The fate of the offense, and the fate of the team along with it, depended on the offense line. Our own coach said so in that many words. The chances they had fixed the OL were 50/50 at best and realistically less than that. We all knew they hadn’t fixed the OL almost right away.
That didn’t mean they were never going to be competitive but it meant they were not going to win many games either. This is and has been an obvious fact. Am I disappointed, sure. But I don’t get the anger. This isn’t a surprise or really unexpected in any way. What did folks expect that isn’t happening. Not much that I can see.
I expected our offense and defense to play much better than this. I was not as optimistic about the special teams.
I did not expect us to look like Ben McAdoo 2.0.
I was not expecting them to be this bad.
We're not just sub par now. We're at the very bottom.
They need time to rebuild the OL and break in a new QB, but the fan base might not allow them to to do it, ala the outrage versus benching him a year ago.
I expected our offense and defense to play much better than this. I was not as optimistic about the special teams.
I did not expect us to look like Ben McAdoo 2.0.
We saw this last year Eric. No OL, no Offense. And the idea the OL was fixed was a long shot.
Also Betcher and Shurmer were big names with recent success. Suggesting you "knew" they wouldnt help our team is BS.
We also had some key players like Odell returning from injury. Yeah we should have been better.
They need time to rebuild the OL and break in a new QB, but the fan base might not allow them to to do it, ala the outrage versus benching him a year ago.
What kind of a team based business and solid business decisions on what the fans think?
If the giants are hanging onto manning just because they are afraid of backlash then this thing will get a whole lot worse
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I thought they would stink but show signs of improvement and culture change for the better. But, they're worse than I expected, and now it should really drive home it's time (a year too late probably) to start putting the Eli era behind them.
They need time to rebuild the OL and break in a new QB, but the fan base might not allow them to to do it, ala the outrage versus benching him a year ago.
What kind of a team based business and solid business decisions on what the fans think?
If the giants are hanging onto manning just because they are afraid of backlash then this thing will get a whole lot worse
Eli was put back in the starting lineup last season, and the GM and HC fired, and the fan backlash was the last straw catalyst to setting it in motion.
Mara wants asses in the stadium seats, make no mistake it's a huge factor in his thought process.
Eli was done last year -- Rather than face this
Ownership got GM and Coach who gave them happy talk
Many of GM moves were obviously about getting rid of Reese players rather than evaluating players in. a rational way to win
The Giants are now firmly established as one of the very worst teams in the league. Literally any other team would look at the Giants on their schedule and think “that’s a win”, probably an easy win.
It’s not just Shurmur or McAdoo, the rot set in under Coughlin. It’s years of bad drafting, bad decision making and denial about what was really going on.
I just hope this season is the real rock bottom. Last year somehow was not enough of a wake up call for ownership, but there’s no denying it now.
It doesn't help that the guy running our team wears his room temperature IQ like a badge of honor. In a league that's constantly getting smarter and more advanced, it's not exactly comforting to have a luddite at the helm.
Eli was done last year -- Rather than face this
Ownership got GM and Coach who gave them happy talk
Many of GM moves were obviously about getting rid of Reese players rather than evaluating players in. a rational way to win
I agree ..seems like some of the moves were to just get rid of guys without really having a better player to replace them with. I honestly can I had no idea what to expect this season because I really didn't know who half of the players brought in were....Shit I still don't
bottom of the barrel . The offense really shows nothing new
Eli has yet to benefit having a run game and a decent level
of pass protection .
On defense going from a 4-3 to a 3-4 without quality LB's
and no FS add in the loss of JPP and we have zero impact
plays on defense Bringing back Tom Quinn is a head scratchier
at best .
If DG is the same guy he was in Carolina, he should fix the trenches. In order for this thing to get turned around, that must be first and foremost and until that happens, we'll see more of the same. Just out-muscled in the trenches, at least on O. The DLine has some players and could be a force for this team.
Did it not raise eyebrows that two men (Belichick and Coughlin) who value the old school in terms of the trenches and offensive lineman, willing let these players go without any type of a fight to keep them?
It should say something about the (lack of) quality in these players.
But a sucker is born every minute in free agency and desperation is a hell of a drug where you can be talked into thinking a guy is better than he is.
