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A couple quick observations on OBJ and Eli

B in ALB : 10/12/2018 5:30 pm
Meant to post this as a thread.

Watched the releases of OBJ last night and it seems that he just doesn't have the explosion that he had before the injury. He is routinely yoked up at the line and bodied by a CB playing man. He's being physically bullied at the LoS and it's taking longer for him to get open. He was almost an automatic separation from the defensive backfield and I can't help but think the injury is really still affecting his quickness of the line.

I watched a few extra shots of "pressures" on Eli and he's clearly seeing/pressure that isn't there on many occasions. In many examples, all he needs to do is step up and avoid the ends rushing upfield. He used to be excellent at this and his footwork in the pocket more than made up for his lack of mobility outside the pocket. And now that is exacerbated by an OL that routinely gives up pressure from Guard to Guard. On more than one play, Eli had open receivers down the field running corner routes, post-corners, sevens, etc, and for some reason he didn't throw the ball. He's clearly playing shook - perhaps scared as he winds down his career - and I'm not completely opposed to giving the rookie a look at some point this season.

So we've got a QB/WR battery where one is possibly still feeling the effects of an injury and the other is playing as if he's afraid of being injured. This coupled with a team that is lacking any semblance of leadership and was easily exposed as indifferent shortly after halftime leads me to not completely dismiss the possibility that they will go 1-15.
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RE: Could it be that OBJ  
section125 : 10/12/2018 6:07 pm : link
In comment 14125494 Rover said:
Quote:
Is just getting challenged more aggressively by the CBS instead of being given a cushion because the defense knows Eli is fun shy and that even if OBJ burns his man he still wonít get the ball?


opposite, soft coverage with a big cushion is what I see.
RE: B  
ajr2456 : 10/12/2018 6:07 pm : link
In comment 14125488 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Qb's don't usually come back mentally where Eli is now? Would that be accurate? Going into this year my thought was that physically Manning is fine, but mentally he was gun shy. Now in my brain I don't remember seeing shell shocked Qb's return to form. It seems like it's one of those point of no return situations


Never followed any other team close enough, but Iíd gather itís very hard.
RE: RE: B  
crick n NC : 10/12/2018 6:10 pm : link
In comment 14125500 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14125488 crick n NC said:


Quote:


Qb's don't usually come back mentally where Eli is now? Would that be accurate? Going into this year my thought was that physically Manning is fine, but mentally he was gun shy. Now in my brain I don't remember seeing shell shocked Qb's return to form. It seems like it's one of those point of no return situations



Never followed any other team close enough, but Iíd gather itís very hard.


Logically it seems that is true. I guess I am at the point now where I don't know how effective Manning would be anywhere. The ghosts would still follow him
B  
crick n NC : 10/12/2018 6:12 pm : link
To flip this around. How about Saquon Barkley!? Throw out a couple of quick observations on him.
Eli's internal clock is messed up  
SHO'NUFF : 10/12/2018 6:39 pm : link
He needs a reset, i.e. a new team.
I agree that Beckum is not the same  
arniefez : 10/12/2018 6:41 pm : link
and it's crazy they gave him all that money without finding out if he was the same player. It will be interesting to see if that elite burst ever comes back.
I think this OL has  
short lease : 10/12/2018 6:45 pm : link
Absolutely left Eli gun shy. He doesn't trust them so he gives up on the play to soon. And, I don't think he will start trusting them again anytime soon.

It has been going on to long. Not with this specific bunch but, it has been a porous line over years for a while now.
RE: B  
ajr2456 : 10/12/2018 6:48 pm : link
In comment 14125507 crick n NC said:
Quote:
To flip this around. How about Saquon Barkley!? Throw out a couple of quick observations on him.


Incredible. I think thereís still some work to for him in learning to run between the tackles (also the blocking needs to improve) but man the tiniest sliver of room has the potential to break.

The long catch and run where the eagle had his arm wrapped around and he threw him off like a fly.
I would LOVE  
Jim Bur(n)t : 10/12/2018 6:49 pm : link
To see the Coaches Tape as to who is/isn't open & how much Eli missed. Again, I am convinced that he doesn't see the field well AT ALL.
RE: I would LOVE  
ajr2456 : 10/12/2018 6:50 pm : link
In comment 14125540 Jim Bur(n)t said:
Quote:
To see the Coaches Tape as to who is/isn't open & how much Eli missed. Again, I am convinced that he doesn't see the field well AT ALL.


