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Imagine having Barkley and Beckham and still being terrible

pjcas18 : 10/12/2018 11:00 am
that was a tweet I read last night from someone on twitter. I forget who it was, a national guy or a beat writer, but it wasn't a fan.

I thought about it for a minute and it actually made me feel better about the future.

6 games in to his career I have no qualms or homerism IMO with saying Barkley is the best RB in the NFL.

Just on the broadcast last night Aikman compared him with Barry Sanders and Earl Campbell. Think about that. He has the best combination of speed, elusiveness, strength and power I've ever seen in a RB - he's Bo Jackson IMO. He's like a Marshall Faulk but more powerful and maybe faster (if you can believe that).

and Beckham is, well we know, he's one of the best wide receivers in the league. I ignore the histrionics or emotion because it's at the point now where he's being stalked on the sidelines seeing what he'll do next. Not making excuses, I know some people on here focus on it, I'm saying I don't care about his outbursts.

It's obvious Barkley is or is soon to be the leader of this team.

A couple years ago fans were worried we were "wasting Eli's prime" and now I think it's shifted and you have to hope we're not going to waste Beckham and Barkley's prime.

This isn't a bash Eli thread, it's more of a thread that the Giants are not in the dire straits people think, I believe this is fixable, and quickly fixable (the offense at least), and should be fixable this off-season.

fuck Saquon  
SHO'NUFF : 10/12/2018 11:02 am : link
we should've drafted a QB. It's not about 2018, it's about the next 10 years!
it's fixable  
family progtitioner : 10/12/2018 11:03 am : link
they need to cut Eli at year's end, get a QB and then will need to be patient while that QB learns on the job. I see 2020 as the year this team gets going.
.  
fanofthejets : 10/12/2018 11:06 am : link
It's not unusual and has happened lots of times. Basically Philadelphia did what Belichick would do. Take 1 guy away completely (they picked Beckham) and don't even try to stop Barkley. Granted it also helped that they could hurry and pressure Eli rather conventionally. Easier to neutralize Beckham that way.
the should trade  
japanhead : 10/12/2018 11:06 am : link
odell for a first and a third. let him scream into fans on the sideline somewhere else. guy is a headcase.
Yeah! Fuck Saquon and his 230 total yards!  
Jints in Carolina : 10/12/2018 11:07 am : link
Fuck him in the ass!

Christ almighty........
Its about winning in the trenches ....  
Beer Man : 10/12/2018 11:07 am : link
You can have all the bright shinny weapons that you want, but if you can't win in the trenches, then what you've seen is what you get. We are now 7 years from the last SB, and the OL is still a F-ing mess
SB better hands than Bo  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/12/2018 11:08 am : link
And bigger and twitchier than Faulk.

I'm actually optimistic for the future. DG gets a scheme fit guy for Scurmur in Lauletta, we've got plenty of weapons for a WCO, and draft Bosa and a quality RT 2nd round in a deep T draft baby!
aside from my obvious sarcasm, how could that tweet  
SHO'NUFF : 10/12/2018 11:09 am : link
make you feel better? I took it as, how the hell can we be this bad with Barkley and Beckham? smh...
We need a good, mobile QB.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/12/2018 11:10 am : link
& then this offense will take off.
The best part is,  
Giantology : 10/12/2018 11:13 am : link
We don't even have to imagine. It shouldn't be this fucking hard.
not true  
SHO'NUFF : 10/12/2018 11:13 am : link
even mobile QBs need some semblance of blocking.
We’re 1-5  
gmenatlarge : 10/12/2018 11:15 am : link
With those two and you’re optimistic? Those are the last guys you get after building a TEAM, there is no team behind these guys and now you’re going to have to find them out of desperation. This is NO way to build a team, it’s the shiny toy syndrome which may sell tickets but ain’t winning you any games (would have lost in Houston save the TO’s). How long before Barkley gets injured when he keeps getting hit in his he backfield? How soon before Beckham’s head explodes from not getting the ball and seeing Barkley eclipse him? This is a whiteboard with NO signs of improvement!
Lost in the wash is Landon Collins as well  
jcn56 : 10/12/2018 11:16 am : link
I know he's been up and down this year, but the guy has talent, we've seen it.

Right now, this team should not be *this* bad. I'm not suggesting they should be some unstoppable force, but they shouldn't be this bad.
It's not fun  
JonC : 10/12/2018 11:16 am : link
but it's also really difficult to rebuild an NFL roster when you choose to hang onto the older QB.

