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| In recent years, some individuals inside the organization have believed that Manning is holding the team back. Most have since been fired. |
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| Some thought Manning was the problem as far back as four or five years ago, according to sources with knowledge of the Giants’ thinking. |
I get that some of these players were cleared out because of chemistry and sometimes guys need a change of scenery to perform, but that doesn't change the fact that the team had and still has talent. They're flawed, without a doubt, but they shouldn't look this frikkin bad.
And here we are - after drafting Hernandez and paying Solder and Omameh - and we're still talking about how putrid the OL is. After we drafted a highly touted RB. There's been no incremental improvement, and the only solace seems to be 'well, we'll have another high draft pick next year'.
That's bad reporting/journalism.
Manning's stats, other than TDs, are actually quite good this year. Some of that is via checkdowns, but in the Jax/Tex/Car games he played quite well.
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Outside of the OL, how many of those changes were to starters?
On O, we have 6.
So 50% of our starters are different.
Stop gap my ass.
You're right, I forgot about how essential to building the future of this team it was to dump Darian Thompson for Curtis Riley and the addition of BW Webb. Those guys are definitely building blocks.
Reality is, I thought we would need considerable fortune and health and the bounces to go our way to win 7 games in 2018. In that vein, I suppose my moderate expectations have kept me from getting bent about this team.
Also expected to need 2-3 offseaons to get the talent level of the roster up to where they should be a winner. Signing Solder, drafting SB, etc didn't change my mind about their chances or strategy in 2018.
Whatever they believed, the reckoning is here and it will force more changes, and they're needed.
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is doing this thing now where he dissects every single Eli throw as if to say that he knows what Eli's reads are. If you did that with every QB in the league, you'd probably have a lot of results that look the same...I'm sure a guy is open on every single play, but since when does that mean that he is going to automatically throw it to him? "OMG Beckham was open deep! look!" Yeah well you aren't factoring that in about less than 1 second Eli is going to get destroyed by the linebacker coming around the edge.
You can usually figure out where the throw is supposed to go based on the coverage package. For the first few games, Eli was going to his checkdowns before allowing the deeper patterns to develop, even when not pressured. That isn't even arguable. Now there may have been other explanations for it, my guess is that Eli was still getting acclimated to Shurmer's system, but we shouldn't ignore that the problem exists.
I think something that may being missed is this. Even when the defense is in the right coverage to take away what you're doing on offense you still need to at times challenge the defense to do their job correctly. The offense is looking for a deeper route, the defense is in cover 4, well the defenders still need to execute their coverage assignments correctly. The qb would need to hold on to the ball a bit longer or buy some time to challenge the defense to stay with their call, now holding the ball behind this line hasn't been something any qb would want to do, so checking it down to what the coverage gives you becomes the habit.
As for Manning not wanting to get sacked, it has very little to do with the physical part of being sacked and much more about not wanting to set an offense back with a negative play, especially an offense that hasn't been operating with much confidence.
Good grief.......horrid.
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Darnold/Rosen - ( New Window )
He's basically done nothing but be a yes man, even if he cut the starting RT a couple days after taking over. traded JPP, parted ways with DRC and Flowers and provided the new coach with an entirely different OL.
it's all just part of the plan to have Eli hold the franchise hostage as Mara cares more about Eli's legacy than the team. Wasn't that apparent when we drafted Barkley, a guy who wouldn't go in the top 300 NFL players in a fantasy redraft of all current rosters?
We may have turned over 60% of the roster, but those guys are just scrubs, including the 50% starters we changed. It is all smoke and mirrors - Gettleman is a yes man, shurmur is his lackey and they all carry out the wishes of Mara.
Look, it doesn't take a lot of effort to write a steaming pile of shit like that - yet for some reason, some of you fucking lunatics actually think that's the case here. So much so that nearly each and every post borne out of frustration sounds like mad rantings about a conspiracy theory that has little root in reality, but because of a 1-4 record, it emboldens the masses.
And while you may quibble with this word and find it repetitive, it is ponderous. Fucking ponderous.
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Easier to shoot the messenger than to deal with the substance.
Newsflash. Eli is old and isnt as good as he once was. But when that is the basis of every article you write so you can fit in at ESPN is disgraceful.
I would ask Ranaan why we havent been able to run the ball in 8 years - or why our defense cant make a stop in 4th quarters.... but that would take knowledge and some reseach. Something Ranaan sucks donkey balls at.
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Reality is, I thought we would need considerable fortune and health and the bounces to go our way to win 7 games in 2018. In that vein, I suppose my moderate expectations have kept me from getting bent about this team.
