Daily, there is a group of posters who state as fact that Mara mandated that Eli stay, the team be built around him and that the new GM and coach be on board with that strategy.
I have a couple questions for these conspiracy theorists:
1) Why would Gettleman, a man who could retire, take a job as a puppet, especially since it contradicts his entire personality as well as his tenure in Carolina
2) Why would Shurmur, a failed coach in Cleveland, sign up to take a job that would effectively end his dreams of ever being a successful NFL coach, since two-time failures don't get other chances.
Basically, to believe that Mara is calling the shots and it was a mandate to keep Eli, two men are banking their career and reputation on something they don't control. Why would they do that?
bw has said numerous times that Gettleman accepted the terms because he needed a job. And while there isn't a shred of evidence of that, it still doesn't explain Shurmur. In fact, Shurmur doesn't check any of the boxes the conspirators say:
- No ties to the team
- Not hand picked by Mara
basically, because we picked Barkley and not a QB is the only thing they can tangibly point to, and that pick is looking like we indeed got the guy who was the best player in the draft and one that Gettleman saw as a generational talent
I'd really like to hear how the fuck this ridiculous premise gets repeated here daily.
-Signing Solder
-Trading for Ogletree
-Extending Beckham
How could anyone not see that the Giants were retooling? How can anyone sell that 1-5 is acceptable bc of the roster turnover? That’s bullshit. The expectation was to make the playoffs this year.
Of course they were re-tooling.
They also gutted a huge part of the roster...some 30 new players? That's rebuilding.
There aren't anymore five year rebuilding programs. You're rebuilding/retooling every single year. Depending on your roster, the success rate varies. And there are some teams where it's going to take a couple years. That's where the Giants are.
I think DG may have sold himself to Mara by saying they could win next year, even with Eli....but guess what, it's a job interview. Promise the world. He got the job.
He also got the best player in the draft. And he knows now he needs to get a QB.
Behind door A: nothing
Behind door B:
- millions of dollars
- a really fun job
- a job that is the passion of your life
- a job you will probably never be offered again
- competitive juices of being part of a team
- camaraderie with the types of dudes you've spent your whole life around
- the spotlight
- a chance to make hilarious quips about donuts and pretzels
- a chance (slim) to win a championship, experience that elation and retire at the top of your profession
And according to the OP, its inconceivable that he would agree to one condition in order to walk through door B? Are you kidding?
Behind door A: nothing
Behind door B:
- millions of dollars
- a really fun job
- a job that is the passion of your life
- a job you will probably never be offered again
- competitive juices of being part of a team
- camaraderie with the types of dudes you've spent your whole life around
- the spotlight
- a chance to make hilarious quips about donuts and pretzels
- a chance (slim) to win a championship, experience that elation and retire at the top of your profession
And according to the OP, its inconceivable that he would agree to one condition in order to walk through door B? Are you kidding?
You're leaving out the millions of dollars he was still getting from his last job that he got fired from for not wanting to cede power to the owner.
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who has a bright future...
we'd at least be building toward something with the most important position nailed down.
as opposed to what we have currently in place.
maybe we're going in a direction similar to Dallas. Get a generational RB, build the Offensive line (still a big work in progress) then get a QB who will have Talent at the WR, TE and slot positions and a great RB with a good O-Line, it would make it easier for a young QB to step in.
Just my thoughts
Let's hope not - that OL is starting to fray, and they really don't have much for the years they spent building it.
I’m fine with sucking hard for 2 years and at the end of it coming away with SB and a top QB along with cleared cap room to fortify the OL.
Everyone keep saying we “wasted” a year which also doesn’t fully make sense. Getting a generational talent on the roster isn’t a waste, and having that in place can expedite how quickly Eli’s replacement can come into his own.
There’s so many ways this can go but unless ya perfectly written in stone for the dolts to read, they label it a failure.
I said it in the game thread.