I felt abandoned by my team, the team I loved so much. How could they do this to their fans, put such crappy product on the field year after year after year! And I felt really low, like some kind of idiot, a sucker. I'm feeling like a fool for being a loyal fan of a shit team, a shit franchise, a team that was always shit and always would be shit. I felt like a fool and I knew there was no way out for me, I would be Giants fan forever.
Last night, I was embarrassed. I felt like a fool all over again. The talent sucks. The QB is over the hill. The coaching is suspect at best. The effort isn't there. On national TV, Troy Aikman is calling out the defense for lack of effort. I saw it and everyone watching saw it too.
I did not expect a shit show this year. I did not expect to be embarrassed by lack of effort.
It sucks to be a Giants fan, all over again. I'm not proud of my team. I'm embarrassed by my team.
They need time to rebuild the OL and break in a new QB, but the fan base might not allow them to to do it, ala the outrage versus benching him a year ago.
No surprise here. JonC has had this regime change pegged 100% from last winter and didn't have to post more than 1 or 2 lines at a time to show it.
Shurmur said flat out the OL was the key to the offense and thus the season. I doubt he’s shocked at their talent level.
If no significant moves are made this week, I think it will be appropriate for all of us to go into full mega triggered internet meltdown mode.
Nothing changed much. Improving two of the six OL players, counting the TE in there, wasn't going to change overall performance. (They thought they were getting three effective new OL players, but one looks like a dud.) The 3-4 as opposed to the 4-3 really didn't mean anything for the D, even adding one new decent LB, or cover up not having effective pass rushers. So same old, same old in the pass rush department is not a surprise. The secondary did not get better or more reliable. Barkley has exceeded expectations, but he's just one guy. The passing game should not have been touted as scary good and way better than last year's just because OBJ was expected back. And it isn't.
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That's been the surprise for me.
Did it not raise eyebrows that two men (Belichick and Coughlin) who value the old school in terms of the trenches and offensive lineman, willing let these players go without any type of a fight to keep them?
Especially Jax, they had a ton of cap space and could easily have kept Omameh as depth, but chose to let them go. The Pats weren’t going to pay Solder anyway and he’s proving them right, so far a total bust.
Gettleman and Shurmur gutted too much of the bottom of the roster towards the end of the pre-season. The special teams suck and look like a cast of characters who have hardly played together (because they haven't).
Good thing the shit half measures like Omameh, Latimer, Martin, Stewart, etc. haven't pushed this team into mediocrity.
How about that for basically 2 years in a row.
So getting one and maybe two years out of Eli made sense as of January 2018.
So the risk reward of the strategy was understandable for if we had a rookie Qb this year he would be badly damaged and might not recover his timing/presence.
But I fear that Eli is more shell shocked than they thought
This is a problem for they can probably bring in a better OL and a new QB for next year but not the DL and DBs that are so badly needed.
imho, its going to be 2 more years beyond this one.
Look at the last six drafts...ultimately thats the lead indicator of the product on the field. So far, the 2018 draft looks like a good draft.
I dont see the reason to blame DG so far other than if i believed the verbal optimism verbatim. Who believes what a GM says in public?
So getting one and maybe two years out of Eli made sense as of January 2018.
So the risk reward of the strategy was understandable for if we had a rookie Qb this year he would be badly damaged and might not recover his timing/presence.
But I fear that Eli is more shell shocked than they thought
This is a problem for they can probably bring in a better OL and a new QB for next year but not the DL and DBs that are so badly needed.
imho, its going to be 2 more years beyond this one.
Look at the last six drafts...ultimately thats the lead indicator of the product on the field. So far, the 2018 draft looks like a good draft.
I dont see the reason to blame DG so far other than if i believed the verbal optimism verbatim. Who believes what a GM says in public?
I'll believe it when I see it..."bring in a better OL"...with exception to Hernandez (rook) this mantra has been going on for years.
that committed money is not available for any other rebuilding. that's a lot of money on two risks...the new guy and the old guy.
reasonable if we had an ol and a dl and dbs
With all the angst about peoples contracts as if it was our money...how about an albatross risk on a 37 and 38 year old qb?