Also expected to need 2-3 offseaons to get the talent level of the roster up to where they should be a winner. Signing Solder, drafting SB, etc didn't change my mind about their chances or strategy in 2018.
Whatever they believed, the reckoning is here and it will force more changes, and they're needed.
It's hard to believe that the timeline is so extensive. Save for the Browns, that doesn't seem to be the case very often in the NFL.
And I was one who had managed expectations coming in. I didn't think they'd go past 6 wins. In part because I thought the roster was flawed, and in part because I didn't have faith in the management changes. But for a team that managed to win 11 games 2 years ago to finish 3-13 last season with a slew of injuries and some malcontents to shed some of those problematic players, get a draft of high picks, sign a couple of FAs and get players back healthy to open up 1-4 is alarming.
Why anyone makes any reference to him or Pat Leonard is scary.
Flowers best play as a Giant
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Of course it's Eli's fault we cant run the ball, why would you have an original thought for once?
Plus I didnt know a cover 2 was a run stopping defense? I mean 2 deep safeties means less people in the box which means it should be EASIER to run the ball. But it's easier for you jsut to blame Eli.
Research is your friend. In-depth thinking.... is not.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
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In comment 14118784 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Your incorrect snarkiness aside, you can "what if" something to death. Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . .
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In comment 14118694 jeff57 said:
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Easier to shoot the messenger than to deal with the substance.
Newsflash. Eli is old and isnt as good as he once was. But when that is the basis of every article you write so you can fit in at ESPN is disgraceful.
I would ask Ranaan why we havent been able to run the ball in 8 years - or why our defense cant make a stop in 4th quarters.... but that would take knowledge and some reseach. Something Ranaan sucks donkey balls at.
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Cover 2 typically means two deep safeties, which usually means 7 in the box.
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In comment 14118818 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14118784 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Your incorrect snarkiness aside, you can "what if" something to death. Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . .
That's horseshit. Complete horseshit and you know it.
And you know I'm right. I've seen your posts. Clarence Thomas says more on the Supreme Court than you do in any of your posts.
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Cover 2 typically means two deep safeties, which usually means 7 in the box.
Do not burden him with facts and concepts of football. It may diverge him from saying something other than its Eli's fault.
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That is one of the biggest pitfalls around here, deciding something is fact before time allows for the true answer.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
Your assumption about My post isn't correct I don't think. What do you think I'm defending?
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Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Cover 2 typically means two deep safeties, which usually means 7 in the box.
Do not burden him with facts and concepts of football. It may diverge him from saying something other than its Eli's fault.
I'll send him an invoice💰 later, it's all good ðŸ‘
there is one constant
Eli Manning
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In comment 14118831 crick n NC said:
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That is one of the biggest pitfalls around here, deciding something is fact before time allows for the true answer.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
Your assumption about My post isn't correct I don't think. What do you think I'm defending?
From my interpretation, I thought you were implying that my thinking pattern is that Darnold and Rosen will most certainly not be franchise QBs as if it is written in stone.
there is one constant
Eli Manning
Common denominator thinking has it's place, but there certainly are a lot of moving parts on the field.
there is one constant
Eli Manning
Actually there have been a lot of constants.
OBJ has been a constant on the team
Poor OLs have been constant
Inconsistent run game
Bad Special teams
Questionable coachign decisions
Sans 2016, bad defense
But go ahead...
why does this get repeated ad nauseum?
The poor OL play has been another constant, as has ignoring the LB position.
The new regime has already made inroads in those areas.
And strictly speaking, the ownership is the same too.
There have been a lot of constants - but if you want to shit on Eli - you ignore the rest. It is what people do around here.
Then after that, one particular poster is saying he needs to "delete this ****"....
Hmmm why are some of you so controlling? In fact its showing me and everyone else here how controlling your behavior is.
Who are you to tell what others can and cannot post here?
He's basically done nothing but be a yes man, even if he cut the starting RT a couple days after taking over. traded JPP, parted ways with DRC and Flowers and provided the new coach with an entirely different OL.
it's all just part of the plan to have Eli hold the franchise hostage as Mara cares more about Eli's legacy than the team. Wasn't that apparent when we drafted Barkley, a guy who wouldn't go in the top 300 NFL players in a fantasy redraft of all current rosters?
We may have turned over 60% of the roster, but those guys are just scrubs, including the 50% starters we changed. It is all smoke and mirrors - Gettleman is a yes man, shurmur is his lackey and they all carry out the wishes of Mara.