We are headed for a top 2 pick. Let's say we grab Justin Herbert from Oregon...and he turns out to be just as good as Baker Mayfield, Darnold and Allen
We'd be set for the future with a good QB, an all world RB and a top 3 WR in Odell
Looking forward to the 2019 draft
Accorsi is just as tied to Gettleman as Manning. And as far as Manning being QB, only a dolt would think that they would not give him a chance with the new regime especially with all the money invested in Eli the upcoming two years.
Also, anyone watching these games has to see by now that Barkley was the correct pick at #2. A 235 lb RB that can run over LBs or simply out run them as well as DBs? What will happen when the get a half assed line? 200 yds as a norm.
I also think Eli is done this year. After last night it is clear he cannot operate anymore. He continues to overthrow open receivers and just make poor throws. He has been abused for 4 or 5 years and just cannot stand in to make plays anymore. It would not surprise me to see him let go before the $5 mill roster bonus is due in March.
Not because I thought there was one, but because I heard people like Phil Simms, Boomer Easion and Cowherd suggest as much.
I was told by respected posters here that it seems as if there is enough to make an educated guess that it might be so.
I hope FMIC is correct, it would be indicative of bigger problems than the Giants now have.
And FMIC, surly you see the difference between being 1-5 with Eli as opposed to the same record with a rookie in place
Accorsi is just as tied to Gettleman as Manning. And as far as Manning being QB, only a dolt would think that they would not give him a chance with the new regime especially with all the money invested in Eli the upcoming two years.
Also, anyone watching these games has to see by now that Barkley was the correct pick at #2. A 235 lb RB that can run over LBs or simply out run them as well as DBs? What will happen when the get a half assed line? 200 yds as a norm.
I also think Eli is done this year. After last night it is clear he cannot operate anymore. He continues to overthrow open receivers and just make poor throws. He has been abused for 4 or 5 years and just cannot stand in to make plays anymore. It would not surprise me to see him let go before the $5 mill roster bonus is due in March.
Who said anything about Mara 'demanding' Eli be retained?
As for this:
I'm pretty sure this has been proven incorrect. For starters, Mara's brother has a VP title in the scouting department. Second, John Mara has openly said that he's a part of the decision making process come draft time, and he's made statements during player negotiations. He's not a hands-off owner, nor does he have to be.
Sorry, you can't include Mara in that sentence with a straight face. Or you have no idea how Jints Central operates.
Giants football is all Mara knows. This is his business - the family business. His fingerprints are everywhere. Tisch has considerably more other interests business wise.
Quote:
Start with the donut man.
Behind door A: nothing
Behind door B:
- millions of dollars
- a really fun job
- a job that is the passion of your life
- a job you will probably never be offered again
- competitive juices of being part of a team
- camaraderie with the types of dudes you've spent your whole life around
- the spotlight
- a chance to make hilarious quips about donuts and pretzels
- a chance (slim) to win a championship, experience that elation and retire at the top of your profession
And according to the OP, its inconceivable that he would agree to one condition in order to walk through door B? Are you kidding?
You're leaving out the millions of dollars he was still getting from his last job that he got fired from for not wanting to cede power to the owner.
So your position is that gentleman is not making any additional money by signing a multi year contract with the giants?
No one thinks Mara's holding a gun to the heads to an unwilling Shurmur and Gettleman.
I'm literally laughing at the thought of Pat and Dave mouthing at their press conferences like a hostage video.
What's disconcerting is 1) Pat and Dave actually thought Manning would succeed with team as constructed 2) the possibility supporting a future with Manning was a consideration for Mara when choosing a new GM and coach.
Will try to suggest a plausible explanation to your other questions.
I dont think Mara said if I hire you then you must keep Eli and you cannot draft a QB. I would say he indicated that he preferred with stay with Eli for this year and do what we can to get this team back on track now without a repeat of what we experienced last season. Drafting a QB in the first round will provide longer term dividends and the kid would most likely sit behind Eli for at least a year.
