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In recent years, some individuals inside the organization have believed that Manning is holding the team back. Most have since been fired. |
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Some thought Manning was the problem as far back as four or five years ago, according to sources with knowledge of the Giants thinking. |
Eh, I get his point re: a player like Vernon. He was overpaid at the time and (partly due to injuries) has failed to even come close to expectations.
But Beckham has been paid far below market value to date. Even taking his salary from last season and spreading it across the first 3 seasons, his production (i.e. top 3 WR) would far exceed his average pay! In other words, his ROI would still be outstanding!
Seriously do appreciate everyone reading and following, regardless of some of the comments in this thread. Enjoy the game tonight.
Looking at Next Gen Stats, Eli is 30th in Intended Yds per Attempt, but he is ahead of Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, Derek Carr, among others. Among the leaders? Ryan Fitzpatrick, Tyrod Taylor, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen.
It isn't a useless stat, but it is BY FAR more dependent on a team's offensive scheme than anything else, unless Jordan is going to argue that NO should move on from Drew Brees.
Last year, Eli finished ahead of Brees and Aaron Rodgers. In 2016, ahead of Tom Brady, Brees, Matt Stafford and Carson Wentz. I'm gonna go with the stat ain't worth much.
People get wrapped up in this Top 3 or Top 5 bullshit...if being on the NFL's top 100 show blows your hair back, that's great. But on Sundays when this team loses and the offense sucks, I don't care about Beckham being a top anything. His stats are irrelevant to me. I know they're not irrelevant to the fans that buy his jersey and follow him on Instagram, and I know Beckham cares because he takes zero ownership of the losses and tells us he is great, but when I waste another three hours watching this team look like shit on Sunday I don't care about Beckham's numbers.
Stats are irrelevant? You think they'd score more points without Beckham? Eli threw 91 TDs from 2014-2016, 35 of those 2 Beckham. That's over 38% of the passing TDs that Beckham scored and it's not like these were 3 yard fades in the end zone. Many of them were highlight reel type plays that only Beckham scores on.
If you want a rough proxy for how this offense would look without Beckham, just look at least season. Eli saw a 15% drop in his passing yards and 27% drop in his TDs! And his yards/attempt (arguably the best indicator of success) was down nearly 9%. But surely Beckham is a detriment to the offense and the team in general.
And FWIW (probably not much to someone that doesn't understand stats), Eli's (projected) yards and yards/attempt have rebounded to above even his 2016 level. Still not good enough to win consistently (though they should be 2-3), but it shows that Beckham's absence was a significant reason for the abysmal numbers last season.
If John Mara thought the pull him at half time to keep his streak going was a good plan he's even more incompetent than I thought which is almost impossible. He's been around Eli for 15 years and he thought Eli or any franchise QB would agree to that? He owns the team he's calling the shots. The Eli era is over. You tell him we're moving on and play the other two guys period. You don't ask him if he's ok with artificially inflating his stats so you don't look bad. What a spineless way to run an organization.
There was nothing wrong with moving on to a new QB last year. I think they should have drafted a QB this year. I think they should release Eli when this year is over. I think they should play Lauletta as soon as they're eliminated from the playoffs this year. But that plan last year got exactly the response it deserved.
To be clear I am not blaming Beckham for our offensive woes.
Resource allocation is directly tied to success on the field. If you don't believe me check out Spotrac's Value Rankings tool. It's just one of many possible tools and perspectives, but it is useful.
The way business is done in the NFL is changing, and the last decade or so has seen the league become something different from what it was. Given the way the Giants have been and are currently performing I don't know how anyone can reach a conclusion other than, "They're doing it wrong."
Link - ( New Window )
Do you recall what happened prior to the 2014 season? Kevin Gilbride and emphasis on deep passing out/Benny with the good hair and west coast background in. Again, all you've done is identify that Eli isn't throwing deep as often as he once did. But anyone who has followed the team knows that this was purposeful. Getting the ball out quickly and attacking horizontally was exactly the hallmark of the offense Macadoo installed. To a large extent, the same is true of Shurmur's offense.
You dismiss certain stats as "surface statistics", but then turn around and slam him for others without providing any explanation as to why they are any more meaningful.
