Barkley & '19 QB vs Darnold and '19 DE

Actually, this is somewhat my ideal scenario (sans the losing part): Saquon and Herbert. I consider Saquon to be the best prospect and Herbert to be the best QB prospect.

I was genuinely disappointed when they took Barkley. I wasn't expecting Barkley to be this good. He is just as advertised and will likely be the best position player in the NFL next season. If they add Herbert then it was all worth it.

but this is going to be just like the Rams situation minus having to trade a bounty moving up for the QB. They took Gurley and Goff the following year.

In comment 14123718 Jay on the Island said:

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but this is going to be just like the Rams situation minus having to trade a bounty moving up for the QB. They took Gurley and Goff the following year.

Why does it suck? Rams may be the best team in the NFC.

Misunderstood you

would make Omameh and friends any better. Sure, they could scramble but that would be covering up shit with perfume. Then you run the risk of David Carr'ing the young QB.

Arguments that is consistently made on bbi from the anti qb folks is talking about the impact of a rookie qb on the 18 season. Drafting a qb has zero to do with the next season. We stuck now. If we had a rookie qb we would still suck. Drafting a qb is about the next 10 years. Rookie QBs are going to suck.

This is so groin grabbingly obvious but people persist in making this argument

but I've always allowed for the possibility the Giants could find a successor to Eli over the next year or two who is about as good, if not better. I don't view Darnold as the next Peyton Manning or John Elway. If we wind up with Herbert and Barkley in back-to-back years and they lead us to championship contention, these lost years will be viewed as necessary evils, just like 2003.

that we delayed a year to grab Saquon Barkley this year and then draft our future QB next year.

That is shortsighted thinking. The 2018 season was going to be a shit-fest regardless of Darnold or Barkley.

They can get a very good DE at 33.

They can even trade down in the 2nd, reacquire a 3rd round pick and end up with a Joe Jackson, Marlo Davidson or Christian Wilkins.

QBs to draft in 2019...as if 2018 is it for QBs.

In comment 14123740 Jerry in DC said:

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Arguments that is consistently made on bbi from the anti qb folks is talking about the impact of a rookie qb on the 18 season. Drafting a qb has zero to do with the next season. We stuck now. If we had a rookie qb we would still suck. Drafting a qb is about the next 10 years. Rookie QBs are going to suck. This is so groin grabbingly obvious but people persist in making this argument

It is a horrible argument. The value of RB vs. QB is at it's apex in favor of RB during the rookie year because RBs are much closer to their peek as rookies than QB, and because RBs have much shorter careers.

In comment 14123783 SHO'NUFF said:

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QBs to draft in 2019...as if 2018 is it for QBs.

The same people who said the Mahomes class sucked.

In comment 14123740 Jerry in DC said:

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Arguments that is consistently made on bbi from the anti qb folks is talking about the impact of a rookie qb on the 18 season. Drafting a qb has zero to do with the next season. We stuck now. If we had a rookie qb we would still suck. Drafting a qb is about the next 10 years. Rookie QBs are going to suck. This is so groin grabbingly obvious but people persist in making this argument

Jerry, nobody is saying this is just about the 2018 season. The question is are we a better team long term with Darnold (or Allen or Rosen) in 2018 + DE in 2019 (looking at the 2019 draft so far that will likely be the best non-QB option) + Wayne Gallman as our RB versus Barkley at RB + Justin Herbert/Will Grier at QB + ??? as our pass rushers. I would argue that unless you have are projecting the next Khalil Mack the latter group actually sets the Giants up for better success longterm because Gallman allows defenses to play more for the pass because Gallman is not shifty enough to make players miss in space. If you guess wrong with Barkley he will torch you.

I hate this argument that 2018 was the ONLY year viable QB's would be entering the draft. As if it was Darnold, or no one for twenty years.

One, we have no idea what Darnold, Rosen and the rest will turn into. What has Matt Stafford ever won? Jeez, a perfect scouting score in Andrew Luck has turned up not one championship. There are no guarantees a guy blossoms into a star or stays healthy.

Two, if we can someone score Barkley and then a guy like Herbert, well then, I think we win in that scenario. Best of both worlds.

The fact remains, we HAD to see if Eli had anything left. While I believe he does, I firmly equally believe it is not with the Giants. He needs to move on.