I dont think Mara told Shurmur that he had to start Eli either. Shurmur took the job and he is not making decisions on who we draft. Input? Sure.. but in the end he is playing the cards he is dealt.
One of the reasons why I feel it is very possible that Mara has his hands in this is because I listened closely to one of his press conferences late last right after the Eli benching. He indicated that he and Jerry basically said to McAdoo that they wanted to see someone else in there. He also said he did not expect the fans to get so emotional over the decision. This tells me he is not an owner that just sits back and has no voice. He is not Jerry Jones but he is involved to some extent.
Mara is selling football hope to the fans. The best way to do that coming into this season was...
1. Assure the fans that Eli is the starting QB
2. Draft an exciting player who can come in and make an immediate impact.
3. Bring in a few free agents to also give the fans some hope about the teams future
4. Show a significant improvement on the field in 2018 even if they do not make the playoffs
Sean : 4:27 pm : link : reply
Come on. Look at the money spent this past offseason.
-Signing Solder
-Trading for Ogletree
-Extending Beckham
How could anyone not see that the Giants were retooling? How can anyone sell that 1-5 is acceptable bc of the roster turnover? That’s bullshit. The expectation was to make the playoffs this year.
Why wouldn't you extend Beckham for the future? Sign an OL and upgrade a LB all with players expected to be here for several years?
Again - if we make those moves and draft a QB, the narrative is different.
The only thing that keeps people saying we are trying to win now from saying that we are retooling is having Eli as the starter. That's it.
From what we've sen of Barkley, he is exactly as advertised and people should realize that if we get a QB next year, then the team has a plan and isn't trying to cement Manning's legacy or appease him and Archie as has been intimated.
Giants were on national TV about 5 times last year and unemployed football-lifer DG only managed to catch the Philly game.
Yeah right.
And count me in as one who believes that if it wasn't a Mara mandate, then surely DG and PS were telling Mara what he wanted to hear during the interview process.
The thought that both wouldn't have still taken their respective jobs with the Giants under an "Eli stays" mandate (or strong recommendation) is laughable.
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I dont think Mara said if I hire you then you must keep Eli and you cannot draft a QB. I would say he indicated that he preferred with stay with Eli for this year and do what we can to get this team back on track now without a repeat of what we experienced last season. Drafting a QB in the first round will provide longer term dividends and the kid would most likely sit behind Eli for at least a year.
From what we've sen of Barkley, he is exactly as advertised and people should realize that if we get a QB next year, then the team has a plan and isn't trying to cement Manning's legacy or appease him and Archie as has been intimated.
Right and I think their plan almost worked if only the patch job on the OL worked out. If it did then just think...
1. Eli would feel more protected and possible would be going through progressions and looking downfield a bit.
2. Barkley would be looking at 100 yards per game on the ground every week and possibly pushing 150.
If this happens, not only are you putting up more points but this team finally starts to control the clock and time of possession which we have not done in forever.
Quote:
Seriously, FMiC?
Sean : 4:27 pm : link : reply
Come on. Look at the money spent this past offseason.
-Signing Solder
-Trading for Ogletree
-Extending Beckham
How could anyone not see that the Giants were retooling? How can anyone sell that 1-5 is acceptable bc of the roster turnover? That’s bullshit. The expectation was to make the playoffs this year.
Why wouldn't you extend Beckham for the future? Sign an OL and upgrade a LB all with players expected to be here for several years?
Again - if we make those moves and draft a QB, the narrative is different.
The only thing that keeps people saying we are trying to win now from saying that we are retooling is having Eli as the starter. That's it.
Why do people keep complaining about the talent level
on the roster and then turn around and criticize the Giants for extending Beckham? He is a top 5 WR in the game in his prime and some would have been perfectly happy to just let him walk via free agency or to trade him away for a late 1st round pick. Great now let's use that pick on a WR that we hope is half as good as Beckham while Beckham continues to put up huge numbers.