Getting gamepass on the company card comes in clutch
Nonsense on OBJ  
WillieYoung : 10/12/2018 7:20 pm : link
He has had enormous separation this year. i think he got frustrated. If he beat the physical corner he still had 1 and sometime 2 guys over the top.
It's not all on Eli  
nicky43 : 10/12/2018 7:25 pm : link
The receivers couldn't get open in the 2 seconds our o-line gave Eli to find a target. The O-line still can't create holes for our runners. Barkley's good runs were of his own incredible talent. And I was surprised our Defense did so poorly. You can't give up 30 points in the game and I thought our defense was coming together nice.

Yea, Eli missed a few targets and the defense still has tackling problems but I thought we'd do much better this week. The Carolina game made me forget how bad our O-Line is and the Eagles D line is great!
OBJ? I'm guessing the soggy turf was a little slower  
CT Charlie : 10/12/2018 7:30 pm : link
than usual last night. Also, when coverage is soft the DB's have a moving start. He looked super quick in finishing off the first down plays in the second half, when defenders were right on top of him and he spun like Saquon and snagged what we needed.
When the coaches tape gets out...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/12/2018 7:44 pm : link
I'll try to see more of his separation. I have also had some concern about his return from injury. Why I'm feeling optimistic:

1. The Giants made a big financial commitment to him. Not sure they would have done that if they had any idea there was a lack of explosion.

2. Other teams are still focused on stopping him. This was mentioned after the game by both Shurmur and OBJ. I have also seen it when watching tape. I'll be more convinced when I see opponents leaving him in single coverage and he's not getting open.

3. In past weeks he's had a few times when he was not doubled and he has been able to get open.

4. This week he showed some explosion in the limited views I have available to me. Here's a couple of them.



See how he gets past the defender quickly? Granted, the defense knows he has help over the top, but he's got no troubles getting off and has an easy step quickly. Looks explosive to me.



In this play you can see how quickly he has a step on the defender. The safety comes over the top right away for help and the ball is underthrown, but in single coverage and with a well-placed ball you'd see OBJ running to the end zone. No sign that the defender was going to run him down. Again, looks good to me.



Here we see him plant his foot which gets the defender leaning the wrong way, then cut in on the slant, immediately gaining separation from the defender.

I don't know - I don't see the kinds of things seen when other WR slowed down. He's not having trouble in these clips getting separation imo.
I donít see it  
UConn4523 : 10/12/2018 7:53 pm : link
but everyone looks like shit but Barkley so I think thatís a factor to how things can be perceived. Eliís also thrown a ton of bad balls to him, which also makes everything look bad.

As other have said he came out guns blazing against Jacksonville and routinely beat that secondary. I donít buy the ďdeclineĒ.
Agree  
Joey in VA : 10/12/2018 8:06 pm : link
On Odell 100%, he's not the same player he was pre-injury. It could be mental, injuries like that do tend to make you hesitant to let it all fly but he's not earning his paycheck right now.
RE: When the coaches tape gets out...  
santacruzom : 10/12/2018 8:25 pm : link
In comment 14125580 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
I'll try to see more of his separation. I have also had some concern about his return from injury. Why I'm feeling optimistic:

1. The Giants made a big financial commitment to him. Not sure they would have done that if they had any idea there was a lack of explosion.



The Giants may not be very good at evaluating their own players, so I'm not reflexively comforted when they sign one to a big contract.
Agree on both counts  
SomeFan : 10/12/2018 8:44 pm : link
and had same thoughts watching last nightís game
RE: RE: When the coaches tape gets out...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/12/2018 8:49 pm : link
In comment 14125604 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 14125580 Dan in the Springs said:


Quote:


I'll try to see more of his separation. I have also had some concern about his return from injury. Why I'm feeling optimistic:

1. The Giants made a big financial commitment to him. Not sure they would have done that if they had any idea there was a lack of explosion.





The Giants may not be very good at evaluating their own players, so I'm not reflexively comforted when they sign one to a big contract.


True, but they have access to analytics which they use. These include speed measurements - top speed and acceleration numbers. I'm pretty sure they at least looked at those numbers closely to see that he was back to at least close to what he was prior to making the commitment.

I'm going to go back through some of the plays I remembered where I thought he showed some explosion in earlier games. I'll either post a few examples or I'll admit that I don't see any more.
RE: Agree  
FStubbs : 10/12/2018 8:49 pm : link
In comment 14125593 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
On Odell 100%, he's not the same player he was pre-injury. It could be mental, injuries like that do tend to make you hesitant to let it all fly but he's not earning his paycheck right now.