Either way, it takes time to rebuild and fans need to get a hold of themselves and find some patience.
RE: aside from my obvious sarcasm, how could that tweet  
Jints in Carolina : 10/12/2018 11:17 am : link
In comment 14124028 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
make you feel better? I took it as, how the hell can we be this bad with Barkley and Beckham? smh...


phew....i was worried about you for a second LOL
Whiteboard should be  
gmenatlarge : 10/12/2018 11:18 am : link
Shitshow damn spellcheck
pjcas  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/12/2018 11:19 am : link
this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.
you guys who thought this was a one year fix  
Paulie Walnuts : 10/12/2018 11:19 am : link
LOL
RE: It's not fun  
bigbluehoya : 10/12/2018 11:20 am : link
In comment 14124069 JonC said:
Quote:
but it's also really difficult to rebuild an NFL roster when you choose to hang onto the older QB.

Either way, it takes time to rebuild and fans need to get a hold of themselves and find some patience.


I think people will find some patience when they see some more evidence of management/ownership really leaning into a rebuild. Relates back to comments you’ve made elsewhere about doing things a year early as opposed to a year late.
RE: pjcas  
pjcas18 : 10/12/2018 11:23 am : link
In comment 14124081 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.


so doesn't that make you feel better about the future. Beckham is locked in, Barkley is a rookie. Hernandez is a rookie. they need a couple OL and s QB (on offense).

I think this is more fixable than others I guess.
RE: pjcas  
RobCarpenter : 10/12/2018 11:26 am : link
In comment 14124081 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.


How is it incomprehensible? The entire OL is new, and half of the roster was replaced. The drafts have been awful and the team is paying the price. It's a team game.

Back when the Giants main offensive threats were Shockey, Tiki, and Toomer, it worked b/c the OL could block. And Eli was younger. And the defense had Strahan.
Give this team even an average QB and  
Les in TO : 10/12/2018 11:28 am : link
We will be putting up 30 points week in week out.

With all the offense friendly rule changes over the past few years, the league has record points scoring - no excuses to put up less than 20 points per game when you have a lambo and Ferrari on offense (and while we don’t have the cowboys offensive line it’s not as awful as some make it out to be)

I believe Aikman also compared him  
giants#1 : 10/12/2018 11:29 am : link
to Emmitt at one point.
RE: pjcas  
BillKo : 10/12/2018 11:29 am : link
In comment 14124081 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.


Not when you can't control the LOS.

Barkley is getting a lot of these yards mostly on his own.

Even last night...he ran wild. But did we really control the LOS? How many times did we go play action?
RE: pjcas  
UberAlias : 10/12/2018 11:30 am : link
In comment 14124081 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.
What's more incomprehensible is not so much that a team could be so bad, because even bad teams have good players, but that the OFFENSE in particular which fields both of these players at the same time, presumably forcing teams to decide which of the two to shut down, could be so bad. Barkley had a massive game last night, and the offense still sucked.
RE: Give this team even an average QB and  
dep026 : 10/12/2018 11:32 am : link
In comment 14124122 Les in TO said:
Quote:
We will be putting up 30 points week in week out.

With all the offense friendly rule changes over the past few years, the league has record points scoring - no excuses to put up less than 20 points per game when you have a lambo and Ferrari on offense (and while we don’t have the cowboys offensive line it’s not as awful as some make it out to be)


Yeah our offensive line isn’t that bad. You’re a troll at this point.
RE: RE: pjcas  
pjcas18 : 10/12/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 14124108 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 14124081 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.



How is it incomprehensible? The entire OL is new, and half of the roster was replaced. The drafts have been awful and the team is paying the price. It's a team game.

Back when the Giants main offensive threats were Shockey, Tiki, and Toomer, it worked b/c the OL could block. And Eli was younger. And the defense had Strahan.


that's some slight revisionist history. In 2004 (with Tiki, Shockey, and Toomer) the Giants had and I quote many "the worst OL in the NFL"

Seubert returning (2006/2007 really) and McKenzie signing "fixed" the OL and they (and this is key) played a then record 34 consecutive games together with the same OL configuration (maybe still a record).

that's why I said a couple OL and a QB and the Giants could be back on track (on offense).
RE: RE: pjcas  
Beer Man : 10/12/2018 11:37 am : link
In comment 14124126 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 14124081 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.



