap hit actually be indicative of that.
People get wrapped up in this Top 3 or Top 5 bullshit...if being on the NFL's top 100 show blows your hair back, that's great. But on Sundays when this team loses and the offense sucks, I don't care about Beckham being a top anything. His stats are irrelevant to me. I know they're not irrelevant to the fans that buy his jersey and follow him on Instagram, and I know Beckham cares because he takes zero ownership of the losses and tells us he is great, but when I waste another three hours watching this team look like shit on Sunday I don't care about Beckham's numbers.
Knock Ranaan all you want, but this is absolutely spot on.
Eh, I get his point re: a player like Vernon. He was overpaid at the time and (partly due to injuries) has failed to even come close to expectations.
But Beckham has been paid far below market value to date. Even taking his salary from last season and spreading it across the first 3 seasons, his production (i.e. top 3 WR) would far exceed his average pay! In other words, his ROI would still be outstanding!
Seriously do appreciate everyone reading and following, regardless of some of the comments in this thread. Enjoy the game tonight.
Looking at Next Gen Stats, Eli is 30th in Intended Yds per Attempt, but he is ahead of Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, Derek Carr, among others. Among the leaders? Ryan Fitzpatrick, Tyrod Taylor, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen.
It isn't a useless stat, but it is BY FAR more dependent on a team's offensive scheme than anything else, unless Jordan is going to argue that NO should move on from Drew Brees.
Last year, Eli finished ahead of Brees and Aaron Rodgers. In 2016, ahead of Tom Brady, Brees, Matt Stafford and Carson Wentz. I'm gonna go with the stat ain't worth much.
People get wrapped up in this Top 3 or Top 5 bullshit...if being on the NFL's top 100 show blows your hair back, that's great. But on Sundays when this team loses and the offense sucks, I don't care about Beckham being a top anything. His stats are irrelevant to me. I know they're not irrelevant to the fans that buy his jersey and follow him on Instagram, and I know Beckham cares because he takes zero ownership of the losses and tells us he is great, but when I waste another three hours watching this team look like shit on Sunday I don't care about Beckham's numbers.
Stats are irrelevant? You think they'd score more points without Beckham? Eli threw 91 TDs from 2014-2016, 35 of those 2 Beckham. That's over 38% of the passing TDs that Beckham scored and it's not like these were 3 yard fades in the end zone. Many of them were highlight reel type plays that only Beckham scores on.
If you want a rough proxy for how this offense would look without Beckham, just look at least season. Eli saw a 15% drop in his passing yards and 27% drop in his TDs! And his yards/attempt (arguably the best indicator of success) was down nearly 9%. But surely Beckham is a detriment to the offense and the team in general.
And FWIW (probably not much to someone that doesn't understand stats), Eli's (projected) yards and yards/attempt have rebounded to above even his 2016 level. Still not good enough to win consistently (though they should be 2-3), but it shows that Beckham's absence was a significant reason for the abysmal numbers last season.
If John Mara thought the pull him at half time to keep his streak going was a good plan he's even more incompetent than I thought which is almost impossible. He's been around Eli for 15 years and he thought Eli or any franchise QB would agree to that? He owns the team he's calling the shots. The Eli era is over. You tell him we're moving on and play the other two guys period. You don't ask him if he's ok with artificially inflating his stats so you don't look bad. What a spineless way to run an organization.
There was nothing wrong with moving on to a new QB last year. I think they should have drafted a QB this year. I think they should release Eli when this year is over. I think they should play Lauletta as soon as they're eliminated from the playoffs this year. But that plan last year got exactly the response it deserved.
To be clear I am not blaming Beckham for our offensive woes.
Resource allocation is directly tied to success on the field. If you don't believe me check out Spotrac's Value Rankings tool. It's just one of many possible tools and perspectives, but it is useful.
The way business is done in the NFL is changing, and the last decade or so has seen the league become something different from what it was. Given the way the Giants have been and are currently performing I don't know how anyone can reach a conclusion other than, "They're doing it wrong."