I got shouted down for saying this in the game thread yesterday. He's not the same player.
I could not agree more with op assessment of Eli today vs prime Eli.  
djm : 10/12/2018 9:15 pm : link
Word for word.

Only thing Iíll add is Eli was at his best when he was throwing a lot of tds and a lot of ints. He was underrated at sliding around in the pocket and we fairly rated as a big game late game assassin. Now he bails out more than twice the amount of times he did before and thereís twice the amount of pressure. When he finally does get hot itís more warm than hot.

He starts these games off so cold now  
djm : 10/12/2018 9:17 pm : link
Thatís such a clear sign of athletic aging. It takes older people longer to warm up and acclimate.

Itís an awful combo of ol issues and qb weaknesses. Eli could very well go somewhere else next year and kick ass. But it isnít happening here.
Some plays against Jax...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/12/2018 9:23 pm : link


This first clip shows him getting ready to blow by the safety. Clearly a safety shouldn't be a matchup problem for OBJ, but he had no chance against OBJ and just grabbed him as OBJ was going to be wide open. I think what this shows is that OBJ's speed caught the safety off guard - he wasn't prepared to have Beckham run right by him.

Important to note that this was considered a marquis matchup going against Jalen Ramsey. Jalen had an official 4.41 40 at the combine. He's considered one of the quicker DB's in the league as well - really an explosive athlete. I've got a couple clips that show OBJ matching up well against him.



In this play you can see that he is unable to fool Ramsey with his first move - Jalen stays true to his responsibility as he has OBJ alone deep left in the end zone. Beckham however is able to get and keep separation from him - Ramsey makes up no ground until OBJ has to cut upfield to try to throw an errant Eli pass.



In this last play OBJ goes deep up the seam against a deep zone coverage. The safety has no chance. What I really see here though is how the ball is overthrown and OBJ has to find another gear to try to get the ball. My eyes see him accelerate again showing true explosion in his effort to catch this would-be TD.

Gonna keep looking for some more examples.

Just looking back I should note that the Giants really don't send Beckham deep much, and when they have, there has usually always been either grabbing on him or such soft coverage at the line with such little time before Eli throws the ball that there hasn't been time for the routes to develop. They have also used several mesh concepts to try and gain separation, I've not included those although OBJ has been open in space on them. Also I didn't include some other zone routes like sail concept where it isn't clear how explosive he is.

I do remember seeing some other plays where I was content that he still had enough speed, even if it might be reduced a bit from where he was in the past, so I'm still looking.
Here's one where he tests his deep speed...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/12/2018 9:37 pm : link
against Chidobe Awuzie, who had an official 4.43 40 at the combine. Watch OBJ (bottom of the screen) who isn't the target go deep on him and quickly gain 3 yds separation.

RE: It's not all on Eli  
Jesse B : 10/12/2018 9:41 pm : link
In comment 14125568 nicky43 said:
Quote:
The receivers couldn't get open in the 2 seconds our o-line gave Eli to find a target. The O-line still can't create holes for our runners. Barkley's good runs were of his own incredible talent. And I was surprised our Defense did so poorly. You can't give up 30 points in the game and I thought our defense was coming together nice.

Yea, Eli missed a few targets and the defense still has tackling problems but I thought we'd do much better this week. The Carolina game made me forget how bad our O-Line is and the Eagles D line is great!



Ther was a point in the game where th e Eagles were starting at the 45. Hard to play defense with zero field position
Those are great dan  
Jerry in DC : 10/12/2018 9:47 pm : link
Thanks for posting them
It's scary that the people in charge  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/12/2018 9:49 pm : link
thought and have said that Eli has "YEARS" left. Incredible, actually.
Here's a nice clip against Houston...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/12/2018 9:49 pm : link
In it he shows the mid-route stutter-step. He isn't the target but I liked how it showed that he can make the move and then burst out of it for separation. He's on the bottom of the screen here.



Sorry for posting so much - just wanted to put some footage out there and see what others have to say. Also helps me get my mind off the loss last night and all the tired other discussions.
Here's a play against CAR...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/12/2018 10:06 pm : link
I like it as an example because although it is zone coverage, he sets up the defender with a nice double-move, like what we've seen from Beckham before. He gets the defender completely turned before biting hard toward the sideline. Lots of separation here.