- He was fired from Carolina for disobeying the owner
- He did not let sentimentality drive his moves. He did not resign Steve Smith or DeAngelo Williams and fell on the sword regarding Thomas Davis and Greg Olsen
- The main gripe regarding him is that he was too business-like and got right to the point in conversations. Doesn't seem like he's much of a warm, fuzzy guy obsessed with preserving a legacy
- He not only was fired for standing up to ownership in Carolina, he is still being paid by the team and at 67 years old and with health issues, there's little motivation for him to ride out his final days as a puppet
- He prided himself on evaluating Barkley as the top prospect he's seen since Peyton Manning
It is odd that to create this narrative many have - it is not just unlike Gettleman, it is in DIRECT conflict with the way he has acted his entire career. For a guy known to be stubborn, changing his complete behavior isn't likely. Yet it doesn't stop the people from saying it.
And we all remember how jolted and rattled he was at that podium talking about the Eli benching and fan/media revolt. He was despondent. And I know people don't like to hear this, or avoid it for convenience, but John certainly remembers the fan revolt in '78 and how that impacted Welli. So he has always been extra, extra sensitive how the paying Giants fan views the organization.
So he had fresh in his mind after McAdoo and Reese were sent packing, that Eli was still a very big deal to the fans and going out this way was just the wrong way for a NYG icon.
So what it is unreasonable to extrapolate that Mara wanted Eli to have another chance - a better chance - to go out on a higher note? And the best way to insure this was to find football people who also still believed in Eli?
I really don't understand why this would be so far fetched...
I wish we could wave a wand and have a great OL and I bet Eli would still stink. And with another wand bring in an elite QB and see how this team would thrive
The D knows that they cannot give up 10 points because Mr 3 and out will shit the bed besides spotting the opponent points. By the 4th quarter they are depressed and done
Something tells me you have never played a team sport in your life...
And apparently, he owes the Manning family something. You've alluded to that numerous times, including intimating that Archie actually calls the shots.
Mara's loyalty as well as his influence is overstated here.
Not to mention, painting ownership as incompetent yet saying they have some master plan that people are to follow is disingenuous at best.
I've never seen it uttered that Jints Central has won a Super Bowl in every decade since the 70's ended, despite it being true.
You post just to call people idiots and jump down their throats.
I don't think it was a 'mandate' at all. But of course Mara was going to ask the prospective GM's in their interviews what their opinion of Eli is going forward, and it wouldn't make any sense to hire a new GM who wanted to draft a QB this past draft. So, he hired someone who has/had the same opinion; that Eli still had it. That's not a mandate. That's hiring a GM who shares the same mindset that he does. Nothing wrong with that.
You post just to call people idiots and jump down their throats.
If the shoe fits wear it pal...!!!!
You post just to call people idiots and jump down their throats.
Post this*
My question is (and the point of this thread), why is is posted so often here that keeping Eli was a condition for this year?
It is literally posted here daily. Isn't that the exact same thing you are bitching about?
Quote:
If you have no interest in hearing out the other side?
You post just to call people idiots and jump down their throats.
If the shoe fits wear it pal...!!!!
Cool story bro.
I actually even agree that their wasn’t a mandate but more likely Gettleman/Shurmur saying what they thought Mara wanted to hear, but posting this non stop to point and laugh “morons” is childish.
In fact, that also has been stated here that DG was the hire from Day 1 and everything else was a smoke screen.
Two completely different things.
To be honest one of the biggest problems in bad teams are owners hiring guys their familiar with or think the same.
But hiring people who still believed in Eli (or at least said they did) isn't much different than a "Eli stays" mandate.
The end result is the same.
But, I agree that the end result may all work out if we can draft Herbert.
Some of them I've tried to counter in the past couple of weeks include that we couldn't run block at all against NO. That Snacks didn't play the 4Q (and even more) of the CAR game, and that's why we couldn't stop the run.