Another question, why are we so easily dismissing the impact poor OL play is having. You acknowledge it, but without any real explanation, determine that can't be the whole explanation. The same OL blocks for Saquon Barkley. The Giants are near last in yards per attempt, yards per game, and rushing TDs. Does this mean Saquon is no good too?
Truth is, right or wrong, Giants believed Eli could still play at a high level, and positioned themselves accordingly.
We ll see if they were right or wrong.
Opinions shared on either side of the Eli question for the most part give legitimate support for their argument, to not acknowkedge both positions have some validity is myopic.
Truth is, right or wrong, Giants believed Eli could still play at a high level, and positioned themselves accordingly.
We ll see if they were right or wrong.
Opinions shared on either side of the Eli question for the most part give legitimate support for their argument, to not acknowkedge both positions have some validity is myopic.
The uncertainty regarding Eli's tenure here and the Barkley pick are as important as the games themselves this year, if not moreso. The next decade is being shaped as we speak.
To be clear I am not blaming Beckham for our offensive woes.
Sure, but until this year (really next season) Beckham's contract has been well below market value. For his average $7.5M per you'd be getting a mid-level OT or Michael Crabtree type WR.
Now, there's merit to whether spending $18M per on a WR going forward is smart cap allocation, but that has nothing to do with your claim that his ROI has been bad.
Truth is, right or wrong, Giants believed Eli could still play at a high level, and positioned themselves accordingly.
That's overly simplistic. It's also possible they weren't confident that any of the QBs would be franchise QBs and were confident that Barkley would be special.
For someone constantly bashing teams for shelling out huge deals to good, not great QBs (Stafford, Garapolo, Cousins, etc) it's amazing that you feel it was QB or bust with the #2 pick.
And I agree that most of these QB deals are completely out of hand.
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Evidence of how popular this topic remains on BBI. Glad to see no one felt the need to condemn the poster with the obligatory "How many times do we need to address this issue", thread, at least I didn t see one.
Truth is, right or wrong, Giants believed Eli could still play at a high level, and positioned themselves accordingly.
We ll see if they were right or wrong.
Opinions shared on either side of the Eli question for the most part give legitimate support for their argument, to not acknowkedge both positions have some validity is myopic.
The uncertainty regarding Eli's tenure here and the Barkley pick are as important as the games themselves this year, if not moreso. The next decade is being shaped as we speak.
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rich so how bad can you feel for him, but I do a bit. He used to be criticized for gun slinging and INT's, now he is the impotent check down artist. He was a stone cold killer on third down making clutch passes in his sleep, now he needs everything to be perfect and on schedule to compete. He was a guy who led by example who has NEVER called out a teammate, now according to these "journalists" he has teammates who never won jack shit crapping on him behind his back. Was it the defense who failed to get the game winning stop last week shitting on him? Was is the ninety five million dollar man who due to his "passion" fucked up a punt return with a mental error that would force punishment laps on a pop warner team? Was it the o line that has Barkley running fucking backwards on most plays? This whole team fucking sucks and I hesitate to call it a team yet as it has no real team strength and always loses.
What really burns me though is the narrative that Eli has sucked since 2013. Bullshit, the passing game carried the team until McAdoo took over in 16. Since then the offense has sucked. Although Eli looked pretty good in Green Bay that year when the shirtless idiots he was throwing to let him down with drop after drop. But they were showing "passion".
Also, can we stop labeling Engram as a top talent until he produces on a consistent basis. He is hurt now, looks soft to me when he has the ball and drops everything. in sight. I plant him firmly in the overrated category right now.
This will be Eli's last year here, I hope the team can keep him above a winning career win loss record. I also hope the team sucks less so less articles like this will be written. Then everyone will get their wish and see how the shiny new QB works out when he is subjected to the NY media and a Beckham's tantrums when he is not force fed the ball. At least there will be passion.
One final note, want to help Eli, get a below average run game going. This will allow better down and distance and might actually show the league this unit has a pair and can smack some teams in the mouth. Slow down their rush a bit. Now it is always third and forever and they tee off on a pass rush since they are never challenged physically from the pillow soft NYG. I hope they win tonight, but that is my heart, my head expects a two score loss since this team sucks.