That's enough for me right now...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/12/2018 10:10 pm : link
again, it's a good question and I don't doubt B in ALB's observations either. He's a better football evaluator than I am. I'm willing to admit he's probably lost something since the injury, but I just think he's still putting lots of tape out there of him having more than enough speed to get open. Is it what he once had? IDK.
RE: Eli's internal clock is messed up  
Sammo85 : 10/12/2018 11:31 pm : link
In comment 14125531 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
He needs a reset, i.e. a new team.


He turns 38 in January and is declining physically. There is no new team. His career is effectively over.
RE: Eli's internal clock is messed up  
giantsFC : 10/12/2018 11:34 pm : link
In comment 14125531 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
He needs a reset, i.e. a new team.


THIS.

He wonít ever be good again for the giants unless he takes a year or two off and comes back if needed in a playoff push for injury.

Or he goes to a different culture.

He can still play at some level iím Sure. Just not w this group of selfish players or in the the biggest sports media coverage in the country.

Dan  
B in ALB : 10/13/2018 12:29 am : link
Great stuff. I contend that against press coverage when Beckham is wedged out of a vertical route, he's struggling to get up field. And some of that has to do with bracket safeties and a C2 zone protection. It's slow developing and won't pan out unless the route is straight vertical on an off down (like we saw against Carolina).

I think the team misses a straight line threat off the line or another medium package that a pass catching TE gives you. It collapses the zone and creates opportunities outside the bubble.

All that said, it's still a chicken and egg scenario. If there is limited protection and your qb wants to release the ball early, all the route packages and talent in the world will likely mean nothing.
Not having Engram  
giantsFC : 10/13/2018 2:20 am : link
Could be a factor.

Though Engram has pint been great either this year and is hurt often.

Beckham hasn't lost his explosion...  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 10/13/2018 7:12 am : link
He legit quit last night. At least that's what it looked like. He looked like he wasn't even trying to get open.
RE: It's scary that the people in charge  
crick n NC : 10/13/2018 8:02 am : link
In comment 14125677 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
thought and have said that Eli has "YEARS" left. Incredible, actually.


Perhaps they were speaking about the physical part of his game. The risk was thinking that he could comeback mentally. Look at it this way, their thinking (even in error) opened the door for Barkley who is a huge get for this team. While Barkley is without a doubt the goods plus some, the Qb's that were taken are yet to be determined.
B  
JonC : 10/13/2018 8:05 am : link
Seeing the same with OB, the explosion isn't all the way back yet. He's had a few seems running YAC and hasn't been able to accelerate past the DBs like before.

Eli showed really good feet moving and climbing up in the pocket when the season began. It caught the eye immediately at the beginning of the season. But, he's turned statue etc.
Good stuff dan  
crick n NC : 10/13/2018 8:13 am : link
With this team watching footage is very tough because the truth is painful with this team, albeit educating.
RE: B  
crick n NC : 10/13/2018 8:24 am : link
In comment 14125870 JonC said:
Quote:
Seeing the same with OB, the explosion isn't all the way back yet. He's had a few seems running YAC and hasn't been able to accelerate past the DBs like before.

Eli showed really good feet moving and climbing up in the pocket when the season began. It caught the eye immediately at the beginning of the season. But, he's turned statue etc.


Jon, I value your opinions, do you think Manning is finished mentally? Moving around in the pocket, while it is a physical action, it has more a mental foundation, as in mentally tough to focus on your targets while feeling where the pressure is and using subtle movements to avoid the defense while delivering the ball.
RE: RE: B  
JonC : 10/13/2018 8:39 am : link
In comment 14125888 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14125870 JonC said:


Quote:


Seeing the same with OB, the explosion isn't all the way back yet. He's had a few seems running YAC and hasn't been able to accelerate past the DBs like before.

Eli showed really good feet moving and climbing up in the pocket when the season began. It caught the eye immediately at the beginning of the season. But, he's turned statue etc.



Jon, I value your opinions, do you think Manning is finished mentally? Moving around in the pocket, while it is a physical action, it has more a mental foundation, as in mentally tough to focus on your targets while feeling where the pressure is and using subtle movements to avoid the defense while delivering the ball.


So far this season it's a game to game proposition for Eli. He looked really good in spurts versus the Panthers and Texans, when the protection was decent and receivers were getting open.