Eli's contract is 3 very good starters.
the end of his career was mishandled fifty ways from Sunday
It’s a strange/tough situation as emotional fans...the best thing for the Giants is the blow off the season and pick top 5 again, but it just sucks seeing our boys in blue get embarrassed (especially being down in Philly after Thursday night)
IMO it’s too early to grade DG, but I think he’s on plan. Consider who on the roster is worth building around:
OBJ, Shepard, Engram, Collins, Tomlinson, Apple (to his credit, showed up to play this season) - holdovers from old regime. Debatable if Collins is worth a big FA contract, but those guys can be considered part of future core, assuming they can stay healthy
Saquon, Hernandez, Carter, Hill - early signs look good for 4 of DGs first draft
TBD - Lauletta
That’s 11 guys - 2 All Pro caliber guys (Saquon and OBJ), others ranging from solid starter or potential to be one soon, with some pro bowl potential.
Flipping JPP and his contract for the pick that turned into BJ Hill was a master stroke. Sure JPP has played well so far this year, but anyone wish we still had to pay him next season?
Ogletree has been as expected IMHO - solid if not spectacular plus new defensive leader we needed. Worth the trade. He is what we thought he was, which is a positive
Free agency looks like a whiff so far. Omameh and Solder have been worse than expected. Much worse. That stings right now. And few of the UDFAs/journeyman are giving us much so far (Curtis Riley - yikes)
Point being, overall DG hasn’t done a bad job with year 1 of rebuilding a seriously flawed roster, but a lot of work left.
All that being said, ultimate success/failure depends on the QB transition - to who, and when.
But I don’t think it’s fair to call DG (or even Shurmur) a failure after 5 games.
Now we are all finding out that Barkley can't do it all himself, the interior of the line can't pass block to save its life and isn't much better run blocking, there is no right tackle, Shepard can't outrun his grandmother, there is no third wideout, rookies and players who won't be here in a year or two everywhere and a HC whose resume screams "meh" having to deal with a team that Reese and McAdoo left a total wreck.
You knew if anything went wrong, Eli was going to be this season's scapegoat because he's "old". Whatever. It is the BBI way.
It is going to take a serious talent infusion to get this team winning again. That means DG needs another good draft and needs to do a better job in the FA market and finding UDFA who turn into players. Shurmur needs to do a better job in player evaluation. No one can be impressed with either of them in those regards at the moment.
So, no, no surprise.
Three years at top 5 money isn't a win for the Giants if he's playing bottom half of the league quality. For that price tag the Giants should have negotiated a mechanism to get out after 2.
It was a bad signing in the same neighborhood as Vernon (a player I like a lot).
Easy exits were Abrams specialty, but the desperation of this team has eroded any leverage.
Eli was done last year -- Rather than face this
Ownership got GM and Coach who gave them happy talk
Many of GM moves were obviously about getting rid of Reese players rather than evaluating players in. a rational way to win
THIS POST more than any other I have seen vividly explains the irrational Giants fans this season.
On one hand, acknowledge that Eli was done and that the team was bad, but then on the other, have this belief that the team could have found a way to win this season.
This raised expectations beyond any rational level, and explains the incessant whining on this site.
The Giants won 3 games last year, and were probably lucky to ge that many. Yes, the team was THAT BAD.
The front office did what they could in one off-season. This is a 3-4 year full rebuild, and anyone who is allowing themselves to be deluded otherwise is using rose-colored glasses.
This off-season is going to be a full-on Dallas Cowboys 1980's style tear-down. Any vet who is not likely to be performing at a high level in 3 years will be let go or traded. They probably wanted to do that last year, but the cap didn't have to space to absorb the accelerated cap hits.
This offseason, the only players who cannot be cut for financial reasons are OBJ, Barkley and Solder. Solder might go after the 2019 season, when the guaranteed money runs out.
OBJ and Barkley are the building blocks for the next competitive team. The off-season will be about rebuilding the OL and DL/rush LB, and maybe a WR. The next off-season (after a just as bad 2019, resulting in yet another top 5 pick) will be about the QB and DBs, and depth building. 2020 will be when they start to make a move, while the young QB learns- and move forward from there.
Anyone who expects or even hopes for anything earlier than that is not seeing the true picture.
The Giants are going to run Eli out there for two reasons- one, they don't want Lauletta to get hurt out there- if Eli goes down, there is no long term impact on the team, they just cut him in the off-season. Two, with Eli being so gun-shy, they will lose and lose a lot. Sounds harsh, but the reality is the team needs a very high pick, and at this stage, Eli does NOT help them win games. Sorry, but that's the hard truth.