My worst case scenario is somehow we win some upcoming games and drop out of the top 3 or 5 in next year's draft. I'm all for sucking right now, pains me to say as a big time fan. But sometimes the best medicine makes you feel like dog shit, but ultimately cures the illness.

In comment 14123783 SHO'NUFF said:

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QBs to draft in 2019...as if 2018 is it for QBs.

Hardly the case. There may or may not be any. What we do know is that QBs are hard to find, that last year there were several QBs deemed worthy by teams and NYG had their pick of any one of them except Baker Mayfield. What QBs will be available and what position we will be in to draft one in the future is an unknown. So it may work out and they may get their guy. But as of now I highly doubt KL is the answer and Eli is done.

And they were terribly wrong. They misjudged the need.

forget he had JAGs at running back for the last few seasons...and the new QB would continue to have JAGs.

In comment 14123827 SHO'NUFF said:

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forget he had JAGs at running back for the last few seasons...and the new QB would continue to have JAGs.

JAG RBs was way down the list of problems to solve. Way down.

it's easier to find franchise QBs...the league is full of them. This time last year, nobody knew who Baker Mayfield was...nobody knew Patrick Mahomes would blow up like he did. Ok, maybe McAdoo, but it's besides the point.

If they get a good franchise QB in next years draft. But that's also with luck playing into it, not design. NYG clearly thought they would be better this year and clearly underestimated the urgency to address QB situation.

In comment 14123836 UberAlias said:

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In comment 14123827 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: forget he had JAGs at running back for the last few seasons...and the new QB would continue to have JAGs. JAG RBs was way down the list of problems to solve. Way down.

really? have you watched our running game for the last few years?

I agree with them.

The rest of the comments gravitate toward “DG fucked up the #2” pick.

In comment 14123875 SHO'NUFF said:

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In comment 14123836 UberAlias said: Quote: In comment 14123827 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: forget he had JAGs at running back for the last few seasons...and the new QB would continue to have JAGs. JAG RBs was way down the list of problems to solve. Way down. really? have you watched our running game for the last few years?

I have. And a big part of that is oline. If you imply RB is more important position to success than QB, or that that we don't desperately need one, you are nuts. QB, Oline, and edge rusher are all much more pressing needs than RB was. We now have an all world RB and are probably the worst team in the league. So yes, I stand behind my claim that RB was not the major issue.

We'll have to suffer through a 3rd consecutive shitty season but in the mean time we should be able to rebuild the trenches and other areas (CB, S)

In comment 14123862 SHO'NUFF said:

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it's easier to find franchise QBs...the league is full of them. This time last year, nobody knew who Baker Mayfield was...nobody knew Patrick Mahomes would blow up like he did. Ok, maybe McAdoo, but it's besides the point.

This is what I was referring to in the OP. With the rules becoming increasingly unfair for defenders and with offensive line play decreasing rapidly throughout the league, I think it's definitely easier to find your guy. Mobility is becoming one of the most important things to look for in a QB.

If that is true, then it is imperative to have skill players and complementary pieces like Barkley on your side.

In comment 14123909 Eman11 said:

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We'll have to suffer through a 3rd consecutive shitty season but in the mean time we should be able to rebuild the trenches and other areas (CB, S)

At the expense of wasting two more years of Odell and Barkley.

2019 needs to be the learning year for the new QB, while you spend the next two offseasons fixing the surrounding holes. With the hope that 2020 yields a playoff caliber team.

We won't know if any of the '18 QBs are any good. The same will likely be said for the '19 QBs, but my god, if we had Darnold/Rosen/Allen + a JAG RB, the offense will be an absolute shit show.

In comment 14123936 ajr2456 said:

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In comment 14123909 Eman11 said: Quote: We'll have to suffer through a 3rd consecutive shitty season but in the mean time we should be able to rebuild the trenches and other areas (CB, S) At the expense of wasting two more years of Odell and Barkley. 2019 needs to be the learning year for the new QB, while you spend the next two offseasons fixing the surrounding holes. With the hope that 2020 yields a playoff caliber team.

Well this year is already a waste so it's only one more after this one. I was counting last year as the 1st of the three shitty seasons.