In the past year we've had all kinds of speculation about what went down with the Eli benching, with opinion and speculation slowly becoming accepted fact about what really happened.
And now we regularly hear all kinds of variations on an Eli mandate.
For those more reasonable opinions - like that DG or PS told the owners what they wanted to hear - this isn't about you.
This place has literally seen more than a handful of posters putting out there as fact that there was a requirement that whoever came in as coach must believe in and play Eli as a condition for their hire.
It is not a reasonable viewpoint. It is irrational. It may not be a majority opinion, but to pretend that it isn't regularly stated around here as fact is wrong. If you spend much time reading here you could literally see it posted every day.
FMiC is definitely doing his best to put an end to that viewpoint. He's right to do so.
In fact, that also has been stated here that DG was the hire from Day 1 and everything else was a smoke screen.
My thoughts on the hiring process...
Mara did not wake up one day and decide to fire Reese. It was something that he probably began to consider from the time he fired Coughlin. So the man was thinking about possible replacements for a while. So, that being said...
1. I believe DG was on Mara's short list for a while along with 1 or 2 others who may or may not have been available when the Giants finally made a move on Reese.
2. I believe Mara was sincere in his interviews with the other candidates.
3. I believe Acorsi's endorsement tipped the scales towards Gettleman.
Stop painting things in absolutes. Sure, there are people who claim Mara is a puppet master, pulling the strings, and those under him are toady lackeys doing his bidding. But there are a lot more who see Mara as a guy who is involved in running the team and is involved in setting the direction of the team. It's not that far fetched to think Mara started out with a notion of how things should go and then bring in like minded guys. Instead of looking at it with a view that Gettleman and Shurmur came in at odds with Mara and took the job anyway because, hey, it's a prestigious job, look at it from a point of view that they agreed with the idea that they could improve the team while keeping Eli for now.
My wife came up with the idea of going on vacation to Greece. I said, hey, good idea. Does that mean she mandated the trip?
Two completely different things.
Yeah, I was only giving my opinion on how it went down.
Hey, there's been alot of crazy posted over the past year. As recent as a couple of weeks ago, there have been people posting that Eli has "4-5 years left" and will "get extended." That this is same as prime Eli.
I mean. What are you gonna do? It's clearly been a rough period of Giants football and it's making some folks a bit wacky.
(1) He is not ready for retirement and no other team was knocking on his door.
(2) He is unhappy with how things turned out in Carolina and wants another chance to redeemed himself.
(3) The Giants GM job is his dream job.
(4) He believed that he can kick the can down the road with Eli for the next year or two. .
The bottom line is the team sucks. The “Eli sucks” crowd is miserable so is the “Eli walks on water” crowd. At this point, there can be only one conclusion, we need to move on from Eli.
They aren’t able to change the GM/coach after one year. The OL takes years to rebuild. What’s left to change besides Eli?
Let’s be frank, none of us thought the season would turn out this way. It is shocking that Eli would continue to play like this with all these changes around him.
Will try to suggest a plausible explanation to your other questions.
I dont think Mara said if I hire you then you must keep Eli and you cannot draft a QB. I would say he indicated that he preferred with stay with Eli for this year and do what we can to get this team back on track now without a repeat of what we experienced last season. Drafting a QB in the first round will provide longer term dividends and the kid would most likely sit behind Eli for at least a year.
I dont think Mara told Shurmur that he had to start Eli either. Shurmur took the job and he is not making decisions on who we draft. Input? Sure.. but in the end he is playing the cards he is dealt.
One of the reasons why I feel it is very possible that Mara has his hands in this is because I listened closely to one of his press conferences late last right after the Eli benching. He indicated that he and Jerry basically said to McAdoo that they wanted to see someone else in there. He also said he did not expect the fans to get so emotional over the decision. This tells me he is not an owner that just sits back and has no voice. He is not Jerry Jones but he is involved to some extent.