Link - ( New Window )
Do you recall what happened prior to the 2014 season? Kevin Gilbride and emphasis on deep passing out/Benny with the good hair and west coast background in. Again, all you've done is identify that Eli isn't throwing deep as often as he once did. But anyone who has followed the team knows that this was purposeful. Getting the ball out quickly and attacking horizontally was exactly the hallmark of the offense Macadoo installed. To a large extent, the same is true of Shurmur's offense.
You dismiss certain stats as "surface statistics", but then turn around and slam him for others without providing any explanation as to why they are any more meaningful.
Another question, why are we so easily dismissing the impact poor OL play is having. You acknowledge it, but without any real explanation, determine that can't be the whole explanation. The same OL blocks for Saquon Barkley. The Giants are near last in yards per attempt, yards per game, and rushing TDs. Does this mean Saquon is no good too?
Truth is, right or wrong, Giants believed Eli could still play at a high level, and positioned themselves accordingly.
We ll see if they were right or wrong.
Opinions shared on either side of the Eli question for the most part give legitimate support for their argument, to not acknowkedge both positions have some validity is myopic.
Truth is, right or wrong, Giants believed Eli could still play at a high level, and positioned themselves accordingly.
We ll see if they were right or wrong.
Opinions shared on either side of the Eli question for the most part give legitimate support for their argument, to not acknowkedge both positions have some validity is myopic.
The uncertainty regarding Eli's tenure here and the Barkley pick are as important as the games themselves this year, if not moreso. The next decade is being shaped as we speak.
To be clear I am not blaming Beckham for our offensive woes.
Sure, but until this year (really next season) Beckham's contract has been well below market value. For his average $7.5M per you'd be getting a mid-level OT or Michael Crabtree type WR.
Now, there's merit to whether spending $18M per on a WR going forward is smart cap allocation, but that has nothing to do with your claim that his ROI has been bad.
Truth is, right or wrong, Giants believed Eli could still play at a high level, and positioned themselves accordingly.
That's overly simplistic. It's also possible they weren't confident that any of the QBs would be franchise QBs and were confident that Barkley would be special.
For someone constantly bashing teams for shelling out huge deals to good, not great QBs (Stafford, Garapolo, Cousins, etc) it's amazing that you feel it was QB or bust with the #2 pick.
And I agree that most of these QB deals are completely out of hand.
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Evidence of how popular this topic remains on BBI. Glad to see no one felt the need to condemn the poster with the obligatory "How many times do we need to address this issue", thread, at least I didn t see one.
Truth is, right or wrong, Giants believed Eli could still play at a high level, and positioned themselves accordingly.
We ll see if they were right or wrong.
Opinions shared on either side of the Eli question for the most part give legitimate support for their argument, to not acknowkedge both positions have some validity is myopic.
The uncertainty regarding Eli's tenure here and the Barkley pick are as important as the games themselves this year, if not moreso. The next decade is being shaped as we speak.
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rich so how bad can you feel for him, but I do a bit. He used to be criticized for gun slinging and INT's, now he is the impotent check down artist. He was a stone cold killer on third down making clutch passes in his sleep, now he needs everything to be perfect and on schedule to compete. He was a guy who led by example who has NEVER called out a teammate, now according to these "journalists" he has teammates who never won jack shit crapping on him behind his back. Was it the defense who failed to get the game winning stop last week shitting on him? Was is the ninety five million dollar man who due to his "passion" fucked up a punt return with a mental error that would force punishment laps on a pop warner team? Was it the o line that has Barkley running fucking backwards on most plays? This whole team fucking sucks and I hesitate to call it a team yet as it has no real team strength and always loses.
What really burns me though is the narrative that Eli has sucked since 2013. Bullshit, the passing game carried the team until McAdoo took over in 16. Since then the offense has sucked. Although Eli looked pretty good in Green Bay that year when the shirtless idiots he was throwing to let him down with drop after drop. But they were showing "passion".