Where does Herbert stack up v. the QB class from this year?

It is NOT necessary to get the QB NOW. You build a team that can support a young QB- because that QB will struggle as he learns for a year or two. The younger players will improve and by the time the QB is ready, there is a core around him.

Tear it down this off-season- cut or trade anyone who won't be goo in 3 years. That means everyone but OBJ and Barkley can go (though they can't cut Solder this off-season because of how the contract is structured).

Focus on the OL and pass-rushers in the 2019 draft. Get some younger RFA guys in FA who can be building blocks at CB and maybe WR.

Draft the QB in 2020 (because the Giants will be VERY bad again in 2019, so a top pick will be in hand), and then finish drafting the OL and DL, with some DBs.

In comment 14123958 Eman11 said:

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In comment 14123936 ajr2456 said: Quote: In comment 14123909 Eman11 said: Quote: We'll have to suffer through a 3rd consecutive shitty season but in the mean time we should be able to rebuild the trenches and other areas (CB, S) At the expense of wasting two more years of Odell and Barkley. 2019 needs to be the learning year for the new QB, while you spend the next two offseasons fixing the surrounding holes. With the hope that 2020 yields a playoff caliber team. Well this year is already a waste so it's only one more after this one. I was counting last year as the 1st of the three shitty seasons.

You’d be wasting 19 and 20. You can’t expect Tua to come in and lead you to the postseason unless everything else is fixed, which seems unlikely.

In comment 14123962 BleedingBlue2 said:

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Where does Herbert stack up v. the QB class from this year?

If he was in last years class I’d rank it

Rosen
Mayfield
Herbert
Darnold
Jackson
Allen.

until we fix the OL

In comment 14123814 BillyM said:

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I hate this argument that 2018 was the ONLY year viable QB's would be entering the draft. As if it was Darnold, or no one for twenty years. One, we have no idea what Darnold, Rosen and the rest will turn into. What has Matt Stafford ever won? Jeez, a perfect scouting score in Andrew Luck has turned up not one championship. There are no guarantees a guy blossoms into a star or stays healthy. Two, if we can someone score Barkley and then a guy like Herbert, well then, I think we win in that scenario. Best of both worlds. The fact remains, we HAD to see if Eli had anything left. While I believe he does, I firmly equally believe it is not with the Giants. He needs to move on. My worst case scenario is somehow we win some upcoming games and drop out of the top 3 or 5 in next year's draft. I'm all for sucking right now, pains me to say as a big time fan. But sometimes the best medicine makes you feel like dog shit, but ultimately cures the illness.

You miss perspective, #2 pick in a QB rich draft, that’s what’s uncommon. This was a draft with 5 legit qbs. At a 40% success rate, 2 would be successful. We had the #2 pick so we had a great shot at the right guy. This is what was different about the Giants and 2018.

In comment 14124052 ajr2456 said:

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In comment 14123958 Eman11 said: Quote: In comment 14123936 ajr2456 said: Quote: In comment 14123909 Eman11 said: Quote: We'll have to suffer through a 3rd consecutive shitty season but in the mean time we should be able to rebuild the trenches and other areas (CB, S) At the expense of wasting two more years of Odell and Barkley. 2019 needs to be the learning year for the new QB, while you spend the next two offseasons fixing the surrounding holes. With the hope that 2020 yields a playoff caliber team. Well this year is already a waste so it's only one more after this one. I was counting last year as the 1st of the three shitty seasons. You’d be wasting 19 and 20. You can’t expect Tua to come in and lead you to the postseason unless everything else is fixed, which seems unlikely.

I disagree. If the line is fixed and he has Barkley OBJ and Engram I think he could do real well.

Dak led Dallas to the postseason in his rookie year because he had talent around him. I think Tua is already a better QB than Dak, he just doesn't have the experience Dak has yet.

I see it the same way as rich.

Just like some accuse the FO of being blind to the problems in the past, lets not be blind again.

The team is far off on both lines and DBs and at QB. Both Lines, DB's and QB. With 2LB's and a 2 Wr thrown in the mix

That takes two years.

Sorry the team is that talent short. Look at the drafts prior to 2018. There is no there there.