But, he's clearly feeling footsteps and some that aren't really there, and looking like a declining older QB at many other times. Some will say this is a clear sign of an erosion in his mental game.
Thanks  
crick n NC : 10/13/2018 8:48 am : link
Jon
Dan  
Joey in VA : 10/13/2018 9:01 am : link
Good work! To my eyes when he has the ball he's just a hair off. The plays he used to make are ending up short. He just doesn't look as explosive with the ball.
And yet  
joeinpa : 10/13/2018 9:34 am : link
The people who see him every day and have the most to lose, invested 60 mil in guaranteed money to Beckham.

Hard to believe they share the belief that he has lost some explosiveness
RE: And yet  
crick n NC : 10/13/2018 10:12 am : link
In comment 14125988 joeinpa said:
Quote:
The people who see him every day and have the most to lose, invested 60 mil in guaranteed money to Beckham.

Hard to believe they share the belief that he has lost some explosiveness


Don't lose sight of the possibility, a good possibility in my opinion that he will get that back.
RE: And yet  
HomerJones45 : 10/13/2018 10:16 am : link
In comment 14125988 joeinpa said:
Quote:
The people who see him every day and have the most to lose, invested 60 mil in guaranteed money to Beckham.

Hard to believe they share the belief that he has lost some explosiveness
The same organization that has made blunder after blunder. Your blind faith in their abilities is admirable but misplaced.
I agree that he hasn't made any real explosive plays...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/13/2018 10:48 am : link
And I'm going to spend some time (probably next week) watching some of his game from earlier in his career to better see differences.

One thing I notice clearly is that nobody has the explosiveness that Saquon has. He makes everyone look like they're running in mud. In my mind OBJ use to be the same way, but I'm not sure.

I do believe that if he's regressed closer to the norm for WR that it won't be long before we see teams start to take more chances with him in single coverages. I haven't made a count if coverages (and many defenses are too complex with their assignments to me to be clear), but I notice when rewatching the games that if all the teams so far, Dallas seemed to play more single coverages on him than any of our other opponents, although that may have been more about not respecting or deep passing game from what I saw, Dallas not only had more man assignments with a single high safety, but they played a lot more or coverage with LBers dropping into the shirt zone in coverage.

I think when Engram comes back we'll see even more of those looks until we start showing the deep passing game is a real these once again.

Getting Engram back with be a
RE: B  
HomerJones45 : 10/13/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 14125870 JonC said:
Quote:
Seeing the same with OB, the explosion isn't all the way back yet. He's had a few seems running YAC and hasn't been able to accelerate past the DBs like before.

Eli showed really good feet moving and climbing up in the pocket when the season began. It caught the eye immediately at the beginning of the season. But, he's turned statue etc.
When the interior of the line is shit, there is no where to go. He's a right handed passer and his RT has sucked all season. Where do you want him to move? The center is a fill-in and he wasn't that good to begin with, the RG can't pass block and the LG is a rookie. The poor play in the middle hurts Solder too. He's supposed to be able to play his man to the outside because the QB can step up but the Qb can't step up because he's got guys in his grill on a two count. Despite being dubbed Captain Checkdown, he's been sacked 20 times in 6 games. There were 31 all of last season and 21 the entire season before that. It may be hard to believe, but DG's ministrations have made the pass pro situation worse, not better.

If Eli doesn't run much, guess what, he never ran much. He's got 550 yards rushing in his career. It's not what he ever did.

There is nothing wrong with Eli that a little consistent play in the middle, some targets not named ODB who can get open (Engram's return will help as we have no TE at the moment. Ellison sucks and Simonson is a rookie) and a playcaller with some balls can't cure. All this "mental deterioration" stuff is a lot of psychobabble.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/13/2018 11:03 am : link
The Giants are just an easy team to defend right now. Keep safeties deep, jam and bracket Beckham, don't let anything behind the safeties and force Eli to just keep dumping the ball off because he's taking checkdowns almost immediately if his first read isn't there or there's a hint of pressure.

Can we stop with the WR/bubble screens? The play just keeps failing over and over again.

What we have right now is just a recipe for disaster. A poor OL, a QB with no escapability, no confidence, and the inability to push the ball downfield.
RE: RE: B  
ajr2456 : 10/13/2018 11:26 am : link
In comment 14126117 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:


There is nothing wrong with Eli that a little consistent play in the middle, some targets not named ODB who can get open (Engram's return will help as we have no TE at the moment. Ellison sucks and Simonson is a rookie) and a playcaller with some balls can't cure. All this "mental deterioration" stuff is a lot of psychobabble.


You can't be serious man?

It will help, but there is no cure  
JonC : 10/13/2018 11:33 am : link
for aging and decline, the end.
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