Also, can we stop labeling Engram as a top talent until he produces on a consistent basis. He is hurt now, looks soft to me when he has the ball and drops everything. in sight. I plant him firmly in the overrated category right now.
This will be Eli's last year here, I hope the team can keep him above a winning career win loss record. I also hope the team sucks less so less articles like this will be written. Then everyone will get their wish and see how the shiny new QB works out when he is subjected to the NY media and a Beckham's tantrums when he is not force fed the ball. At least there will be passion.
One final note, want to help Eli, get a below average run game going. This will allow better down and distance and might actually show the league this unit has a pair and can smack some teams in the mouth. Slow down their rush a bit. Now it is always third and forever and they tee off on a pass rush since they are never challenged physically from the pillow soft NYG. I hope they win tonight, but that is my heart, my head expects a two score loss since this team sucks.
Just to add another thought on this post, when has the media EVER thought Eli was good. Remember Assclown Maddog saying Eli will never be accurate above a 60% completion percentage. That douche who never won anything, Boomer Esiason always dogging Eli. Deion Sanders with that phony I believe in Eli. That jealous prick Kurt Warner never giving Eli his due. All the people not wanting to give Eli credit for the SB wins, but for the defense and "The Catch." Eli getting sucked into the whole "Elite" brouhaha when asked the question.
Eli's been shit on his whole career. The media wanting to make this some issue that he's been in decline in these last few years is laughable. HE'S NEVER been given credit by this media, however he just keeps pushing on and when he proves his critics wrong there's always some extenuating circumstance... Oh he had Plax who went up for the ball and didn't need Eli to be accurate, he's got Tiki, he's got a good D behind him, it's only in the playoffs where he shines.
Rocco got it right by saying Eli doesn't need us peons to defend him. He's going to retire a rich man 10 times over and live out a great life, but man would I love to see this guy stick it these media douche bags just one more time. Then I could be happy as a long time Giants fan watching Eli walk off into the sunset.
Spot on. Eli got an unfair rap for two reasons I believe (1)what occurred in 2004 at the draft (2) and because Peyton is his brother. He has been scrutinized much more than the other qbs with his career statistics and achievements.
I didn't care about him one way or the other. He was fine when he was local, I guess. But ESPN is national and they are all, without exception, generalists. They do click-bait stories and regurgitate the local beat writers, so there is no real draw to seek out their pieces. This one fired me up, however. Not because of the anti-Manning spin; you see that universally among non-Giants writers and fans and, as you can plainly see here, a cohort of Giants fans. THat's easily ignored as so much wind. But the fabricated insinuation about people being fired because of Manning is outrageous.
Only once has this team won 12 games with Eli as the QB - in 2008. That was clearly the best Giants team of the entire era. The biggest reason for that is that the offensive line was, for much of that year, elite. The Giants were first in the league with 2500 yards rushing, and third in the league in points scored. Our leading receiver was Domenik Hixon with 596 yards.
6th ranked pass blocking OL, and 3 matchup challenges for defenses (80, 82, 88) with a decent TE.
A very good defense when healthy.
2011 team was rather underrated. That they only won 9 regular season games might have to be re-evaluated as to the reason why.
82 was the piece that pushed the Giants to be champion that year. Without him, they do not get past SF nor defeat NE.
Losing 82 to SF the following year did more damage to the Giants than it helped the Niners.
Manning was tough to stop with 3 good WRs back then. Not sure about now.
The Giants' offensive woes/lack of scoring have everything to do with the lack of a decent running game. Unfortunately this problem isn't one that can be solved overnight. If the Giants go into next season with the same OL - which I seriously doubt they will - then it's completely fair to criticize DG as a questionable GM.
But criticizing him for signing OBJ doesn't make sense to me. Let's say the Giants had traded OBJ for two first round picks, and drafted Darnold. What do you think the offense would look like this year or next? They certainly wouldn't be better than they are now. Under your scenario maybe they'd be competitive in 2020.