Just to add another thought on this post, when has the media EVER thought Eli was good. Remember Assclown Maddog saying Eli will never be accurate above a 60% completion percentage. That douche who never won anything, Boomer Esiason always dogging Eli. Deion Sanders with that phony I believe in Eli. That jealous prick Kurt Warner never giving Eli his due. All the people not wanting to give Eli credit for the SB wins, but for the defense and "The Catch." Eli getting sucked into the whole "Elite" brouhaha when asked the question.
Eli's been shit on his whole career. The media wanting to make this some issue that he's been in decline in these last few years is laughable. HE'S NEVER been given credit by this media, however he just keeps pushing on and when he proves his critics wrong there's always some extenuating circumstance... Oh he had Plax who went up for the ball and didn't need Eli to be accurate, he's got Tiki, he's got a good D behind him, it's only in the playoffs where he shines.
Rocco got it right by saying Eli doesn't need us peons to defend him. He's going to retire a rich man 10 times over and live out a great life, but man would I love to see this guy stick it these media douche bags just one more time. Then I could be happy as a long time Giants fan watching Eli walk off into the sunset.
Spot on. Eli got an unfair rap for two reasons I believe (1)what occurred in 2004 at the draft (2) and because Peyton is his brother. He has been scrutinized much more than the other qbs with his career statistics and achievements.
I didn't care about him one way or the other. He was fine when he was local, I guess. But ESPN is national and they are all, without exception, generalists. They do click-bait stories and regurgitate the local beat writers, so there is no real draw to seek out their pieces. This one fired me up, however. Not because of the anti-Manning spin; you see that universally among non-Giants writers and fans and, as you can plainly see here, a cohort of Giants fans. THat's easily ignored as so much wind. But the fabricated insinuation about people being fired because of Manning is outrageous.
Only once has this team won 12 games with Eli as the QB - in 2008. That was clearly the best Giants team of the entire era. The biggest reason for that is that the offensive line was, for much of that year, elite. The Giants were first in the league with 2500 yards rushing, and third in the league in points scored. Our leading receiver was Domenik Hixon with 596 yards.
6th ranked pass blocking OL, and 3 matchup challenges for defenses (80, 82, 88) with a decent TE.
A very good defense when healthy.
2011 team was rather underrated. That they only won 9 regular season games might have to be re-evaluated as to the reason why.
82 was the piece that pushed the Giants to be champion that year. Without him, they do not get past SF nor defeat NE.
Losing 82 to SF the following year did more damage to the Giants than it helped the Niners.
Manning was tough to stop with 3 good WRs back then. Not sure about now.
The Giants' offensive woes/lack of scoring have everything to do with the lack of a decent running game. Unfortunately this problem isn't one that can be solved overnight. If the Giants go into next season with the same OL - which I seriously doubt they will - then it's completely fair to criticize DG as a questionable GM.
But criticizing him for signing OBJ doesn't make sense to me. Let's say the Giants had traded OBJ for two first round picks, and drafted Darnold. What do you think the offense would look like this year or next? They certainly wouldn't be better than they are now. Under your scenario maybe they'd be competitive in 2020.
I don't know where the evidence lies for this. Perhaps people read into Mara's reaction to Manning sitting down last year and conclude that the outrage from the fan base pushed him to hire a GM and coach that would keep Manning around. I would hope those people who see things that way would at the very least admit they are bridging the gap in their argument with their own ideas separate from facts.
It's remotely possible the new GM and coach saw a situation around the am that was severely impacting the quarterback's performance, and if those issues were addressed the qb would cease to be a problem.
He is what he is- a veteran who doesn't move well who needs time to get comfortable and get hot. In a way Ranaan is right- the game isn't about pocket passing anymore and maybe he is right that Eli is a relic from an older style of football. That happens- don't blame Eli for that.
The reality is that Eli, through his career both on and off the field for the last 15 years in Giants blue, has earned the right to play for as long as he wants to and start for the Giants until he physically can't or his contract expires. When we were celebrating those amazing 2 Super Bowls we tacitly signed up for this possible outcome.