Mara is selling football hope to the fans. The best way to do that coming into this season was...
1. Assure the fans that Eli is the starting QB
2. Draft an exciting player who can come in and make an immediate impact.
3. Bring in a few free agents to also give the fans some hope about the teams future
4. Show a significant improvement on the field in 2018 even if they do not make the playoffs
Think this is most plausible if it was even the case.
Obviously this guy can't handle the fact that management including DG and PS decided want to stay with Eli for now.
2. Gettleman has shown he can tell the boss to go screw. He's no one's puppet. He's also not a beginner at refashioning teams. He is doing that with the Giants now. He is not error-free. No one is.
3. Schumer is not worrying about his next job. He has a good one now if he can keep it. He showed how to improve and revive a damaged, ineffective offense with Minny and deal with loss of a starting QB. He did a similarly good job with the Eagles offense twice. At Cleveland he was just one of a long line of six (count 'em) "failed" Head Coaches. That mess was not a result of poor team management and leadership at the Head Coach level. (I'd look up the ladder there.)
I’d still be critical of certain moves, but a failure at the top to face reality is even more worrisome. You can analyze the team through a different lens. Look at the Rangers - they’ve committed to a rebuild, communicated it to the fans. You can enjoy seeing a team grow and develop despite fully expecting a bad season.
I’m not sure what the Giants internal expectations were this year. I view moves as signing Solder to a huge deal and even trading for Ogletree as moves more consistent with an immediate competitive window. I view Stewart the same way - coupled with just awful player analysis by Gettleman in his case.
The front office did not change over that much. Reese is gone. Ross is gone. Mark Koncz is new. But everyone else listed on the Giants site under “Football Operations” has been with the franchise for years. And yes, I understand that franchises don’t usually turnover their entire front office in one off-season, but the Giants seem to have significantly more stability than the results have warranted. This off-season was not the gutting of the franchise that I felt was needed after failing post-2011. Was everyone else doing a great job but Reese was overruling everyone and leading the team into disaster? That’s doubtful.
I don’t think the franchise deserves a leash from fans because it’s a new regime because it’s really not all that new. And more importantly, there haven’t been sufficient signals to suggest they thought they needed more time to put together a winning team. Maybe the wrong thread for it (I concur with the original post, I think it’s unlikely the owner mandated Eli start), but an alternative where Gettleman thought Eli was going to be a good QB again is a concerning and more plausible scenario to me.
I’d still be critical of certain moves, but a failure at the top to face reality is even more worrisome. You can analyze the team through a different lens. Look at the Rangers - they’ve committed to a rebuild, communicated it to the fans. You can enjoy seeing a team grow and develop despite fully expecting a bad season.
I’m not sure what the Giants internal expectations were this year. I view moves as signing Solder to a huge deal and even trading for Ogletree as moves more consistent with an immediate competitive window. I view Stewart the same way - coupled with just awful player analysis by Gettleman in his case.
The front office did not change over that much. Reese is gone. Ross is gone. Mark Koncz is new. But everyone else listed on the Giants site under “Football Operations” has been with the franchise for years. And yes, I understand that franchises don’t usually turnover their entire front office in one off-season, but the Giants seem to have significantly more stability than the results have warranted. This off-season was not the gutting of the franchise that I felt was needed after failing post-2011. Was everyone else doing a great job but Reese was overruling everyone and leading the team into disaster? That’s doubtful.
I don’t think the franchise deserves a leash from fans because it’s a new regime because it’s really not all that new. And more importantly, there haven’t been sufficient signals to suggest they thought they needed more time to put together a winning team. Maybe the wrong thread for it (I concur with the original post, I think it’s unlikely the owner mandated Eli start), but an alternative where Gettleman thought Eli was going to be a good QB again is a concerning and more plausible scenario to me.
Very well said.