I don't know where the evidence lies for this. Perhaps people read into Mara's reaction to Manning sitting down last year and conclude that the outrage from the fan base pushed him to hire a GM and coach that would keep Manning around. I would hope those people who see things that way would at the very least admit they are bridging the gap in their argument with their own ideas separate from facts.
It's remotely possible the new GM and coach saw a situation around the am that was severely impacting the quarterback's performance, and if those issues were addressed the qb would cease to be a problem.
He is what he is- a veteran who doesn't move well who needs time to get comfortable and get hot. In a way Ranaan is right- the game isn't about pocket passing anymore and maybe he is right that Eli is a relic from an older style of football. That happens- don't blame Eli for that.
The reality is that Eli, through his career both on and off the field for the last 15 years in Giants blue, has earned the right to play for as long as he wants to and start for the Giants until he physically can't or his contract expires. When we were celebrating those amazing 2 Super Bowls we tacitly signed up for this possible outcome.
If I told you in 2007 that Eli would win those two Super Bowls the way that he did, but we would need to suffer for 3-4 years at the end of his career as he struggled a bit would you have signed up for that?
We as fans are impatient. The NFL is designed for parity and for ebbs and flows of success. We are in a low point following a REALLY high point.
My real fear is something that I see happening with this franchise lately. They are becoming very reactionary to things and straying from their slow and steady approach to success that has quite frankly made them one of the most successful franchises in NFL history.
Eli will play here and start until his contract expires OR he decides that he just doesn't want to play anymore.
Either way, after retirement NFL fans will treat Eli way worse than how he deserves based on his place in NFL history (stats and otherwise), with the exception of Giants fans, who will always love Eli and put him as an upper echelon QB. Eli will be punished like Strahan and become a 2nd ballot Hall of Famer and all will move on. F'n Phillip Rivers is going to be in the hall of fame how could they keep out Eli?
I've always been a big fan/supporter of Eli, but I hope we draft a good one come May '19. Eli has been part of the problem the last 3 years, not really sure how any objective observer can claim otherwise. Not getting anywhere near $22.2 Million worth of QB play.
You think Hart is playing better than Chad Wheeler?
He's long on opinion and short on the knowledge of the game to base it on.
In Texas they call it all hat but no cattle.
The Giants' offensive woes/lack of scoring have everything to do with the lack of a decent running game. Unfortunately this problem isn't one that can be solved overnight. If the Giants go into next season with the same OL - which I seriously doubt they will - then it's completely fair to criticize DG as a questionable GM.
But criticizing him for signing OBJ doesn't make sense to me. Let's say the Giants had traded OBJ for two first round picks, and drafted Darnold. What do you think the offense would look like this year or next? They certainly wouldn't be better than they are now. Under your scenario maybe they'd be competitive in 2020.
Maybe we'll be competitive in 2020 as things stand now. Under the scenario you painted at least the future path would be better laid out.
Reese has been made into a villain here. And while he deserves his fair share of criticism I see what the Giants did with Barkley and Beckham this offseason as being straight out of the Reese playbook...building the offense from the outside in. And the results have been the same: two players that are pretty to look at but who end up losing.
We are 1-4 on the heels of several bad seasons with one mirage thrown in. Whatever we're doing isn't the way to do things.
Good post, TLG, I agree with all of your points, and share your concerns about the direction of the organization. I like DG, but ownership's reliance on people from within the org will bite them in the ass eventually.
Reese got his share of credit where it was due - "In Reese We Trust", and he's taken on the criticism he deserves for several years of poor, if not downright awful drafts.
I don't see us building from the outside in intentionally - it was a necessity from the roster Gettleman inherited. and even then, he's completely revamped the OL.
He's put stock in Beckham and Barkley with the eye to make the trenches a strength - but that is easier said than done, but he's already tried more in one offseason than Reese ever did.
What I see Gettleman's philosophy here being is what is was in Carolina. Focus on skill positions and surround them with strong lines (the much balleyhooed Hog Mollies). That's why I don't get the comment he's a yes man or cherry picked to continue the Manning legacy. He's basically done here what he did before - cleared out the malcontents and look towards building the trenches.