Look, it doesn't take a lot of effort to write a steaming pile of shit like that - yet for some reason, some of you fucking lunatics actually think that's the case here. So much so that nearly each and every post borne out of frustration sounds like mad rantings about a conspiracy theory that has little root in reality, but because of a 1-4 record, it emboldens the masses.
And while you may quibble with this word and find it repetitive, it is ponderous. Fucking ponderous.
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In comment 14118835 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118831 crick n NC said:
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That is one of the biggest pitfalls around here, deciding something is fact before time allows for the true answer.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
Your assumption about My post isn't correct I don't think. What do you think I'm defending?
From my interpretation, I thought you were implying that my thinking pattern is that Darnold and Rosen will most certainly not be franchise QBs as if it is written in stone.
No sir, a lot of fans treated this qb crop as can't miss franchise qbs even if they didn't say it directly, and those types of comments are still popular on account of the ugly mood some have around here for not taking a st as if it's extremely unlikely the giants will get another shot at one instead of focusing on the building block the team got this past draft (Barkley)
"New defensive coordinator James Bettcher is likely to bring a 3-4 heavy defense to New York, which is not a fit for how JPP rushes. He's a traditional 4-3 end."
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In comment 14118823 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118818 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14118784 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Your incorrect snarkiness aside, you can "what if" something to death. Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . .
That's horseshit. Complete horseshit and you know it.
And you know I'm right. I've seen your posts. Clarence Thomas says more on the Supreme Court than you do in any of your posts.
LOL. Now, them's fighting words. Anyway, someone can write paragraph after paragraph, and say nothing.
What's horseshit? Following your argument to its logical conclusion?
Then after that, one particular poster is saying he needs to "delete this ****"....
Hmmm why are some of you so controlling? In fact its showing me and everyone else here how controlling your behavior is.
Who are you to tell what others can and cannot post here?
Go away. We proved the article was factually wrong and was written to spark controversy from a shitty writer and source.
Again, go away.
Then after that, one particular poster is saying he needs to "delete this ****"....
Hmmm why are some of you so controlling? In fact its showing me and everyone else here how controlling your behavior is.
Who are you to tell what others can and cannot post here?
My thing with Jeff is that he's a bad poster. 'Tis all. Take it from someone who has looked like a jackass on many occasions, he doesn't want to be known as the guy who thinks his word is gospel. If much smarter football minds like B in ALB and Fat Man can be loquacious and not give one-sentence answers, Jeff can too.
Just guessing...
rinse...repeat
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I get it, it's ugly and hard to sit through another shitter given how precious football season is to us.
Reality is, I thought we would need considerable fortune and health and the bounces to go our way to win 7 games in 2018. In that vein, I suppose my moderate expectations have kept me from getting bent about this team.
Also expected to need 2-3 offseaons to get the talent level of the roster up to where they should be a winner. Signing Solder, drafting SB, etc didn't change my mind about their chances or strategy in 2018.
Whatever they believed, the reckoning is here and it will force more changes, and they're needed.
It's hard to believe that the timeline is so extensive. Save for the Browns, that doesn't seem to be the case very often in the NFL.
And I was one who had managed expectations coming in. I didn't think they'd go past 6 wins. In part because I thought the roster was flawed, and in part because I didn't have faith in the management changes. But for a team that managed to win 11 games 2 years ago to finish 3-13 last season with a slew of injuries and some malcontents to shed some of those problematic players, get a draft of high picks, sign a couple of FAs and get players back healthy to open up 1-4 is alarming.
The poor drafting is killing them and is really visible now. The roster is a somewhat top heavy and lacking in depth. They're still deficient on the OL and the pass rush (which I really warned the forum about), thin in the secondary, etc.
Factor in the system changes, youth, new coaches, and more than 50% roster turnover and we're faced with a lot of moving parts to pull together. Let's see what the next 11 games delivers.
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In comment 14118699 dep026 said:
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Of course it's Eli's fault we cant run the ball, why would you have an original thought for once?
Plus I didnt know a cover 2 was a run stopping defense? I mean 2 deep safeties means less people in the box which means it should be EASIER to run the ball. But it's easier for you jsut to blame Eli.
Research is your friend. In-depth thinking.... is not.
I did my research and found numerous sources saying Cover 2 was a very effective scheme against the run.
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In comment 14118844 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14118835 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118831 crick n NC said:
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That is one of the biggest pitfalls around here, deciding something is fact before time allows for the true answer.
HUH?? What the hell are you talking about?
So the Giants should invest the #2 OVERALL pick in Darnold or Rosen even though they may not believe in them because they MIGHT be the answer?