Not when you can't control the LOS.

Barkley is getting a lot of these yards mostly on his own.

Even last night...he ran wild. But did we really control the LOS? How many times did we go play action?
Imagine Barkley behind a decent like, it would change the way other teams game-plan for defending against the Giants
RobCarpenter  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/12/2018 11:39 am : link
Because we have arguably two of the very best skill position players in the entire league, and yet we're the worst team in the NFL.

There are crap offensive lines all over this league. And Manning has fallen off a cliff. But to have those two and struggle to score 20 points in a game is absurd.

We were a better offense with Dave Brown at QB and Charles Way being our best "skill" player.
RE: RE: It's not fun  
JonC : 10/12/2018 11:42 am : link
In comment 14124088 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 14124069 JonC said:


Quote:


but it's also really difficult to rebuild an NFL roster when you choose to hang onto the older QB.

Either way, it takes time to rebuild and fans need to get a hold of themselves and find some patience.



I think people will find some patience when they see some more evidence of management/ownership really leaning into a rebuild. Relates back to comments you’ve made elsewhere about doing things a year early as opposed to a year late.


I get it. Other than Eli, the rebuild is underway. No matter how they dressed the pig last offseason, it's in progress minus a blue chip QB prospect.

I'm as annoyed as anyone here they chose to stick with Eli. But in contrast, the rookie is going to suffer too, so we have to ride out the time they need to get draft picks and UFAs onboard, regardless of who the QB is.
RE: I believe Aikman also compared him  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/12/2018 11:42 am : link
In comment 14124124 giants#1 said:
Quote:
to Emmitt at one point.

Stupid Aikman. Imagine SB running behind that Dallas oline.
RE: RE: I believe Aikman also compared him  
gmenatlarge : 10/12/2018 11:48 am : link
In comment 14124190 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 14124124 giants#1 said:


Quote:


to Emmitt at one point.


Stupid Aikman. Imagine SB running behind that Dallas oline.


Yeah, what does Aikman know about football anyway!
Aikman mentioned that Dallas OL  
pjcas18 : 10/12/2018 11:51 am : link
and he said that's why the Cowboys drafting Elliott at 4 without a QB or with an old/injured QB in Romo is not apples to apples with the Giants taking Barkley.

But then he also said he believes the Giants have zero regrets, nor would he with that decision since he felt it meant the Giants did not believe Darnold, Rosen, Allen or Jackson were franchise QB's.

And now we're rehashing Barkley vs Darnold which I don't care to do. Giants are where they are. Looking forward is the only way out.
It's not that hard for me to imagine  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/12/2018 11:52 am : link
with our current QB and OLine situation. Both are amongst the absolute worst in the league, and have been for a couple of years, sadly.
OL OL OL OL OL OL OL OL  
dep026 : 10/12/2018 11:55 am : link
Has been the same for 5 years now. A big play or nothing.
Last night was the perfect example of it  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/12/2018 11:56 am : link
not just being the OL, either.
RE: aside from my obvious sarcasm, how could that tweet  
santacruzom : 10/12/2018 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14124028 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
make you feel better? I took it as, how the hell can we be this bad with Barkley and Beckham? smh...


Well, we have a bunch of other bad players who need to be improved upon, on both sides of the ball.

I mean...
Aikman compared Barkley to  
bceagle05 : 10/12/2018 12:05 pm : link
Emmitt for his ability to make the first guy miss, Earl Campbell for his ability to run with power, and Barry Sanders for his ability to make big plays. All three comparison came in the span of about 10 minutes - that's how you know you're living well.
The QB position is so far and away  
Keith : 10/12/2018 12:06 pm : link
more important than every other position on the field. The issue isn't only that our QB play is amongst the worst in the league, but we are still passing the ball a ton. We have one of the best runners in football and yet we pass the ball all the time. We should be running the ball 75% of the time.
My view:  
loafin : 10/12/2018 12:09 pm : link
The Giants made the right move in drafting Barkley
If they drafted Darnold (or another QB) they would still have the same W-L record. But they gained a true generational talent.

As far as Eli:
He did not have Engram or Ellison last night. That got rid of a security blanket and an additional blocker. Eli was bad, I'm not excusing that. I'm noticing that he doesn't trust what he sees down the field, is that a happy feet problem or a OL issue I cannot answer. I do believe that if the OL was better Eli is more than capable. That being said Eli is Eli - you take the really good with the really bad.