If I told you in 2007 that Eli would win those two Super Bowls the way that he did, but we would need to suffer for 3-4 years at the end of his career as he struggled a bit would you have signed up for that?
We as fans are impatient. The NFL is designed for parity and for ebbs and flows of success. We are in a low point following a REALLY high point.
My real fear is something that I see happening with this franchise lately. They are becoming very reactionary to things and straying from their slow and steady approach to success that has quite frankly made them one of the most successful franchises in NFL history.
Eli will play here and start until his contract expires OR he decides that he just doesn't want to play anymore.
Either way, after retirement NFL fans will treat Eli way worse than how he deserves based on his place in NFL history (stats and otherwise), with the exception of Giants fans, who will always love Eli and put him as an upper echelon QB. Eli will be punished like Strahan and become a 2nd ballot Hall of Famer and all will move on. F'n Phillip Rivers is going to be in the hall of fame how could they keep out Eli?
I've always been a big fan/supporter of Eli, but I hope we draft a good one come May '19. Eli has been part of the problem the last 3 years, not really sure how any objective observer can claim otherwise. Not getting anywhere near $22.2 Million worth of QB play.
You think Hart is playing better than Chad Wheeler?
He's long on opinion and short on the knowledge of the game to base it on.
In Texas they call it all hat but no cattle.
The Giants' offensive woes/lack of scoring have everything to do with the lack of a decent running game. Unfortunately this problem isn't one that can be solved overnight. If the Giants go into next season with the same OL - which I seriously doubt they will - then it's completely fair to criticize DG as a questionable GM.
But criticizing him for signing OBJ doesn't make sense to me. Let's say the Giants had traded OBJ for two first round picks, and drafted Darnold. What do you think the offense would look like this year or next? They certainly wouldn't be better than they are now. Under your scenario maybe they'd be competitive in 2020.
Maybe we'll be competitive in 2020 as things stand now. Under the scenario you painted at least the future path would be better laid out.
Reese has been made into a villain here. And while he deserves his fair share of criticism I see what the Giants did with Barkley and Beckham this offseason as being straight out of the Reese playbook...building the offense from the outside in. And the results have been the same: two players that are pretty to look at but who end up losing.
We are 1-4 on the heels of several bad seasons with one mirage thrown in. Whatever we're doing isn't the way to do things.
Good post, TLG, I agree with all of your points, and share your concerns about the direction of the organization. I like DG, but ownership's reliance on people from within the org will bite them in the ass eventually.
Reese got his share of credit where it was due - "In Reese We Trust", and he's taken on the criticism he deserves for several years of poor, if not downright awful drafts.
I don't see us building from the outside in intentionally - it was a necessity from the roster Gettleman inherited. and even then, he's completely revamped the OL.
He's put stock in Beckham and Barkley with the eye to make the trenches a strength - but that is easier said than done, but he's already tried more in one offseason than Reese ever did.
What I see Gettleman's philosophy here being is what is was in Carolina. Focus on skill positions and surround them with strong lines (the much balleyhooed Hog Mollies). That's why I don't get the comment he's a yes man or cherry picked to continue the Manning legacy. He's basically done here what he did before - cleared out the malcontents and look towards building the trenches.
He got rid of Steve Smith and Josh Norman because their attitudes were poor. He got rid of DeAngelo Williams because they had two similar RB's making a lot of money. He supported Cam with an OL and built the D around the front 7. His philosophy on DB's and WR's was to draft one or two every year to see what stuck.
I think he'll do the same here - and he's already weeded out a lot of dead weight. The results aren't great yet, but don't confuse teh results with the intent - and that's exactly what I see being done. People think there's no plan, mainly because there didn't seem to be one with Reese and then McAdoo.
And rebuilding the OL is indeed easier said than done. That's especially true when prime resources are being spent at RB and WR.
Only once has this team won 12 games with Eli as the QB - in 2008. That was clearly the best Giants team of the entire era. The biggest reason for that is that the offensive line was, for much of that year, elite. The Giants were first in the league with 2500 yards rushing, and third in the league in points scored. Our leading receiver was Domenik Hixon with 596 yards.