Do you get it now?
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The contract he gave Solder is a big red flag with the exception they apparently can exit it after three seasons.
Three years at top 5 money isn't a win for the Giants if he's playing bottom half of the league quality. For that price tag the Giants should have negotiated a mechanism to get out after 2.
It was a bad signing in the same neighborhood as Vernon (a player I like a lot).
Easy exits were Abrams specialty, but the desperation of this team has eroded any leverage.
I didn't say it was a win, I frankly dislike the deal along with OV's and been vocal about it, to a point. After the complaining is tiresome.
For this year I was thinking something in the 6 to 7 win range. There should have been some big upgrades with odell coming back plus Barkley solder and ogletree coming in. Those would be offset by the continued decline of manning plus some small age related declines of some of our good players on d.
I thought this team had zero upside potential, so I'm not too upset about the losing. I've pretty much been in tank mode since losing to Dallas. What I'm bothered by is the lack of a plan and the leadership we have in place. I think its very likely that we are going into a redskins like period where we are either bad or mediocre for the foreseeable future.
What games of this early schedule did you think this tea was winning?
Oh for sure -- I was just commenting on getting out after 3 years not being a contractual advantage to the team.
The Solder deal is a deeply bad contract. He's going to be 32 and in his 10th NFL season in his 3rd and hopefully last season of the contract, which would still cost the Giants 4M in dead money to get out of.
I echo the hope management and ownership has the guts to make the hard financial and interpersonal decisions to get back on track.
Yeah. Whether Solder was a bad sign will ultimately be revealed, but we had ZERO choice, if we were not re-signing Pugh and were giving up on Flowers as our OLT
I felt we'd be playing around .500 ball...give or take a game.
I don't recall anyone on this site back in August predicting one win by midseason.
That's the crux of it ... I'd rather not spend in that situation, desperation isn't a great excuse. What's your take on that, given your financial know-how?
I thought the defense would be a little bit better. All we heard in camp is that we would be aggressive sending blitzers at the QB from various angles. Haven't really seen that. Don't think we have as much confidence in the man to man coverage abilities of our secondary.
I thought with these two improvements, it'd be enough to approach 8-8, 9-7. But, it's clear this is a limited roster with a few star players and a quarterback that is on the down side of a great career.
I was of the mindset that this team was nowhere close to being ready to support a QB taken @ the top of the draft and I (as fictional GM) would have ran Manning into the ground this season(which is still painful to watch) while getting the rest of the team, staff, cap/talent repaired and ready for next year.
I think the win now narratives(one more run with Eli) have been false since day one, but owners & GM can't really publicly say what I think they are really thinking & working towards.
The improved offense was always dependent on a good OL, and at best you could only be hopefully optimistic before week 1.
What other defenses had done was to focus all of their attention on Odell. With Saquon in the picture, combined with Engram and Shepard, I think most us expected the offense to at least be middle of the pact even with an offensive line that most of us expected to be still the weak spot.
Anyone who watched Solder and especially Omameh should have anticipated the underachieving to the cost.
Omameh was a bad football player at Jax. Markedly bad.
Eagles - SB Champs
Jaguars - Conference Champs
Saints - but for fluke play would have played for Conference Title
Carolina - Playoff team
Cowboys - Division rival
Reminder - team was 3-13 last year.
I expected our offense and defense to play much better than this. I was not as optimistic about the special teams.
I did not expect us to look like Ben McAdoo 2.0.
I cannot figure how anyone could build positive expectations given that virtually all of Reese's draft picks are failures. And yes, that includes that whirling Durbish, Beckham. I wish we either traded him last Spring or franchise him and not give him that new contract. There was and remains no core 'group' of players and leaders on this club. It is a loose confederation of a warring tribe with each individual looking out for themselves. There are no Strahans. There are no Banks. Yes, we had LT, but he was surrounded by talent and other leaders. This team has no leadership and is very low on talent. The record illustrates that. And when players bitch about the refereeing ignoring their own mistakes and inability, that says it all. I look forward to the Gints getting the first overall pick so we can then bitch about QB all over again. As for me, I would prefer not to take create a "David Carr" tragic scenario until we get more talent. That to me is the strategic question for this team.