Pitfall my ass. If I'm picking that high, I want to make sure I'm in love with the prospect.
Your assumption about My post isn't correct I don't think. What do you think I'm defending?
From my interpretation, I thought you were implying that my thinking pattern is that Darnold and Rosen will most certainly not be franchise QBs as if it is written in stone.
No sir, a lot of fans treated this qb crop as can't miss franchise qbs even if they didn't say it directly, and those types of comments are still popular on account of the ugly mood some have around here for not taking a st as if it's extremely unlikely the giants will get another shot at one instead of focusing on the building block the team got this past draft (Barkley)
You're right. And they're not. None of the QBs have looked particularly good. Actually, Sam Darnold has looked better than I thought, but still not great. And I'm not going to pile on them because the kids are rookie and it would be hypocritical of me to do so, but the same concerns I had before the Draft are still present, i.e. Darnold turning the ball over; Rosen's long-term longevity and Allen's accuracy being erratic.
I did my research and found numerous sources saying Cover 2 was a very effective scheme against the run.
ok....
We’ve had mostly crappy years since SB XLVI. You also know what? We’ve been to 3 SBs this millenium, winning two. Who, besides the Pats and the Steelers can say that? WHO ELSE CAN SAY THAT?
Be thankful that we’ve had such joy, the likes of which has only been shared (as often) by two other teams in nearly 20 years.
So we have sucked for longer than we’d like. Be fucking thankful and grow a pair. There is that light at the end of the current tunnel and it’s not an oncoming train.
It's not a run stopping defense, it's a defense that tends to indicate your front seven is stopping the run without the safety up in the box as an extra.
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In comment 14118837 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14118823 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118818 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14118784 Anakim said:
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In comment 14118773 B in ALB said:
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Ranaans got all your panties in a twist just for clicks. The guy is a toilet stain, yet here we are.
Sucks that we've lost the Mike G's and Neil Bests of the world and we're stuck with the shit we have now.
Here's a tip, Jeff: it doesn't make you look smart when you're that terse. You don't have the clout for BBI to take your word as gospel. It makes you look like a lazy know-it-all. I'm not asking you to be verbose, but you look like a complete jackass with your 6-word posts.
The facts and stats speak for themselves. The Giants offense needs a younger, more mobile QB. Eli still can put together some nice drives, but he's like a pitcher whose lost his fastball and is relying on cunning and junk to get by. It was a mistake not to make a clean break after last season and draft Darnold or Rosen. Maybe they'll make up for it after this season, but they need to move on.
Congratulations. That's the longest post you've ever written. I'm sure you can acknowledge that.
And what if Darnold and Rosen fall flat on their faces? What if they don't last more than 5 years in the league?
Your incorrect snarkiness aside, you can "what if" something to death. Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . .
That's horseshit. Complete horseshit and you know it.
And you know I'm right. I've seen your posts. Clarence Thomas says more on the Supreme Court than you do in any of your posts.
LOL. Now, them's fighting words. Anyway, someone can write paragraph after paragraph, and say nothing.
What's horseshit? Following your argument to its logical conclusion?
"Don't ever draft a QB in the first round again because what if . . . "
Uh, no. Newsflash: some QBs are better prospects than others. Andrew Luck may not have been a perfect prospect, but he was as well-rounded coming out of Stanford as they come and was worthy of the #1 pick. Somewhat similarly, I think (and have documented for a while now) that Justin Herbert is not only a better prospect than Allen, Rosen and Darnold, but will end up with a better career than all of them as well. So yes, barring something unforeseen, if Justin Herbert is around where we pick, I would take him.
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In comment 14118827 oldutican said:
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In comment 14118699 dep026 said:
Maybe some of why the running is so bad is because Eli can't beat the cover 2.
Of course it's Eli's fault we cant run the ball, why would you have an original thought for once?
Plus I didnt know a cover 2 was a run stopping defense? I mean 2 deep safeties means less people in the box which means it should be EASIER to run the ball. But it's easier for you jsut to blame Eli.
Research is your friend. In-depth thinking.... is not.
I did my research and found numerous sources saying Cover 2 was a very effective scheme against the run.
It's not that it can't be, in fact cover 2 (whether zone or man) would be a very good choice to defend a team who is having problems getting the ball down the field.
Manning can get the ball down the field, the OL hasn't allowed for much of that, but teams also know the giants have legit speed to beat them deep, put two safeties back to defend against Odell, let the giants OL struggle continue to struggle with run blocking until proven otherwise.