That team should have been the model...certainly on offense. Instead we have continued to build from the outside in by investing massive resources where we shouldn't. Think about what we have invested in Barkley, Beckham, Engram, and Shepard while spending years with the likes of Bobby Hart, John Jerry, Brett Jones, DJ Fluker, etc. protecting our quarterback.
A shiny house built on a foundation of sand.
You are conveniently forgetting what they spent (cash and picks) on Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, Solder, and Omameh.
The Giants have tried and spent on the OL -- they've just sucked at it. They have been cheap nor have they ignored it.
As much as you might hate the people, the Giants have actually been really good at finding skill position players.
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state that Bobby Hart isn't an NFL tackle, yet is doing just fine on a 3-1 Bengal team. Jones is starting for Minny last I saw also.
I've always been a big fan/supporter of Eli, but I hope we draft a good one come May '19. Eli has been part of the problem the last 3 years, not really sure how any objective observer can claim otherwise. Not getting anywhere near $22.2 Million worth of QB play.
You think Hart is playing better than Chad Wheeler?
Bobby Hart is still the exact same Bobby Hart. He almost single-handedly lost the Bengals a game in Atlanta. (A replay review overturned a Dalton fumble that would've ended the game after Hart's man blew past him one play after he also committed a false start.) The difference is thst Hart's shakiness doesn't seem to keep the offense from functioning. With the Giants, one guy screwing up (regardless of position) seems to grind the entire offense to a halt.
You are conveniently forgetting what they spent (cash and picks) on Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, Solder, and Omameh.
The Giants have tried and spent on the OL -- they've just sucked at it. They have been cheap nor have they ignored it.
Stop with those pesky facts. Let people continue with their narrative that Reese ignored the OL to spend draft picks on pretty WRs.
Go Terps : 2:37 pm : link : reply
Beckham's own words last week sounded like the definition of a malcontent despite Gettleman giving him a massive contract.
And rebuilding the OL is indeed easier said than done. That's especially true when prime resources are being spent at RB and WR.
By malcontents, I mean bad teammates. Beckham wants to win. Gettleman wants players who want to win. Steve Smith broke not one, but two teammates jaws. One in the film room and one on the practice field. He was a terrible teammate. Josh Norman went after Cam in practice and put himself above the team. He was a bad teammate.
say what you want about Beckham, but by all accounts he is an excellent teammate and has passion. You can argue too much at times, but he's not a bad teammate.
That's a key distinction.
And it's not just the resource allocation...it's the failure to recognize we are bad at scouting OL and doubling up on that failure by being unable to rectify the problem.
2010
JPP (7)
Linval Joseph (8)
Chad Jones
Phillip Dillard
Mitch Petrus
Adrian Tracy
Matt Dodge (1 - unfortunately)
2011
Prince Amukamara (7)
Marvin Austin
Jerrel Jernigan
James Brewer
Greg Jones
Tyler Sash
Jacquian Williams (1)
Da'Rel Scott
2012
David Wilson
Reuben Randle (2)
Jayron Hosley
Adrien Robinson
Brandon Mosley
Matt McCants
Markus Kuhn
2013
Justin Pugh (5)
Johnathan Hankins (5)
Damontre Moore
Ryan Nassib
Cooper Taylor
Eric Herman
Michael Cox
2014
Odell Beckham (4+)
Weston Richburg (4)
Jay Bromley
Andre Williams
Nat Berhe
Devon Kennard (4) - arguably the best value pick over this period
Bennett Jackson
2015 - note that we have one player remaining from this draft and they are still no their rookie deals!
Ereck Flowers (3 + 3 games)
Landon Collins (3+)
Owamagbe Odighizuwa
Mykkele Thompson
Geremy Davis
Bobby Hart (2)
2016
Eli Apple (2+)
Sterling Shepard (2+)
Darian Thompson (1)
BJ Goodson (1+)
Paul Perkins
Jerell Adams
2017
Evan Engram (1+)
Dalvin Tomlinson (1+)
Davis Webb
Wayne Gallman
Avery Moss
Adam Bisnowaty
And for reference I linked an article with some stats on draft successes, which is simply defined as a player becoming a consistent starter, though it's pretty clear that Reese was beyond awful in rds 3-7. The only successes over eight drafts are Kennard (great pick), Hart (purely looking at 'starts'), and maybe Goodson/Gallman (too early).