He got rid of Steve Smith and Josh Norman because their attitudes were poor. He got rid of DeAngelo Williams because they had two similar RB's making a lot of money. He supported Cam with an OL and built the D around the front 7. His philosophy on DB's and WR's was to draft one or two every year to see what stuck.
I think he'll do the same here - and he's already weeded out a lot of dead weight. The results aren't great yet, but don't confuse teh results with the intent - and that's exactly what I see being done. People think there's no plan, mainly because there didn't seem to be one with Reese and then McAdoo.
And rebuilding the OL is indeed easier said than done. That's especially true when prime resources are being spent at RB and WR.
Only once has this team won 12 games with Eli as the QB - in 2008. That was clearly the best Giants team of the entire era. The biggest reason for that is that the offensive line was, for much of that year, elite. The Giants were first in the league with 2500 yards rushing, and third in the league in points scored. Our leading receiver was Domenik Hixon with 596 yards.
That team should have been the model...certainly on offense. Instead we have continued to build from the outside in by investing massive resources where we shouldn't. Think about what we have invested in Barkley, Beckham, Engram, and Shepard while spending years with the likes of Bobby Hart, John Jerry, Brett Jones, DJ Fluker, etc. protecting our quarterback.
A shiny house built on a foundation of sand.
You are conveniently forgetting what they spent (cash and picks) on Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, Solder, and Omameh.
The Giants have tried and spent on the OL -- they've just sucked at it. They have been cheap nor have they ignored it.
As much as you might hate the people, the Giants have actually been really good at finding skill position players.
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state that Bobby Hart isn't an NFL tackle, yet is doing just fine on a 3-1 Bengal team. Jones is starting for Minny last I saw also.
I've always been a big fan/supporter of Eli, but I hope we draft a good one come May '19. Eli has been part of the problem the last 3 years, not really sure how any objective observer can claim otherwise. Not getting anywhere near $22.2 Million worth of QB play.
You think Hart is playing better than Chad Wheeler?
Bobby Hart is still the exact same Bobby Hart. He almost single-handedly lost the Bengals a game in Atlanta. (A replay review overturned a Dalton fumble that would've ended the game after Hart's man blew past him one play after he also committed a false start.) The difference is thst Hart's shakiness doesn't seem to keep the offense from functioning. With the Giants, one guy screwing up (regardless of position) seems to grind the entire offense to a halt.
You are conveniently forgetting what they spent (cash and picks) on Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, Solder, and Omameh.
The Giants have tried and spent on the OL -- they've just sucked at it. They have been cheap nor have they ignored it.
Stop with those pesky facts. Let people continue with their narrative that Reese ignored the OL to spend draft picks on pretty WRs.
Go Terps : 2:37 pm : link : reply
Beckham's own words last week sounded like the definition of a malcontent despite Gettleman giving him a massive contract.
And rebuilding the OL is indeed easier said than done. That's especially true when prime resources are being spent at RB and WR.
By malcontents, I mean bad teammates. Beckham wants to win. Gettleman wants players who want to win. Steve Smith broke not one, but two teammates jaws. One in the film room and one on the practice field. He was a terrible teammate. Josh Norman went after Cam in practice and put himself above the team. He was a bad teammate.
say what you want about Beckham, but by all accounts he is an excellent teammate and has passion. You can argue too much at times, but he's not a bad teammate.
That's a key distinction.
And it's not just the resource allocation...it's the failure to recognize we are bad at scouting OL and doubling up on that failure by being unable to rectify the problem.