The coaching staff:
I do not know what to make of Shurmur, I do think he is limited by the basic talent of the team. Solder is better than Flowers but VASTLY overpaid, Jenkins seems like he is back to his Ram days where he is trying to jump routes to make a big play and getting burned.
Shurmur is supposed to be an offensive genius but I have a feeling he misses his OL coach from Minnesota. Is he another Mcadoo?? Time will tell which is a very scary thought

The team:
The team seemed to quit last night. The defense seemed to be demoralized (can you blame them?) We are all professional at what we do, all of us let our emotions impact our work lives, players do as well.

The future:
I'm in the camp that says find out what you have in Lauletta and plan on trading for or drafting a QB next year and getting more OL help. The team needs to win as winning cures a lot of bad play.



RE: RE: pjcas  
santacruzom : 10/12/2018 12:09 pm : link
In comment 14124103 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14124081 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.



so doesn't that make you feel better about the future. Beckham is locked in, Barkley is a rookie. Hernandez is a rookie. they need a couple OL and s QB (on offense).

I think this is more fixable than others I guess.


It is definitely fixable. I've seen a perpetually dismal franchise I never had hope for become a powerhouse (the Warriors) after acquiring a transcendental talent or two, changing the culture, taking some risks, and making great hires.

Unfortunately, I doubt we will change ownership like they did. But just a few key correct moves can swing our entire fate.
I think this was the plan when they drafted SB  
montanagiant : 10/12/2018 12:29 pm : link
1) Get the best player in the draft
2) Take steps toward fixing the line (Hernandez)
3) Purge the cancers off the team
4) Work towards fixing the line in the off season
5) Grab a QB in the 2019 draft
6) Ride it out with Eli until 2020
7) Eli retires, the Rookie takes over

This ensures that we not only build the team around Barkley but do so in a timely fashion. Can you imagine this kid with an actual decent line?

I honestly think the only QB they wanted was Mayfield and when he got drafted first they went with SB. Either way the main priority is fixing the damn line and that is going to take another off season and draft at the very least
RE: RE: RE: pjcas  
RobCarpenter : 10/12/2018 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14124153 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14124108 RobCarpenter said:


Quote:


In comment 14124081 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


this is what I've been harping on for the last few weeks. It's almost incomprehensible.



How is it incomprehensible? The entire OL is new, and half of the roster was replaced. The drafts have been awful and the team is paying the price. It's a team game.

Back when the Giants main offensive threats were Shockey, Tiki, and Toomer, it worked b/c the OL could block. And Eli was younger. And the defense had Strahan.

that's some slight revisionist history. In 2004 (with Tiki, Shockey, and Toomer) the Giants had and I quote many "the worst OL in the NFL"

Seubert returning (2006/2007 really) and McKenzie signing "fixed" the OL and they (and this is key) played a then record 34 consecutive games together with the same OL configuration (maybe still a record).

that's why I said a couple OL and a QB and the Giants could be back on track (on offense).


I agree with you on the OL, I was trying to make the point that the problems have to do with having 3/5th of an OL line that isn't good and needs to be replaced, and not with having playmakers.

Although Solder's performance last night was troubling to say the least.
RE: RobCarpenter  
RobCarpenter : 10/12/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14124171 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Because we have arguably two of the very best skill position players in the entire league, and yet we're the worst team in the NFL.

There are crap offensive lines all over this league. And Manning has fallen off a cliff. But to have those two and struggle to score 20 points in a game is absurd.

We were a better offense with Dave Brown at QB and Charles Way being our best "skill" player.


Please. We were absolutely not better with Dave Brown. He was the worst QB I've ever seen in a Giants uniform.

And the OL blocking has a major impact on the Giants' ability to convert on third downs -- which accounts for the poor red zone production last night. If the Giants score on the two drives in the red zone it would have been a completely different game at 14-14. But they didn't convert, and when the Eagles scored it went to 21-6. Of course, it didn't help that after SB was gashing the Eagles Shurmur put in Gallman. That was a terrible decision by Shurmur last night.