Link - ( New Window )
And it's not just the resource allocation...it's the failure to recognize we are bad at scouting OL and doubling up on that failure by being unable to rectify the problem.
How did we double up on that failure? Gettleman was the pro personnel director that helped bring in (scout) the FA OL that were part of the last good Giants OL. I guess you can give him some blame for Baas (not really DGs fault he couldn't stay healthy), but DG didn't draft Pugh, Richburg, Hart, Flowers, etc or sign Schwartz, Jerry, etc.
a) You have an ax to grind against the player himself
b) You think players are lying about how great he is in the locker room, for young players, etc.
He was never getting traded. Ever.
Another story made up by the media. And gobbled right up like always.
It was never happening.
And it's not just the resource allocation...it's the failure to recognize we are bad at scouting OL and doubling up on that failure by being unable to rectify the problem.
Sure - the team has been dreadful at scouting and identifying O-line talent.
But there is no logical connection between investing in the skill positions as causal. A good team has to do both.
Taking the money allocated to Beckham who is actually good at his job and a position the team has had success scouting, isn't going to make the offensive line better if the result is a player like Omameh or Solder.
It starts tonight .
there are no world beaters in front of us .
Get behind the Team and see what happens
a Win tonight would do wonders .
Long rest until Monday Night vs the 1-4 Falcons
You ve got the wrong fellow
joe48 : 3:22 pm : link : reply
To play Eli this year. That was a job requirement for both GM and coach. I also dont think Gettleman gave OBJ a $90M contract. This was all decided by ownership. Most likely John Mara. After all it is his and Tischs money
There's nothing to support this, yet people speak as it being a factual requirement for Gettleman and Shurmur to have to keep Eli.
Truly moronic on many levels.
You ve got the wrong fellow
First part of my post was to you. 2nd part was for Go Terps. Sorry it wasn't clear.
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I dont believe that it was Gettlemans decision
joe48 : 3:22 pm : link : reply
To play Eli this year. That was a job requirement for both GM and coach. I also dont think Gettleman gave OBJ a $90M contract. This was all decided by ownership. Most likely John Mara. After all it is his and Tischs money
There's nothing to support this, yet people speak as it being a factual requirement for Gettleman and Shurmur to have to keep Eli.
Truly moronic on many levels.
The certainty with which these people discuss these idiotic theories is truly alarming.
Maybe he did watch more than last year's Eagles game...
He is what he is- a veteran who doesn't move well who needs time to get comfortable and get hot. In a way Ranaan is right- the game isn't about pocket passing anymore and maybe he is right that Eli is a relic from an older style of football. That happens- don't blame Eli for that.
The reality is that Eli, through his career both on and off the field for the last 15 years in Giants blue, has earned the right to play for as long as he wants to and start for the Giants until he physically can't or his contract expires. When we were celebrating those amazing 2 Super Bowls we tacitly signed up for this possible outcome.
If I told you in 2007 that Eli would win those two Super Bowls the way that he did, but we would need to suffer for 3-4 years at the end of his career as he struggled a bit would you have signed up for that?
We as fans are impatient. The NFL is designed for parity and for ebbs and flows of success. We are in a low point following a REALLY high point.
My real fear is something that I see happening with this franchise lately. They are becoming very reactionary to things and straying from their slow and steady approach to success that has quite frankly made them one of the most successful franchises in NFL history.
Eli will play here and start until his contract expires OR he decides that he just doesn't want to play anymore.
Either way, after retirement NFL fans will treat Eli way worse than how he deserves based on his place in NFL history (stats and otherwise), with the exception of Giants fans, who will always love Eli and put him as an upper echelon QB. Eli will be punished like Strahan and become a 2nd ballot Hall of Famer and all will move on. F'n Phillip Rivers is going to be in the hall of fame how could they keep out Eli?
Limerick FTW.