If we ignore reality of how many years of good drafts it will take then we will be the Cleveland Browns or the Detroit Lions

In comment 14124024 rich in DC said:

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It is NOT necessary to get the QB NOW. You build a team that can support a young QB- because that QB will struggle as he learns for a year or two. The younger players will improve and by the time the QB is ready, there is a core around him. Tear it down this off-season- cut or trade anyone who won't be goo in 3 years. That means everyone but OBJ and Barkley can go (though they can't cut Solder this off-season because of how the contract is structured). Focus on the OL and pass-rushers in the 2019 draft. Get some younger RFA guys in FA who can be building blocks at CB and maybe WR. Draft the QB in 2020 (because the Giants will be VERY bad again in 2019, so a top pick will be in hand), and then finish drafting the OL and DL, with some DBs.

Agreed and what I was thinking with my "Tank for Tua" post

I d rather Barkley and a quarterback next season.

As a Darnold guy, this scenario was presented to me by other posters.

However, I did not foresee a season where the Giants would be possible s drafting in top 5 again

Could turn out even better than I hoped

In comment 14124073 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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In comment 14123814 BillyM said: Quote: I hate this argument that 2018 was the ONLY year viable QB's would be entering the draft. As if it was Darnold, or no one for twenty years. One, we have no idea what Darnold, Rosen and the rest will turn into. What has Matt Stafford ever won? Jeez, a perfect scouting score in Andrew Luck has turned up not one championship. There are no guarantees a guy blossoms into a star or stays healthy. Two, if we can someone score Barkley and then a guy like Herbert, well then, I think we win in that scenario. Best of both worlds. The fact remains, we HAD to see if Eli had anything left. While I believe he does, I firmly equally believe it is not with the Giants. He needs to move on. My worst case scenario is somehow we win some upcoming games and drop out of the top 3 or 5 in next year's draft. I'm all for sucking right now, pains me to say as a big time fan. But sometimes the best medicine makes you feel like dog shit, but ultimately cures the illness. You miss perspective, #2 pick in a QB rich draft, that’s what’s uncommon. This was a draft with 5 legit qbs. At a 40% success rate, 2 would be successful. We had the #2 pick so we had a great shot at the right guy. This is what was different about the Giants and 2018.

We could also have picked the wrong guy. Saquon was the sure bet. We'll have another shot next year. I agree with Billy. We got Saquon, we gave Eli another shot and we'll have a great opportunity to draft a QB next year. This is an ideal turn of events.

In comment 14124024 rich in DC said:

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It is NOT necessary to get the QB NOW. You build a team that can support a young QB- because that QB will struggle as he learns for a year or two. The younger players will improve and by the time the QB is ready, there is a core around him. Tear it down this off-season- cut or trade anyone who won't be goo in 3 years. That means everyone but OBJ and Barkley can go (though they can't cut Solder this off-season because of how the contract is structured). Focus on the OL and pass-rushers in the 2019 draft. Get some younger RFA guys in FA who can be building blocks at CB and maybe WR. Draft the QB in 2020 (because the Giants will be VERY bad again in 2019, so a top pick will be in hand), and then finish drafting the OL and DL, with some DBs.

We should have done that last offseason and I championed it then. Barkley changes things for me. He's already in his prime and given the physical nature of the position, the clock is ticking to capitalize on a special talent right now. You build around him and press forward with what DG started this offseason. Rip off the Eli bandaid, buy a RT with his cap savings and take a C/G day 2...a young QB has everything he needs to succeed next year. Don't change plans midstream after one offseason.

In comment 14123740 Jerry in DC said:

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Arguments that is consistently made on bbi from the anti qb folks is talking about the impact of a rookie qb on the 18 season. Drafting a qb has zero to do with the next season. We stuck now. If we had a rookie qb we would still suck. Drafting a qb is about the next 10 years. Rookie QBs are going to suck. This is so groin grabbingly obvious but people persist in making this argument

So we draft one next year and suck again for his rookie year. How long are we supposed to suck?

The challenge is picking the right one.

There will not be a RB close to Barkley for 5 or 10 years.

I like the comment about the Rams. Gurley, then Goff.

Either the Oregon kid or the WVU kid is good for me. Getting Barkley and a new, shiny QB is great, better than Darnold/Allen/Rosen and Hernandez this year.