The Giants' OL is one of the worst in the league right now. And Eli falling off of a cliff has a major impact on the entire O.
RobCarpenter  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/12/2018 12:48 pm : link
Dan Reeves' offense with Dave Brown was a train wreck. But they moved the football better than this team does. Except for 1996, those teams scored more points than the 2017 team, and quite possibly the 2018 team (remains to be seen).
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/index.htm - ( New Window )
Have been thinking the same thing  
lawguy9801 : 10/12/2018 12:52 pm : link
It's astounding to be so terrible with Barkley and Odell at the skill positions.

Just proves how terrible the rest of the team is.

And, unfortunately at this stage of his career, Eli.
RE: RobCarpenter  
RobCarpenter : 10/12/2018 1:10 pm : link
In comment 14124487 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Dan Reeves' offense with Dave Brown was a train wreck. But they moved the football better than this team does. Except for 1996, those teams scored more points than the 2017 team, and quite possibly the 2018 team (remains to be seen). https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/index.htm - ( New Window )


In 1993 under Reeves, with Simms as QB, the Giants were 10th in yards, 18th in points. In 1994 under Reeves, with Brown as QB, they were 28th in yards. That went to 29th in 1995 and 30th in 1996, and point rankings went down each year (22nd to 24th to 28th).

I don't dispute that the O sucks right now but it was not better with Dave Brown. And Brown actually got worse and worse as he had more experience.
The Giants won 4 Super Bowls and went to 5  
arniefez : 10/12/2018 1:12 pm : link
and Giant fans think a star RB and star WR are the keys to a winning team? QB, OL, DL win games. The rest of the positions are compliments.
Being terrible with Barkley and Beckham  
Gregorio : 10/12/2018 1:15 pm : link
just gives more credence to the concept of building from the inside out. Great skill players with a poor O-line doesn't work.

The Eagles DL were pressuring Eli all game long, and Eli under pressure has been happening for a long time now. How can the skill players develop a play when the QB has no time to make a good decision?
RE: It's not fun  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/12/2018 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14124069 JonC said:
Quote:
but it's also really difficult to rebuild an NFL roster when you choose to hang onto the older QB.

Either way, it takes time to rebuild and fans need to get a hold of themselves and find some patience.


I totally agree. Fortunately the state of affairs in football now it's a lot easier to get that qb. We got the generational player in Barkley. Drafting a halfway decent qb shouldn't be tough. Everyone looking to kill Shurmur and Gettleman need to get a grip. This is a process.
RE: My view:  
montanagiant : 10/12/2018 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14124310 loafin said:
Quote:
The Giants made the right move in drafting Barkley
If they drafted Darnold (or another QB) they would still have the same W-L record. But they gained a true generational talent.

As far as Eli:
He did not have Engram or Ellison last night. That got rid of a security blanket and an additional blocker. Eli was bad, I'm not excusing that. I'm noticing that he doesn't trust what he sees down the field, is that a happy feet problem or a OL issue I cannot answer. I do believe that if the OL was better Eli is more than capable. That being said Eli is Eli - you take the really good with the really bad.

The coaching staff:
I do not know what to make of Shurmur, I do think he is limited by the basic talent of the team. Solder is better than Flowers but VASTLY overpaid, Jenkins seems like he is back to his Ram days where he is trying to jump routes to make a big play and getting burned.
Shurmur is supposed to be an offensive genius but I have a feeling he misses his OL coach from Minnesota. Is he another Mcadoo?? Time will tell which is a very scary thought

The team:
The team seemed to quit last night. The defense seemed to be demoralized (can you blame them?) We are all professional at what we do, all of us let our emotions impact our work lives, players do as well.

The future:
I'm in the camp that says find out what you have in Lauletta and plan on trading for or drafting a QB next year and getting more OL help. The team needs to win as winning cures a lot of bad play.



This is a good post
_  
Banks : 10/12/2018 2:45 pm : link
It's sad. They may be the two best at their position in Giants history, but without a solid line, we have to rely on big plays to score. That's just not gonna work. This year is lost. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the Barkley magic. It's all we have
RobCarpenter  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/12/2018 3:04 pm : link
And Eli appears to be getting worse and worse.

I hated Reeves. And Brown sucked. But the productivity of our offense now is certainly in the Dave Brown-era ballpark right now from a statistical standpoint. And we're in an era where all other teams are lighting up the scoreboard.

We are REALLY, REALLY bad on offense.
RE: It's not fun  
crick n NC : 10/12/2018 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14124069 JonC said:
Quote:


Either way, it takes time to rebuild and fans need to get a hold of themselves and find some patience.


Oh fans around here love the word 'patience'
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