2010
JPP (7)
Linval Joseph (8)
Chad Jones
Phillip Dillard
Mitch Petrus
Adrian Tracy
Matt Dodge (1 - unfortunately)
2011
Prince Amukamara (7)
Marvin Austin
Jerrel Jernigan
James Brewer
Greg Jones
Tyler Sash
Jacquian Williams (1)
Da'Rel Scott
2012
David Wilson
Reuben Randle (2)
Jayron Hosley
Adrien Robinson
Brandon Mosley
Matt McCants
Markus Kuhn
2013
Justin Pugh (5)
Johnathan Hankins (5)
Damontre Moore
Ryan Nassib
Cooper Taylor
Eric Herman
Michael Cox
2014
Odell Beckham (4+)
Weston Richburg (4)
Jay Bromley
Andre Williams
Nat Berhe
Devon Kennard (4) - arguably the best value pick over this period
Bennett Jackson
2015 - note that we have one player remaining from this draft and they are still no their rookie deals!
Ereck Flowers (3 + 3 games)
Landon Collins (3+)
Owamagbe Odighizuwa
Mykkele Thompson
Geremy Davis
Bobby Hart (2)
2016
Eli Apple (2+)
Sterling Shepard (2+)
Darian Thompson (1)
BJ Goodson (1+)
Paul Perkins
Jerell Adams
2017
Evan Engram (1+)
Dalvin Tomlinson (1+)
Davis Webb
Wayne Gallman
Avery Moss
Adam Bisnowaty
And for reference I linked an article with some stats on draft successes, which is simply defined as a player becoming a consistent starter, though it's pretty clear that Reese was beyond awful in rds 3-7. The only successes over eight drafts are Kennard (great pick), Hart (purely looking at 'starts'), and maybe Goodson/Gallman (too early).
Link - ( New Window )
And it's not just the resource allocation...it's the failure to recognize we are bad at scouting OL and doubling up on that failure by being unable to rectify the problem.
How did we double up on that failure? Gettleman was the pro personnel director that helped bring in (scout) the FA OL that were part of the last good Giants OL. I guess you can give him some blame for Baas (not really DGs fault he couldn't stay healthy), but DG didn't draft Pugh, Richburg, Hart, Flowers, etc or sign Schwartz, Jerry, etc.
a) You have an ax to grind against the player himself
b) You think players are lying about how great he is in the locker room, for young players, etc.
He was never getting traded. Ever.
Another story made up by the media. And gobbled right up like always.
It was never happening.
And it's not just the resource allocation...it's the failure to recognize we are bad at scouting OL and doubling up on that failure by being unable to rectify the problem.
Sure - the team has been dreadful at scouting and identifying O-line talent.
But there is no logical connection between investing in the skill positions as causal. A good team has to do both.
Taking the money allocated to Beckham who is actually good at his job and a position the team has had success scouting, isn't going to make the offensive line better if the result is a player like Omameh or Solder.
It starts tonight .
there are no world beaters in front of us .
Get behind the Team and see what happens
a Win tonight would do wonders .
Long rest until Monday Night vs the 1-4 Falcons
You ve got the wrong fellow
joe48 : 3:22 pm : link : reply
To play Eli this year. That was a job requirement for both GM and coach. I also dont think Gettleman gave OBJ a $90M contract. This was all decided by ownership. Most likely John Mara. After all it is his and Tischs money
There's nothing to support this, yet people speak as it being a factual requirement for Gettleman and Shurmur to have to keep Eli.
Truly moronic on many levels.
You ve got the wrong fellow
First part of my post was to you. 2nd part was for Go Terps. Sorry it wasn't clear.
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I dont believe that it was Gettlemans decision
joe48 : 3:22 pm : link : reply
To play Eli this year. That was a job requirement for both GM and coach. I also dont think Gettleman gave OBJ a $90M contract. This was all decided by ownership. Most likely John Mara. After all it is his and Tischs money
There's nothing to support this, yet people speak as it being a factual requirement for Gettleman and Shurmur to have to keep Eli.
Truly moronic on many levels.
The certainty with which these people discuss these idiotic theories is truly alarming.
Maybe he did watch more than last year's Eagles game...
He is what he is- a veteran who doesn't move well who needs time to get comfortable and get hot. In a way Ranaan is right- the game isn't about pocket passing anymore and maybe he is right that Eli is a relic from an older style of football. That happens- don't blame Eli for that.
The reality is that Eli, through his career both on and off the field for the last 15 years in Giants blue, has earned the right to play for as long as he wants to and start for the Giants until he physically can't or his contract expires. When we were celebrating those amazing 2 Super Bowls we tacitly signed up for this possible outcome.
If I told you in 2007 that Eli would win those two Super Bowls the way that he did, but we would need to suffer for 3-4 years at the end of his career as he struggled a bit would you have signed up for that?
We as fans are impatient. The NFL is designed for parity and for ebbs and flows of success. We are in a low point following a REALLY high point.
My real fear is something that I see happening with this franchise lately. They are becoming very reactionary to things and straying from their slow and steady approach to success that has quite frankly made them one of the most successful franchises in NFL history.
Eli will play here and start until his contract expires OR he decides that he just doesn't want to play anymore.
Either way, after retirement NFL fans will treat Eli way worse than how he deserves based on his place in NFL history (stats and otherwise), with the exception of Giants fans, who will always love Eli and put him as an upper echelon QB. Eli will be punished like Strahan and become a 2nd ballot Hall of Famer and all will move on. F'n Phillip Rivers is going to be in the hall of fame how could they keep out Eli?
Limerick FTW.
Then you need to rewatch 2011 because Eli was sensational that year. The Giants had the worst running game, a terrible declining offensive line, and 31st ranked defense. Eli single handedly got them into the playoffs and he continued to dominate in the playoffs. He took a beating in the NFC championship game versus SF but kept getting up.
I completely believe that Gettleman and Shurmur were hired because they bought into that line of thinking.
All things end badly otherwise they wouldnt end. It is ending badly with Eli, thats unavoidable, but hopefully management understands this is the last year.
Eli looked OK to me, he still throws a lot of high balls to his receivers. Cant figure out why he cant keep them down
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needed a wake up call and Beckham gave it to him...who knows. But he looked like the Eli we know last week. Hopefully it continues.
Eli looked OK to me, he still throws a lot of high balls to his receivers. Cant figure out why he cant keep them down
A critique of him even in college was that missed high. One thing to always consider when a qb throws high is to consider the position of the coverage, which includes underneath defenders.
Maybe he did watch more than last year's Eagles game...
Not that it matters, but technically at the moment the Giants hold the #1 pick in the 2019 NFL Draft.
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season certainly has hurt DG's chances to pick high again in the next draft.
Maybe he did watch more than last year's Eagles game...
Not that it matters, but technically at the moment the Giants hold the #1 pick in the 2019 NFL Draft.
sarcasm...
I completely believe that Gettleman and Shurmur were hired because they bought into that line of thinking.
All things end badly otherwise they wouldnt end. It is ending badly with Eli, thats unavoidable, but hopefully management understands this is the last year.
Unless you have evidence, theres nothing separating what you believe from the kids at the mall asking Santa for gifts.
This year he seems much improved. To be fair, I think his improvements there began before this year but this year it's been evident to me that he is much, much improved in that aspect of his game.
- Here is the reality (in my opinion of course)
- The rebuild already started, per the logic of FMIC
- They know its over with Eli, but it made more sense to ride him for 1 more year.
- People mentioned the firing of Gettleman and Shurmur in other posts. It is not happening. For better or worse, they will be shown a lot of patience (i think this is good)
I think they want to build this roster up a considerable amount and then get a franchise guy - it'll increase the chances of hitting - he won't need to be paid for a few years
Of course he is eroding the guy has played in the NFL for 15 years and he has taken some licks over the years. It is ok, his career was bound to end. He helped win us 2 super bowls against the leagues greatest dynasty ever. That is AWESOME.
After years of mediocrity, the last thing this organization wanted to do was announce it expected a few more years of mediocrity. That makes no sense. Maybe i am wrong. Would not be a shock. To me, looking at the moves they have made...we've begun the purge. Good. It was needed.
The guy is a PoS fucking hack who is the epitome of "Fake News". All he cares about is clicks